Syro Malabar Church Phoenix Arizona

[Mariamkutty]

**I wish to emphasize that I have the greatest respect for REAL scholarship. And when I write, that I do not take something to be true simply because a priest scholar wrote it, it does not mean that I reject scholarship by a priest, it merely means that I judge scholarship by a priest exactly as I would judge scholarship by anyone else. I would not consider scholarship by a priest infallible simply because it is done by a priest. In this case, in all my posts, I am discussing only the history of Christianity in Malabar Coast (Kerala since 1956). I am NOT discussing faith and doctrine of any church.
**
**What I am calling for repeatedly is to look at history of Christianity in Malabar Coast through the lens of its secular history and the politics of colonial traders - Portguese, Dutch and British - and the newly converted community of local Christians, mixed race Christians, associated with colonial traders in Malabar Coast (known as Kerala since 1956). The immense impact of European Protestants since the arrival of Rev Dr Claudius Buchanan in 1806 and the thorough British and Lutheran education that followed explains the unique characteristic of the churches formed in the nineteenth and twentieth century.
**
I wish to clarify that ALL my posts here have to do with writings in this regard which contradicts the real history of Christianity in Kerala as recorded before the arrival of Dutch and British.

**I do hope that NO priest scholar, who is NOT involved in the specific topic I am discussing, takes my comments as being directed at them. The history of Christianity in Malabar Coast since 1500 is intricately connected to colonial trade - Portuguese, Dutch and British. European colonial traders and administers also roped in locals to have their work done and to trade with them. **The history of Christianity in Malabar Coast might have remained uncomplicated as in other parts of India if it had not been for the presence of an ancient community of Christians who refused to come in communion with RCC for a whole century and when they did they came on their own terms, insisting on retaining their identity, their Syriac Liturgy and their churches. The desire to retain their identity has nothing to racism or caste feelings. It has to do with them being a unique ancient community which was proud of its Christian heritage. It should not come as a surprise that new converts later devised means to borrow that identity and heritage. But when a simultaneous attempt is made to rob the authentic community of their heritage, alarm must be raised and history needs to be intensely explored as to how it all started.

 

[Mariamkutty]

You really should refrain from comments such as “New Age” Churches, etc… those are outrageous accusation against the Orthodox and Eastern Catholic Churches. “New Age” is modern day neo-gnosticism, nothing at all of the practices of these ancient Churches.

Why am I not surprised that you, ONCE AGAIN, distort with malicious intent what I write?

I was referring only to churches created in Malabar Coast (remember the name Kerala was coined only in 1956, when the new state was formed), in the princely states of Travancore (the Jacobite churches, which changed names later) and Cochin (the schismatic of Latin Rite Catholics of the Diocese of Cochin who formed the Chaldean Syrian Church) in the nineteenth and twentieth centuries.

The Jacobite churches created in Malabar Coast are in communion with various bigger churches. I already made a mention of that in my post. See of Cranganore created for the ancient Christian community under Archdiocese of Goa as part of Portuguese Padroado, had been part of the Assyro-Chaldean church in the Middle East until Synod of Diamper 1599, and was a church within a church from 1599, until the separate Syro Malabar Church was formed beginning with vicariates in 1887. So while Syro Malabar Church has many more members, then the original See of Cranganore, it was not a new church. It was a separation and expansion of an already existing church. (The Third Order Carmelites Discalced (TCOD), founded at Mannanam, Kottayam in 1855, renamed CMI in 1958, and its women counterpart CMC founded in 1866, were involved in intense missionary work, as was the Third Order Franciscan Clarist Congregation (FCC), founded at Changanasserry in 1888.)

The same cannot be said of the other churches created in Malabar Coast in the nineteenth and twentieth century. They were formed in the nineteenth and twentieth centuries and sought communion with well established churches.

**I’m NOT referring to the ancient churches of the Middle East.
**

 

[Mariamkutty]

***Mr SyroMalankara, thanks to the way you, Mr LukaThomas and pjk123 have been posting here and interacting with me, I have lost my naivity regarding the colonial trader political history of Malabar Coast from 1500 - 1947. It has encouraged me to look for many missing pieces. I must inform you I have found almost all of them. I just need to deepen my knowledge. I know you are annoyed that I am not posting the verifiable sources of information I found. I do not wish to enter into a prolonged discussion on them here.

So thanks to you, Mr LukaThomas and pjk123, you did me a favour even without meaning to. It is a relief to know what I am actually dealing with, even if what I can now see doesn’t make for a very pretty picture.

I must take my leave now, and leave it to the intellectually curious to follow up on all the points I have raised in my comments.

---

 

[Mariamkutty]

Dr. Joseph J. Palackal is an eminent scholar of musicology, hymnody, chant, bhajan, Syriac music, Chaldean ecclesial music, Malayalam, and ethnomusicology, as well as Syro-Malabar and Oriental hymns and chants. He is also a lecturer, professor and earned his Ph.D. at CUNY. He was born in Pallippuram, Alappuzha, Kerala. He is also a member of the Syro-Malabar Church.

