Tackling Predestination

[paul_c]

Are those words from Augustine? Can’t we just let Augustine speak for himself on this subject?
These are the great works of the Lord, sought out according to all His pleasure, and so wisely sought out, that when the intelligent creation, both angelic and human, sinned, doing not His will but their own, He used the very will of the creature which was working in opposition to the Creator’s will as an instrument for carrying out His will, the supremely Good thus turning to good account even what is evil, to the condemnation of those whom in His justice He has PREDESTINED TO PUNISHMENT,** and to the salvation of those whom in His mercy He has** PREDESTINED TO GRACE. For, as far as relates to their own consciousness, these creatures did what God wished not to be done: but in view of God’s omnipotence, they could in no wise effect their purpose. For in the very fact that they acted in opposition to His will, His will concerning them was fulfilled. And hence it is that “the works of the Lord are great, sought out according to all His pleasure,” because in a way unspeakably strange and wonderful, even what is done in opposition to His will does not defeat His will. For it would not be done did He not permit it (AND OF COURSE HIS PERMISSION IS NOT UNWILLING, BUT WILLING); nor would a Good Being permit evil to be done only that in His omnipotence He can turn evil into good.
(St. Augustine, Enchirid. Chapter 100)

Sure, they are words of Augustine. There are several quotes in that passage from the Catholic encyclopedia. Here are some more from other sources:
Whoever, then, refuses or resists this gift of the grace of God or is somehow apart from it up to the end of this temporal life….” 185:49, p. 206.
books.google.com/books?id=cJn…efox#PPA206,M1

“What is the drift of my words? This: since we realize the Last Day will come – it is well for us that we know it will come, and it is also well that we do not know when – we must keep our hearts in readiness be leading a good life, so that far from fearing its advent, we may even desire it. For as that day increases the woe of the unfaithful, so it puts an end to that of the faithful. As yet, before it comes, you have the power to decide which class you will belong to; once this will be beyond you. Chose, therefore, while there is time; for what God in His mercy conceals, He in mercy delays."
----FIRST DISCOURSE ON PSALM 36 (EXPOSITION 1 OF PSALM 36). books.google.com/books?q=+%22…G=Search+Books

“He is going to come as a judge, let us not bear the yoke with unbelievers. He is also going to resuscitate the corpses of the dead; let us deserve this transfiguration of the body by a transformation of our minds. He is going to set the bad on his left, the good on his right; LET US CHOOSE OUR PLACE WITH GOOD WORKS.” Sermon 229D: 1 “On the Holy Day of Easter.”

“Though faith, then, obtains justification, as God has also granted to each the measure of faith itself, no human merit precedes the grace of God, but grace itself merits an increase in order that, once increased, it may also merit to be made perfect with the will accompanying, not leading, following along, not preceding.” (Letter 186:10)

Augustine was very prolific. And its hard to make judgement on exactly his meaning from this one quote, which you’ve offered twice. Bottom line, the Catholic church clearly teaches that double predestination is a heresy. All men are called by God, all men have consciences that drive them toward the good and all men have a chance at salvation if they live lives of faith and love. God lives out of time and knows what men will choose, but it is still the man that makes the choice. Augustine was in agreement with Catholic teaching on this, I am sure you will agree.

 

[benedictus2]

Dag gum Noah always stealing Jonah’s show.

And several thousand years dead at that too

OOppps!

Actually, think about it. There’s only one letter of difference between their name

 

[benedictus2]

I hesitate to respond as the people involved in this thread have been so enlighting. One more participant may create a log jam and the “good stuff” get loss in the “OK stuff.” I would particularly like to complement your excellent eye openers (as I have done in a previous post).

I only ask for clarification. Does Love = a will?
That is, a will to have good done to a beloved.

Or is this will an attribute of love (“accident” as the logicians call it)?

Pray we are not getting off subject!

Yes, it is to will to have good done to a beloved. The last phrase “as other” is very important because this willing of the good is completely without any self interest and completely for the sake of the other. And no, as far as I understand it, the willing is not an attribute or accident.

And thank you for your kind words.

