Syro-Malabar Liturgy.

[boby012]

Boby012- “Also some people from thrissur-cochin side told me that the travancore side is trying to use Syriac for the entire qurbana…is that true ?”

This is wrong. Don’t buy what ever you hear especially from Cochin- Thrishur areas. This is not because you cant trust people there. The people there might have heard some propaganda unleashed by the latin Syro Malabar priests.

The entire Syro Malabar Qurbana of Addai and Mari in Kerala and outside was only changed from Syriac language in to local language Malayalam only in 1962.

The Cochin- Thrishur side which makes some 20-25 % of Syro Malabar population has been ruled by Bishops who first supported the Indian Mass. This link has a picture of the Indian Mass. traditioninaction.org/RevolutionPhotos/A216rcHinduMass.html

Mar Parekattil of the Ernakulam diocese was the problem maker in Syro Malabar Church. Rome ripped this off and then these Ernakulam became spokesmen of Latin qurbana. Since 1962- the liturgy was further latinised and new practices were introduced in these region. The present Thrishur Bishop is some one who has been trained in Syro Malabar background and he may change Thrishur to her genuine traditions. Its too early to make such statements.

Ernakulam diocese is a hopeless case. There are many Ernakulam priests who supports the above so called Indian Mass.Mar Parekattil of the Ernakulam diocese was the founder of this so called Indian Mass with sex postures and dances.

Syriac Qurbana is still celebrated in churches in Travancore on different occasions. This is because further latinisation from 1962 was very limited in Travancore. There were also Bishops in some of the Travancore diocese who were more genuie to the liturgical tradtions such as Mar Vayalil of Palai and Mar Powathil of Chanaganashery and Kanjirapally.

hi luk thomas i know you are a scholar in church related issues

Can you tell me more about the indian mass conducted by SMC priest especially Parekkatil?

Also about the person Joseph pulikkunnel ?

 

[mathewjoseph]

hi luk thomas i know you are a scholar in church related issues

Can you tell me more about the indian mass conducted by SMC priest especially Parekkatil?

Also about the person Joseph pulikkunnel ?

I know this Pulikkunnel well. He is too old now. He is based on Palai, Kottayam. His habit is to spread all abuses against bishops and priests. He publishes Hosana, a magazine full of non senses and the purposefully framed stories of middle aged popes. A lot of catholics are behind him supporting him. I think a major support he is getting from Manorama.

Parekattil tried to make mass more Indian adding sanscrit and all in to the mass thus created too muc hproblems in the liturgy.

 

[Mariamkutty]

MathewJoseph, I have read that there are several academics from erstwhile upper Travancore who serve as mouth pieces for the militant Hindu group. I don’t know how far it is true. Their anti-Catholic stand could well be European Protestant anti-Pope stand as well, which may mimic Hindu militant ideology. There have been plenty of Europeans, Anglicans chief among them, who have written loads of material against popes. All they have to do is borrow those writings, although none of it has any real application in Kerala. Synod of Diamper 1599 took place under the watch of Portuguese Padroado, in Cochin, a good three hundred and eighteen years before the establishment of CMS college in Kottayam (1817), and a good one a half centuries before Kottayam was created by the king of Travancore (1754). At the very least sixty four years before Portuguese lost power to the Dutch in Cochin (1663). There have been no religious wars in Kerala. There has been plenty of politics of European colonial traders (who always acted with the permission of local Hindu rulers during colonial times) - Portguese, Dutch and British - not only of their local converts, but also those who merged with locals and the descendants of both groups.

It may be rightly said perhaps that there was probably no clear demarcation between church and state as far as the Christian community was concerned after the arrival of Portuguese until Indian independence. And there is probably all the relics of colonial traders’ politics in Kerala churches even now.

