Syro Malabar Church Phoenix Arizona

[Mariamkutty]

Of course I am reading them. I am shocked by the opinions and unsupported theories you keep posting as fact!! Perhaps it is time to disregard 99% of them, since like these conspiracy theories you mention above, these opinions that you post are figments of your imagination… you also refuse to provide any evidence other than your opinion.

When I write Church of Scotland, and write the same thing half a dozen times, you say I wrote Church of England. Now if you are reading my posts, I suggest you read them more carefully.

I do not post my comments for you alone. It matters little whether you disregard 99% or even 100% of what I write. My comments are meant for all who take the time to read my posts. I expect no one to believe anything I write, but I want them to consider what I have written and look for more information accordingly from reliable sources if they are sufficiently interested.

A blog is not an academic publication, so there is no need to provide references to everything one writes. Even so I have given plenty of guidance to search for more information.

 

[Mariamkutty]

Here is where your theories fall apart. Which ancient See did the “Patriarch” of Babylon fall under?? The Patriarchate was originally a Catholicate under Antioch! It was NOT the only Catholicate under Antioch. When the Assyrians schismed in the 4thCentury, the Patriarchate re-established a Catholicate to replace the Nestorius-following one. Which Liturgy did this one use? Which Catholicate did the Indian Church have contact with? The Catholicos of the East in schism from Antioch? The Catholicos of the East in Communion with Antioch? The Catholicos of the East which reunited with Rome? The Catholicos of the East which schismed among itself and had it’s own Catholicos-Patriarchate? Which liturgy did each of these use and at which time/decade?

You state above:What are the things “what the RCC considered heretical at the time”??? This is a majorly important question - this is what is cited as the REASON for the schism… Those Churches which schismed DID NOT follow all of what Diamper proclaimed - they continued the non-latinized practices of leavened bread, married clergy, Liturgy without explicit Institution Narrative, etc… THESE are the latinizations that are mentioned to this day, not some nonsense that you mentioned earlier – if these were irradicated, and the Malabar Church restored to it’s authentic Sacred Tradition, they would be considered non-latinized - they have no need to take on the Liturgy of the West Syriacs.

The ancient Christian community in Malabar Coast came in communion with RCC in 1599. Do you know when the schisms happened? Starting from 1836, a good 237 years later, I repeat nearly two and half centuries later, and that too under the guidance of Church of England, and Church of Scotland when India was a British colony ! Now that is the Latin Rite Diocese of Cochin group. Quite by chance the suppression of Portguese Padroado happened at the same time and all the churches were to pass to Papal Congregation of Propaganda Fide Archdiocese at Veropoly. They won the case only by bringing a newly minted Patriarch from ME, who claimed the Roman Catholic diocese in Veropoly had no right to churches built by Portguese Padroado!

As to the non-Catholic group, they had had no problems without any Patriarch from the Middle East as long as the Dutch had control in Malabar Coast, and they lived under the special protection of Dutch. They called for help and felt an absolute need for an ME Patriarch (one group that is) only when the Dutch lost power to the British. Now that is another interesting coincidence.

And all the litigations with regard to church property that went with those schisms?

I interpret these through the political and monetary motives of colonial traders. Now THAT is my personal opinion. There is plenty of evidence all over the place that priests have been motivated by greed for power and material gain in the decisions they make, and the colonial times were riddled with such priests. Some religious orders have been shut down by the pope at some points in history precisely because of that. Once again, I’m NOT implying all priests and all religious orders were like that. One needs to ask why there is so little vocation for monasteries (especially in a country like India) where priests have to live secluded and frugal,simple lives and do simple work to maintain self supporting monasteries. That is a fully Eastern tradition. Monasteries.

 

[Mariamkutty]

Mr SyroMalankara, after reading your posts and those of the others here, I have come to the conclusion that the hair splitting discussions about Liturgy is merely red herring. The real reason for the schisms lie elsewhere.

Anyone who reads through the arguments presented on the three threads here can see that.

So we must end here. Thanks for your (name removed by moderator)ut.

 

[Mariamkutty]

Mr SyroMalankara, I had missed responding to this:

Originally Posted by Mariamkutty: Member pjk123 is even so skilled as to get a discussion closed when HE wants it.

Another conspiracy theory. No one here has control over these boards. The moderator of this forum decides what is vile or obscene enough to be closed. You or another poster must have posted something which was not appropriate - don’t concoct and conspiracy theory for this.