 

[Procorus]

Sure, they are words of Augustine. There are several quotes in that passage from the Catholic encyclopedia. Here are some more from other sources:
Whoever, then, refuses or resists this gift of the grace of God or is somehow apart from it up to the end of this temporal life….” 185:49, p. 206.
books.google.com/books?id=cJn…efox#PPA206,M1

“What is the drift of my words? This: since we realize the Last Day will come – it is well for us that we know it will come, and it is also well that we do not know when – we must keep our hearts in readiness be leading a good life, so that far from fearing its advent, we may even desire it. For as that day increases the woe of the unfaithful, so it puts an end to that of the faithful. As yet, before it comes, you have the power to decide which class you will belong to; once this will be beyond you. Chose, therefore, while there is time; for what God in His mercy conceals, He in mercy delays."
----FIRST DISCOURSE ON PSALM 36 (EXPOSITION 1 OF PSALM 36). books.google.com/books?q=+%22…G=Search+Books

“He is going to come as a judge, let us not bear the yoke with unbelievers. He is also going to resuscitate the corpses of the dead; let us deserve this transfiguration of the body by a transformation of our minds. He is going to set the bad on his left, the good on his right; LET US CHOOSE OUR PLACE WITH GOOD WORKS.” Sermon 229D: 1 “On the Holy Day of Easter.”

“Though faith, then, obtains justification, as God has also granted to each the measure of faith itself, no human merit precedes the grace of God, but grace itself merits an increase in order that, once increased, it may also merit to be made perfect with the will accompanying, not leading, following along, not preceding.” (Letter 186:10)

Augustine was very prolific. And its hard to make judgement on exactly his meaning from this one quote, which you’ve offered twice. Bottom line, the Catholic church clearly teaches that double predestination is a heresy. All men are called by God, all men have consciences that drive them toward the good and all men have a chance at salvation if they live lives of faith and love. God lives out of time and knows what men will choose, but it is still the man that makes the choice. Augustine was in agreement with Catholic teaching on this, I am sure you will agree.

The Church condemns the Calvinistic double-predestination as heresy, but accepts the Augustinian position as a school of thought within orthodoxy. Let me show you the difference between the position of Calvin, the heretic, and Augustine, the great Doctor of the Church, regarding this matter.

Calvin, the heretic, was a Supralapsarianist. He taught that God’s decree to elect and reprobate (in eternity past) precedes the divine decree to Create and to permit the Fall. This then would make God the author of Sin. This is such a monstrous doctrine, which the Church rightly condemns.

Augustine, on the other hand, was an Amyraldist. He believed that God’s decree (in eternity past) to Create and Permit the Fall precedes His decree to elect and reprobate. For how can God elect and reprobate people which do not exist? So in eternity past, God has first decreed that he will Create, then the decree to* Permit the Fall*. And foreseeing that Man would fall in Sin and be miserably entangled therein with his free will (by God’s bare permission), He then unconditionally chose those whom he would infallibly redeem through his effectual Grace (election), then passed over the rest and left them on their own will which is “free” (unconstrained) but not “free” (enslaved in Sin) due to their own fault.

See, Calvin believed in an active reprobation, while Augustine believed in a reprobation which is but an implication of God’s election.

 

[paul_c]

The Church condemns the Calvinistic double-predestination as heresy, but accepts the Augustinian position as a school of thought within orthodoxy. Let me show you the difference between the position of Calvin, the heretic, and Augustine, the great Doctor of the Church, regarding this matter.

Calvin, the heretic, was a Supralapsarianist. He taught that God’s decree to elect and reprobate (in eternity past) precedes the divine decree to Create and to permit the Fall. This then would make God the author of Sin. This is such a monstrous doctrine, which the Church rightly condemns.

Augustine, on the other hand, was an Amyraldist. He believed that God’s decree (in eternity past) to Create and Permit the Fall precedes His decree to elect and reprobate. For how can God elect and reprobate people which do not exist? So in eternity past, God has first decreed that he will Create, then the decree to* Permit the Fall*. And foreseeing that Man would fall in Sin and be miserably entangled therein with his free will (by God’s bare permission), He then unconditionally chose those whom he would infallibly redeem through his effectual Grace (election), then passed over the rest and left them on their own will which is “free” (unconstrained) but not “free” (enslaved in Sin) due to their own fault.

See, Calvin believed in an active reprobation, while Augustine believed in a reprobation which is but an implication of God’s election.

I understand your distinction between Calvin and Augustine, but your distinction does not square with the Augustine quotes in the last few posts. Augustine said that men had the power to decide their ultimate destiny. He also said that God knew what they would choose.

Lets face it, double predestination is a heresy. I would stop using that term to describe Augustine’s view. This article about the controversies of Grace is very good at describing the differences between the various schools of through.
newadvent.org/cathen/06710a.htm

 

[Procorus]

I understand your distinction between Calvin and Augustine, but your distinction does not square with the Augustine quotes in the last few posts. Augustine said that men had the power to decide their ultimate destiny. He also said that God knew what they would choose.

