Syro Malabar girl marry Marthomite guy with out converting! PLEASE ANSWER!

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Why did they wish to have a committee to study the course of reform if they were not inclined to it? If they are comfortable with the Antiocan liturgy as perfect to their tradition of St. Thomas Christians it is absurd to appoint a committee of such.
Pope Paul VI studied contraception, he went against the opinions of the so-called scholars and restated the Traditional position. Studies are no proof of anything, except that the Synod wishes to study.
It is a known fact that Pulikkottu Mar Dionysius (Mar Thoma 10) and Punnathra Mar Dionysius (Mar Thoma 11 - consecrated in 1817 Oct 19) were interested in restoring the ancient custom of St. Thomas Christians by purging the unnecessary teachings got in by Roman and Antiocan connection.
It seems they found that much of the ancient practices were necessary and not gotten in by Romans and Antiochians, but were the real practices of the Indian Church.
There was a meeting convened by Malankara church at Mavelikkara with attendance of 40 priests, 700 representatives from various parishes on 3rd December 1818. Rev. Joseph Fenn was invited to deliver a speech there. He pointed out many errors including the praying to Mother Mary.
Who in the blue moon is Rev. Fenn and who cares about his opinion? The man was a minister in the low-church wing of the Anglican church. Another wing within his own church prayed to the Virgin Mary and the Saints and for the deceased - why is he spouting his opinion as fact in Kerala when the majority of Anglicans in England do those actions?
If Malankara Church & Mar Thoma 11 were not inclined to it to study further why did they went ahead with the committee ( Palakkunnathu Abraham Malpan, Kaithayil Gheevarghese Malpan, Eruthikkal Markose Kathanar, Adangappurathu Joseph Kathanar were among the committee) even after Anglican speach.
Perhaps because the Anglican presented his opinion as fact, and the Malankara Church wanted to study it further - it seems so outrageous even to me, perhaps the Malankara Church wanted to know if what the Rev. was presenting was in fact true.
It should be noted that the modification of Thaksa was done by the committee under the supervision of Mar Thoma 11.
Which specific modification? and which were accepted and approved? Which were rejected? Why was Abraham Malpan then the only one of a handful to leave the Malankara Church?
He feared that Anglicans are going to take over the Malankara Church by force as happened with Portuguese rule.
Was he wrong to think so?
Hence he convened the Mavelikkara Synod in 1836 to decide to declare that Malankara church is under Antiocan church against the tradition of St. Thomas Christians as independent church.
He wasn’t the only one who thought so, all the bishops agreed.
Your argument “they stayed put” is right with Antiocan doctrines. But also they subjugated themselves to Antioch. From my side it was also backing from the reformation process. If he was not for it why he kept the committee working? And it why it took 11 years to decide against?
As stated above - the Rev.'s outrageous statement needed study.
Once the Cheppattu Mar Dionysius decided against reformation and decided for subjugation of Malankara Church to Antioch, it was necessary for those who valued reformation independence and customs of St. Thomas Christians to find alternatives.
Yet not one bishop went with them.
It is worth noting here that Cheppttu Mar Dionysius was against the supremacy of the Antioch in his early years, as evident from his opposition to Mar Athanasios Abda-el-Mesiu (Antiocan Bishop) who tried to claim the church to Antioch by showing the “Sthathicon” (Letter of Authority) from Patriarch of Antioch. Cheppattu Mar Dionysius had to seek the help of British resident to his help in exiling Mar Athanasios.
Supremacy and spiritual authority are not the same thing. The Marthoma church does not follow the Thaksa or faith of the independent Malankara Orthodox Church, nor is it in communion with the Oriental Orthodox Communion. It is united to Anglicans and other protestants however.
 
2 Timothy 3:16-17 “All scripture [is] given by inspiration of God, and [is] profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:”

“That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.”

So it is acceptable to look into scriptures if you are not sure or dispute of the doctrines, you can correct them by referring and matching with scriptures.
And you end up with a game of my view versus your view, nothing is solved, you’ve misused the Holy Scriptures, and created division.

Clearly that verse does NOT say that Scripture is final or alone, only that it is “profitable”. The Church must convene and decide the proper interpretation of Scripture, not an individual with an agenda going on his or her own to do whatever they interpret.
There is nowhere in scripture it is written that you should always confess to the priest and not to Jesus then only your sins will be forgiven.
Where in Scripture does Jesus ever say, teach your followers to confess directly to me and they are forgiven? No where.
But it is personal choice to do or not to.
That is precisely the Anglican way: “All may, none must, some should” - unfortunately, that leads to “none do, all can’t, few shall”.
 
