Tableeghi Jamaat: No Gunpoint Sharia

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I have a personal question for you. If we were to walk into an auditorium and continue this discussion on stage, how would you treat me? I get the impression from your posting that you’d be kind of angry and yelling. But if I’m your enemy, shouldn’t you love me? Can you tell me how you would demonstrate your love for me if we were talking in a public forum?
If we were having this debate in an auditorium you wouldn’t be as able to ignore or twist or turn your way out of answering directly by saying things like: Go study pre Islamic history and leaving it at that.

I am not yelling or screaming. I am making direct specific points, and you are telling me flat out that I am either “lying” (personal accusation) or that I am “wrong” instead of giving scriptural references to prove I am wrong. Or “did you even read what I said”? That implies I didn’t read, instead of noting my point. And you don’t address the point (which is the false claim that Jesus is just a prophet, one that is propagated by a man who came later and had everything to gain in saying God told him everyone in Christ had it all wrong). Do you even read what I say?

How well does that work in a formal debate?

And how do you show love when you ignore, deny and twist, call people liars or just flat out “you are wrong”, as if that is all we need to know. How is that respect? I can match your attitude in my own way (yours it being short and rude, mine is direct and to the point) and when I do you ask, “is that love”. Is it when you do it?
 
ISLAMABAD: In an unprecedented move, top leaders of the Tableeghi Jamaat have denounced enforcement of Sharia at gunpoint, religious extremism, militancy and terrorism.

dawn.com/wps/wcm/connect/dawn-content-library/dawn/news/pakistan/12-tableeghi-jamaat-leaders-denounce-gunpoint-sharia–bi-12
The hypocrisy of the Tableeghi Jamaat is astounding.

They were the religious group calling for the persecution of hindu, sikh and christian communities in Pakistan.

Not to mention their connection to various terrorism groups in India.
 
The hypocrisy of the Tableeghi Jamaat is astounding.

They were the militant group calling for the persecution of hindu, sikh and christian communities in Pakistan.

Not to mention their various terrorist affiliations with groups in India.
I agree. This is purely a political maneuver and nothing more.
 
To the first question: it is not lawful in Islam for Muslims to be involved in any part of the process of distributing alcohol, from creating it to drinking it. They aren’t allowed to carry it, buy it, sell it, transport it, etc. Might be the same with pork. So if you can find non-Muslims to make your wine, transport your wine, and sell your wine, managing every step in the process, it shouldn’t be a problem.
Not true, the brewing of alcohol is never allowed in islamic countries. However you can import it.
The religions which are allowed to fully operate in a Muslim society are those which have scriptures revealed by God. I didn’t mention the word theocracy at all. But if God reveals a scripture, is it not incumbent upon the people to follow it?
No religion is allowed to fully operate in an islamic society.

The right to proselytise is restricted to only islam. Even though that is a core belief of Christianity.
 
Muhammad did not force people to embrace Islam. He didn’t.

He fought, but not to force people into Islam. He fought because he was being fought, and he fought because God commanded him to fight, not something less than other prophets of God. He fought because he was in charge of protecting his people.
Lies, he fought to spread the religion, it was a grand extortion scheme.
 
As have been pointed out, most conquered enemies were converted to Islam because they could not stand the humiliation and the unfavorable conditions imposed on them as non-Muslims of other religions.
Says who? Can you cite a historian of the Middle East who subscribes to this view?

I think I recently read in a Bernard Lewis book (The Crisis of Islam) that non-Muslims in countries conquered by Islamic armies were indeed second-class citizens, but that it was superior to being non-citizens which is what non-Christians were in the West.
 
Says who? Can you cite a historian of the Middle East who subscribes to this view?

I think I recently read in a Bernard Lewis book (The Crisis of Islam) that non-Muslims in countries conquered by Islamic armies were indeed second-class citizens, but that it was superior to being non-citizens which is what non-Christians were in the West.
Question: is it better to be a non-Christian today in a Christian dominated country or to be a non-Muslim today in a Muslim dominated one?
 
Jesus was the Word of God. His very actions were what we were given and they were supported fully by his teachings. He was indeed a ruler in the way that a true messenger with Gods message in their heart, soul and will would be. This is what you don’t get!

Muhammad started right off by antagonizing the religion of his tribes, and never let up. His psychological viewpoint is well captured in Islam and I can see very clearly that he was pathologically obsessed with using violence to prove his religion mighty and victorious over everything else. He was insulted, and driven away, chastized and threatened, before he fled to Medina. Big deal. What prophet wasn’t? Stage was set, lets see what he does IN RESPONSE. Oh, well we know how the story ended, on his death bed cursing people after having broken every element of the truth given by Jesus, whom he also attacked in a passive way by denying the gospels written, denying his purpose and mission and so easily denying his authority and word as absolute, undoing them and replacing them with his version which is in complete opposition.

Thou shalt not murder became thou shalt not murder “except”…!!! Except when you are threatened enough and angry enough and insulted enough.

Islamic imperialism has gone on from day one, this religion became a scourge on the earth, because of its claim that Allah wants people to fight.