Lets face it, double predestination is a heresy. I would stop using that term to describe Augustine’s view. This article about the controversies of Grace is very good at describing the differences between the various schools of through.
newadvent.org/cathen/06710a.htm

Did I ever say that Augustine taught that men don’t have the power to decide their ultimate destiny? Did I ever say that God did not foreknew what men would choose?

Like what I’ve been asserting eversince my first posts on this thread, Augustine believed in Free Will - that man is not constrained or forced by anything outside themselves to choose or decide according to who and what he is.

The Augustinian position on Free Will is a Compatibilist view, which means that God’s Predestination is absolutely compatible with man having a free will. Here’s how they are compatible in the Augustinian position:1) Free-will is defined as man’s freedom to choose according to who and what he is.
2) It is God who determines who and what people will be. He is the Potter, we are the clay.
3) Therefore, our every will, whether good or bad, is ultimately at the disposal of God. It is God who determines the factors which would affect how we would respond and act freely.
4) In this sense, God foreknew what men would choose.
5) Thus, God’s foreknowledge is not founded ultimately upon what his creatures would do, but rather what He himself would do.
Augustine wrote:Let us, then, understand the calling whereby they become elected,— not those who are elected because they have believed, but who are elected that they may believe. For the Lord Himself also sufficiently explains this calling when He says, “You have not chosen me, but I have chosen you.” (Jn. 15:16) For if they had been elected because they had believed, they themselves would certainly have first chosen Him by believing in Him, so that they should deserve to be elected. But He takes away this supposition altogether when He says, “You have not chosen me, but I have chosen you.” And yet they themselves, beyond a doubt, chose Him when they believed on Him.
(On Predestination of the Saints, Ch. 34 [xvii])
And again,
And assuredly, if this were said because God foreknew that they would believe, not because He Himself would make them believers, the Son is speaking against such a foreknowledge as that when He says, “You have not chosen me, but I have chosen you;” when God should rather have foreknown this very thing, that they themselves would have chosen Him, so that they might deserve to be chosen by Him. Therefore they were elected before the foundation of the world with that predestination in which God foreknew what He Himself would do; but they were elected out of the world with that calling whereby God fulfilled that which He predestinated. (Ibid.)
Therefore, those passages from Augustine that you’ve quoted does not IN ANY WAY contradict his position that God is absolutely sovereign even over men’s free will.

 

[paul_c]

Did I ever say that Augustine taught that men don’t have the power to decide their ultimate destiny? Did I ever say that God did not foreknew what men would choose?

Like what I’ve been asserting eversince my first posts on this thread, Augustine believed in Free Will - that man is not constrained or forced by anything outside themselves to choose or decide according to who and what he is.

The Augustinian position on Free Will is a Compatibilist view, which means that God’s Predestination is absolutely compatible with man having a free will. Here’s how they are compatible in the Augustinian position:1) Free-will is defined as man’s freedom to choose according to who and what he is.
2) It is God who determines who and what people will be. He is the Potter, we are the clay.
3) Therefore, our every will, whether good or bad, is ultimately at the disposal of God. It is God who determines the factors which would affect how we would respond and act freely.
4) In this sense, God foreknew what men would choose.
5) Thus, God’s foreknowledge is not founded ultimately upon what his creatures would do, but rather what He himself would do.
Augustine wrote:Let us, then, understand the calling whereby they become elected,— not those who are elected because they have believed, but who are elected that they may believe. For the Lord Himself also sufficiently explains this calling when He says, “You have not chosen me, but I have chosen you.” (Jn. 15:16) For if they had been elected because they had believed, they themselves would certainly have first chosen Him by believing in Him, so that they should deserve to be elected. But He takes away this supposition altogether when He says, “You have not chosen me, but I have chosen you.” And yet they themselves, beyond a doubt, chose Him when they believed on Him.
(On Predestination of the Saints, Ch. 34 [xvii])
And again,
And assuredly, if this were said because God foreknew that they would believe, not because He Himself would make them believers, the Son is speaking against such a foreknowledge as that when He says, "You have not chosen me, but I have chosen you;" when God should rather have foreknown this very thing, that they themselves would have chosen Him, so that they might deserve to be chosen by Him. Therefore they were elected before the foundation of the world with that predestination in which God foreknew what He Himself would do; but they were elected out of the world with that calling whereby God fulfilled that which He predestinated. (Ibid.)
Therefore, those passages from Augustine that you’ve quoted does not IN ANY WAY contradict his position that God is absolutely sovereign even over men’s free will.