Not to burst your bubble, but Mr. N. M Mathew is a member of the Marthoma church and is not a scholar - his writings are questionable at best, and supportive propaganda at worst. The man does not even separate fact from his personal opinion, blending everything together to present his personal view as reality - unfortunately this way of writing only effects those who already support his views, and does nothing for serious scholarship
Isn’t it easy to discredit it that way? I do not agree with you. References to Synod Minutes cannot be ignored that easily.
Have you noticed the obvious change in the reference? The authentic Qurbono states “Mary, who have thee birth and John who baptized thee, shall be intercessors on our behalf, be merciful to us O Lord!”. What does the Marthoma version say?
The intercession part is omitted according to the reformation principles.
Not sure what you mean, which saints? What about remembering them today, not “at the time of the resurrection”?
It is the song of Virgin Mary that we recite during worship – Ref: St.Luke: 1:46-55.
All saints – They are remembered each time in Holy Qurbana and we pray to remember us too along with them.
Marthoma churches are often named after cities, does this mean you are honoring the township? or that the naming of parishes have nothing to do with honoring saints?
Yes you are right they do have churches with biblical names of places. Still they have churches named after Saints also. I don’t think everyone will agree with your opinion of naming of parishes have nothing to do with honoring Saints.
Only if these preservation attempts were authentic, but it has been proven to be an Anglican creation.
Ample of write ups are already there in this forum for anyone to check and decide.
How far do you take this? Did the marthoma “reformers” also re-interpret and re-review the disagreement between Peter and Paul, the Councils of Nicea and Constantinople as well?
What I have written is clear. There is no ambiguity in it. Don’t try to pull me into controversy brother.
 
Chaldean Catholics do not believe in Nestorianism, since the Church has already condemned it.
What about the Assyrian Church of the East?

nestorian.org/is_the_theology_of_the_church_.html

“The Antiochene partisans at Nisibis vigorously promoted their Christological position, using the terminology familiar to them, that is, with the very terminology anathematized by the Ephesene synod and by the partisans of Cyril. **Among them Nestorius was venerated **as a staunch defender of Antio¬chene orthodoxy and a martyr to the pride and arrogance of Cyril of Alexandria.”
So now even Nestorius’ belief and practice on Saints is rejected in the so-called " “Nestorian” Indian Churches? This is illogical. The ancient Indian Church believed in intercession of saints and the Blessed Mother, there is really no way around it. Most of the most ancient Churches in Kerala are even called “Marth Mariam”, I think it is obvious.
That is the certainly logical. The claim of St. Thomas Christians was that they are independent in practices and administration under their Jaathikku Karthavian (Malankara Moopen). All those Bishops from Middle East were accepted with due respect being from the sister Churches. They never interfered in Malankara Nasranees customs. Hence there was no record of any conflicts with them. They might have been catering to the needs of the Nestorian migrant communities in Malankara. Even the Portughese bishops were accepted same way. But they did dirty politics.

All problems and divisions came after Portuguese only. They tried to obliterate the records and practices of ancient St. Thomas Christians, which very well known fact. But the evidences of the ancient practices were preserved in the Minutes of Udaymperoor Synod itself.

But I would say it needed further study.
So are you conceding that the Indian Church truly did venerate icons, etc -
Don’t jump into such conclusions – In ancient times their customs were similar to Nestorian customs. They never used images or statues.

We can understand the statues and images used as the objects of remembrance and the difference of misuse of those statues and images in the form veneration.

When you **bow down **to those statues or images and pray to it as if the spirit of the person is present in those then it is beyond limits of scripture and can be called idolatry. We believe being Christians we should stay away from such activities showing stark difference of us from the pagan customs.
is your position that Abraham Malpan was following Hezekiah’s footsteps?
You are right. 👍
 
If so, how do you respond to those who wish to “cleanse” further by stripping the altar completely, removing curtains, priests vestments, crosses and everything else;
We both know that it is an invalid question. Don’t get to the extremes for the sake of arguments – That wouldn’t help – I think you are certainly intelligent and rational soul to know the difference. Are we worshipping/venerating the objects on the Altar?

(Hebrew 8:5 “Who serve unto the example and shadow of heavenly things, as Moses was admonished of God when he was about to make the tabernacle: for, See, saith he, that thou make all things according to the pattern shewed to thee in the mount.”)

Refer Hebrew 8:23, 24 - there also is mentioned that they were the patterns of the things in Heaven.
and how do you reconcile Moses actions of creating images of earthly creatures with the command forbidding such creations? Perhaps God truly does allow the creation of such objects, but not for adoration, but only veneration.
Images of earthly creatures were not made for worship or veneration. The Tabernacle, the arc of covenant and the rest were created only to remind them of what are in heaven, and not to worship them or to venerate them. The worship of Israel was directed toward the Mercy Seat between the Cherubim.
Adoration is due to God alone,
You are right.
veneration is given to saints because of God acting in them.
I can see your point.
The Israelites were worshiping the image AS God - very big difference!
It is said in (2 Kings 18:4) “He removed the high places, and brake the images, and cut down the groves, and brake in pieces the brasen serpent that Moses had made: for unto those days the children of Israel did burn incense to it: and he called it Nehushtan.”

It never explicitly says they worshiped it – it was known as Nehushtan not as Jehovah unlike the image of golden calf made by Aaron.

*(Exodus 32:4-5 “And he received [them] at their hand, and fashioned it with a graving tool, after he had made it a molten calf: and they said, These [be] thy gods, O Israel, which brought thee up out of the land of Egypt.

And when Aaron saw [it], he built an altar before it; and Aaron made proclamation, and said, Tomorrow [is] a feast to the LORD.”)*

So the act of **burning incense to it **can be the act of veneration – Interestingly King Hezekiah did not issue a decree to limit the act only veneration from the level of worship, but he destroyed it leaving no room for worship or even veneration.