Mr SyroMalankara, I don’t know if you mean the same Fr Joseph Palackal as the one depicted in this picture published in the Tablet (link below). He is a CMI priest, the Third Order of Carmelites Discalced founded in 1855 by Fr Kuriakose Elias, renamed CMI in 1958. It is well known that they are very many great scholars in the congregation and all are supported by the Vatican in a special way because the order was founded by Carmelites of the Papal Congregation of Propaganda Fide. It was the first Catholic order founded in Kottayam to match the educational success of CMS missionaries in Kottayam. Many priests are sent to European and American universities for higher education (in keeping with the Roman Catholic tradition of educating priests to the maximum, and in Kerala this serves as a powerful incentive to become priests), and many are “missionaries” in Western countries, working in parishes which have no local priests.

thetablet.org/05032008/stories26.html

 

[Mariamkutty]

***Mr SyroMalankara

If the picture I posted of a Fr Joseph Palackal CMI is not the same Dr Joseph J Palackal you referred to, then it is sheer coincidence that they have the same name.

I understand the movie was conceived and produced by one Dr Joseph J Palackal, who is now resident in New York. ***

 

[Mariamkutty]

***To all the Indians here who have been going ballistic about the nature of my criticism, doubts and questions:

1. Would you go similarly ballistic if it were an Indian Hindu, leave alone a Brahmin, expressing the same doubts and expressing criticism about claims by some Christian groups? Hindus in Kerala (Malabar Coast) do not concern themselves with claims made by Christian groups only because it does not concern them in any way. Since Hindu rulers worked closely with European colonial traders for four and a half centuries, they have a good relationship with the descendants of that era who are careful to continue to maintain close political ties even now.
2. Did you know that in the US, although there are 25% Roman Catholics, many of them in extremely powerful positions, they still have to take a lot of criticism about Roman Catholicism? None of them are going ballistic and denying anyone the right to exercise their freedom of expression.
3. In the UK, where Roman Catholicism is several centuries older than the Church of England, Catholics have to take criticism from non-Catholics in their stride.

Maybe there is something to be learned about dealing with criticism, although in my case I’m here merely discussing colonial history of Malabar Coast and its impact on the history of Christianity in Kerala. ***

 

[Mariamkutty]

Dr. Joseph J. Palackal is an eminent scholar of musicology, hymnody, chant, bhajan, Syriac music, Chaldean ecclesial music, Malayalam, and ethnomusicology, as well as Syro-Malabar and Oriental hymns and chants. He is also a lecturer, professor and earned his Ph.D. at CUNY. He was born in Pallippuram, Alappuzha, Kerala. He is also a member of the Syro-Malabar Church.

I agree Dr Joseph Palackel is a great musician. He has been studying music with the same scholarly intensity as Syriac and Syriac Liturgies were studied by the non-Catholic group at the CMS seminary and afterwards. He seems to have done some great stuff in the field of religious music.

The only problem I have is when the recent music traditions created by various priests specializing in the field, including borrowed traditions from the Middle East since 1806, is portrayed as ancient Indian traditions always practiced by the small ancient Christian community who lived rather simple lives. The projection of current knowledge and present innovation in the field of religious music into the past is what I consider poor scholarship as far as history is concerned. As you can see I have a serious problem with wishful history being peddled as truth by anyone.

 

[Mariamkutty]

***For the present time I have had enough of discussing history of Christianity on Malabar Coast (Kerala since 1956). I will consider my personal mission fulfilled if even one person has been fired up enough to explore the history of Christianity on Malabar Coast in greater depth prior to the conquest of Dutch in 1658 and then compare it to the writing about history of Christianity since the arrival of Rev Dr Claudius Buchanan in 1806. ***

 

[Mariamkutty]

You really should refrain from comments such as “New Age” Churches, etc… those are outrageous accusation against the Orthodox and Eastern Catholic Churches. “New Age” is modern day neo-gnosticism, nothing at all of the practices of these ancient Churches.

Mr SyroMalankara, I noticed that I had not clarified what I meant by New Age with regard to churches formed in the nineteenth and twentieth century in Malabar Coast (Kerala since 1956). I meant New Age in terms of time and way of putting schools of thought and philosophy together to form a new church, not in terms of the belief and the schools of theology.

I also emphasized that the churches in Malabar Coast sought out communion with larger churches and are not like many one -pastor Christian denominations in the US.

These are what I know to be facts, not my opinions or interpretations:

Before the arrival of Rev Dr Claudius Buchanan 1806, there was only one non-Catholic group in Malabar Coast.

This non-Catholic group could not have existed during the Portuguese period.

There was a long non-Catholic Dutch period 1658 - 1795 on the Malabar Coast between the Portuguese period and the arrival of Rev Dr Claudius Buchanan after British took control. The Dutch not only took over all the Portuguese trade centers but also expanded their territory on Malabar Coast, with new settlements.

There were only two groups of Christians during Portuguese period 1500 - 1663 - the ancient native community of St Thomas Christians and new Latin Rite converts and the Portuguese Catholics.

(The ancient native community of St Thomas Christians were part of the Assyro-Chaldean Church in the Middle East. They had their own churches, their own priests and even their own bishops ordained in the Middle East until 1597. They were without a bishop of their own only between 1597 - 1599, that too only because the Portuguese had stopped any bishop from coming and they had control of all ports along the Indian coastline. The British and Dutch had not even formed their East India companies until 1600. After that they came in communion with RCC and was under a Latin Rite bishop of the Archdiocese of Goa, in a separate See of Angamaly - Cranganore created for them. They remained as part of that See until 1886. And then in 1887, got a vicariate as the first step in forming a separate church. In summary the ancient native community was a part of a Middle Eastern church until 1597 and in a separate See of Cranganore in full communion with RCC since 1599.)