Ref Post # 804

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=289346&page=54

Ref Post # 812

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=289346&page=55

 

[Mariamkutty]

Why would Latin Catholic priests be trained in a Protestant CMS seminary? Which year do you claim these events took place? CMS was not formed until 1799. Also, the Syriac Liturgy of the Assyrians is the SAME as the pre-Diamper Liturgy shared by both groups, yet the Syriac Liturgy used by the Malankara Orthodox, Syriac Orthodox, Syro-Malankara Catholic, and protestantized-version by the Marthomas IS NOT mainly used by the Assyrians, but by the majority Arameans.

I had forgotten to address this as well.

Rev Dr Buchanan came to Malabar Coast in 1806 and met with non-Catholics.

CMS missionaries, who came as a consequence of that visit and his recommendation, trained non-Catholics at their seminary in Kottayam 1816 -1836.

At Synod of Mavelikkara 1836 all official connection was cut between non-Catholics and CMS. A lawsuit for joint seminary followed which non-Catholics won.

CMS College which was started in 1817 left its doors open for all to study. Free education was offered for over forty years, after which only a nominal fee was charged. Syriac was one of the subjects taught.

The Latin Rite Catholic Diocese of Cochin churches in Thrissur, which initiated schism, after Portuguese Padroado was suppressed in 1838, also started with education in Kottayam CMS College after it was started in 1817. The schism and lawsuits would not end for several decades after that. Kottayam was and is considered a mission station by the group. Are you really asking why a Latin Rite Catholic who went on to initiate schism would train in a CMS and British Protestant seminary, before going to England for higher studies and finally to the Middle East to study the Syriac Liturgy and be first consecrated in a Church of England ?

All the schisms and Liturgical developments in Malabar Coast (erstwhile Travancore and Latin Rite Catholics of Diocese of Cochin in Thrissur) happened after the arrival of CMS and completion of joint training for twenty years 1816 - 1836.

I did not mention that the Latin Rite Diocese schismatics who formed a brand new Assyrian Chaldean Church used the same Syriac Liturgy as the non-Catholic Knanayi Christians and other non-Catholic groups in Kottayam. (Syro Malankara Church was after all formed from among them only in 1932.)

Since the Syrian Catholic group in Thrissur used the same Syriac Liturgy that the Thrissur schismatic group of Latin Rite Catholic Diocese of Cochin would use, that is the proof they were Latin Rite Catholics and NOT from the Syrian Catholic group as they are claiming.

*But of course you know all of this. I have written all this at least half a dozen times before. *

 

[SyroMalankara]

I did not mention that the Latin Rite Diocese schismatics who formed a brand new Assyrian Chaldean Church used the same Syriac Liturgy as the non-Catholic Knanayi Christians and other non-Catholic groups in Kottayam. (Syro Malankara Church was after all formed from among them only in 1932.)

The Chaldean Syrian Church in Trisshur prays the Liturgy of Addai and Mari - the same as the Syro-Malabar Church. (East Syriac/Chaldean)

The non-Catholic Knanaya group is in the Syriac Orthodox Church, which shares the Liturgy of St. James with the Malankara Orthodox Church and Syro-Malankara Catholic Church. (West Syriac/Antiochian)

The Marthoma community uses a protestantized form of the Liturgy of St. James. (Anglicanized West Syriac)

Since the Syrian Catholic group in Thrissur used the same Syriac Liturgy that the Thrissur schismatic group of Latin Rite Catholic Diocese of Cochin would use, that is the proof they were Latin Rite Catholics and NOT from the Syrian Catholic group as they are claiming.

How is a non-proven, factually inaccurate statement “proof” of anything?

But of course you know all of this. I have written all this at least half a dozen times before.

One thing we can agree on – you HAVE written this half-a-dozen times. And you have been either: 1)wrong, 2)factually inaccurate, or 3)woefully misinformed each time…

 

[mathewjoseph]

Dear syro malankara
** If any of the words I quoted on major arch bishops, cardinal are not true, let the entire sky fall upon me, let thunder strikes at me, let lightning hits at me.** I think this is enough for you to believe the truth statements. What I have quoted are 100% correct. Next, please clarify my doubts.

Dear syro malankara
I did not get an answer from you. Please provide the truth.

 

[SyroMalankara]

Mathew Joseph,

Please post the entire article, instead of just one line or one statement. One cannot judge the authenticity of a statement without its context.