Since the practice was from the Moses’ time it is hard to believe Moses, Joshua and Samuel etc have allowed it to be worshipped as God, thus breaking the law of God. It must have been only an object of veneration.

So we can conclude King Hezekiah had destroyed Nehushtan (It was shadow/symbol of Christ) which was an object of veneration among Israelites’ worship.

So it is up to you to examine your ways in front of the Lord and in the light of Holy Scripture.

Mar Thoma Church is not for such kind of veneration of any images of saints.
And I refer you to the “Receptionist Theory” taught in Marthoma church as proof that Marthoma church does not believe what it says in it’s own Thaksa. The Marthoma church, in fact, rejects that the priest is offering the sacrifice of Christ Himself to the Father in the Holy Qurbono; instead offering “the sacrifice of praise”.
If you have the Marthoma Thaksa – does it quote Jesus’ words?

(Luke 22:19-20) And he took bread, and gave thanks, and brake it, and gave unto them, saying, This is my body which is given for you: this do in remembrance of me. Likewise also the cup after supper, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood, which is shed for you.”

Does the priest then invoke Holy Spirit to sanctify bread and wine to be the body and the blood of Jesus Christ?

Does the priest say that this broken body and spilt blood of Jesus Christ at Calvary is given for the redemption of our sins and receive them with thanks?

So do you think it is not the sacrificial body and blood of Jesus that was offered to God in Calvary?

If that is the described as sacrifice of praise, then will it be not be the body of Jesus Christ and His Blood of the New Testament?
 
You do not, but many in your church do, I would even say the majority deny it. How do you reconcile this?
You are right. I have come across with certain Mar Thomites who held adifferent view about Virgin Mary due to ignorance. I understand that it is due to an extreme protestant/Pentecostal influence in them.

Some Mar Thomites even think that Mar Thoma Church is a Protestant church supporting your view. I certainly try to educate them with correct views that Mar Thoma Church is a reformed Orthodox Church - reformed according to biblical principles and their ancient St. Thomas customs.
And you end up with a game of my view versus your view, nothing is solved, you’ve misused the Holy Scriptures, and created division.

Clearly that verse does NOT say that Scripture is final or alone, only that it is “profitable”. The Church must convene and decide the proper interpretation of Scripture, not an individual with an agenda going on his or her own to do whatever they interpret.
I am sure I will not be able to solve anything or make you come my way. I sincerely pray for the Holy Spirit’s intervention in uniting the churches in Christ not in futile arguments and fights over dogmas and customs.

Your accusations are not right. Creating divisions is not my call. I have not misused the Scriptures here. Prove it where I have misused it?

What is wrong in quoting the scriptures and highlighting certain aspect of it?. I do not expect anyone to accept them because I said it, but to accept them if only Holy Spirit convince them so that it is right.

I am sure all our works and intentions will be judged by the Lord.

We believe in the authority of scriptures in the matters of dispute. It seems you are not. If you have traditions also for your support, you have to verify them against the contradiction with the Holy Scripture, that is what I feel.
Where in Scripture does Jesus ever say, teach your followers to confess directly to me and they are forgiven? No where.
It is surprising to have such a question from you after all your study of bible and Christianity.

Please tell me do you believe Jesus cannot forgive our sins if we repent and pray directly to him?

If you believe He cannot, then my advise will be that it is time that you have to seriously re-examine your beliefs.

God Bless you. 🙂
 
Leaving out the political and religious hijackings happened to St. Thomas and doctrinal differences of the various denomination, do you find and recognise the appostolic lineage of Mar Thoma Church from my posts? I asked this because it may help the person who posted the original querry.

Should I ask aren’t we one in Christ?
Mr EagleWatch, I failed to notice this post you addressed to me. Although I am finished with posting on this topic (my difficulty in keeping away notwithstanding because I couldn’t resist the temptation to respond to any post that was in response to my comment), I wish to address your question.

To your "Aren’t we all one in Christ? " My answer is an emphatic YES. Personally I think that every genuine Christian, who shares the Christian faith as in the Acts of Apostles of the New Testament, as in the ecumenical Nicean Creed of 341, (many centuries before Protestantism was ever conceived) no matter to which Christian denomination they belong, is one in Christ. But only Jesus Christ can judge who is one with Him because He alone can look into the hearts and minds of human beings. He has said, “Not all who call me Lord, Lord, will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only those who do the will of My Father.” So let us leave judgment in the hands of Jesus Christ.

As to the Jacobite Reformed Church you belong to, renamed Mar Thoma Church, and its connection to the Apostle Thomas tradition of the natives of Malabar Coast, is a different matter. I suggest you do a search of all my posts on this forum, because I have written way too much already, and do not want to bore you or others anymore.