All this is true, but this supports the predestination of the Saints, on which we are in agreement and are not debating. The point of debate is double predestination, where some are predestined for Hell. Nowhere in your quotes above does he say that men are predestined to hell. That is a heresy. All men are born with the opportunity for salvation. Did you read the link I provided above from the Catholic encyclopedia. I found it very, very helpful in sorting through this confusion when someone else pointed me to it…

 

[Procorus]

All this is true, but this supports the predestination of the Saints, on which we are in agreement and are not debating. The point of debate is double predestination, where some are predestined for Hell. Nowhere in your quotes above does he say that men are predestined to hell. That is a heresy. All men are born with the opportunity for salvation. Did you read the link I provided above from the Catholic encyclopedia. I found it very, very helpful in sorting through this confusion when someone else pointed me to it…

On the contrary, all men are born in Sin, miserably enslaved by its power, totally HOPELESS of Salvation. We are in agreement that God requires men to choose Him if they want to be saved, but the question is: how can men choose God if in their natural state as fallen beings they can neither will nor act anything good leading to Salvation UNLESS God graciously and effectually enables them? And who are those whom God graciously and effectually leads to the fullness of Salvation but the elect?

As to those quotes that I’ve given, I’ve given them to caution you not to take the Pelagian view on foreknowledge and predestination, which states that God’s Predestination is based on God’s foreknowledge of what men would do. That those whom God saw that would choose Him and persevere in holiness till the end, he has chosen; and that those whom God saw that would reject His grace, he condemned. Such a view has been refuted by Augustine when he asserted, according to the quotations above, that God’s foreknowledge with regards to Predestination pertains NOT to what men would do, but to what He himself would do. Augustine believed in an Unconditional Election and JUST Reprobation.

Concerning double-predestination, I’ve proven already that Augustine believed in a double Predestination, but not with the kind of what Calvin has advocated later on. Calvin believed in a positive reprobation, while we Augustinians believe in a** negative reprobation**. Haven’t I explained their distinctions already?

And what about the passage that I’ve quoted from Augustine which affirms a double-predestination view WORD-FOR-WORD? It seems to me that you are trying to ignoring it and hope it goes away. I would post the quote again:These are the great works of the Lord, sought out according to all His pleasure, and so wisely sought out, that when the intelligent creation, both angelic and human, sinned, doing not His will but their own, He used the very will of the creature which was working in opposition to the Creator’s will as an instrument for carrying out His will, the supremely Good thus turning to good account even what is evil, to the condemnation of those whom in His justice He has PREDESTINED TO PUNISHMENT,** and to the salvation of those whom in His mercy He has **PREDESTINED TO GRACE. For, as far as relates to their own consciousness, these creatures did what God wished not to be done: but in view of God’s omnipotence, they could in no wise effect their purpose. For in the very fact that they acted in opposition to His will, His will concerning them was fulfilled. And hence it is that “the works of the Lord are great, sought out according to all His pleasure,” because in a way unspeakably strange and wonderful, even what is done in opposition to His will does not defeat His will. For it would not be done did He not permit it (AND OF COURSE HIS PERMISSION IS NOT UNWILLING, BUT WILLING); nor would a Good Being permit evil to be done only that in His omnipotence He can turn evil into good.
(St. Augustine, Enchirid. Chapter 100)
How many predestination are there that you see in this quote? One? Three? If you blindly say “only one”, let me tell you, it’s TWO:

1. 
   *]to the condemnation of those whom in His justice He has PREDESTINED TO PUNISHMENT
   *]**AND to the salvation of those whom in His mercy He has **PREDESTINED TO GRACE
   
   I’ve been reading and studying Augustine for years, so I know better than you. And I know very well that you merely rely on second hand informations on what Augustine really believed, instead of consulting Augustine’s works directly. You don’t read Augustine, but I do.

 

[Procorus]

And please don’t forget to respond to my post #355. Thank you, and Godbless you.

 

[benedictus2]

You don’t read them, do you?
Both church fathers believe in the existence of Free Will, and they believe in Double Predestination at the same time. They taught that God is Sovereign even over man’s free will. In other words, he infallibly converts those whom he has elected, and he hardens those whom he reprobated according to his good pleasure. Augustine wrote:…and if this divine record be looked into carefully, it shows us that not only men’s good wills, which God Himself converts from bad ones, and, when converted by Him, directs to good actions and to eternal life, but also those which follow the world are so ENTIRELY at the disposal of God, that He turns them wherever He wills, and whenever He wills,— to bestow kindness on some, and to heap punishment on others, as He Himself judges right by a counsel most secret to Himself, indeed, but beyond all doubt most righteous.
(On Grace and Free Will, Ch. 44 [XX])

How do you reconcile this with a God that IS love?

