TAC-Related Announcement Post-Lambeth?

[ASimpleSinner]

TAC-Related Announcement Post-Lambeth?

Please keep in your prayers the possible efforts of Rome to put in place a template for the many Anglicans who are feeling cut adrift and looking to find a new home. Speculation that has been ungoing for months is that moves are afoot (with a possible announcement being made in the wake of the dicennial Lambeth Conference of Anglican bishops from around the world) to create an option that may end up being something like a “Universal Pastoral Provision”.

These are exciting times!

http://www.thefloridacatholic.org/rop/2008_rop/2008_ropphotos/20080625cnsbr00317.jpg

 

[Harpazo]

TAC-Related Announcement Post-Lambeth?

Please keep in your prayers the possible efforts of Rome to put in place a template for the many Anglicans who are feeling cut adrift and looking to find a new home. Speculation that has been ungoing for months is that moves are afoot (with a possible announcement being made in the wake of the dicennial Lambeth Conference of Anglican bishops from around the world) to create an option that may end up being something like a “Universal Pastoral Provision”.

These are exciting times!

http://www.thefloridacatholic.org/rop/2008_rop/2008_ropphotos/20080625cnsbr00317.jpg

Will do! These people deserve better, and I hope and pray that Rome will be able to meet their needs!

Alaha minokhoun,
Andrew

 

[JesuitLoyola]

I had heard that pending the compromise of some TAC clergy, that there might be an Anglican rite of the Catholic church in full communion with Rome, does anyone know anything about this?

 

[bpbasilphx]

I had heard that pending the compromise of some TAC clergy, that there might be an Anglican rite of the Catholic church in full communion with Rome, does anyone know anything about this?

**There are about a half-dozen Anglican Use parishes in the USA under the pastoral provision.

Our Lady of the Atonement in San Antonio, TX is one. They have a most informative website.**

 

[JesuitLoyola]

Wow thats great to know, do you think there will be growth of the Anglican Use parish in the forseeable future?

 

[TriuneUnity]

TAC-Related Announcement Post-Lambeth?

Please keep in your prayers the possible efforts of Rome to put in place a template for the many Anglicans who are feeling cut adrift and looking to find a new home. Speculation that has been ungoing for months is that moves are afoot (with a possible announcement being made in the wake of the dicennial Lambeth Conference of Anglican bishops from around the world) to create an option that may end up being something like a “Universal Pastoral Provision”.

These are exciting times!

http://www.thefloridacatholic.org/rop/2008_rop/2008_ropphotos/20080625cnsbr00317.jpg

Wouldn’t all of the bishops and priests within the TAC need to be re-ordained since they trace their ordinations through the Anglican Church, rather than the Roman Catholic Church?

 

[Peter_J]

Here’s an article on it.

 

[TriuneUnity]

Here’s an article on it.

Thanks for the link, Peter. I didn’t see in the article where ordination was addressed though? Maybe I missed it.

 

[ASimpleSinner]

Thanks for the link, Peter. I didn’t see in the article where ordination was addressed though? Maybe I missed it.

Chances are good that each and every sacred minister would need to have his case examined on a case by case basis. As it stands, most of them would be (perhaps) best suited to request “sub conditione” ordination (a la Father Graham Leonard), but I really doubt any orders would be accepted “as is.”

YES, some or all of them can demonstrate the presense of an Ultrajectine (so-called “Old Catholic”) bishop in their pedigree… but frankly, all steryotypes aside, the Catholic Church is not so “Augustinian legalistic” that they are satisfied one is valid simply because a valid bishop can be found in the background. Questions of verification, form, intent, proper matter all come into play. When in doubt…

 

[TriuneUnity]

Chances are good that each and every sacred minister would need to have his case examined on a case by case basis. As it stands, most of them would be (perhaps) best suited to request “sub conditione” ordination (a la Father Graham Leonard), but I really doubt any orders would be accepted “as is.”

I would think that that would be the case. Being that Rome stresses highly the need for valid ordination in order to ensure apostolic succession it would not make an exception in this case.

Be that as it may, I wish the TAC the best of luck in resolving this and reuniting with Rome. Lord knows, the Anglican communion could use the stability.