During the 137 years of Dutch period (1658 - 1795) the non-Catholic group had had no bishop or Patriarch from the Middle East.

Then there was joint training with CMS for twenty years 1816 - 1836, when 150 clergy were trained for the ONE non-Catholic group.

The break with CMS was decided at Synod of Mavelikkara in 1836. There would have been no need for a break with CMS if there had been no formal communion with CMS.

All the churches were created after that. When there was a single group, they were known as Jacobites. The different names were adopted later. In depth Syriac scholarship and thorough study of Syriac Liturgies happened during the joint training with CMS, which was continued even after the break. Thus each new church has slightly different Syriac Liturgies.

Considering the St Thomas Christians in See of Cranganore follow a different Syriac Liturgy to the Syrica Liturgy adopted by the churches formed by the single non-Catholic group since 1836, after joint training with CMS for twenty years and in-depth scholarship of Syriac Liturgies in the Middle East, how could they possibly claim any connection with the original St Thomas Christians of See of Cranganore?

How come there is a non-Patriarch faction among the non-Catholic group, which claims to the original church from which all others broke away to form separate churches?

So here let me repeat, that I meant New Age only in terms of how these churches were created with scholarship in the nineteenth and twentieth century, NOT in terms of the content of their belief. In other words, the churches are not ancient, but of recent origin. They sought communion with ancient churches. But the fact the original group, the Metran faction, is not under any Patriarch from the Middle East is proof that it is not originally part of the Middle Eastern church.

***While I am merely encouraging thorough scholarship regarding the origin of the churches in Malabar Coast, a scholarship that ought to include secular history of European colonial trade period on Malabar Coast 1500 - 1947, and be no less thorough than the study of Syriac and Syriac Liturgies undertaken by the non-Catholic group since 1806 before their new churches were formed, you see a political agenda. Strange indeed ! I thought I made it clear that I am all for separation of church and state, precisely because I think church and worldly politics makes for a very bad mix. The Apostles of Jesus Christ organized Christian communities without getting involved in worldly politics.

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[SyroMalankara]

To those using loose terminology to define Church communities, such as “Metran faction”, should realize that the term has been used throughout ecclesial history in the Cochin-Travancore region for various groups.

One group which called itself “Metran faction” came into Communion with the Anglicans and other protestants, changed its theology, and started calling itself the Malankara Marthoma Syrian Church of Malabar - short form, Marthoma church.

Those who remained non-Protestant and separated from the Pope were called Jacobite.

Later, because there was a dispute within this Jacobite group regarding what the scope of the Patriarch of Antioch’s authority is, they divided in hierarchy (not in faith). Both groups acknowledge the Patriarch’s spiritual authority and commemorate him in their Diptychs.

The group which the Patriarch of Antioch recognizes is called the Malankara Syrian Orthodox Church (aka Jacobite, a slang term which should be avoided), they recognize the Patriarch’s Spiritual and Temporal Authority.

The other group, which is not accepted as legitimate by the Patriarch, but still remembers him in their Diptychs and recognizes his Spiritual authority is called the Malankara Orthodox Syrian Church (aka Indian or Malankara Orthodox Church). - This group is referred to as “Metran faction” also.

The reason why “Metran faction” is used so commonly is because Metran is the Malayalam term for “bishop”, “Bava” is the Syriac/Malayalam term to refer to a Patriarch.

Whenever any bishop separated from the Patriarch, that bishop and his followers were called “Metran faction”.

Both the Syrian Orthodox Church and the Malankara Orthodox Church are within the Oriental Orthodox Church.

Proof that the Malankara Orthodox Church remembers the Patriarch of Antioch in their prayers and recognizes his spiritual authority. From the Malankara Orthodox Holy Qurbana:

http://www.icon.org.in/icon_publ_q1.icon?method=getQurbana&id=q14:

FIRST THUBDEN

1. For the Living Spiritual Fathers.
   **(Hierarchy)
   (Of the three Patriarchs remembered the first is the Patriarch of Antioch Moran Mar Ignatius, the second is the Catholicose of the East Moron Mar Baselios, the third is Gregorios of Jerusalem, though only Bishop, he is designated as Patriarch on a special privilege) (Prayer is based on Hebrew 13:18-19) **

Deacon: Barekmor:Ennum ee ayushkalathum nammude adhyakshanmarayirunnu, naalubhagangalilumulla daivathinte visudha sabhakale meyichu bharikkunna sudhimanmarum ,bahumanappettavarum bhagyavanmarumayi daivathal nilanirthappettuporunna nammude parthriyarkeesanmaraya Aboon Mar Ignathiosinu ventiyum Aboon Mar Baseliosinu ventiyum , Aboon Mar Gregoriosinu ventiyum , Nammude Melppattakkaran Aboon Mar… ventiyum Sathya viswasikalaya seshamulla sakala Episcopanmarku ventiyum , Mahathum bhayankaravum , parisudhavumaya ee samayathu daivamaya karthavinodu naam apekshichu prarthikkanam.