How can you say that the will is free if God is sovereign over wills, and exercises this sovereignty arbitrarily?

Does it not seem to you that the above statement makes man a mere puppet?

How do you reconcile the above with these:

1 Tim 2:4 " This is good and pleasing to God our savior, who wills everyone to be saved and to come to knowledge of the truth."

2 Peter 3:9 "The Lord does not delay his promise, as some regard “delay,” but he is patient with you, **not wishing that any should perish **but that all should come to repentance.
Matthew 28: 11-20 "Then Jesus approached and said to them, “All power in heaven and on earth has been given to me. **Go, therefore, and make disciples of all **nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, until the end of the age.”

If all our wills are at the disposal of God, and He is capable of converting our wills if He so desires, and if as stated above in the scripture passages, He wishes that our wills will be converted to His will, then why is He not doing what He wills?

 

[benedictus2]

Read again (emphasis mine):…and if this divine record be looked into carefully, it shows us that not only men’s good wills, which God Himself converts from bad ones, and, when converted by Him, directs to good actions and to eternal life, but also those which follow the world are so ENTIRELY at the disposal of God, that He turns them wherever He wills, and whenever He wills,— to bestow kindness on some, and** to heap punishment on others, as He Himself judges right by a counsel most secret to Himself**, indeed, but beyond all doubt most righteous.
(On Grace and Free Will, Ch. 44 [XX])
I want to emphasis certain points on this particular Augustine quote:

1. 
   *]we have free will
   *]but our free will, whether good or bad, is ENTIRELY at the disposal of God
   *]God sovereignly converts the evil will of his elect into good ones, leading to Salvation;
   *] the same way as he does in the hearts of even wicked men whatsoever he wills, at the same time rendering to them according to their evil deeds (see Augustine’s “On Grace & Free Will”, Chapter 42).

1. 
   Then how can you say the will is free if it is totally at the disposal of God, and with regards the elect, He has actually overpowered their will with His own such that they cannot do anything but acquiesce to His will ?

 

[benedictus2]

God is punishing the wicked men for their evil deeds - that’s the Augustinian position. But Augustine also taught that God does what he pleases on man’s will, and that every will of man, whether good or bad, is entirely at God’s disposal. Augustine elsewhere said: Who can help trembling at those judgments of God by which He does in the hearts of even wicked men whatsoever He wills, at the same time rendering to them according to their deeds?
(St. Aug., On Grace and Free Will, Ch. 42 [XXI])
And again,It is, therefore, in the power of the wicked to sin; but that in sinning they should do this or that by that wickedness is not in their power, but in God’s, who divides the darkness and regulates it; so that hence even what they do contrary to God’s will is not fulfilled except it be God’s will.
(St. Augustine, On Predestination of the Saints, Chapter 33)Is it a heresy? No. Is it within the bounds of Orthodoxy? Yes.

I gave this analogy to Bengoshi and I give this analogy again to you.

Based on your above statement, it goes like this:

A parent knows that his children will be born deformed with the illness worsening as the day goes by resulting in the children being ulcerated in the insides and and bleeding through their pores.

The parent has this potion called Grace which when given to the child cures them surely and completely. Depending on the stage of the disease the recovery will be either slow or quick but recover, they will.

The parent chooses to give the potion to some of his children but purposely withholds the potion from others allowing the illness to take its excruciating and deadly course.

The parent says that he loves all his children and does not wish any of his children to die at all. Yet, inspite of this “will” and his capacity to save all through this potion of Grace, he gives the grace only to some so that he can ensure the gruesome death of the others.

Is that really God for you?

Whatever happened to “You made us for Yourself O Lord and our hearts are restless until they rest in You”?

 

[benedictus2]

The Church condemns the Calvinistic double-predestination as heresy, but accepts the Augustinian position as a school of thought within orthodoxy. Let me show you the difference between the position of Calvin, the heretic, and Augustine, the great Doctor of the Church, regarding this matter.

Calvin, the heretic, was a Supralapsarianist. He taught that God’s decree to elect and reprobate (in eternity past) precedes the divine decree to Create and to permit the Fall. This then would make God the author of Sin. This is such a monstrous doctrine, which the Church rightly condemns.

