Syro-Malabar Liturgy.

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Are all the Thrishur Women like this ? This girl has some serious problems with Syro Malabar Church and see how she diverts the thread. Did anyone ask you this ?

If you have nothing to say about Syro Malabar liturgy, why dont you yourself find a solution to your problem than repeating your random posts again again …

Shame on you !
 
Why don’t you publish your propaganda theories and get those peer reviewed than spitting your venom not sparing any thread here on Syro Malabar Church. Do you want everyone here to waste their time in finding a public solution to your personal problem. If that is the case, why don’t you start a thread in respective section.
***You are free to post whatever you consider appropriate to the discussion. So am I !

I have been responding to your posts in many instances.

This is just the place to post my views. It encourages a lot of people to look for more information from primary sources.

New Age church groups in Kerala have been writing lots of propaganda for the past two centuries. I have only just begun contradicting what has thus far been swallowed uncritically. If I had known about the propaganda earlier, I would have posted my objections earlier. ***
 
Lets take this formerly then, let me contact Thrishur diocese and see what they have to say about this as you have been using Thrishur name.

Let me also formerly complain your behavior to the forum moderators here . Let them decide for whom were you diverting the thread on Syro Malabar liturgy .
 
***Mr LukaThomas, I might as well remind you that you are here posting on an American forum, a country which values freedom of thought and expression seriously.

I post my personal opinions here as I am permitted to do. I never claimed to represent any church. As far as I know only SyroMalankara uses the name of a church as his Username, thus indirectly claiming to represent a whole church.

You have insulted me several times on this forum. I have chosen to ignore it even while reminding you to learn to be civil with those who disagree with you.

I hereby request the moderators to do a complete search of all your posts addressed to me to assess your style of communication.

Whatever I choose to disagree with about the history of Christianity in Kerala written by anyone, I’m free to disagree with. That is what freedom of expression is all about. But I don’t want you to think I’m not doing any background reading from the most authentic sources I can find online before posting here. I merely choose not to post the references because this forum is not an academic publication.

 
Out of your 371 posts more than 300 are repetitive posts you made to divert the discussion here. You have used Thrishur and Thrishur diocese name here. What you did now to divert a pictorial representation of Syro Malabar Qurbana itself explains your basic problems.

Since you have taken this further, lets get clarity on this . I will let the forum moderators also know what Thrishur diocese has to say about this. There is nothing more I have to tell you now.
 
Lets take this formerly then, let me contact Thrishur diocese and see what they have to say about this as you have been using Thrishur name.

Let me also formerly complain your behavior to the forum moderators here . Let them decide for whom were you diverting the thread on Syro Malabar liturgy .
***Mr LukaThomas, in public meetings discussing history of Kerala, Hindu scholars deny that Apostle Thomas ever came to Kerala. Do you lodge official complaints and take them to court for saying that?

 
Since you have taken this further, lets get clarity on this . I will let the forum moderators also know what Thrishur diocese has to say about this. There is nothing more I have to tell you now.
***Mr LukaThomas, I think it is a great idea to invite every single priest in the Thrissur Archdiocese, including the two suffragan diocese, Palakkad and Irinjalakuda, and the eleven ancient churches which was part of 1887 Vicariate of Thrissur (considering I meant all of them when I mentioned See of Angamaly-Cranganore), to read all the four threads on which I have posted comments on this forum. I would love for all the priests to reflect seriously about what I have written and post their feedback here, so that I can learn more on the topic and so can others.

 
You were doing your posts in a Catholic forum, so let them decide is this a venue for any one posing as a Syro Malabar Church member igniting factionalism and regionalism. Let them decide what they want to do with some one who divert every threads on Syro Malabar Church with her propaganda.

I will confirm with Thrishur diocese if they have given any wholesale permission to Mariamkutty to pose here as a concerned Syro Malabar Catholic from Thrishur to air her propaganda.

If you are looking for publicity for your propaganda, you might have to do that on your own, not at the expense of Catholic.com or Syro Malabar Church or Thrishur diocese or Thrishur people.

I am not interested to continue meaning less conversation with you. I have made my complaint and lets see how it goes. Learning and you don’t go together, so don’t go there.
 
**Mr LukaThomas, you are free to complain even to the Pope if it serves your purposes. **
 
Your parents would be better choice as I can confirm with family and parents on upbringing . No more comments to you.

Thanks for diverting the pictorial representation on Syro Malabar Qurbana. I hope you already have got the enjoyment you were looking for .
 
Your parents would be better choice as I can confirm with family and parents on upbringing . No more comments to you.