Deacon:Barekmor, Let us pray and beseech the Lord our God at this great and solemn and sacred moment for all the spiritual fathers, our rulers, who are appointed over us, this day and in this life to shepherd and govern the Holy Churches of God in the four quarters of the earth; our holy and revered and blessed Patriarchs ,our father Mar Ignatius, and our father Mar Baselios, and our father Mar Gregorious and our Bishop, our father Mar …who are being upheld by God, along with all the other orthodox bishops and spiritual Fathers ,truly faithful; Let us beseech the Lord

 

[SyroMalankara]

Mr SyroMalankara, I noticed that I had not clarified what I meant by New Age with regard to churches formed in the nineteenth and twentieth century in Malabar Coast (Kerala since 1956). I meant New Age in terms of time and way of putting schools of thought and philosophy together to form a new church, not in terms of the belief and the schools of theology.

I also emphasized that the churches in Malabar Coast sought out communion with larger churches and are not like many one -pastor Christian denominations in the US.

These are what I know to be facts, not my opinions or interpretations:

Before the arrival of Rev Dr Claudius Buchanan 1806, there was only one non-Catholic group in Malabar Coast.

(The ancient native community of St Thomas Christians were part of the Assyro-Chaldean Church in the Middle East. They had their own churches, their own priests and even their own bishops ordained in the Middle East until 1597.

Considering the St Thomas Christians in See of Cranganore follow a different Syriac Liturgy to the Syrica Liturgy adopted by the churches formed by the single non-Catholic group since 1836, after joint training with CMS for twenty years and in-depth scholarship of Syriac Liturgies in the Middle East, how could they possibly claim any connection with the original St Thomas Christians of See of Cranganore?

How do you determine that the title “St. Thomas Christian” belongs only to those who use the Liturgy of Cranganore?
One could easily claim that since the original native community was part of the Assyro-Chaldean Church in the MidEast, and those who adopted the West Syriac liturgy united to another Church in the MidEast, that they are the authentic St. Thomas Christians - as opposed to those who were under Portuguese Latin hierarchs.

Of course this is an unfair assessment, since both are of the St. Thomas Christian Community.

During the 137 years of Dutch period (1658 - 1795) the non-Catholic group had had no bishop or Patriarch from the Middle East.

This is not according to anyone, but yourself. According to everyone else, history, and Tradition, the non-Catholic group accepted West Syrian Bishop Mar Gregorios of Jerusalem, who was united to the Patriarch of Antioch.

The break with CMS was decided at Synod of Mavelikkara in 1836. There would have been no need for a break with CMS if there had been no formal communion with CMS.

This is like claiming, since Anglicans, Orthodox, and Assyrians attend Graduate and Doctoral Seminary in Rome, that there is some sort of “formal communion”. There is not, this view is a gross misunderstanding of the term ‘Communion’ and what of the purpose of Seminary. They study there and return to their own churches.

Thus each new church has slightly different Syriac Liturgies.

No they do not. The Malankara Orthodox, Syriac Orthodox and Syro-Malankara Catholic Liturgy is EXACTLY the same. No difference.

The Marthoma Liturgy is protestantized and reformed.

 

[Mariamkutty]

To those using loose terminology to define Church communities, such as “Metran faction”, should realize that the term has been used throughout ecclesial history in the Cochin-Travancore region for various groups.

One group which called itself “Metran faction” came into Communion with the Anglicans and other protestants, changed its theology, and started calling itself the Malankara Marthoma Syrian Church of Malabar - short form, Marthoma church.

Those who remained non-Protestant and separated from the Pope were called Jacobite.

Later, because there was a dispute within this Jacobite group regarding what the scope of the Patriarch of Antioch’s authority is, they divided in hierarchy (not in faith). Both groups acknowledge the Patriarch’s spiritual authority and commemorate him in their Diptychs.

The group which the Patriarch of Antioch recognizes is called the Malankara Syrian Orthodox Church (aka Jacobite, a slang term which should be avoided), they recognize the Patriarch’s Spiritual and Temporal Authority.

The other group, which is not accepted as legitimate by the Patriarch, but still remembers him in their Diptychs and recognizes his Spiritual authority is called the Malankara Orthodox Syrian Church (aka Indian or Malankara Orthodox Church). - This group is referred to as “Metran faction” also.

The reason why “Metran faction” is used so commonly is because Metran is the Malayalam term for “bishop”, “Bava” is the Syriac/Malayalam term to refer to a Patriarch.

Whenever any bishop separated from the Patriarch, that bishop and his followers were called “Metran faction”.

Both the Syrian Orthodox Church and the Malankara Orthodox Church are within the Oriental Orthodox Church.

Proof that the Malankara Orthodox Church remembers the Patriarch of Antioch in their prayers and recognizes his spiritual authority. From the Malankara Orthodox Holy Qurbana:

During the Dutch period 1658 - 1795, Dutch Reformed clergy were in charge of ALL non - Catholics.