The secular history of Malabar Coast and its Portuguese and Dutch settlements is vital to understanding the history of Christianity in present Kerala before the arrival of British Rev Claudius Buchanan and CMS missionaries (Lutheran Basel Mission Society worked with CMS but based in Malabar District of North Kerala until it was shut down at the beginning of World War I ) in the nineteenth century. It would be an eye opener to find out how VOC (Dutch United East Company) organized Dutch Reformed Church in their other colonies like Ceylon (Sri Lanka) and Indonesia with their capital in Batavia (now Jakarta), because it stands to reason they would have done the same in Malabar Coast, where they were based for over 130 years. Find out what the organization of Scottish Episcopal Church and Church of Scotland (both of which has much in common with Dutch Calvinists and Dutch Reformed) and the churches established in Malabar Coast in nineteenth/twentieth century have in common. CMS, the “low” Anglicans trained non-Catholics on Malabar Coast for twenty years and taught them Syriac and about Syriac Liturgies in the Middle East as Rev Dr Claudius Buchanan envisaged. Two from the non-Catholic group had been educated at Madras Christian College established by Scottish missionaries in Madras. One of them would go on to head the formation of the Mar Thoma Church. Rev Dr Claudius Buchanan DD, who was first vice-provost and scholar of Latin and Greek in the College of Fort-William, Serampore, Calcutta, in the very first college established by the British in India, wanted a proper local church in Malabar Coast for the non-Catholics, which would be in communion with Church of England.

All the churches established in Malabar Coast in the nineteenth and twentieth century, except the Syro Malabar Catholic church, can trace its history back to the education that followed post visit of Rev Dr Claudius Buchanan in 1806, in the form of training by CMS missionaries/Church of England/Church of Scotland and academic work also by Lutheran Basel Mission.

I hope that answers your question. As I mentioned elsewhere, I see no mention of Coonan Cross Oath in the authentic history of St Thomas Christians. Portuguese Padroado and Carmelites of Papal Congregation of Propaganda Fide were two different Catholic jurisdictions in Malabar Coast. The ancient community was under Portuguese Padroado. It was the Jesuits who worked with the ancient St Thomas Christian community not Carmelites, who came only shortly before the arrival of Dutch, over half a century after Synod of Diamper. The native St Thomas Christians had no reason to break away. No colonial trader demanded that they give up their ancient heritage. All they did in 1599 at Synod of Diamper was to stop praying for Patriarch of Babylon and start praying for Pope in Rome instead. They had their own churches, their own Syriac Liturgy and their own priests, as they always had. The only difference was that instead of having a bishop from the Middle East, they now had a bishop from Europe and they had their distinct identity in See of Cranganore.

What happened after the Portuguese were ousted starting 1658, and completed in 1663 with capture of Cochin, including the lead up to their ousting with help from insiders, is politics of colonial traders, mixed race locals and new converts, involved in colonial trade. The European history of Malabar Coast, which spans nearly four and half centuries, involving Europeans, Hindu rulers of some kingdoms on Malabar Coast, local mixed race Christians and new local converts since 1500, who had to do with them, has nothing to do with native St Thomas Christians, who were in See of Cranganore since 1599.

So there, you have my opinion. I don’t expect you to agree with it, so we must leave it at that.

As to marriage between different groups of Christians in Kerala, it is really up to the partners themselves, and their families, if the couple would like to make their families an integral part of their marriage. In the West it is easy to choose any partner, even if families don’t agree to the match. But in India, marriage is between families and communities who share similar social and religious traditions. It is up to the families to decide if they can find common ground.
 
Isn’t it easy to discredit it that way? I do not agree with you. References to Synod Minutes cannot be ignored that easily.
I am not disagreeing with you in regard to the Minutes, I disagree with Mr. Mathew’s imposition of his view on top of it. Just because the Synod stated something, does NOT mean that the locals never practiced it - for example, do you think that before the Church Synod declared that orthodox faith in the Trinity, that no one believed it? Of course not, the Synod merely separates the orthodox from the heterodox.

The Synod stated practices which it wished to encourage, not necessarily saying that it was never practiced in Malabar as Mr. Mathew imposes.
The intercession part is omitted according to the reformation principles.
That omission and those principles are heterodox.
It is the song of Virgin Mary that we recite during worship – Ref: St.Luke: 1:46-55.
All saints – They are remembered each time in Holy Qurbana and we pray to remember us too along with them.
But do you pray for them to remember you?
Yes you are right they do have churches with biblical names of places. Still they have churches named after Saints also. I don’t think everyone will agree with your opinion of naming of parishes have nothing to do with honoring Saints.
Well, Toronto Marthoma Church and Chicago Marthoma Church are not saintly names… take of it what you will.
 
A careful reading of the history of the Catholic church in Malabar Coast (Kerala since 1956) will reveal that NO native bishop was installed until the end of the nineteenth century. Even the 1887 vicariates of Thrissur and Kottayam of the Syro Malabar Church had Europeans as their first Vicar Apostolic.

By the time the Portuguese were ousted completely in 1663, they had been in Malabar Coast for 163 years, with a well known policy of intermarriage (look at Goa and Brazil if anyone doubts this policy). The Dutch expected only non mixed race Portuguese to leave. Alexander de Campo was the name of the first non European bishop who was left in charge by the Carmelites, who first came to Malabar Coast for a short period in 1641. There were plenty of mixed race Portuguese in the Latin Rite Catholic church in Portuguese controlled areas on Malabar Coast.

The policy of appointing only European bishops continued until the end of nineteenth century. Portuguese colonies in Goa and Brazil can attest to the fact natives were never appointed to positions of power in the early centuries of colonial rule. If the practice of appointing natives were the norm, then Malabar Coast would not have had only European Vicar Apostolics and bishops until the end of nineteenth century.
 