Thanks for diverting the pictorial representation on Syro Malabar Qurbana. I hope you already have got the enjoyment you were looking for .
**Mr LukaThomas, my upbringing was,
  1. Not to be intimidated by bullies,
  2. Not to be afraid to seek the truth because God is Truth (Jesus said, I’m The Way, The Truth and The Life),
and 3. Not to be afraid to speak out even when it was unpopular.

In fact being fearless was considered a mark of real belonging to the clan!**

Your posts have not disappeared, so what you call pictorial representations of the Syro Malabar Qurbana can be viewed by all.
 
I was not asking about your opinions !

“parents would be better choice as I can confirm with family and parents on upbringing”

If you can share the details, please do so. You and the thread starter of Thrishurian tradition sounds same.That’s known to everyone who reads the posts here.
 
Can I expect a statement that all the similarities between Mariamkutty and the thread starter of Thrishurian tradition are accidental ?
 
At this point, I think it would be wise for the forum rules to be re-read:

DISCUSSION FORUMS
  1. Messages posted to threads should be on-topic. If you wish to discuss another topic, start a new thread.
  2. The views and positions expressed in the Politics and News Forums are solely those of the participants and do not reflect the views and positions of Catholic Answers.
  3. Do not pad your post count with chatty or off-topic messages.
 
At this point, I think it would be wise for the forum rules to be re-read:

DISCUSSION FORUMS
  1. Messages posted to threads should be on-topic. If you wish to discuss another topic, start a new thread.
  2. The views and positions expressed in the Politics and News Forums are solely those of the participants and do not reflect the views and positions of Catholic Answers.
  3. Do not pad your post count with chatty or off-topic messages.
Mr SyroMalankara, while you are at it, do you mind clarifying that the opinions you express on this forum are your own and you do not post here as an official spokesperson of the Syro Malankara Church? Your Username SyroMalankara creates much confusion you know. Syro Malankara is the name of a church, and since Catholic Answers has provision for members to display a username and declaration of one’s religions affiliation separately, using the name of a church as a username causes unnecessary confusion. If you have been officially appointed as the spokesperson for your church, it would be all the more appropriate for you to post your real name and designation in the church hierarchy for readers to be clear about the level of authority you bring to the table as an official representative.

I have already made it clear that I express my own interpretation of history of Christianity in Kerala based on the sources of information I have used. My search for primary sources of information is still in its infancy. Even the online documents I have been able to read needs to be checked for its authenticity by getting at untampered hard copies. Therefore I do not post here as a scholar. Religion and history of religions is not my area of study. I post merely as one who wishes to encourage readers to seek primary sources of information further back in time than the scholars who are commonly cited for recent publications on the topic.

I would request the moderators NOT to use you as a mediator in any conflict on this forum related to history of Christianity in Kerala because you are one of the participating members in the discussion. Moderators and mediators need to be outsiders who are capable of at least some degree of unbiased judgment.
 
Mr SyroMalankara, while you are at it, do you mind clarifying that the opinions you express on this forum are your own and you do not post here as an official spokesperson of the Syro Malankara Church?
Very funny. I don’t think it needs to be stated because it is obvious.
Your Username SyroMalankara creates much confusion you know.
Are you saying that it causes much confusion for you, or are you attempting to save those who you think are incapable of figuring out the obvious (afterall, you’ve figured it out) for themselves?
Syro Malankara is the name of a church, and since Catholic Answers has provision for members to display a username and declaration of one’s religions affiliation separately, using the name of a church as a username causes unnecessary confusion.
I disagree. No one here is confused by my use of this username.
If you have been officially appointed as the spokesperson for your church, it would be all the more appropriate for you to post your real name and designation in the church hierarchy for readers to be clear about the level of authority you bring to the table as an official representative.
Suffice to say that I do not speak as an official spokesperson for anyone, I speak for myself and cite other scholarly and academic sources when presenting statements which need verification prior to being presented as fact. When stating an opinion, I do not cite sources, as such are unnecessary.
I have already made it clear that I express my own interpretation of history of Christianity in Kerala based on the sources of information I have used. My search for primary sources of information is still in its infancy. Even the online documents I have been able to read needs to be checked for its authenticity by getting at untampered hard copies. Therefore I do not post here as a scholar. Religion and history of religions is not my area of study. I post merely as one who wishes to encourage readers to seek primary sources of information further back in time than the scholars who are commonly cited for recent publications on the topic.
Why won’t you post these so-called “primary sources” that you claim to use so that we can all read them ourselves and determine whether they are authentic for ourselves? So far it seems you are presenting yourself as having unverified information, which you refuse to cite (which comes across as either you do not, in fact, have any sources and are presenting your opinion as fact; or, you are citing sources which cannot be trusted). Yet you keep claiming to have some “online documents” - why not present them to the reader?
I would request the moderators NOT to use you as a mediator in any conflict on this forum related to history of Christianity in Kerala because you are one of the participating members in the discussion.
I am not sure who and what you are writing about here - I am not a mediator, nor have any forum moderators asked me to be one. I am simply a long-time, active member of this forum, who has proven to be reliable in presenting Catholic teaching from the orthodox (some say traditional) side - especially in regard to the Syro-Malankara and other Eastern Churches. Sure there are disagreements, but both sides are always academically presented and then we agree to disagree if that is where the debate takes us.