At the visit of Rev Dr Claudius Buchanan in 1806, eleven years after the Dutch were ousted, there was only ONE non-Catholic group. Rev Dr Buchanan referred to them as Syrians, and they gave themselves as a MIGRANT group NOT associated with the Apostle Thomas tradition, and having had nothing to do with the Roman Catholic church at ANY time. The oral understanding was that the ONE non-Catholic group would be helped to form a proper church that would be in communion with Church of England. The deal was to be a win-win one. The British needed clergy for their vast Indian Empire, still in its infancy. A local church in communion with CoE could ordain their clergy and provide missionaries for British India. Hence the training with CMS to FORM a proper church.

The formal break with CMS in 1836, after 150 clergy had been trained by CMS, was to form a proper church that would NOT be in communion with Church of England has had been originally envisaged.

How often does an Orthodox Church in the Middle East send its clergy to be trained in a Protestant seminary? The CMS was a European Protestant group and for twenty years CMS trained 150 clergy for the non-Catholic group. The non-Catholic group had no seminary of their own until they won the law suit and took over the CMS seminary.

Why did this non-Catholic group not send their clergy to be trained in a Middle Eastern seminary when the Dutch were in control on the Malabar Coast from 1658 - 1795? After all the Dutch allowed even a Carmelite to attend to the spiritual needs of Latin Rite Catholics in their employment and living within their areas of control. Why was there no Middle Eastern Patriarch in the picture during the Dutch period? Why did accept the offer of Rev Dr Claudius Buchanan to be trained by CMS? Would not a church, if it was as ancient as it claims, not have had a proper seminary of its own locally? Or least means to train clergy in the Middle East, if it was really a part of an ancient Middle Eastern church?

It was after Synod of Mavelikkara in 1836, that the identity of the church was forged and the word Jacobite was used for the ONE non-Catholic group. The original ONE non-Catholic group had no communion with any Patriarch in the Middle East. They call themselves the Metran faction. Then one of them went off to ME and came back to form the Patriarch faction. One of them joined the Anglican Communion and became the Jacobite Reformed faction, renamed Mar Thoma Church. Then in 1932, one from the Patriarch faction and two from the Metran faction joined communion with RCC and formed the Syro Malankara Church. Some time later all churches from the original non-Catholic group which trained with CMS for twenty years 1816 - 1836, began to give itself variations of the name Malankara. Some dropped the Jacobite and others didn’t.

Jacobite is NOT a derogatory term. That was the name the non-Catholic church was known by until recently. Some churches still retain the name. Malankara and Mar Thoma are the new words to give the churches a different identity. In this case a rose by any other name is not a rose. The change of name is meant to make it a different flower and give it a different history, to link it to an ancient local tradition, namely the St Thomas tradition.

 

[Mariamkutty]

How do you determine that the title “St. Thomas Christian” belongs only to those who use the Liturgy of Cranganore?
One could easily claim that since the original native community was part of the Assyro-Chaldean Church in the MidEast, and those who adopted the West Syriac liturgy united to another Church in the MidEast, that they are the authentic St. Thomas Christians - as opposed to those who were under Portuguese Latin hierarchs.

Of course this is an unfair assessment, since both are of the St. Thomas Christian Community.

This is not according to anyone, but yourself. According to everyone else, history, and Tradition, the non-Catholic group accepted West Syrian Bishop Mar Gregorios of Jerusalem, who was united to the Patriarch of Antioch.

I’m sure the readers of my comments are bored to death reading the same thing.

But here it is again for the 200th time perhaps.

The ancient NATIVE community of St Thomas came in communion with RCC at Synod Diamper in 1599 and REMAINED in communion ever since. They were given a separate See first called Angamaly, then shifted to Cranganore one year later. They remained in See of Cranganore under Archdiocese of Goa, until See of Cranganore was suppressed in 1886, in the first step towards forming a separate church.

The fiction about Coonan Cross Oath was invented in the nineteenth century. Mattancherry, Cochin had been a Portuguese colony since 1500 and only Latin Rite Catholics, which included many mixed race Portuguese lived there. Among the dedicated Catholic missionaries had been Franciscans, Dominincans, Augustinians and Jesuits. (Only Jesuits worked separately with St Thomas Christians in the places where they lived.) By the time of the supposed Coonan Cross Oath, Portuguese, who had a policy of mixed marriage, had been there for 153 years! The Dutch took all the Portuguese settlements in 1663, but they did not banish natives and mixed race Portuguese. They were integrated into the Dutch regime and work force.

The St Thomas Christians had absolutely no reason to break with RCC because they had their own churches, their own priests and their own Syriac Liturgy. The Portuguese had granted them a separate See of Cranganore.

The fiction of Coonan Cross Oath allowed two groups to claim St Thomas Christian identity: Latin Rite Catholics and non-Catholics trained by CMS.

Carmelites of Papal Congregation of Propaganda Fide had not been in Malabar Coast while the Portuguese Padroado worked with native St Thomas Christians and brought them in communion with RCC in 1599. St Thomas Christians were in See of Cranganore which was under Archdiocese of Goa.

When Portuguese Padroado was suppressed in 1838, only churches belonging to the Latin Rite Diocese of Cochin (different from See of Cranganore) passed to Latin Rite Archdiocese of Veropoly. They schismed only because at that stage it was not possible to switch from Latin Rite to Syrian Rite in Thrissur. Carmelites made arrangement for it by founding the local Third Order of Carmelites Discalced (TOCD), renamed CMI, in Mannanam, Kottayam, in order to prevent schisms of Latin Rite catholics going in search of Middle East Patriarchs and Syriac Liturgies to identify with the local St Thomas Christian community who were in See of Cranganore until 1886, before the formation of vicariate of Thrissur.