Augustine, on the other hand, was an Amyraldist. He believed that God’s decree (in eternity past) to Create and Permit the Fall precedes His decree to elect and reprobate.

**
But is there such a thing as eternity past? Isn’t God in the Kairos - in the Eternal Now?
**Past and Future are all concepts dependent on creation which alone is bound by space and time.

Secondly, if His creation preceded the decision to elect and reprobate. why allow the fall at all? Why allow sin to enter His creation if creation, as Genesis tells us is good?

Either way, by what you have said above, you cannot get away from the fact that god becomes the source of evil by allowing evil. And what we are talking about here now is no longer just evil on earth, which we say He permits to bring about a greater good. You are saying that He permits this evil here on earth to bring about a greater evil which is separation from Him for all eternity - damnation.

 

[Procorus]

How do you reconcile this with a God that IS love?

How can you say that the will is free if God is sovereign over wills, and exercises this sovereignty arbitrarily?

As an Augustinian, I firmly believe that God’s Sovereignty is perfectly compatible with man having a “free will.” I would rather let Augustine speak for me on that:*I think I have now discussed the point fully enough in opposition to those who vehemently oppose the grace of God, by which, however, THE HUMAN WILL IS NOT TAKEN AWAY, BUT CHANGED FROM BAD TO GOOD, and assisted when it is good. I think, too, that I have so discussed the subject, that it is not so much I myself as the inspired Scripture which has spoken to you, in the clearest testimonies of truth; and if this divine record be looked into carefully, it shows us that not only men’s good wills, which God Himself converts from bad ones, and, when converted by Him, directs to good actions and to eternal life, but also those which follow the world are SO ENTIRELY AT THE DISPOSAL OF GOD, that He turns them wherever He wills, and whenever He wills,— to bestow kindness on some, and to heap punishment on others, as He Himself judges right by a counsel most secret to Himself, indeed, but beyond all doubt most righteous. *
~ [St. Augustine, On Grace and Free Will, Ch. 41-xx]
And again,Now, why did they not stand by free will, but, with a will perplexed by fear, took to flight, were it not that God has the lordship even over men’s wills, and when He is angry turns to fear whomsoever He pleases? Was it not of their own will that the enemies of the children of Israel fought against the people of God, as led by Joshua, the son of Nun? And yet the Scripture says, “It was of the Lord to harden their hearts, that they should come against Israel in battle, that they might be exterminated.” (Joshua 11:20)
~ [Ibid.]
And again,And was it not likewise of his own will that the wicked son of Gera cursed King David? And yet what says David, full of true, and deep, and pious wisdom? What did he say to him who wanted to smite the reviler? “What,” said he, “have I to do with you, you sons of Zeruiah? Let him alone and let him curse, because the Lord has said unto him, Curse David. Who, then, shall say, Wherefore have you done so?” (2 Samuel 16:9-10) And then the inspired Scripture, as if it would confirm the king’s profound utterance by repeating it once more, tells us: “And David said to Abishai, and to all his servants, Behold, my son, which came forth from my bowels, seeks my life: how much more may this Benjamite do it! Let him alone, and let him curse; for the Lord has bidden him. It may be that the Lord will look on my humiliation, and will requite me good for his cursing this day.” (2 Samuel 16:11-12) Now what prudent reader will fail to understand in what way the Lord bade this profane man to curse David? It was not by a command that He bade him, in which case his obedience would be praiseworthy; but He INCLINED THE MAN’S WILL, which had become debased by his own perverseness, to commit this sin, by His own just and secret judgment.
~ [Ibid.]
And again,*Who can help trembling at those judgments of God by which He does in the hearts of even wicked men whatsoever He wills, at the same time rendering to them according to their deeds? …

… Both statements to be sure are true, because they both came by their own will, and yet the Lord stirred up their spirit; and this may also with equal truth be stated the other way: The Lord both stirred up their spirit, and yet they came of their own will. For the Almighty sets in motion even in the innermost hearts of men the movement of their will, so that He does through their agency whatsoever He wishes to perform through them—even He who knows not how to will anything in unrighteousness.*
~ [St. Augustine, On Grace and Free Will, Ch. 42-xxi]
And again (this passage refers to you, benedictus),Let those, therefore, not deceive themselves who ask: “Wherefore is it preached and prescribed to us that we should turn away from evil and do good, if it is not we that do this, but ‘God who works in us to will and to do it’?” (Philippians 2:13) But let them rather understand that if they are the children of God, they are led by the Spirit of God (Romans 8:14) to do that which should be done; and when they have done it, let them give thanks to Him by whom they act. For they are acted upon that they may act, not that they may themselves do nothing…
~ [St. Augustine, On Rebuke and Grace, Ch. 4]
I have many more to show, but I will not post them all here. I personally think these statements from Augustine are clear enough to explain the compatibility between God’s Sovereignty and Man’s Free Will.