These recent presentations of opinion as fact, without citation - especially in regard to a controversial topics which goes against EVERY scholarly and academically held view is something new, which no one has even been brazen enough to post - especially when this new view has not been citing their source of information.
I think it is obvious why it would lead to others being upset.
Moderators and mediators need to be outsiders who are capable of at least some degree of unbiased judgment.
There is no educated person who is unbiased (meaning, the only person who will remain unbiased on a particular position in regard to FACT [not opinion] is one who is not educated on the subject matter), the question is, will one’s bias lead to favoritism… When the presentation of fact is shown to have support from well-known, acknowledged and verifiable sources, this bias can be moderated and even though one may disagree, it will not lead to confrontation. On the other hand, if sources are not cited, nor any attempt made to show the academic background of the presentation - one can simply dismiss that opinion as fiction until facts prove otherwise. The one who repeats and re-repeats that unverified statement on multiple, unrelated threads creating off-topic posts is being disrespectful and disruptive.
 
Are you saying that it causes much confusion for you, or are you attempting to save those who you think are incapable of figuring out the obvious (afterall, you’ve figured it out) for themselves?

No one here is confused by my use of this username.
Mr SyroMalankara, YES! I’m saying it causes much confusion for me when you use the name of a church as your Username. All you need to find a less confusing name is to string two neurons together and THINK of another name! So take it that I AM the “no one” here who is confused, especially since you act as if you have been appointed as a policeman for the Syro Malanakara church to report anyone who disagrees with your views. You kept asking me for the name of my parish priest, remember?
Originally posted by SyroMalankara: Suffice to say that I do not speak as an official spokesperson for anyone, I speak for myself and cite other scholarly and academic sources when presenting statements which need verification prior to being presented as fact. When stating an opinion, I do not cite sources, as such are unnecessary.
Don’t expect me to believe you are here behaving like one used to academic discussions that disagrees with official positions held by a particular organization, and in your case the Syro Malankara Church. Your academic citations have been merely about producing a list of three or four authors and some institutions. You did not even clarify what they wrote about and when and why you cited them in the first place. If you read my posts carefully enough you’d notice that I am calling readers to go further back than the era of “creating” antiquity with scholarship of Liturgies and traditions in the Middle East starting in the nineteenth century with British training. Listing institutions which have been involved in that kind of creating antiquity since the arrival of British scholarship to India in nineteenth century, doesn’t count as primary sources of information to me. The Malabar Coast had nothing to do with the rest of India until 1795, and even then only as part of British Raj until 1947. There was a Portuguese Malabar Coast and a Dutch Malabar Coast long before the British arrived. The history of Kerala is tied with them for three hundred years.
Originally posted by SyroMalankara: Why won’t you post these so-called “primary sources” that you claim to use so that we can all read them ourselves and determine whether they are authentic for ourselves? So far it seems you are presenting yourself as having unverified information, which you refuse to cite (which comes across as either you do not, in fact, have any sources and are presenting your opinion as fact; or, you are citing sources which cannot be trusted). Yet you keep claiming to have some “online documents” - why not present them to the reader?
I expect the readers of this forum to be intelligent enough to use the Internet and libraries, if they are sufficiently interested in exploring the topic further. I have given plenty of guidance on what to look for.
Originally posted by SyroMalankara: I am not sure who and what you are writing about here - I am not a mediator, nor have any forum moderators asked me to be one. I am simply a long-time, active member of this forum, who has proven to be reliable in presenting Catholic teaching from the orthodox (some say traditional) side - especially in regard to the Syro-Malankara and other Eastern Churches. Sure there are disagreements, but both sides are always academically presented and then we agree to disagree if that is where the debate takes us.
Since Mr LukaThomas, whom you have supported always on this forum, has since lodged an official complaint about me to the moderators of Catholic Answers, requesting that they do not use you as a mediator or moderator to resolve the conflict, was a preemptive act, if you will. Pjk123, after all got one discussion thread closed based on his complaint about me.
 