Why do those who accepted the West Syriac Liturgy in the nineteenth century NOT count as authentic St Thomas Christians? Because the authentic St Thomas Christians were the ones who had used the Syriac Liturgy of Addai and Mari from the beginning and had continued to use it even after they came in communion with RCC in 1599. The authentic St Thomas Christians did not adopt another Syriac Liturgy at any time.

If a non-Catholic group in Surat, Gujarat (where the Dutch had a trade base) had been trained by CMS in their seminary for twenty years, where they had learned Syriac and about Syriac Liturgies in the Middle East and then adopted the West Syriac Liturgy in the nineteenth century and had sought communion with a Patriarch in the Middle East, would that make them St Thomas Christians? Why not?

The question that has remained unanswered is:

What were the non-Catholics from the supposed time of Coonan Cross Oath in 1653 doing until the arrival of Rev Dr Claudius Buchanan in 1806, ONE HUNDRED AND FIFTY FIVE YEARS later? Why did they need twenty years of training with CMS if they were part of an ancient church in the Middle East? What did this group do during the Dutch period 1658 - 1795, for ONE HUNDRED AND THIRTY EIGHT YEARS?

 

[Mariamkutty]

If someone from the Latin Rite Catholics in Goa had gone to the Middle East in the nineteenth century after first training in CMS College, and Church of North India seminary, and then further training in England, to be consecrated in the Middle East by Church of England, adopting Syriac Liturgy of Addai and Mari, would that make them St Thomas Christians? Why not?

The Latin Rite Catholics of Diocese of Cochin who formed a new church in the nineteenth century using Syriac Liturgy of Addai and Mari is exactly like that. They have nothing to do with local St Thomas traditions. They are a migrant group who came to Thrissur along with the king from Cochin, who had been under Portuguese for 163 years!

Without the active support of Church of England who trained and consecrated the clergy who would form the new church in the Middle East, there would no Chaldean Syrian Church in Thrissur. The original Chaldean church was already in full communion with RCC when the Latin Rite Catholics of Diocese of Cochin sought them out in the nineteenth century.

Well informed locals in Thrissur know that Chaldean Syrian Church is the former Latin Rite church.

All the new church groups have a press of their own (the CMS press was established in 1812 and the CMS worked also in Thrissur among non-Catholics from 1808) and publish profusely in the tradition of European Protestants.

 

[Mariamkutty]

This is not according to anyone, but yourself. According to everyone else, history, and Tradition, the non-Catholic group accepted West Syrian Bishop Mar Gregorios of Jerusalem, who was united to the Patriarch of Antioch.

Sure the non-Catholic group accepted some Patriarch of the other in the NINETEENTH century AFTER joint training with CMS for twenty years, in which 150 of their clergy was trained in Syriac and academic study of Syriac Liturgies in the highest and best of British traditions. They had the opportunity to continue studies at the secular CMS college established in 1817, which offered FREE education for all for over forty years, and afterwards charged only a nominal fee. The college had British principals till 1942.

At the time of visit of Rev Dr Claudius Buchanan in 1806 however the non-Catholic had NO affiliation with any Patriarch in the Middle East. At the Synod of Mavelikkara, the non-Catholic group formed only one original Metran faction which does not submit to any Patriarch in the Middle East. It is just like any Episcopal church in organization , only it adopted the Syriac Liturgy and beliefs of the Jacobite church in the Middle East. The Patriarch faction and Reformed faction were split from the original group.

Originally posted by SyroMalankara: This is like claiming, since Anglicans, Orthodox, and Assyrians attend Graduate and Doctoral Seminary in Rome, that there is some sort of “formal communion”. There is not, this view is a gross misunderstanding of the term ‘Communion’ and what of the purpose of Seminary. They study there and return to their own churches.

I am not sure how often Anglicans, Orthodox and Assyrians attend Graduate and Doctoral Seminary in Rome. I doubt however that these churches are dependent on the Doctoral Seminary in Rome for anything. They can function perfectly well without sending anyone to the Graduate and Doctoral Seminary in Rome. But comparing that to the non-Catholic group on Malabar Coast (Kerala since 1956) who received training in CMS seminary from 1816 - 1836 is a bit of a stretch. The non-Catholics in Malabar Coast in 1806 had NO seminary of their own. They were not going for “higher studies” as in your comparison. Besides, no Anglican, Orthodox, or Assyrian going to a Doctoral Seminary in Rome, then files a lawsuit to get possession of the Doctoral Seminary of Rome. That is what the non-Catholics on Malabar Coast did. They filed a lawsuit in 1836 to get possession of the CMS seminary and won the case because the British government wanted to support them. Travancore was then a princely state under British Raj, and the British Resident had a big say in everything that happened in Travancore.