 

[Mariamkutty]

**For history of academic study on Syriac Liturgies read:

Rev Dr Claudius Buchanan who visited Malabar Coast in 1806

and the development of Liturgy in Church of Scotland

Equally important are the academic writings and mission notes of British scholars belonging to Church of England and those who served on Malabar Coast as part of Christian Missionary Society (CMS), London Missionary Society (LMS), Lutheran Basel Mission (who had to leave Malabar Coast when World War I broke out)…**

 

[Mariamkutty]

**The Addai and Mari Syriac Liturgy of the ancient Christian community of natives of Malabar Coast who came in communion with RCC at Synod of Diamper 1599, is to be differentiated from the academic study of Syriac Liturgies in the Middle East by two non-Catholic groups in the nineteenth century.

The stage for the academic study of Syriac Liturgies by European scholars and non-Catholics from Malabar Coast was set by Rev Dr Claudius Buchanan after his visit in 1806.

The Latin Rite diocese of Cochin in Thrissur (migrants from Cochin when Shakthan Thampuran built Thrissur town and its commercial centre in late eighteenth century) was influenced by the non-Catholic group and the schism had its beginnings in Kottayam, which is referred to as “mission station.” The Latin Rite diocese of Cochin schismatics however chose to study the Chaldean Syriac Liturgy of Addai and Mari which was what the authentic ancient Christian community had been following in the See of Angamaly and Kodungallur (Cranganore), and only had some of its elements concerning allegiance to Patriarch of Babylon purged at Synod of Diamper in 1599.

The Assyro Chaldean group in Iraq (Babylon) itself broke up into two groups some time before/after 1599. The break away group came in communion with RCC. A brand new third church, in Anglican communion was created in the nineteenth century by Anglicans using a single member from the break away group in communion with RCC. The clergy of the brand new church were trained in Anglican seminaries and consecration was done by the Anglican church. The original ancient church eventually died out. The remaining members, and Assyrians and Chaldean from all over ME, probably joined one of the two newly formed churches, the break away one in communion with RCC and the other absolutely new church created in the nineteenth century using the ancient Syriac Liturgy by the Anglican Church in communion with it.**

 

[Mariamkutty]

After the visit of Rev Dr Claudius Buchanan to Malabar and Coromandel Coasts in 1806, the non-Catholic groups of upper Travancore (present Kottayam, Pathanamthitta and Allepey districts), known as Jacobites, who would split into several groups post 1836, chose to study the Syriac Liturgy of St James from the Middle East.

They split into three main groups - one came in full communion with Anglican Church. Mar Thoma Church. The other accepted Patriarch of Antioch. A third group chose to remain independent. All three groups use some variation of the Syriac Liturgy of St James which the Church of Scotland scholars studied in great depth. The visit of Rev Dr Claudius Buchanan in 1806, and his call to academic study of Syriac Liturgy in the Middle East made it possible for non-Catholics in Malabar Coast to study the Syriac Liturgy along with Church of England and Church of Scotland scholars.

Thus the Knanayi Christian community which formed the bulk of the Vicariate of Kottayam in 1887, followed the Syriac Liturgy of St James adopted by non-Catholics in the nineteenth century. The vicariate of Thrissur however followed the Syriac Liturgy of Addai and Mari which had been followed by the ancient community, only purged of allegiance to Patriarch of Babylon in 1599 at Synod of Diamper.

At Synod of Changanasserry in 1888, the seat of vicariate of Kottayam was moved to Changanesserry. In 1896, when the diocese of Kottayam was restructured and the diocese of Changanesserry was created, the new diocese of Ernakulam was formed taking 11 ancient churches from vicariate of Thrissur. The Knanayi Christians of Kottayam following the same Syriac Liturgy of St James as their non-Catholic counterparts, were given a diocese of their own in 1911.

The allegation of Latinization made by members of upper Travancore (Kottayam-Pathanamthitta, Allepey districts) about members of Thrissur District, is because they have a Liturgy that was taken fresh from the Middle East in the nineteenth century, while vicariate of Thrissur, being the continuation of See of Angamaly-Kodungallur followed the Syriac Liturgy and Addai and Mari that had been purged at Synod of Diamper in 1599.