Originally posted by SyroMalankara: These recent presentations of opinion as fact, without citation - especially in regard to a controversial topics which goes against EVERY scholarly and academically held view is something new, which no one has even been brazen enough to post - especially when this new view has not been citing their source of information. I think it is obvious why it would lead to others being upset.
Your argument would be reasonable only if I did not invite people to look for primary sources of information, even giving guidance as to the areas that need to be explored. What I write are not mere personal opinions, but personal interpretations of information that I have collected, thus far. Being aware of ancient local traditions certainly goes a long way in helping me assess the quality of information I gather. Your understanding that if a priest scholar writes something, then it must be true, is not something I share. Neither do I share the view that having free run of a press owned by churches to print as many books as possible expressing any view necessarily constitutes scholarship. We have a bad example with communist propaganda. Mere bulk of printing and publishing is no mirror of being in possession of truth. Priests are conditioned in a certain way, which in many ways makes it more difficult for them to be critical of views shared by the church they represent. In the history of European Protestantism such a method - publishing leaflets and distributing them and using institutions of learning - was used to rapidly spread Reformation. We know from assessing literature of those times, and on the same topic even now, not all of what was/is written about the Roman Catholic Church or clergy, was/is true. In Kerala however, there is recorded history of Christianity before the profusion of a different kind of history began to be published in the nineteenth century. A lot of it has disappeared after the arrival of Dutch, of Papal Congregation of Propaganda Fide, of the British, after the suppression of Augustinians and Jesuits, after the suppression of Portuguese Padroado. But not all of the material has completely disappeared. It needs to be looked for carefully in the archives of different religious and civic organizations.
Originally posted by SyroMalankara: There is no educated person who is unbiased (meaning, the only person who will remain unbiased on a particular position in regard to FACT [not opinion] is one who is not educated on the subject matter), the question is, will one’s bias lead to favoritism… When the presentation of fact is shown to have support from well-known, acknowledged and verifiable sources, this bias can be moderated and even though one may disagree, it will not lead to confrontation. On the other hand, if sources are not cited, nor any attempt made to show the academic background of the presentation - one can simply dismiss that opinion as fiction until facts prove otherwise. The one who repeats and re-repeats that unverified statement on multiple, unrelated threads creating off-topic posts is being disrespectful and disruptive.
Do you really believe I would invite readers to look for primary sources of historical information if they didn’t exist? Would I not be afraid that they would ridicule my interpretations on this forum? But as you can see I am not afraid of being corrected or contradicted based on real primary sources of information. It is just that we disagree on what is primary. To you whatever was written after the visit of Rev Dr Claudius Buchanan in 1806 counts as primary. But to me it doesn’t. (You do not even count his writing as being primary in any sense, although it serves a primary as far as the new churches created in the nineteenth and twentieth century in Kerala are concerned.) The Portuguese came in 1500, and the Dutch in 1658, and much has been written about Christians in Malabar Coast before the arrival of British.

The name that was chosen for your church, Malankara, was never a part of local Apostle Thomas tradition. Yet you insist that it was, based on what was written by your church group of the nineteenth century. You need to produce a primary source before the arrival of Dutch when Kodungallur was referred to as Maliankara. Synod of Diamper in 1599 does not mention any such place in relation to native traditions.

Yes it is admitted that there is a migrant group in Malabar Coast, who called themselves Syrian Christians, as you pointed out Jewish Christians. But they are not natives of Malabar Coast or part of the local Apostle Thomas tradition. It is not the group the Jesuits worked with before Synod of Diamper. If they had been on Malabar Coast before the Dutch arrived, then Jesuits would have known about them and written about them. It needs to be asked why the Jesuits did not mention them, after all Portuguese had exclusive control of the Indian coastline for a whole century 1500-1602 (when Dutch and English East India Companies were first formed), and they still held on to their power in Malabar Coast until 1663.
 
Mr SyroMalankara

Because of the name you have chosen, which happens to be also the name of the church you belong to, let me leave all readers of my posts on this forum with a literature search assignment.

***When was the Malabar Coast first referred to as Malankara?

When was it first claimed and by whom that Apostle Thomas landed at Malienkeria and NOT as per local tradition, in Kodungallur, known to outsiders as Cranganore?

When did the non-Catholic church adopt the name Jacobite? When and why did they change it? Are there churches which still are known by the name Jacobite? Why?

What does the Synod of Diamper 1599 and See of Cranganore have to do with the ancient St Thomas Christian community of Malabar Coast? Why was Cranganore chosen as the seat of the bishop, when Cochin, which was the seat of power of the Latin Rite Catholic Portuguese, since 1500 and would remain in their control until 1663, could have been chosen? Why were other places, Kollam (Quilon), Niranam… not chosen as the seat of the bishop? What was the name Kottayam was known by in 1599? Which important Christian center existed in Changanasserry in 1599?

Good Luck with your search! ***

Happy Advent and Merry Christmas and Happy New Year 2010!
 
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