What do you make of my suggestion that these non-Catholics were actually Dutch Reformed, who needed to form a church of their own when the Dutch left? And the Dutch requested the help of Rev Dr Claudius Buchanan to help? Some of the non-Catholics are as you say Jewish Christians. We know there were plenty of Jewish Christians in Holland and they could easily have been migrants to Malabar Coast for trade reasons. Jews after all are known to have gone to different countries and the Jewish Synagogue in Mattancherry, Cochin is proof they came to Malabar Coast. In addition to the more recent community of European Jews, there had also been an ancient community of Jews in Malabar Coast, whom Rev Dr Claudius Buchanan referred to as “Black Jews.”

The idea that the non-Catholic group was Dutch Reformed and Jewish Christians from Europe makes perfect sense, in the way they never looked for a Patriarch from the Middle East when the Dutch were there for over 130 years! And of course they wanted help to form a proper church after the Dutch left. The clergy of the Dutch reformed had after all been around for over 130 years, and they had been encouraged to do missionary work, especially among Latin Rite Catholics, in the sense of European Reformation.

**

Originally posted by SyroMalankara

: No they do not. The Malankara Orthodox, Syriac Orthodox and Syro-Malankara Catholic Liturgy is EXACTLY the same. No difference.

The Marthoma Liturgy is protestantized and reformed.**

I stand corrected that all non-Catholics use the same BASIC West Syriac Liturgy that they had adopted during the twenty years of training with CMS, when they were only ONE group.

But I wonder how the Jacobite group that formed a new church, Syro Malankara Catholic Church, could use the same as the non-Catholic group. You already mentioned in an earlier post that the Syro Malankara Catholic liturgy was long in the making. It had to be because it started out as a non-Catholic Liturgy.

The Reformed Jacobite, Mar Thoma Church, has more Church of England influence, while the original Jacobite group has more Church of Scotland influence.

 

[pjk123]

What is the authenticity of syrian christians in thrissur district?what can they claim?the authentic ancient syrian christians(Nasrani Mappila - title given by Maharajah of Travancore) of Travancore have copper plates and many other remnants(like nasrani menorah) they carried out from Nilackal to new regions like kanjirappilli etc to verify their claim.Tharavad Houses dating 900 years are standing tall in many parts of Travancore.(not including churches).just that We are giving respect to those thrissurian syrian christians does not mean we buy their claim of authenticity.
We Have serious doubts about this places paravoor,kodungallur,chavakkad,palayoor,kunnamkulam,pavaratti etc which were colonie of colonizers and mixed breed is what We can easily think of.moreover ,arabic blood is proved in calicut,ponnani,chavakkad etc.
What is the Tradition of Proud Travancore Nasrani’s?Those who immigrated to travancore claims about angamaly-kuravilangadu migration.And Those who Fled Thrissur& malabar are for sure settled in parts of travancore, mostly in western areas where claudius buchchanan would have helped them.
What CLAIM chavakkad syrian claimants can make?NOTHING! Original Syrian christians left thrissur country way back in 17th century.the few who were latin rite catholics who claims syrian lineage now wants to question Authentic Ancient Syrian Christian Travancore Nasranis out of jealousy,inferiority complex.

We have not buyed your claims.You have to prove you are ancient.Why not join kottapuram latin diocese?We in Travancore have no such issue with latin catholics who are minority in number(except kollam).

The History You invented is out of serious inferiority complex.thrissur syrians are latin rite catholics who act as syrian.there are very few syrian christian families there(You can count them in fingers).The remaining latin rite families claims the same family name of thrissur suriyanis to claim Syrian ancestory.
Dirty Line Must be washed in Public.Truth Must Come out.This is the sour truth.

 

[Mariamkutty]

What is the authenticity of syrian christians in thrissur district?what can they claim?the authentic ancient syrian christians(Nasrani Mappila - title given by Maharajah of Travancore) of Travancore have copper plates and many other remnants(like nasrani menorah) they carried out from Nilackal to new regions like kanjirappilli etc to verify their claim.Tharavad Houses dating 900 years are standing tall in many parts of Travancore.(not including churches).just that We are giving respect to those thrissurian syrian christians does not mean we buy their claim of authenticity.
We Have serious doubts about this places paravoor,kodungallur,chavakkad,palayoor,kunnamkulam,pavaratti etc which were colonie of colonizers and mixed breed is what We can easily think of.moreover ,arabic blood is proved in calicut,ponnani,chavakkad etc.
What is the Tradition of Proud Travancore Nasrani’s?Those who immigrated to travancore claims about angamaly-kuravilangadu migration.And Those who Fled Thrissur& malabar are for sure settled in parts of travancore, mostly in western areas where claudius buchchanan would have helped them.
What CLAIM chavakkad syrian claimants can make?NOTHING! Original Syrian christians left thrissur country way back in 17th century.the few who were latin rite catholics who claims syrian lineage now wants to question Authentic Ancient Syrian Christian Travancore Nasranis out of jealousy,inferiority complex.

We have not buyed your claims.You have to prove you are ancient.Why not join kottapuram latin diocese?We in Travancore have no such issue with latin catholics who are minority in number(except kollam).

The History You invented is out of serious inferiority complex.thrissur syrians are latin rite catholics who act as syrian.there are very few syrian christian families there(You can count them in fingers).The remaining latin rite families claims the same family name of thrissur suriyanis to claim Syrian ancestory.
Dirty Line Must be washed in Public.Truth Must Come out.This is the sour truth.