 

[mathewjoseph]

Mathew Joseph,

Please post the entire article, instead of just one line or one statement. One cannot judge the authenticity of a statement without its context.

Dear syro malankara
I gave you the statements from 3 eminent persons. Then why you are doubting on them? 3 persons on several occassions quoted on the issue. I think these statements are enough for one to make an analysis.

 

[SyroMalankara]

Dear syro malankara
I gave you the statements from 3 eminent persons. Then why you are doubting on them? 3 persons on several occassions quoted on the issue. I think these statements are enough for one to make an analysis.

This is absurd. Of course the context of the statement matters entirely! I do not doubt these eminient leaders - I doubt that the person’s using their words are being fully accurate in their interpretation…

 

[Mariamkutty]

Originally posted by Marimkutty: I did not mention that the Latin Rite Diocese schismatics who formed a brand new Assyrian Chaldean Church used the same Syriac Liturgy as the non-Catholic Knanayi Christians and other non-Catholic groups in Kottayam. (Syro Malankara Church was after all formed from among them only in 1932.)

The Chaldean Syrian Church in Trisshur prays the Liturgy of Addai and Mari - the same as the Syro-Malabar Church. (East Syriac/Chaldean)

The non-Catholic Knanaya group is in the Syriac Orthodox Church, which shares the Liturgy of St. James with the Malankara Orthodox Church and Syro-Malankara Catholic Church. (West Syriac/Antiochian)

The Marthoma community uses a protestantized form of the Liturgy of St. James. (Anglicanized West Syriac)

Mr SyroMalankara, thanks for summing up the Liturgies on Malabar Coast.

**The Latin Rite Diocese of Cochin in Thrissur adopted the Syriac Liturgy of Addai and Mari, when they schismed post 1838, when Portuguese Padroado was suppressed and the Latin Rite churches were handed to Latin Rite Archdiocese of Veropoly created by Papal Congregation of Propaganda Fide . A brand new church was created in the Middle East with the help of Church of England, because the original Chaldean church had by then come in communion with RCC. **

I already mentioned that the Syriac Liturgies of non-Catholics in Malabar Coast (Syriac translation of St James Liturgy and other variations of Liturgies of Church of England and Church of Scotland translated into Syriac; including the Syriac Liturgy of Latin Rite Diocese of Cochin), were developed only after the visit in 1806 of Rev Dr Claudius Buchanan, a Cambridge trained Scottish theologian.. After his visit, Rev Dr Buchanan sent out a call in Britain and British India. CMS missionaries arrived in Kottayam in response to that call. British and other European scholars began to take interest and study the Middle East Syriac Liturgies. Christians in Travancore kingdom of Malabar Coast, and anyone who chose to go there for education, could do the same because of education offered at Kottayam CMS College since 1817, including the language Syriac.

Syro Malankara Church, was formed only in 1932, 126 (one hundred and twenty six only) years after the visit of Rev Dr Claudius Buchanan. Until that point, Syro Malankara Catholics share the history of the non-Catholics that Rev Dr Buchanan visited in 1806. Non-Catholics were known as Jacobites and Marthomites after the first split in their group post 1836.

Only one Syriac Liturgy existed in Malabar Coast at the time of Rev Dr Buchanan’s visit in 1806. It was the Syriac Liturgy of Addai and Mari, purged of allegiance to Patriarch of Babylon. It was used by the ancient Christian community (known as Syrian Catholics, referred to as Christians of St Thomas or St Thomas Christians by European writers who had come under RCC in 1599 at Synod of Diamper and were allocated a separate See of Angamaly, renamed See of Cranganore in 1600. This Syriac Rite See of Cranganore, under Portuguese Padroado, would be suppressed only in 1886, one year before it continued as vicariate of Thrissur.

The Latin Rite Diocese of Cochin was separate from the Syriac Rite See of Cranganore.. The Latin Rite Diocese of Cochin started to enter into schism starting 1838, only when the Latin Rite Portuguese Padroado was suppressed in 1838 and was handed over to Latin Rite Archdiocese of Veropoly created by Papal Congregation of Propaganda Fide, which had first been only a Vicariate Apostolic during the Dutch period 1663 - 1795.

The Latin Rite Diocese of Cochin which schismed would adopt from the Middle East the same Syriac Liturgy (Addai and Mari) that the Syriac Rite See of Cranganore had been following all along. Syriac Rite See of Cranganore, which formed for the ancient Christian community at Synod of Diamper 1599, continued to use their old Syriac Liturgy minus the allegiance to Patriarch of Babylon.