 

[SyroMalankara]

The charge of latinization is made against the Syro-Malabar liturgy created by Francis Roz - which was incredibly close to the original, but purged references to the Patriarch, inserted the filioque, and the institution narrative, among other things. Roz and his successors (as well as the Syro-Malabar latin-trained hierarchy) also initiated practices to mimic the Latin Church, such as using unleavened bread for Eucharist, removing and conforming vestments to look like Latin vestments, banning the ordination of married men to the deaconate and priesthood (married deacons have now been restored), and inserting latin practices such as Stations of the Cross, Benediction and Adoration of the Eucharist, etc.

Do you deny that these Latinizations exist?

 

[SyroMalankara]

The allegation of Latinization made by members of upper Travancore (Kottayam-Pathanamthitta, Allepey districts) about members of Thrissur District, is because they have a Liturgy that was taken fresh from the Middle East in the nineteenth century, while vicariate of Thrissur, being the continuation of See of Angamaly-Kodungallur followed the Syriac Liturgy and Addai and Mari that had been purged at Synod of Diamper in 1599.

hahaa! That is probably the most ridiculous statement I’ve ever read!

Your claim is that the Holy Qurbono of St. James as celebrated in the Syriac Orthodox, Malankara Orthodox, and Syro-Malankara Catholic Churches is a creation of the 19th Century? Which “sources” did you find this information? And what Liturgy did these Churches celebrate prior to this “fresh” creation? What did they pray in the Syriac Catholic and Syriac Orthodox Church prior to the “Anglican creation”?

 

[SyroMalankara]

Not to mention here is a map of Angamaly-Kodungallur:

maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=Fc1omwAdCWWNBClZmbvgZQYIOzHxHmdOa163GQ%3BFZ3gmwAdsqeKBCkpi1o96hsIOzGw5pnqLHI7TA&q=Angamaly+to+Kodungallur&sll=10.362204,76.349487&sspn=0.420802,0.727158&gl=us&ie=UTF8&ll=10.207827,76.232758&spn=0.210504,0.363579&z=12&saddr=Angamaly&daddr=Kodungallur

And here is Trisshur quite a distance to the north:
maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&q=Trichur,+Kerala,+India&sll=10.207827,76.232758&sspn=0.210504,0.363579&gl=us&ie=UTF8&cd=1&geocode=FZBWoAAd7dyKBA&split=0&hq=&hnear=Trichur,+Kerala,+India&ll=10.289247,76.515656&spn=0.841793,1.454315&z=10

As one can see, Ernakulum-Cochin is much closer to the original See.

 

[tmancath]

Try this link for a starter.

thanks for the link, very helpful

 

[boby012]

hahaa! That is probably the most ridiculous statement I’ve ever read!

Your claim is that the Holy Qurbono of St. James as celebrated in the Syriac Orthodox, Malankara Orthodox, and Syro-Malankara Catholic Churches is a creation of the 19th Century? Which “sources” did you find this information? And what Liturgy did these Churches celebrate prior to this “fresh” creation? What did they pray in the Syriac Catholic and Syriac Orthodox Church prior to the “Anglican creation”?

SyroMalankara do not belive the lies of eranakulam & trissur

What they want is the complete Submission to RSS by promoting the Indian mass “mess”

See there are many so called ashrams in these region propagating anti catholic anti smc propaganda

see the list of ashrams and "Neo Pagan Sanyasi Priest’s

Sameeksha Ashram/ Fr. Sebastian Painadath SJ in Kalady

Dhyana Ashram/Fr. Sylvester Kozhimannil (1979) in Nambiarkunnu;

Santhi Sadan/Swami Yesu Prasadam (1986) in Neriamangalam;

Sannidhanam/Mataji Jeevanjali (1989) in Arimanal;

Ishwar Bhawan/Sr. Rose Pudukadan (1991) in Thanisery;

Shanti Thirtam Ashram/ Mataji Mary Magdalene (1993) in Thozhupadam;

Matha Mariam Ashram/Sr. Alice (1995) in Mundappilly, all in Kerala

 

[Mariamkutty]

*Since Kerala State, India, is a highly sought after tourist destination, it is marketed by different groups in different ways. Hence maps of Kerala found on the Internet need not be reliable as it may be merely part of promotion by a particular group or person for different reasons.
*
**Please ignore ALL maps of Kerala posted until now.