I don’t care how many threats were on his life, we already had Jesus Word and his beautiful example of Gods truth before Muhammad came along. So what if other prophets used war, they were before Jesus, Jesus revealed a much more glorious way, a higher truth, one that would truly bring peace to the world if they would plant that seed in their hearts and live it. And NOTHING in it speaks of war, not because he was ‘not a ruler’ but because war is not GODS WAY, it is mens way.

Islam makes human evil holy and that is what makes Islam evil.
And that’s why he said “My Kingdom is not of this world”.

Vickie
 
Question: is it better to be a non-Christian today in a Christian dominated country or to be a non-Muslim today in a Muslim dominated one?
Is there a truly Christian-dominated country today?

Seriously, though, I was talking about pre-modern Islam because that’s what Reuben was talking about. It is true that Islam has become more exclusivist in modern times, and that is distressful.
 
In the name of Allah , Most Gracious, Most Merciful

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Question: is it better to be a non-Christian today in a Christian dominated country or to be a non-Muslim today in a Muslim dominated one?
If we give more importance on life hereafter , then it’s better to live in a Muslim majority country 🙂

In the name of freedom , we don’t have gay couple , gay parade , love child etc. TV Channels start with Quran recitation , they telecast call to prayers , programmes on religion are there almost daily . These remind us of God Almighty .

Some people are good because they are not getting chances to commit sin . There is a fear that they will be condemned / punished.
 
In the name of Allah , Most Gracious, Most Merciful

http://theislampath.com/smf/Smileys/default/salam.gif

If we give more importance on life hereafter , then it’s better to live in a Muslim majority country 🙂

In the name of freedom , we don’t have gay couple , gay parade , love child etc. TV Channels start with Quran recitation , they telecast call to prayers , programmes on religion are there almost daily . These remind us of God Almighty .

Some people are good because they are not getting chances to commit sin . There is a fear that they will be condemned / punished.
Sorry, but I would rather work out my salvation in fear and trembling than be afraid that some goofball will blow me up at the market.

If you avoid sin because you will be punished on earth for it, that does not create an internal change in your heart. It only makes the sin internal. Jesus teaches that it is what is inside that makes you unclean. If you hate, you commit murder. If you lust, you have already committed adultry. The threat of a beating for adultry does not keep you from the sin. IT only makes the sin internal.
 
Besides, I have yet to see one Muslim country that not only guarantees freedom of religion 100% for Christians but enforces it and protects the rights of them from other civilians. I can post link after link about mobs in countries burning churches and beating Christains while the governments do nothing…All the while, you people say that there is no compulsion in Islam.

I was born at night, but not last night.
 
Muhammad did not force people to embrace Islam. He didn’t.

He fought, but not to force people into Islam. He fought because he was being fought, and he fought because God commanded him to fight, not something less than other prophets of God. He fought because he was in charge of protecting his people.
Well, this post sounds like someone has hit their foot on the ground and then with an exasperated voice says ‘No, he didn’t!’.

mohammed himself is reported as having personally engaged in a bit of forceable conversion. According to Ibn Hisham in “The Biography of Muhammad”(Part 4, Page 11)

Muhammad told him: “Woe to you, O Abu Sufyan. Is it not time for you to realize that there is no God but the only God?” Abu Sufyan answered: “I do believe that.” Muhammad then said to him: “Woe to you, O Abu Sufyan. Is it not time for you to know that I am the apostle of God?” Abu Sufyan answered: “By God, O Muhammad, of this there is doubt in my soul.” The ‘Abbas who was present with Muhammad told Abu Sufyan: “Woe to you! Accept Islam and testify that Muhammad is the apostle of God before your neck is cut off by the sword.” Thus he professed the faith of Islam and became a Muslim.”

but, here is a hadith - mohammed forced followers to continue believing, ‘Whoever changed his islamic religion, then kill him.’ Bukhari vol9 book84 no57

As for the intro link - I hope that it happens although I don’t think they will get very far. Sorry, but this is just a side attraction that is meant to give infidels some hope that islam is changing. Actions speak louder than words - we will see.
Sharia law should be banned due to its nature of human rights abuses anyway. Which mean that since it is based on the hadiths, sunnah, and koran… well, I won’t finish this sentence since it would mean that these sources are the problem. :eek:
 
Can you tell us why the Taliban and such groups so badly misunderstand Islam.
Because most of them are uneducated peasants from Pakistani refugee camps.

I have a great deal of respect for the intelectual tradition of Islam. Unfortunatly it seems many modern Mulims have forgotten their past and follow a cheep, vulgar Talibanism rather than tapping into the rich intelectual tradition which is theirs.
 
If we give more importance on life hereafter , then it’s better to live in a Muslim majority country 🙂

In the name of freedom , we don’t have gay couple , gay parade , love child etc. TV Channels start with Quran recitation , they telecast call to prayers , programmes on religion are there almost daily . These remind us of God Almighty .