 

[Procorus]

How do you reconcile the above with these:

1 Tim 2:4 " This is good and pleasing to God our savior, who wills everyone to be saved and to come to knowledge of the truth."

2 Peter 3:9 "The Lord does not delay his promise, as some regard “delay,” but he is patient with you, **not wishing that any should perish **but that all should come to repentance.
Matthew 28: 11-20 "Then Jesus approached and said to them, “All power in heaven and on earth has been given to me. **Go, therefore, and make disciples of all **nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, until the end of the age.”

If all our wills are at the disposal of God, and He is capable of converting our wills if He so desires, and if as stated above in the scripture passages, He wishes that our wills will be converted to His will, then why is He not doing what He wills?

In the Augustinian tradition, there is a distinction between God’s passive will and God’s decreetive will. While it is true that God passively wills the Salvation of all, yet in his eternal decree His effectual redemption is graciously granted only to those whom he has elected. Man may go against the passive will of God, but they can never defeat His divine purpose and plan. As it is written:“Many plans are in a man’s heart, but the LORD’s decree will prevail” (Prov. 19:21)
It does not say, “many are the decrees of the Lord for man, but it is man’s ‘free will’ that will prevail”, but rather, “Many are the plans in a man’s heart, but the LORD’s decree will prevail”. Thus, Augustine wrote:
But however strong may be the purposes either of angels or of men, whether of good or bad, whether these purposes fall in with the [passive] will of God or run counter to it, the [decree] of the Omnipotent is never defeated; and His [decree] never can be evil; because even when it inflicts evil it is just, and what is just is certainly not evil. The omnipotent God, then, whether in mercy He pities whom He will, or in judgment hardens whom He will, is never unjust in what He does, never does anything except of His own free-will, and never [decrees] anything that He does not perform.
~ [St. Augustine, Enchiridon, Ch. 102]

 

[paul_c]

On the contrary, all men are born in Sin, miserably enslaved by its power, totally HOPELESS of Salvation. We are in agreement that God requires men to choose Him if they want to be saved, but the question is: how can men choose God if in their natural state as fallen beings they can neither will nor act anything good leading to Salvation UNLESS God graciously and effectually enables them? And who are those whom God graciously and effectually leads to the fullness of Salvation but the elect?

As to those quotes that I’ve given, I’ve given them to caution you not to take the Pelagian view on foreknowledge and predestination, which states that God’s Predestination is based on God’s foreknowledge of what men would do. That those whom God saw that would choose Him and persevere in holiness till the end, he has chosen; and that those whom God saw that would reject His grace, he condemned. Such a view has been refuted by Augustine when he asserted, according to the quotations above, that God’s foreknowledge with regards to Predestination pertains NOT to what men would do, but to what He himself would do. Augustine believed in an Unconditional Election and JUST Reprobation.

Concerning double-predestination, I’ve proven already that Augustine believed in a double Predestination, but not with the kind of what Calvin has advocated later on. Calvin believed in a positive reprobation, while we Augustinians believe in a** negative reprobation**. Haven’t I explained their distinctions already?

And what about the passage that I’ve quoted from Augustine which affirms a double-predestination view WORD-FOR-WORD? It seems to me that you are trying to ignoring it and hope it goes away. I would post the quote again:These are the great works of the Lord, sought out according to all His pleasure, and so wisely sought out, that when the intelligent creation, both angelic and human, sinned, doing not His will but their own, He used the very will of the creature which was working in opposition to the Creator’s will as an instrument for carrying out His will, the supremely Good thus turning to good account even what is evil, to the condemnation of those whom in His justice He has PREDESTINED TO PUNISHMENT,** and to the salvation of those whom in His mercy He has **PREDESTINED TO GRACE. For, as far as relates to their own consciousness, these creatures did what God wished not to be done: but in view of God’s omnipotence, they could in no wise effect their purpose. For in the very fact that they acted in opposition to His will, His will concerning them was fulfilled. And hence it is that “the works of the Lord are great, sought out according to all His pleasure,” because in a way unspeakably strange and wonderful, even what is done in opposition to His will does not defeat His will. For it would not be done did He not permit it (AND OF COURSE HIS PERMISSION IS NOT UNWILLING, BUT WILLING); nor would a Good Being permit evil to be done only that in His omnipotence He can turn evil into good.
(St. Augustine, Enchirid. Chapter 100)
How many predestination are there that you see in this quote? One? Three? If you blindly say “only one”, let me tell you, it’s TWO:

1. 
   *]to the condemnation of those whom in His justice He has PREDESTINED TO PUNISHMENT
   *]AND to the salvation of those whom in His mercy He has PREDESTINED TO GRACE
   
   I’ve been reading and studying Augustine for years, so I know better than you. And I know very well that you merely rely on second hand informations on what Augustine really believed, instead of consulting Augustine’s works directly. You don’t read Augustine, but I do.