Here is a map taken from (hopefully!) an official Kerala government website: **

kerala.gov.in/dept_survey/map_kerala.jpg

http://www.kerala.gov.in/dept_survey/map_kerala.jpg

For the purpose of discussion on the topic of Christianity in Kerala, it must be noted that Kottayam and Pathanamthitta districts are not coastal areas. It is flanked to the West by the coastal districts, Alapuzha (Allepey) and Kollam (Quilon).

Note:

Kodungallur (known as Cranganore in earlier writings by non-locals; supposed to be known as Muziris in ancient times) was a port town in ancient times. According to tradition of natives of Malabar Coast, Apostle Thomas landed in the port town Kodungallur (Cranganore) first. The ruler of Kodungallur, Cherman Perumal, has been mentioned in connection with trade grants on copper plates granted to **migrant **Christians and Jews (? from Middle East or Europe) to Malabar Coast. Among the Jews (who have a colony in Mattancherry, Cochin) there are two groups - one is referred to as “Black” Jews (because they are darker skinned and resemble native Indians!) which is the ancient community of Malabar, and White Jews, who are European settlers after the arrival of Portuguese and Dutch. (Anyone who studies the history of Europe between the years 1500 - Second World War, can learn that there were plenty of Jews in Portugal, Spain, and Holland… during the centuries European traders from those countries controlled Malabar Coast.)

The Assyro-Chaldean bishop sent by the Patriarch of Babylon to the ancient native Christian community on Malabar Coast, prior to the arrival of Portuguese in 1500, was based in Kodungallur (Cranganore) because it was an important port town, besides it being the place where, according to tradition, Apostle Thomas is said to have landed. The ancient community had their own bishop until 1597. At Synod of Diamper 1599, the separate See created for the ancient community was first at Angamaly, and then shifted to Kodungallur (Cranangore). It remained there until the See of Cranganore was suppressed in 1886, one year before vicariate of Thrissur was formed in the first step towards forming an independent church. Vicariate of Kottayam 1887, was not the continuation of See of Cranganore.

**Palayur, located in the North-West Chavakkad Taluk of Thrissur District, has the oldest church of the NATIVE Apostle Thomas tradition.
**

Cochin (known to locals as Kochi) was developed into a port city first by Portuguese starting 1500 and development was carried on by the Dutch starting 1663. Until the arrival of Portguese, Kochi (Cochin) was no more than a small, insignificant principality. Even during Portguese and Dutch colonial times, Kochi remained a small kingdom. It first expanded to some areas of present Thrissur District only in the late eighteenth century when Dutch controlled Kochi. Thrissur town was built in the time of king Shakthan Thampuran, by clearing a teak forest, and a commercial centre was created around a circular centre. Businessmen from Cochin came to Thrissur at that point. They included Indian natives and also probably Indo-Portuguese and free Dutch burghers. It is somewhat difficult to identify them because like the Jews in all parts of the world, they adopted local names. Portuguese are known to have intermarried with locals anyway. Most of the new migrants to Thrissur settled around the newly built town, and in new exclusive residential areas created by them.

Upper Travancore, consisting of today’s districts, Kottayam, Pathanamthitta (part of Kottayam until 1982) and Alapuzha (Allepey) districts, gained in Christian prominence only after the arrival of British in 1806, starting with the visit of Rev Dr Claudius Buchanan and CMS missionaries who set up a seminary, started English medium and Malayalam medium schools, CMS College, and press. They propagated the British/European Protestant ideal of education for all. Plantation of coffee by Portuguese, tea by Dutch and rubber by British in their hilly areas contributed to their wealth. Coffee, tea and rubber are not native to the Malabar Coast. They are cash crops introduced by Europeans.