What about the Assyrian Church of the East?

nestorian.org/is_the_theology_of_the_church_.html

“The Antiochene partisans at Nisibis vigorously promoted their Christological position, using the terminology familiar to them, that is, with the very terminology anathematized by the Ephesene synod and by the partisans of Cyril. **Among them Nestorius was venerated **as a staunch defender of Antio¬chene orthodoxy and a martyr to the pride and arrogance of Cyril of Alexandria.”
As history will show, the authentic original Assyrian Church returned to orthodoxy and became Catholic. The modern “Assyrian Church of the East” was started by a Chaldean Catholic bishop after separating from the Catholic Church. Besides, the Marthoma Church today does NOT claim to be Nestorian, so no point in trying to create a link where none exists. The Marthoma church mentions the first 3 Ecumenical Councils in it’s version of the Qurbana, so this Nestorian claim is rejected even by themselves.
That is the certainly logical. The claim of St. Thomas Christians was that they are independent in practices and administration under their Jaathikku Karthavian (Malankara Moopen). All those Bishops from Middle East were accepted with due respect being from the sister Churches. They never interfered in Malankara Nasranees customs. Hence there was no record of any conflicts with them. They might have been catering to the needs of the Nestorian migrant communities in Malankara. Even the Portughese bishops were accepted same way. But they did dirty politics.
Please… history is not so cut and dry. Do you believe that the Chaldean missionaries really let the Malankara church believe and do whatever and anything it felt like, having to spiritual authority whatsoever? That is ridiculous on its face - the original Liturgy was from the Chaldean Church in Eastern Syriac, so any claim to have “no interference” (I’d use the word “influence”) is weak.
All problems and divisions came after Portuguese only. They tried to obliterate the records and practices of ancient St. Thomas Christians, which very well known fact. But the evidences of the ancient practices were preserved in the Minutes of Udaymperoor Synod itself.
This is speculation, who knows what occurred prior to the Portuguese.
Don’t jump into such conclusions – In ancient times their customs were similar to Nestorian customs. They never used images or statues.
The early Chaldean Church did use images, they only started losing this when Islam became dominant in the region - of course they would have done anything to survive under such pressure. Malabar/Malankara did not have such pressures. Besides, the Churches which were relatively free supported the orthodox faith against the heresy of iconoclasm. Are you claiming the Marthoma church to be supporting iconoclasm (it seems Abraham malpan did)?
We can understand the statues and images used as the objects of remembrance and the difference of misuse of those statues and images in the form veneration.
When you **bow down **to those statues or images and pray to it as if the spirit of the person is present in those then it is beyond limits of scripture and can be called idolatry. We believe being Christians we should stay away from such activities showing stark difference of us from the pagan customs.
The “spirit of the person” is not present - we believe that icons are windows into the divine. As such, they are treated with extreme respect and honor. The person being remembered is commemorated for their faith and actions in the Most Blessed Trinity.
 
We both know that it is an invalid question. Don’t get to the extremes for the sake of arguments – That wouldn’t help – I think you are certainly intelligent and rational soul to know the difference. Are we worshipping/venerating the objects on the Altar?
The question is certainly valid - didn’t one group within the Marthoma church separate and create the “St. Thomas Evangelical Fellowship” because they thought the Marthoma church was not reformed enough?
Images of earthly creatures were not made for worship or veneration. The Tabernacle, the arc of covenant and the rest were created only to remind them of what are in heaven, and not to worship them or to venerate them. The worship of Israel was directed toward the Mercy Seat between the Cherubim.
And what does that Mercy Seat point toward? The Throne of God! What is the Altar in the Malankara Tradition? It is called the “Thronos”! Of course it is worthy of veneration! Nothing beside the Holy Eucharist, which is Christ, is worthy of more veneration than the Holy, Life-giving Altar!
It never explicitly says they worshiped it – it was known as Nehushtan not as Jehovah unlike the image of golden calf made by Aaron.
*(Exodus 32:4-5 “And he received [them] at their hand, and fashioned it with a graving tool, after he had made it a molten calf: and they said, These [be] thy gods, O Israel, which brought thee up out of the land of Egypt.
And when Aaron saw [it], he built an altar before it; and Aaron made proclamation, and said, Tomorrow [is] a feast to the LORD.”)*
So the act of **burning incense to it **can be the act of veneration – Interestingly King Hezekiah did not issue a decree to limit the act only veneration from the level of worship, but he destroyed it leaving no room for worship or even veneration.
Since the practice was from the Moses’ time it is hard to believe Moses, Joshua and Samuel etc have allowed it to be worshipped as God, thus breaking the law of God. It must have been only an object of veneration.
So we can conclude King Hezekiah had destroyed Nehushtan (It was shadow/symbol of Christ) which was an object of veneration among Israelites’ worship.
So it is up to you to examine your ways in front of the Lord and in the light of Holy Scripture.
We do not venerate Saints INSTEAD of worshiping God, we venerate Saints in worship of God working in them. We are all called to be like that.
Mar Thoma Church is not for such kind of veneration of any images of saints.
I know that, the point is that this rejection (iconoclasm) is of questionable orthodoxy.
If you have the Marthoma Thaksa – does it quote Jesus’ words?
(Luke 22:19-20) And he took bread, and gave thanks, and brake it, and gave unto them, saying, This is my body which is given for you: this do in remembrance of me. Likewise also the cup after supper, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood, which is shed for you.”
Does the priest then invoke Holy Spirit to sanctify bread and wine to be the body and the blood of Jesus Christ?
Does the priest say that this broken body and spilt blood of Jesus Christ at Calvary is given for the redemption of our sins and receive them with thanks?
And? Pentecostals, Baptists, evangelicals, and others say the same words, but their belief is contrary - such as the “symbolic” heresy.
So do you think it is not the sacrificial body and blood of Jesus that was offered to God in Calvary?
If that is the described as sacrifice of praise, then will it be not be the body of Jesus Christ and His Blood of the New Testament?
The Marthoma church changed the prayers describing the Sacrifice upon the Altar (Christ) being offered to God the Father, into the people’s ‘sacrifice of praise’ being offered to the Father. The offering is completely different. The Marthoma church changed the offering from being Jesus Christ Himself, to the offering of praise.
 