 

[Rolltide]

Things continue to get more interesting… This isn’t the TAC, this involves Church of England clergy, including priests AND bishops…

wdtprs.com/blog/2008/07/the-telegraph-anglican-bishops-in-secret-vatican-summit/

Anglican bishops in secret Vatican summit
By Jonathan Wynne-Jones, Religious Affairs Correspondent

Senior Church of England bishops have held secret talks with Vatican officials to discuss the crisis in the Anglican communion over gays and women bishops.

They met senior advisers of the Pope in an attempt to build closer ties with the Roman Catholic Church, The Sunday Telegraph has learnt.

Dr Rowan Williams, the Archbishop of Canterbury, was not told of the talks and the disclosure will be a fresh blow to his efforts to prevent a major split in the Church of England.

In highly confidential discussions, a group of conservative bishops expressed their dismay at the liberal direction of the Church of England and their fear for its future.

They met members of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, the most powerful of the Vatican’s departments, the successor to the medieval Inquisition, which enforces doctrine and was headed by Pope Benedict XVI before his election.

The names of the bishops are known to The Sunday Telegraph, but they have asked for anonymity because the talks are of such a sensitive and potentially explosive nature.

The disclosure comes on the eve of a critical vote as members of the General Synod – the Church’s parliament – prepare to decide whether to allow women to be bishops without giving concessions to staunch opponents.

Up to 600 clergy gave warning in a letter to Dr Williams that they may leave the Church unless they receive a legal right to havens within the Church free of women bishops.

In separate developments, three diocesan bishops wrote to the archbishop supporting the threat and two other bishops have said they are preparing to leave the Church. The letter from the Bishops of Chichester , Blackburn and Europe – seen by The Sunday Telegraph – argues that traditionalist clergy will not be able to “maintain an honoured place” in the Church without sufficient legislation.

“Clearly the ordination of women as bishops would divide the Church of England even more fundamentally than the ordination of women as priests,” it says.

article continues at link…

 

[wisdomseeker]

Things continue to get more interesting… This isn’t the TAC, this involves Church of England clergy, including priests AND bishops…

wdtprs.com/blog/2008/07/the-telegraph-anglican-bishops-in-secret-vatican-summit/

Anglican bishops in secret Vatican summit
By Jonathan Wynne-Jones, Religious Affairs Correspondent

Senior Church of England bishops have held secret talks with Vatican officials to discuss the crisis in the Anglican communion over gays and women bishops.

They met senior advisers of the Pope in an attempt to build closer ties with the Roman Catholic Church, The Sunday Telegraph has learnt.

Dr Rowan Williams, the Archbishop of Canterbury, was not told of the talks and the disclosure will be a fresh blow to his efforts to prevent a major split in the Church of England.

In highly confidential discussions, a group of conservative bishops expressed their dismay at the liberal direction of the Church of England and their fear for its future.

They met members of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, the most powerful of the Vatican’s departments, the successor to the medieval Inquisition, which enforces doctrine and was headed by Pope Benedict XVI before his election.

The names of the bishops are known to The Sunday Telegraph, but they have asked for anonymity because the talks are of such a sensitive and potentially explosive nature.

The disclosure comes on the eve of a critical vote as members of the General Synod – the Church’s parliament – prepare to decide whether to allow women to be bishops without giving concessions to staunch opponents.

Up to 600 clergy gave warning in a letter to Dr Williams that they may leave the Church unless they receive a legal right to havens within the Church free of women bishops.

In separate developments, three diocesan bishops wrote to the archbishop supporting the threat and two other bishops have said they are preparing to leave the Church. The letter from the Bishops of Chichester , Blackburn and Europe – seen by The Sunday Telegraph – argues that traditionalist clergy will not be able to “maintain an honoured place” in the Church without sufficient legislation.

“Clearly the ordination of women as bishops would divide the Church of England even more fundamentally than the ordination of women as priests,” it says.

article continues at link…

where is the queen on all of this?

:bowdown: :bowdown:

 

[Hesychios]

…I wish the TAC the best of luck in resolving this and reuniting with Rome. Lord knows, the Anglican communion could use the stability.

TAC is not the Anglican communion.