 

[Mariamkutty]

There are two discussion threads that need to be linked to this one, since much information is simply being repeated.

Syro Malabar Catholic Church in the Thrissurian Tradition

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=289346&page=55

Syro Malabar Church Phoenix Arizona

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=395125

---

**PS: There has been NO division in the See of Cranganore created for the ancient Christian community that came in communion with RCC in 1599, nor the 1887 vicariate of Thrissur of the Syro Malabar Catholic Church. **

 

[ruudmac]

i would like all you guys to just type syro malabar traditional songs in youtube and ill tell u,you will be ashamed to see there is’nt a single song but try the other syrian churches and you will see loads of videos including the knanaya syro malabar church. this latinization of our church has destroyed our traditions and heritage.i urge all old preists who still love our oriental roots to split our church we need to go back to the days where we had bearded priets and deacons the traditional black robes etc our group is planning to distribute pamphlets in syro malabar churches telling them the truth of our history and traditions

 

[potohar]

ruddmac, the original syrian christians st.thomas converted in palayoor and arthatt are not worried about your invented history .we don’t consider christians south of eranamkulam as authentic.christians in kottayam are converts from nair cast.

 

[ruudmac]

dear pottahar there is nothing like original syrian christians cos families from ekm do get married to people fom kottayam and vice versa.and as for your original syrians comment my mothers side grandfathers family name is kalliath that is from kali one of the 4 principal families of that time the others being sankuri,palamittam and kaliave whom st thomas himself is said to have baptized. dont divide aldready divided syrian christian community on the basis of different regions

 

[Mariamkutty]

dear pottahar there is nothing like original syrian christians cos families from ekm do get married to people fom kottayam and vice versa.and as for your original syrians comment my mothers side grandfathers family name is kalliath that is from kali one of the 4 principal families of that time the others being sankuri,palamittam and kaliave whom st thomas himself is said to have baptized. dont divide aldready divided syrian christian community on the basis of different regions

What do you have to say to the families in Thrissur District who claim to be of Nambudiri origin and have been converted by Apostle Thomas? And if they claim that it is not possible for any one family to know the names of all the families Apostle Thomas converted in 52 AD? And if any family, from anywhere in Kerala, makes claims of such accurate knowledge, they are simply bluffing big time?

I have read this interesting fiction about four families, and four families only, who were converted by Apostle Thomas. Who started the fiction and on what basis was the fiction written? You must know because you claim to be from one of the four families.

The problem is not with the claim that any family was converted by Apostle Thomas. The problem is with the claim to be in the know of exact number of families that were converted by Apostle Thomas and their names.

 

[potohar]

you have to publish a book about how kottayam sucks.sour grapes issue
vallam also sucks visited kerela anywhere south of thrissur.who helps you in writing fictions this much hate for ceyrian christians?your posts are so parochial,hateful.are you catholic .share your historic studies here.make a rite for thrissur seperting till angamali.racist scoundrals trying to pretend as ceyrian.this isdone by someone aginst ceyrian malabar catholic church.thrissur catholics exodus to paravoor and east after tipu sultans war.the latincatholics are spreading hate aginst original ceyrian christians(who can be idenitifiedby psyical features unlike latin convert)
watched in asianet about rioting cmi fathers of thalore infant jesus church&monestry to come under thrissur arch diocese protesting in road against Bishop Mar Andrew Thazath.disappointing.thrissur has no history including palayoor with the latin catholics who are writing fictions against original ceyrian malabar catholics of malayattoor,paravoor,changanassery,vallam,pala,kanjripilly,thodupuzha etc.thrissur catholics are latins in general.