Since the Chaldeans in the Middle East had come in communion with Rome by the time the schismatics of Latin Rite Diocese of Cochin sought them out post 1838, a brand new church was created in the Middle East with the help of Church of England, which consecrated their clergy until a Patriarch from the Middle East was finally installed for the new church. Until then priests from the schismed Latin Rite Diocese of Cochin had an important role to play, like a substitute Patriarch. It is complete distortion of historical facts when the Latin Rite Diocese of Cochin which schismed claim to have been Syrian Rite Catholics.

 

[Mariamkutty]

Originally posted by Mariamkutty: Since the Syrian Catholic group in Thrissur used the same Syriac Liturgy that the Thrissur schismatic group of Latin Rite Catholic Diocese of Cochin would use, that is the proof they were Latin Rite Catholics and NOT from the Syrian Catholic group as they are claiming.

Originally posted by SyroMalankara: How is a non-proven, factually inaccurate statement “proof” of anything?

**It is a FACT that See of Cranganore was the Syriac Rite See set up for the ancient Christian community under Portuguese Padroado at Synod of Diamper in 1599. It is also a FACT that the Catholics of Thrissur who schismed post 1838 belonged to the Latin Rite Diocese of Cochin of Portoguese Padroado. Latin Rite Diocese of Cochin existed from the time of arrival of Portuguese in 1500, when Cochin was first a mission station under Lisbon, later a suffragan diocese under Archdiocese of Goa.

The schismatics have merely created false “history” with sheer force of propaganda, even though it flies in the face of recorded history. Ordinary locals in Thrissur know that Latin Rite Catholics of the diocese of Cochin joined a Middle Eastern church to acquire a Syrian Christian status.

Only those who can fully understand the local Indian culture would be able to grasp why there was a rush by groups for the Syrian Christian identification. Until Rev Dr Claudius Buchanan opened the door with academics and direct contact with the Middle East, it had not been possible, except for those who were jointly trained with Syrian Rite priests of See of Cranganore.**

One thing we can agree on – you HAVE written this half-a-dozen times. And you have been either: 1)wrong, 2)factually inaccurate, or 3)woefully misinformed each time…

There is a 4th possibility Mr SyroMalankara: I’m not buying propaganda, simply because priests may have happened to write it. When Rev Dr Buchanan opened the door for academic work regarding Syriac Liturgies because he wanted to create a proper church for the migrant non-Catholic community in Malabar Coast he visited in 1806, it was misused to create all sorts of propaganda which is being sold as history. When Christianity came to India with Portuguese in 1500, followed by Dutch and British, there was no separation of Church and State. All priests were also politicians, and in this case, colonial traders and those who worked closely with them. After four and a half centuries of colonial influence in Malabar Coast, the tradition has left its mark.

 

[Mariamkutty]

Originally Posted by MathewJoseph: Ask a good historian, he will tell you that bishop of Antioch ruled almost all the bishops in the world in the 1st centuries.

Originally posted by SyroMalankara: What makes you think one historian is ‘good’ compared to another?? And what is this “ruling” other bishops? There is no such phenomenon. Does having a majority of suffragans make the bishop of Antioch superior to Rome - NO! The Ecumenical Councils have always clearly expressed the primacy of Rome, then Alexandria, then Antioch. Later, in the 4 later Ecumenical Councils - commemorated by the Roman and Greek Churches - this was adjusted to Rome, Constantinople, Alexandria, Antioch, and Jerusalem…

The Syro Malankara Catholic Church which claims it schismed in 1653 from communion with Rome, didn’t believe any of this until 1932 ! Out of the three priests who formed the Syro Malankara Church, one belonged to the Patriarch of Antioch faction (BAVA) and two belonged to the bishop (Metran) faction which didn’t have allegiance either to the Pope or Patriarch. The groups had been mired in litigations since 1836, for nearly a century by the time three broke away to seek communion with Rome and form the Syro Malankara Church. It was done at the encouragement of Carmelites.

Yet the same Syro Malankara Church now insists that the ancient community of native Christians who came in communion with RCC in 1599 at Synod of Diamper, schismed fifty four years later. They insist it schismed, even though there is no evidence of it. The story was made up only in the nineteenth century by those who wanted to call themselves Christians of St Thomas although they didn’t belong to the separate Syriac Rite See of Cranganore created for the ancient community under Portuguese Padroado at Synod of Diamper 1599.