Some people are good because they are not getting chances to commit sin . There is a fear that they will be condemned / punished.
Oh yes you do. But, as for ‘love children’ - I am sure the women will say they are their husband’s children and the ones not married are killed in muslim societies after the kids are born. Who knows what happens to the kids in those lands. And the gays - well, here is a line from a muslim on what to do with them if they are caught:

Gays are seen as contagious.

Shiba al-Hamad (2005), saudi sheik Abd al-Qadar
-‘Homosexuality is a sever depravity.’
-If you caught a man in the act of sodomy kill both him and his partner.’

ITS (islamic Thinkers Society) June 2004
‘We are muslims and we will never stay silent against this act. Because allah, the glorified and exhalted, forbids homosexuality.’

Abu Mujahid, spokesperson ITS (in USA)
‘Sometimes we are blunt when the … ruling system is established we give them a choice we will consult them, give them choice of therapy and tell them to abandon the homosexuality lifestyle and if they don’t - either leave and if you want to be here then you got to face the punishment as a criminal.’

He was asked what is the punishment.

‘Throw them off a cliff.’

But, all of the above doesn’t answer what the men who buy little boy slaves that have had either a full or partial castration. I am sure some are physically and mentally abused, but then there are these - I will include the illicit sex with both males and females: Slavery in islam

Muslim men were allowed to have sex anytime with females slaves - Sura 4:3, 4:29, 33:49.

In ‘The Slave Trade Today’, Sean O’Callaghan toured the Mideast and Africa and covertly visited many slave markets. Since Islam

allows for slavery and slave trading, he was able to see much of the real world of Islamic slavery. Remember O’Callaghan saw this less than 40 years ago. This probably still continues today, albeit more discreetly. (my comment - several people (Saudis) have been caught in our country with slaves and now sit in prisons and will be deported after their prison sentences)
In Djibouti he writes:
Code:
        "Ten boys were ranged in a circle on the dais (used to display the slaves), their buttocks toward us.  They were all naked, and I saw with horror that five had been castrated.  The (slave dealer) said that usually 10% of the boys are castrated, being purchased by Saudi homosexuals, or by Yemenis, who own harems, as guards." p 75
Code:
        "Why had the girls (female slaves who had just been sold) had accepted their fate without a murmur, the boys howled and cried?"
“Simple” said the Somali, we tell the girls from a very early age - 7 or 8 that they are made for love, at age NINE we let them practice with each other, and a year later with the boys".
In Aden he writes:
Code:
        "The Yemeni told me that the girls (slave girls used as prostitutes) were encouraged to have children, especially by white men.  For if a slave girl had a white child, she was given a bonus of 20 pounds when the child was taken from her".
In Saudi Arabia he writes:
Code:
        'I was awakened by shouts and screams coming from the courtyard.  Rushing to the window I looked down to see a dozen slaves being herded through a door at the far end of the yard.  They were being driven in like cattle by three hefty guards armed with long lashed whips.  Even as I watched, one of the poor wretches, a Sudanese girl with huge breasts, received a savage lash across her naked buttocks let out a shriek of agony'
Code:
        'As the next slave was led in, a murmur of excitement went up among the buyers and they crowded closer around the rostrum.  He was a slender boy of about 12 years old with beautiful classical Arab features.  Although much has been written about Arab brotherhood and solidarity, I knew that the Arab has no compunction in enslaving his fellows should they fall into his hands.
Code:
        The boy was naked and tried to cover his privates with his little hands and he ran up the steps of the rostrum......there is an age old saying among the Bedouin:  "A goat for use, a girl for enjoyment, but a boy for ecstasy".  He (the now purchased slave boy) was claimed by a tall bearded Arab who led him from the rostrum with an arm around his waist".
 
In the name of Allah , Most Gracious, Most Merciful

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…If you avoid sin because you will be punished on earth for it, that does not create an internal change in your heart. .
May be , but God is merciful and won’t punish if we wanted to commit a sin but did not .
 
In the name of Allah , Most Gracious, Most Merciful

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Oh, you do.

You just don’t know who they are yet.
because in Muslim majority countries , sinners don’t have courage to do these openly . They don’t think it’s their right to do so . Sadly some/ many Christians believe in gay rights , gay marriages as if God approved all these.
 
because in Muslim majority countries , sinners don’t have courage to do these openly . They don’t think it’s their right to do so . Sadly some/ many Christians believe in gay rights , gay marriages as if God approved all these.
Many do not - it is just that we don’t go out and kill them. If a person does kill them then they are subject to the same laws about murder as anyone else, unlike in muslim countries where it is ok to do whatever to them. We are told not to put ourselves up with God to be the judge, jury and executioner of them. I think you call it ‘shirk’. You know - putting oneself up there with your god.

**Why is it that homosexual behavior is ok if it is with slaves, but it is not ok if it is with two free people? **slavery in islam

I am not saying homosexuality is ok, but I am not going to go out and kill anyone for what they do. Nor will I judge them. It takes arrogance and intolerance to set oneself up as their judge, jury and (too often) executioner.

and another thought - why is it ok in your allah’s heaven? You know - those fresh young boys that the men get? So, it is the same with wine too. Does Satan supply him with the wine?
 
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