 

[TriuneUnity]

TAC is not the Anglican communion.

Right…sorry…I should have worded that more broadly Anglicanism could use the unity.

 

[rien]

Things continue to get more interesting… This isn’t the TAC, this involves Church of England clergy, including priests AND bishops…

wdtprs.com/blog/2008/07/the-telegraph-anglican-bishops-in-secret-vatican-summit/

Anglican bishops in secret Vatican summit
By Jonathan Wynne-Jones, Religious Affairs Correspondent

Senior Church of England bishops have held secret talks with Vatican officials to discuss the crisis in the Anglican communion over gays and women bishops.

They met senior advisers of the Pope in an attempt to build closer ties with the Roman Catholic Church, The Sunday Telegraph has learnt.

Dr Rowan Williams, the Archbishop of Canterbury, was not told of the talks and the disclosure will be a fresh blow to his efforts to prevent a major split in the Church of England.

In highly confidential discussions, a group of conservative bishops expressed their dismay at the liberal direction of the Church of England and their fear for its future.

They met members of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, the most powerful of the Vatican’s departments, the successor to the medieval Inquisition, which enforces doctrine and was headed by Pope Benedict XVI before his election.

The names of the bishops are known to The Sunday Telegraph, but they have asked for anonymity because the talks are of such a sensitive and potentially explosive nature.

The disclosure comes on the eve of a critical vote as members of the General Synod – the Church’s parliament – prepare to decide whether to allow women to be bishops without giving concessions to staunch opponents.

Up to 600 clergy gave warning in a letter to Dr Williams that they may leave the Church unless they receive a legal right to havens within the Church free of women bishops.

In separate developments, three diocesan bishops wrote to the archbishop supporting the threat and two other bishops have said they are preparing to leave the Church. The letter from the Bishops of Chichester , Blackburn and Europe – seen by The Sunday Telegraph – argues that traditionalist clergy will not be able to “maintain an honoured place” in the Church without sufficient legislation.

“Clearly the ordination of women as bishops would divide the Church of England even more fundamentally than the ordination of women as priests,” it says.

article continues at link…

This may mean nothing and could actually be a way of Rome getting involved with those in disent to give them more power at Lamberth. As in forcing Lamberth to grant an exemption from female bishops in jurisdictions of Anglican which oppose it. This is the sticking point. If lambeth grants that things will settle down. Frankly I think that is what is going on here.

An Anglican Rite BTW would be very problematic IMO. Married priests suddenly common overnight in England and North America. I know of several young men who had a call but did not continue as theyw anted to marry. if there was an Anglican Rite in the US I think you’d see a lot of switching of Rites. Also with evangelical ministers who want to convert but feel called to ministry. They don’t convert because of this but many would presumably embrace an Anglican Rite. This would further hurt the celibate priesthood which is having a very hard time finding young men who are interested.

But then Rome may eventually eliminate the celibacy requirement. An Anglican Rite in the West would lead ultimately to an end to the celibate prieshood in the Western Rite IMO. I am not sure Rome is too comfortable with that.

And how will the bishops be chosen - local autonomy w/in the Rite. I think this would set the stage for Latin catholics in the US to demand more control over bishop approvals.

There are a lot of ramifications here.

 

[Hesychios]

…
An Anglican Rite BTW would be very problematic IMO. Married priests suddenly common overnight in England and North America. I know of several young men who had a call but did not continue as theyw anted to marry. if there was an Anglican Rite in the US I think you’d see a lot of switching of Rites. Also with evangelical ministers who want to convert but feel called to ministry. They don’t convert because of this but many would presumably embrace an Anglican Rite. This would further hurt the celibate priesthood which is having a very hard time finding young men who are interested.

But then Rome may eventually eliminate the celibacy requirement. An Anglican Rite in the West would lead ultimately to an end to the celibate prieshood in the Western Rite IMO. I am not sure Rome is too comfortable with that.

And how will the bishops be chosen - local autonomy w/in the Rite. I think this would set the stage for Latin catholics in the US to demand more control over bishop approvals.

There are a lot of ramifications here.

Some good points here.