You are right. I have come across with certain Mar Thomites who held adifferent view about Virgin Mary due to ignorance. I understand that it is due to an extreme protestant/Pentecostal influence in them.
My understanding is that it is the Marthoma church’s influence on them. When the ministers of the Marthoma church are educated and trained only in Lutheran, protestant, and Calvinist seminaries, what more can be expected? I’ve never heard of Marthoma clergy studying in the Orthodox or Catholic graduate seminary, only protestant, why is that?
Some Mar Thomites even think that Mar Thoma Church is a Protestant church supporting your view. I certainly try to educate them with correct views that Mar Thoma Church is a reformed Orthodox Church - reformed according to biblical principles and their ancient St. Thomas customs.
The term “reformed Orthodox” is an oxymoron. Orthodoxy (definition: right belief / correct worship) needs no reform. The Marthoma church is a reformed church with protestant faith, retaining stylistic elements of Syriac liturgical tradition. It is not Orthodox.
I am sure I will not be able to solve anything or make you come my way. I sincerely pray for the Holy Spirit’s intervention in uniting the churches in Christ not in futile arguments and fights over dogmas and customs.
This is a common tactic of those who call themselves “reformers” and break away from their mother Church, they accuse the Church they separated from of “arguing over mere dogma and custom”, yet those who created a new church felt the ‘mere dogma and custom’ were big enough to create schism over. Why is stating the difference and pointing out how major they are hard to grasp? The fact is, those “futile”, “mere dogma and custom” are not minor issues at all, they go to the very heart of one’s Faith.
We believe in the authority of scriptures in the matters of dispute. It seems you are not. If you have traditions also for your support, you have to verify them against the contradiction with the Holy Scripture, that is what I feel.
The Apostolic faith has always taught the authority of the Church, it is written in the very Nicene-Constantinopolitan Creed. No where in that Creed is it written, “I believe in the Holy Scriptures as final authority”. The fact is, Christians should not “believe in” the Bible, they should believe in Jesus and His Church, and subsequently believe (not in) the Bible - which flows from the faith of the Church, along with other teachings and practices which are not written in the Bible.
It is surprising to have such a question from you after all your study of bible and Christianity.
Please tell me do you believe Jesus cannot forgive our sins if we repent and pray directly to him?
If you believe He cannot, then my advise will be that it is time that you have to seriously re-examine your beliefs.
God Bless you. 🙂
I believe Jesus CAN do anything He wishes, however, He has already provided for us the proper, normal, and ordinary means in which to confess. Jesus can act outside of those means if He so chooses because He is not bound by them, but that does not diminish our duty to follow the proper practice He has established.
 
To your “Aren’t we all one in Christ?” My answer is an emphatic YES. Personally I think that every genuine Christian, who shares the Christian faith as in the Acts of Apostles of the New Testament, as in the ecumenical Nicean Creed of 341, (many centuries before Protestantism was ever conceived) no matter to which Christian denomination they belong, is one in Christ. But only Jesus Christ can judge who is one with Him because He alone can look into the hearts and minds of human beings. He has said, “Not all who call me Lord, Lord, will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only those who do the will of My Father.” So let us leave judgment in the hands of Jesus Christ.
Yes you are right. I am happy to hear that from you.

About the History of St. Thomas Christians – We cannot agree (of course you mentioned it) that there was no Coonan cross oath. There are many references of it. It is hard to believable that there was no persecution to the St. Thomas Christians at the hands of Portuguese. There were inquisitions also on them held in Goa for disobeying them to be in catholic faith.

Refer: goacentral.com/Goahistory/TheGoaInquisition.htm

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goa_Inquisition

Persecution of Syrian Christians
In 1599 under Aleixo de Menezes the Synod of Diamper converted the Syriac Saint Thomas Christians (of the Orthodox faith) to the Roman Catholic Church under the excuse that they allegedly practiced Nestorian heresy.

The synod enforced severe restrictions on their faith and the practice of using Syriac/Aramaic. The Kerala Christians of Malabar were independent of Rome. What resulted in it was the persecution of the Syrian Christians of Malabar.