 

[potohar]

so ,syro malanakara rite members are not syrian christians.also jacobites and orthodox church members are also not syrian christian.what about syro malabar south of thrissur?

what about natives of vallam(kaladi)?do the sero malabar in vallam also schismatic ?

 

[SyroMalankara]

Mariamkutty’s theory is that only Trisshurian Syro-Malabars are “true native St. Thomas Christians” and that the rest of us - the other Syro-Malabar eparchies, the entire Syro-Malankara Catholic Church, the entire Malankara Orthodox Church, and the entire Syriac Orthodox Church are phonies pretending to be St. Thomas Christians but were originally Latins.

Another problem with her theory is that all of the St. Thomas Christians accept that one of the 7 original Churches that St. Thomas founded is Nilakkal… where is Nilakkal located? No where near Trisshur, in fact it is deep inside Pathanamthitta. stthoma.com/nilakkal.php

Another is Niranam, where is NIranam located? stthoma.com/niranam.php
Not near Trisshur, but close to Kotttayam.

Are these people who were converted by St. Thomas himself, not “St. Thomas Christians”? This is Mariamkutty’s theory.

It defies logic.

 

[Mariamkutty]

Mr SyroMalankara, search for the truth. It will set you free. When I started to post here, I didn’t know that my search for truth would take me to places I never knew existed.

My search has enriched me. It has left me disillusioned about certain accounts written by priests that gets passed off as history. It has also set me free to seek the real truth at all times. For now my curiosity is satisfied because the jigsaw puzzle I was working on has fallen in place.

I happen to belong to the group that is convinced Church and State, religion and politics, should remain separate, for the welfare of all. Lay people should be empowered to think for themselves and test the spirits of religious leaders to find out if they are really from God. There are wolves in shepherds’ clothing. Jesus warned His followers about that when He preached in public. “By their fruits shall ye known them, by the fruits which they bear; By their fruits shall ye know them, not the garments they wear.!” (Whether the garments are Latinized or genuine Syriac of the nineteenth century!)

 

[SyroMalankara]

I happen to belong to the group that is convinced Church and State, religion and politics, should remain separate, for the welfare of all. Lay people should be empowered to think for themselves and test the spirits of religious leaders to find out if they are really from God. There are wolves in shepherds’ clothing. Jesus warned His followers about that when He preached in public. “By their fruits shall ye known them, by the fruits which they bear; By their fruits shall ye know them, not the garments they wear.!” (Whether the garments are Latinized or genuine Syriac of the nineteenth century!)

Your first sentence sounds like the line from the Catholic-politicians-who-are-Catholic-in-name-only School, where they use Catholicism to get votes, but go after every agenda opposed to Catholic teaching… We don’t live in isolated bubbles, neither religion nor politics are practiced in a vacuum. Faith must inform your worldview, you cannot say you have faith and then practice politics as if your faith should be kept in the closet… that is not Catholicism nor Christianity in action.

 

[Mariamkutty]

Mariamkutty’s theory is that only Trisshurian Syro-Malabars are “true native St. Thomas Christians” and that the rest of us - the other Syro-Malabar eparchies, the entire Syro-Malankara Catholic Church, the entire Malankara Orthodox Church, and the entire Syriac Orthodox Church are phonies pretending to be St. Thomas Christians but were originally Latins.

Another problem with her theory is that all of the St. Thomas Christians accept that one of the 7 original Churches that St. Thomas founded is Nilakkal… where is Nilakkal located? No where near Trisshur, in fact it is deep inside Pathanamthitta.

Another is Niranam, where is NIranam located?
Not near Trisshur, but close to Kotttayam.

Are these people who were converted by St. Thomas himself, not “St. Thomas Christians”? This is Mariamkutty’s theory.

It defies logic.