For the record, up to this point the Vatican has refused to consider the Anglican liturgical tradition to be a rite, it is claimed to be nothing more than a variation of the Latin rite.

 

[Hesychios]

where is the queen on all of this?

The Queen has nothing at all to say about this, even if she does not like it.

Parliament and the Prime Minister are the powers over the Church of England. The person who decided upon Rowan Williams as Archbishop of Canterbury is now a Latin Catholic, how ironic.

There are just a very few parishes and institutions directly under the Queen, bypassing the Church of England hierarchy (and possibly parliamentary regulation), the so-called “Royal Peculiars”.

Michael

 

[Harpazo]

Some good points here.

For the record, up to this point the Vatican has refused to consider the Anglican liturgical tradition to be a rite, it is claimed to be nothing more than a variation of the Latin rite.

This is where I don’t see completely eye to eye with the Vatican. The Anglican liturgical tradition has changed over time and developed in a way to where it seems to me that it is its own tradition. I personally think it would be foolish if Rome didn’t grant the TAC sui iuris status.

I agree with some of what rien said also. There could be some implications of a married presbyterate in the US. However, are there not some Eastern Catholic Churches in the US that are allowed married clergy? I know Rome put a stop to married clergy in the late 1800s because some Latin bishops boohoo-ed about it. I think Rome could do this in implemented steps though, if they really started pushing for more monastic vocations and religious orders. Over time, then perhaps they could ease up on celibacy as a requirement for the Latin Church and both would be fine…

Don’t many (if not all) of the Eastern Churches, both Catholic and Orthodox, allow for a married presbyterate, but oftentimes choose their bishops from the monks?

Yet, I don’t know how many there are of these TAC parishes in the US. It might not cause much notice from your average Latin Catholics.

Alaha minokhoun,
Andrew

 

[emeraldcoast]

This may mean nothing and could actually be a way of Rome getting involved with those in disent to give them more power at Lamberth. As in forcing Lamberth to grant an exemption from female bishops in jurisdictions of Anglican which oppose it. This is the sticking point. If lambeth grants that things will settle down. Frankly I think that is what is going on here.

An Anglican Rite BTW would be very problematic IMO. Married priests suddenly common overnight in England and North America. I know of several young men who had a call but did not continue as theyw anted to marry. if there was an Anglican Rite in the US I think you’d see a lot of switching of Rites. Also with evangelical ministers who want to convert but feel called to ministry. They don’t convert because of this but many would presumably embrace an Anglican Rite. This would further hurt the celibate priesthood which is having a very hard time finding young men who are interested.

But then Rome may eventually eliminate the celibacy requirement. An Anglican Rite in the West would lead ultimately to an end to the celibate prieshood in the Western Rite IMO. I am not sure Rome is too comfortable with that.

And how will the bishops be chosen - local autonomy w/in the Rite. I think this would set the stage for Latin catholics in the US to demand more control over bishop approvals.

There are a lot of ramifications here.

Great points brought up in this post!

Peace!

 

[Peter_J]

This is where I don’t see completely eye to eye with the Vatican. The Anglican liturgical tradition has changed over time and developed in a way to where it seems to me that it is its own tradition. I personally think it would be foolish if Rome didn’t grant the TAC sui iuris status.

I agree with some of what rien said also. There could be some implications of a married presbyterate in the US. However, are there not some Eastern Catholic Churches in the US that are allowed married clergy? I know Rome put a stop to married clergy in the late 1800s because some Latin bishops boohoo-ed about it. I think Rome could do this in implemented steps though, if they really started pushing for more monastic vocations and religious orders. Over time, then perhaps they could ease up on celibacy as a requirement for the Latin Church and both would be fine…

Don’t many (if not all) of the Eastern Churches, both Catholic and Orthodox, allow for a married presbyterate, but oftentimes choose their bishops from the monks?

Yet, I don’t know how many there are of these TAC parishes in the US. It might not cause much notice from your average Latin Catholics.

Alaha minokhoun,
Andrew

I could see Rome possibly allowing them to be a Rite (as opposed to a usage of the Roman Rite), but I doubt that Rome would grant them sui iuris status. It’s a pretty firmly established/entrenched idea that there’s only one sui iuris church in the west (however many there may be in the east).