Since you have written this several times, let me clarify:

There is no history of migrations from Thrissur. There is only history of migrations TO Thrissur in connection with Dutch settlement of 1693 to Kunnamkulam and the king of Cochin coming with some families, who are Latin Rite Catholics of Cochin. The segregated settlement in Kunnamkulam are non-Catholics who came in 1693. The Latin Rite Catholics belonging to Diocese of Cochin schismed in 1838 when the churches were to be handed to Latin Rite Veropoly.

See of Cranganore happens to be in Thrissur District. Now I expect any day to read the propaganda that Cranganore (Kodungallur) is in Kottayam. The name Malankara was invented in the nineteenth century with that intention to erase local traditions.

How come your stories of St Thomas traditions can’t stand without this fiction about migrations from Thrissur District to the south, although history has recorded only migrations TO Thrissur in the Dutch period? Thrissur District Syrian Catholics do not need fiction to support their ancient traditions. They always had their own churches and priests and their Syriac Liturgies. Using propaganda of migrations to create antiquity is not the Thrissurian tradition.

Third Order Carmelites Discalced (since 1958 known as CMI) founded in Mannanam, Kottayam in 1855 and its women counterpart CMC founded in 1866, did a lot to prevent schisms in Kottayam district, which was the center of non-Catholic academics by CMS missionaries. They did it by promoting Syrian Liturgy in Catholic churches.

So you clearly seem to have got your information mixed up.

I am not washing dirty linen in public, merely clearing up facts in history. So far the world has heard the history of Christianity as per Kottayam. I simply want to encourage people to look further back in history. Kottayam became a center of Christian influence only after the arrival of British in 1806. Maybe the world doesn’t know that. Let it be known that propagandists are trying to cover base by inventing this theory of migrations, which never took place. The story of Coonan Cross Oath was likewise invented in the nineteenth century.

The St Thomas Christians of Thrissur District belong to the See of Cranganore. They do not have copper plates because they did not come as traders from outside. They are natives of Malabar Coast. You are the one who needs to verify if it is mixed Portuguese and Dutch who are falsely claiming to be St Thomas Christians. There is not a single person on Malabar Coast with a Portuguese or Dutch name after 300 years! The theory of migrations fits perfectly with only that group.

This will be my last post. I am bored to death writing the same stuff. I have written enough for people to search for more information if they are sufficiently interested.

 

[pjk123]

wrong story told here.there is no migration claimed by most travancoreans.thrissur syrian christians are the matter of doubt.latin rite christians claiming syrian christian heritage?don’t even write your fictions again.I suspect the infuriated latin rite chavakkad christians are really cooking up stories.
It is almost sure that latin christians and so called syrians have no difference in chavakkad or any part of thrissur.your fictions cannot be subscribed by Us.

We believe the Latin catholics of kodungallur,chavakkad,palayoor are cooking up stories against authentic ancient syrian christians of travancore .I must say - that You the Latin catholics must return to your kottapuram kodungallur diocese.portugese blood and arabic blood cannot be confused with Authentic Travancore Nasrani.It is high time these firangi’s must be assimilated into latin rite in Kerala.these people are so infuriated inside syro malabar church that they now even dare to claim that they are authentic syrian christians!WTH?how can the latin catholics who don’t even have a proper history tell us what We have to do?

Syro malabar church must separate Travancore Catholics from these Latin catholics who work for Latin rite ,standing in Syro Malabar Rite out of this church.They have no history.I visited few places.all stories ,no essence.These (latin)people are using the St.Thomas tradition to make up their stories.It is a well known fact that these latin catholics are not welcomed in Travancore at all.
Travancore(and Malabar) Syro Malabar Catholics must work together to isolate this fiction writer(s) who cannot trace their history even for 100 years.
Latin Catholics of Thrissur diocese(Especially chavakkad fisherman folks) who are standing with syro malabar church Please come back to Mother Church and Rite (Which is Latin Rite in kerala)instead of sticking in none of your business Thoma Sleeha’s Suriyani Katholicca Sabha.It will free us ,the Travancore Nasranis in many ways.these people are NOT WELCOMED in Syro Malabar Church.No Doubt.

 

[Mariamkutty]

I personally think it would be a good idea to reconstitute the 1887 vicariate of Thrissur, which was the continuation of See of Cranganore, which includes the eleven ancient churches given to Ernakulam diocese in 1896, and form the Church of Cranganore/Kodungallur.

That will solve all the conflicts between archdioceses, and vicariate of Thrissur can have its identity back. Thrissur District really has no need to take all the propaganda that is being pedalled around the world, this nonsense theory of migrations etc.

 

[Mariamkutty]

Travancore(and Malabar) Syro Malabar Catholics must work together to isolate this fiction writer(s) who cannot trace their history even for 100 years.

Is that a threat? Good you posted it on this international American Catholic forum. I am sure you are aware that in India Christians are not particularly popular these days. The fact that you consider it necessary to issue a threat because I have a different take on the history of Christianity in Kerala based on what I know from local traditions and what I have read, somehow portrays you as an Indian Christian, in a very bad light.

Do you practice a Christianity that uses threats with people who do not agree with you? You have had no qualms about insulting me and all St Thomas Christians belonging to Syro Malabar Catholic Church of 1887 Vicariate of Thrissur and their traditions on this forum. You seem to even consider it your right. Why?