One needs to trace the history of Christianity in Malabar Coast (Kerala) in different periods:

1. From the arrival of Portuguese in 1500 to Synod of Diamper 1599. The areas on Malabar Coast which were under their control. The missionaries who worked on the Malabar Coast. Franciscans, Dominicans, Augustinians (under whose watch Synod of Diamper took place), Jesuits (worked with the native St Thomas Christians).
2. From Synod of Diamper to capture of Portuguese trade bases on Malabar Coast starting 1658, culminating in capture of Cochin in 1663.
3. The Dutch period 1658 - 1795. The areas along Malabar Coast which came under their control directly from the Portuguese and also newly conquered territories.
4. Work of Carmelites on Malabar Coast who came in 1657, shortly before Dutch captured Cochin. Two native religious orders were formed on their watch - Travancore Order of Carmelites Discaled (TOCD), which changed its name to CMI; and Franciscan Clarist Congregation (FCC). Both started as Latin Rite orders but slowly transformed themselves into Syrian Rite orders.
5. The British Raj starting 1795 - 1947. British (English East India Company) had a trade post in Anjego, Travancore, starting 1685. Beginning with the visit of Rev Dr Claudius Buchanan, many European Protestant groups worked on Malabar Coast.

***The term Jacobite Syrians began to be used for non-Catholics of Malabar Coast only after the visit of Rev Dr Claudius Buchanan in 1806. The non-Catholics he visited were a migrant community and NOT the native St Thomas Christians who had been in communion with RCC since 1599. ***

The story about the schism of native St Thomas Christians, who supposed lived in the Portuguese colony at Mattancherry in 1653, did not exist at the time of his visit.

**Those who have agreed to the seven and half churches tradition of Apostle Thomas also are particular to point out that Christianity had died out in all places by the time Portuguese arrived in 1500 and there were two ancient churches left - Kodungallur (Cranganore) and Palayur (Palur), both in present Thrissur District. Malayatoor (in Ernakulam District) which belongs to the ancient tradition is hardly mentioned because Apostle Thomas did not establish a church there, although he visited it, because ? he probably was martyred there (and not at Mylapore).
**

Jacobite Syrian Christians about whom Rev Dr Claudius Buchanan wrote in 1806 and the ancient native St Thomas Christians, with whom Jesuits worked about whom the Jesuits wrote, from 1542 - 1772 (when the Jesuit Order was suppressed), are two different communities on Malabar Coast.

It is not really clear how the two communities came to be taken as the same because no one had ever written about the Jacobite Syrian Christians before Rev Dr Claudius Buchanan in 1806, and it is clear that they are a migrant community. By the time Rev Dr Buchanan met them in 1806, Malabar Coast had already had two European colonial traders, each holding sway for one and a half centuries each: Portuguese from 1500 -1663, and Dutch from 1658 - 1795.

CMS missionaries arrived after the report of Rev Dr Buchanan, who was keen to establish a proper church for them and educate them. Apart from missionaries in Kottayam and Alappuzha, CMS missionaries also set up a mission station in Cochin. Rev Thomas Dawson was the first, after whose departure in 1818, missionaries from Kottayam visited Cochin regularly and conducted services in St Francis Church (used by Dutch Calvinists during their time in Cochin). Rev Samuel Risdale in 1824 speeded up the mission work, and he worked among a mixed population consisting of Indian, Portuguese, Dutch, and English. **In 1836 **he had opened six outstations namely, Kunnamkulam, Pazhani, Kandanadu, Thrippunithara, Kuttatodu and Chalakkudi. During the year, Risdale returned home leaving the Rev. Henry Harley in charge, who **erected a Church at Trichur in 1840 and the next year set up the headquarters of the Cochin Mission there. Harley did most distinguished work in Cochin State for more than 20 years. **

*Lutheran Basel Mission worked intensely in Malabar District of North Kerala starting 1834, (and converted thousands to non-Latin version of Christianity) when British government gave permission for foreign missionaries to work on their territories. Plenty of work was done by European Protestant missionaries on Malabar Coast since the visit of Rev Dr Buchanan in 1806 before official churches claiming allegiance to Patriarchs in the Middle East were created in the nineteenth century. *

 

[Mariamkutty]

Your first sentence sounds like the line from the Catholic-politicians-who-are-Catholic-in-name-only School, where they use Catholicism to get votes, but go after every agenda opposed to Catholic teaching… We don’t live in isolated bubbles, neither religion nor politics are practiced in a vacuum. Faith must inform your worldview, you cannot say you have faith and then practice politics as if your faith should be kept in the closet… that is not Catholicism nor Christianity in action.

Mr SyroMalankara, my statement was in defense of keeping Church and State separate. Much evil has been done in the name of religion by some religious leaders who held worldly power at the same time. This happened in times when monarchs ruled kingdoms and religious leaders worked closely with them or in many cases were drawn from the ruling class. The lines separating the ruling class and priests were fluid. And history shows that rigid feudalistic, heirarchical societies were created. They were dismantled in most parts of the world only at the end of Second World War.