 

[potohar]

dear pottahar there is nothing like original syrian christians cos families from ekm do get married to people fom kottayam and vice versa.and as for your original syrians comment my mothers side grandfathers family name is kalliath that is from kali one of the 4 principal families of that time the others being sankuri,palamittam and kaliave whom st thomas himself is said to have baptized. dont divide aldready divided syrian christian community on the basis of different regions

jus gone thru her posts.plain hate speech.even sarghoda head mufti will dare sucha ****.nafrt fela raha he.saali galet fehmi fel rha he ceyrian christians ke khilaaf.is ka kya history he.kus nahi he.yhan is liye he ke iski khopre mein jo aaye likh de…dushmani he…sayad kisi kottaayam wale ne is ko sabak sikha liya hoga.badle lene yhan aaya hoga…

 

[Mariamkutty]

you have to publish a book about how kottayam sucks.sour grapes issue
vallam also sucks visited kerela anywhere south of thrissur.who helps you in writing fictions this much hate for ceyrian christians?your posts are so parochial,hateful.are you catholic .share your historic studies here.make a rite for thrissur seperting till angamali.racist scoundrals trying to pretend as ceyrian.this isdone by someone aginst ceyrian malabar catholic church.thrissur catholics exodus to paravoor and east after tipu sultans war.the latincatholics are spreading hate aginst original ceyrian christians(who can be idenitifiedby psyical features unlike latin convert)
watched in asianet about rioting cmi fathers of thalore infant jesus church&monestry to come under thrissur arch diocese protesting in road against Bishop Mar Andrew Thazath.disappointing.thrissur has no history including palayoor with the latin catholics who are writing fictions against original ceyrian malabar catholics of malayattoor,paravoor,changanassery,vallam,pala,kanjripilly,thodupuzha etc.thrissur catholics are latins in general.

Secular history reveals an oft concealed part of Portuguese and Dutch colonial times in Asia. While the whole world knows about slave trade involving Africa and the Americas, very little is written about slave trade in Asia by Portuguese and Dutch. It involved coastal areas of India which were under their control. Coromandel Coast and Malabar Coast were also not free of the inhuman business.

So where did all the Portuguese and Dutch who lived on Malabar Coast from 1500 - 1795 go? Surely there are some mixed race descendants left behind?

The ancient community of Christians in Thrissur District, mentioned by missionaries before the arrival of Dutch and British, did not migrate anywhere. They came in communion with RCC in 1599 and remained so.

The traders had reason to migrate from one place to another as new trading opportunities opened up and as colonial trading powers changed hands. This did not affect the local community of Christians.

See of Cranganore was created for the ancient Christian community by Portuguese Padrado. Even if the ancient native community had no control over the new converts of Latin Rite who would join them, they did have the power not lose their identity by remaining in the separate See created for them, which neither the Dutch nor British nor even Portuguese interfered with.

There had never been migration of locals from Thrissur to any other part of Kerala. This is fabricated by groups who are not natives of Thrissur District. There were new settlements made by Dutch in some parts of Thrissur district during their period. These groups also invent a story of migrations within Thrissur District, although the migration was TO Thrissur District from Cochin by outsiders.

Nobody needs to share the history of Thrissur District. Let each one stick to their own history. But it is essential to highlight there was no migration of natives of Thrissur district to any part of Kerala. It is accepted that Syrian Rite Catholics from other parts of Thrissur District could have settled in the newly formed town of Thrissur when it was built in the late eighteenth century. But the Syrian Catholics could not have been attending either Latin Rite Churches of Diocese of Cochin or have been non-Catholics when Rev Dr Claudius Buchanan visited in 1806.

Conflict at Thalore parish in Thrissur Archdiocese is about Thrissur Archdiocese wanting to appoint diocesan priests within its territory, in accordance with a MoU made out eighteen months ago, in which a Carmelite Congregation, CMI, from Mannanam, Kottayam, was asked to hand over the parish to Thrissur Archdiocese.

Although Vicariate of Thrissur, the continuation of See of Cranganore, was established in 1887, it had no major seminary of its own to train its priests, until recently. Now that Thrissur Archdiocese can provide its parishes with diocesan priests, the services of a Carmelite religious order, CMI from Mannanam, Kottayam, is not required. It is true that CMI excels in its services. But the archdiocese wishes to appoint its own diocesan priests within its territory.