They were first made politically insignificant and their Metropolitanate status was discontinued by blocking bishops from the Middle East. There were assassination attempts against Archdeacon George so as to subjugate the entire church under Rome.

Even the common prayer book was not spared. Every known item of literature was burnt and any priest professing independence was imprisoned. Some altars were pulled down to make way for altars conforming to Catholic criteria. St. Thomas Christians resentful over these acts later swore the Coonan Cross Oath, severing relations with the Catholic Church.

In addition, non-Portuguese Christian missionaries who were in competition with the inquisition were often persecuted, even though they were outside of the inquisition’s sphere of influence. When the local clergy became jealous of a French priest operating in Madras, they lured him to Goa, then had him arrested and sent to the inquisition. He was saved when the Hindu King of Carnatica (Karnataka) interceded on his behalf, laid siege to St. Thome and demanded the release of the priest.

The narrative of Da Fonseca describes the violence and brutality of the inquisition. The records speak of the necessity for hundreds of prison cells to accommodate fresh victims.

Seventy-one “autos da fe” were recorded. In the first few years alone, over 4000 people were arrested, with 121 people burnt alive at the stake.

Most of the Goa Inquisition’s records were destroyed after its abolition in 1812, and it is thus impossible to know the exact number of the Inquisition’s victims.

Based on the records that survive, H. P. Salomon and I. S. D. Sassoon state that between the Inquisition’s beginning in 1561 and its temporary abolition in 1774, some 16,202 persons were brought to trial by the Inquisition.

Of this number, **it is known that 57 were sentenced to death **and executed in person; another 64 were burned in effigy. Others were subjected to lesser punishments or penanced, but the fate of many of the Inquisition’s victims is unknown.

About the differing opinions about St. Thomas Christians’ history, as you said it is best to leave it that way. They will not help the cause of ecumenism.
As to marriage between different groups of Christians in Kerala, it is really up to the partners themselves, and their families, if the couple would like to make their families an integral part of their marriage. In the West it is easy to choose any partner, even if families don’t agree to the match. But in India, marriage is between families and communities who share similar social and religious traditions. It is up to the families to decide if they can find common ground.
You are right. 🙂
 
About the History of St. Thomas Christians – We cannot agree (of course you mentioned it) that there was no Coonan cross oath. There are many references of it. It is hard to believable that there was no persecution to the St. Thomas Christians at the hands of Portuguese. There were inquisitions also on them held in Goa for disobeying them to be in catholic faith.

Persecution of Syrian Christians
In 1599 under Aleixo de Menezes the Synod of Diamper converted the Syriac Saint Thomas Christians (of the Orthodox faith) to the Roman Catholic Church under the excuse that they allegedly practiced Nestorian heresy.

The synod enforced severe restrictions on their faith and the practice of using Syriac/Aramaic. The Kerala Christians of Malabar were independent of Rome. What resulted in it was the persecution of the Syrian Christians of Malabar.

They were first made politically insignificant and their Metropolitanate status was discontinued by blocking bishops from the Middle East. There were assassination attempts against Archdeacon George so as to subjugate the entire church under Rome.

Even the common prayer book was not spared. Every known item of literature was burnt and any priest professing independence was imprisoned. Some altars were pulled down to make way for altars conforming to Catholic criteria. St. Thomas Christians resentful over these acts later swore the Coonan Cross Oath, severing relations with the Catholic Church.

In addition, non-Portuguese Christian missionaries who were in competition with the inquisition were often persecuted, even though they were outside of the inquisition’s sphere of influence. When the local clergy became jealous of a French priest operating in Madras, they lured him to Goa, then had him arrested and sent to the inquisition. He was saved when the Hindu King of Carnatica (Karnataka) interceded on his behalf, laid siege to St. Thome and demanded the release of the priest.

The narrative of Da Fonseca describes the violence and brutality of the inquisition. The records speak of the necessity for hundreds of prison cells to accommodate fresh victims.

Seventy-one “autos da fe” were recorded. In the first few years alone, over 4000 people were arrested, with 121 people burnt alive at the stake.

Most of the Goa Inquisition’s records were destroyed after its abolition in 1812, and it is thus impossible to know the exact number of the Inquisition’s victims.

Based on the records that survive, H. P. Salomon and I. S. D. Sassoon state that between the Inquisition’s beginning in 1561 and its temporary abolition in 1774, some 16,202 persons were brought to trial by the Inquisition.

Of this number, **it is known that 57 were sentenced to death **and executed in person; another 64 were burned in effigy. Others were subjected to lesser punishments or penanced, but the fate of many of the Inquisition’s victims is unknown.

About the differing opinions about St. Thomas Christians’ history, as you said it is best to leave it that way. They will not help the cause of ecumenism.
Mr EagleWatch, you definitely don’t help the cause of ecumenism when you associate the Inquisition of Goa, whatever the truth of it might have been, with St Thomas Christians on Malabar Coast.