A secular democracy which allows freedom of religion for all is the best form of government. A politician can always be voted out of power if he misuses his power. A true democracy allows for criticism of political leaders at all times. Ordinary people can influence the laws that are made in the land and can intervene to overturn unjust laws. But such freedom does not exist among religious leaders. By its very nature, religion has a set of rules that must be adhered to and only priests can change them. They can never be questioned. This opens the door to passivity on the part of followers and misuse of power by religious leaders. That is not to say that is how religions were meant to be. It was definitely not how Jesus Christ meant it to be. But fallible priests and religious leaders can make it that way.

Take for example how you wanted to contact my parish priest because I wrote aspects of history of Christianity in Kerala which did not fit your idea of what is REAL history! And don’t forgot there has been such militant activism here by your supporters who demand that all dioceses in Kerala should submit to their particular demands of what dress should be worn and what sort of practice should be adopted by any church. Such authoritarian behaviour is more common among religious leaders. Hence they should not be allowed to hold political office in a multi-religious society. What does a priest have to do with worldly politics and worldly money making businesses anyway?

In an earlier post regarding the same, in response to your claim that there was no difference between church and state and that the separation was a Protestant idea, I showed you how Jesus Christ Himself taught that one should give what belonged to Caesar to Caesar and what belonged to God to God. He said that He was not a king of this world. Christians are expected to be in this world, but not of this world.

So your statement: “Catholic-politicians-who-are-Catholic-in-name-only School” could be modified as: Some-Catholic-priests-who-are-priests-in-name-only-but-in-reality-are-power-hungry-politicians-and-money-greedy-businessmen School.

Are you expecting Catholic politicians to implement the Canon Law? What if Muslim politicians want to implement Shariah Law and Hindu politicians want to implement Manu Smrithi?

Why is there so much objection to President Obama’s Health Care Plan from conservative Christians? What kind of Christianity is informing such a world view that stands in opposition to providing health care to more socially disadvantaged Americans?

Are you trying to sell the theory that one needs to be a Catholic priest in order to be a good politician? Or that Catholic priests as a rule should be telling politicians what to do? You don’t think it is sufficient for Catholic priests/Christian leaders to help Catholics/Christians in their charge to form a conscience in keeping with Christian values, and then leave each one to take responsibility for their actions in public office without being controlled by clergy?

The Vatican and the Pope has set a good example in this regard. They inform the faithful and the general public, including political leaders about their moral stand on issues without meddling in the politics of any country. But according to you, that would not be Catholicism or Christianity in action.

Only Islam was established as a theocracy. Judaism has long ceased to be a theocracy. Their prophets, priests, rulers etc had different functions after the age of Kings was past. I can’t really recall that at any time Jews had the equivalent of Mohammad, a Prophet, military commander, judge and religious leader, all rolled into one.

 

[Mariamkutty]

Mr SyroMalankara, I find it quite annoying when Christian groups in Kerala who benefited most from the selfless missionaries belonging to CMS, LMS, Basel Mission etc are unwilling to give credit where credit is due, simply because they chose to seek out Patriarchs from the Middle East in the nineteenth century, after they had first got all the help they needed from European Protestant missionaries. CMS is said to have trained 150 non-Catholic clergy in the twenty years that they worked with the group Rev Dr Buchanan had met in 1806, in addition to providing free education in their college and setting up schools, press etc. That many well trained clergy is more than enough to set up seminaries for a new church and keep it going without any further help from outside.

European Protestant Missionaries did not come as part of any colonial trader team, ruler or monarch. (They were at times even at loggerheads with the British rulers who wanted a smooth running colony and no more.) They were dedicated to providing education for all and making locals independent, capable of managing their own affairs as quickly as possible. That is priceless service in a country which is under colonial rule, and natives have a second class citizen status in their own land. It is not by accident that erstwhile Travancore, where European Protestant missionaries (CMS and LMS) worked most also had the highest literacy rate when India became independent in 1947. The literacy rate where Lutheran Basel Mission worked in Malabar District of North Kerala was also very high. Lutherans are not Latin Rite Catholics. So it was easy for them to integrate into newly formed dioceses of the Jacobite churches in Malabar Coast when Basel Mission was shut down at the start of WW I, even if it would later (1932) come in communion with RCC.