The Synod of Diamper (in the kingdom of Cochin) 1599 could take place only with the consent of at least a small portion of the St Thomas Christian community and the Hindu king of Cochin. All the rest accepted the decision made at the Synod. Archbishop Menezes visited all the St Thomas Christian churches at the end of the Synod. As the Archbishop of all Latin Rite Catholics of Portuguese Padroado, he also visited all the Latin Rite churches which were under Portuguese Padroado at the time. The Jesuits had done a lot of preparatory work (not through Inquisition!) before the Archbishop of Goa Alexio de Menezes came to finalize the Synod of Diamper in 1599. Fr Francisco Roz (Rodriquez) SJ was chosen as the first bishop because he had worked with St Thomas Christians, as had other Jesuits before him. From what has been recorded, Abp persuaded the St Thomas Christians to come in communion with RCC. *There had never been use of force or persecution of St Thomas Christians at any time. *

Since St Thomas Christians followed the Roman Catholic Church hierarchy since 1599, there could not have been an archdeacon from that point on in See of Angamaly-Cranganore. There were vicars (parish priests), and a European, Latin Rite bishop, instead of an Assyro-Chaldean bishop from the Middle East as they had until 1597. Only for two years 1597 - 1599 were the St Thomas Christians without a bishop. An archdeacon would have been in charge at that time.

No matter how little power the Hindu kings might have had on Malabar Coast (remember Malabar Coast consisted of several independent kingdoms, and was never a single large kingdom at any time; the state of Kerala formed along linguistic lines in 1956 was in an independent secular republic), the various kingdoms and principalities of Malabar Coast still had kings and rulers of their own.

**Goa **on the other hand was a Portuguese colony, without a local ruler.

When the Portuguese were ousted from Malabar Coast completely in 1663, the non-Catholic Dutch had control until 1795, after which non-Catholic British took over.

I suggest you stop repeating these dramatic descriptions of Inquisition in Goa from the perspective of European Protestants. Even if they were true, one thing is certain, it **had nothing to do with St Thomas Christians in Malabar Coast. **
 
***Merry Christmas !

Happy New Year 2010 !

May Our Lord Jesus Christ, the Prince of Peace, come into the heart of all Christians and fill all with His love, His truth and His peace !***
 
Mariamkutty giving advices on Ecumenism with filthy propaganda from Thrishur is very funny.

I suggest Mariamkutty to cite sources- documents if she further repeat falderal in the name of history.

Fr Francisco Roz SJ was chosen with the consent of Archdeacon and it was the Archdecon who handed over the Pallium from Pope. Angamaly diocese was a creation of Portuguese under the Portuguese Padrado suffragon to Goa. The See of Archdeacon was Kuravilanagadu. If you happen to know something Cite documents than repeating your nasty posts.
 
Yes you are right. I am happy to hear that from you.

About the History of St. Thomas Christians – We cannot agree…

You are right. 🙂
Mr EagleWatch, all Christians must seek ecumenical unity in areas in which they agree. It goes without saying there will be matters about which all the parties must agree to disagree.

All Christians can find common ground in their beliefs about Jesus Christ. The Bible after all is common to all, even if different Christian denominations may interpret the teachings of Jesus and His Apostles differently.

The other point all Christians can find common ground is about the human condition and what to do about creating good human beings, good families and good societies, which includes taking care of the disadvantaged, sick and vulnerable members of the society and being good stewards of the planet we share with all human beings.

The history of Christianity in Kerala is a controversial topic, hence unity should not be sought based on that. A false unity is not unity at all. It is better to agree to disagree rather than build any false unity by appeasing the powerful in a way which makes little historical sense. Primary historical sources are available scattered all over the world. Those who are interested must search intensely enough that is all. ***The history of Christianity in Kerala should not be made into a commercial commodity and as tool for power games. ***

But it is possible to build good relationships with Christians of good will from all denominations without letting history get in the way.

In the case of marriage between members of different Christian denominations in Kerala, the common denominator is the language and culture and basic Christian beliefs. One should not try to find compatibility in historical traditions if none exists. A married couple can live happily and continue to be Christians in belief and practice even if their respective church versions of history of Christianity in Kerala don’t agree. And the families of the couple likewise can meet for family gatherings without letting the history of their respective churches get in the way. It is always important to remember that the most important duty of the families concerned is to help the couple in building a harmonious relationship and build a lifelong, strong, united, and happy Christian family.
 
Hi all,

i am a Christian born and brought up by a family who have strong christian values and graown up in a marthomite church…

Lord our God and Saviour Jesus Christ says love each other… and we people fight for CATHOLIC MARTHOMA etc useless…

there is only one church - thats the church jesus has started, 12 places…
all the churches vary in the way they praise god… we all believe in jesus our saviour…

no where in BIBLE its says follow blindly what the Preists/Church is saying… God has given The Holy Spirit to the world until he is back. For every step in life we have bible and holy spirit to guide us and to take decisions… all we need to do is study bible…
not to follow the clergy blindly… jesus has given us the right to question …

for all this has to happen we gotta love Lord our Saviour unconditionally… his love is agapae love.

if the boy & girl together make a decision to love each other unconditionally and they pray together to god for the lord’s wish they will get the answer, to be together or not…

dont go after others… because at the end of the day u r on ur own… only god can help us.

amen
 
waoh waoh…
here i am seeing people going after HISTORY and alll…

hey guys pride, prejudice, heredity wont take you to heaven…
LOVE each other… Accept Jesus Christ as Lord Our Saviour.
huh

we are ““so called Christians”” but in our living we are not …
 
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