1. 
   The question at hand isn’t who has read more of Augustine’s works. The question is what is the Catholic view of double predestination. I can tell you in no uncertain terms that double predestination is a heresy in the Catholic Church. Check it out for yourself. Read the Catholic Encyclopedia article I gave you or maybe better read Part 3 of the Catholic Catechism: Life in Christ.
   
   And by the way, I am not denying the necessity of Grace in Salvation, which was the heresy of the pelegians, Who thought that by works alone was man saved. Nor am I with the Calvinists, who deny that man’s works on earth effect his salvation. The Catholic position is middle ground between these two extremes, Recognizing the need for Grace and Good works in the economy of salvation. No man is predestined to hell. God calls ALL men to himself. Not all answer affirmatively.

 

[Procorus]

The question at hand isn’t who has read more of Augustine’s works. The question is what is the Catholic view of double predestination. I can tell you in no uncertain terms that double predestination is a heresy in the Catholic Church. Check it out for yourself. Read the Catholic Encyclopedia article I gave you or maybe better read Part 3 of the Catholic Catechism: Life in Christ.

And by the way, I am not denying the necessity of Grace in Salvation, which was the heresy of the pelegians, Who thought that by works alone was man saved. Nor am I with the Calvinists, who deny that man’s works on earth effect his salvation. The Catholic position is middle ground between these two extremes, Recognizing the need for Grace and Good works in the economy of salvation. No man is predestined to hell. God calls ALL men to himself. Not all answer affirmatively.

The Catholic position condemns the Supralapsarian double Predestination, but accepts the Augustinian position as within the bounds of orthodoxy. Otherwise, are you willing to consider we, Augustinians, as heretics?

 

[paul_c]

Originally Posted by paul c
You are assigning a heresy to Augustine which he is not guilty of. In the fourth bullet above, God is punishing the wicked men for their evil deeds, not because he willed them to do evil. They did evil on their own.

If you are trying to imply that Augustine says that God wills men to do evil, you are wrong.
And yes, stating that God is the originator of any evil is clearly a heresy.

 

[shaky]

Sure, they are words of Augustine. There are several quotes in that passage from the Catholic encyclopedia. Here are some more from other sources:
Whoever, then, refuses or resists this gift of the grace of God or is somehow apart from it up to the end of this temporal life….” 185:49, p. 206.
books.google.com/books?id=cJn…efox#PPA206,M1

“What is the drift of my words? This: since we realize the Last Day will come – it is well for us that we know it will come, and it is also well that we do not know when – we must keep our hearts in readiness be leading a good life, so that far from fearing its advent, we may even desire it. For as that day increases the woe of the unfaithful, so it puts an end to that of the faithful. As yet, before it comes, you have the power to decide which class you will belong to; once this will be beyond you. Chose, therefore, while there is time; for what God in His mercy conceals, He in mercy delays."
----FIRST DISCOURSE ON PSALM 36 (EXPOSITION 1 OF PSALM 36). books.google.com/books?q=+%22…G=Search+Books

“He is going to come as a judge, let us not bear the yoke with unbelievers. He is also going to resuscitate the corpses of the dead; let us deserve this transfiguration of the body by a transformation of our minds. He is going to set the bad on his left, the good on his right; LET US CHOOSE OUR PLACE WITH GOOD WORKS.” Sermon 229D: 1 “On the Holy Day of Easter.”

“Though faith, then, obtains justification, as God has also granted to each the measure of faith itself, no human merit precedes the grace of God, but grace itself merits an increase in order that, once increased, it may also merit to be made perfect with the will accompanying, not leading, following along, not preceding.” (Letter 186:10)

Augustine was very prolific. And its hard to make judgement on exactly his meaning from this one quote, which you’ve offered twice. Bottom line, the Catholic church clearly teaches that double predestination is a heresy. All men are called by God, all men have consciences that drive them toward the good and all men have a chance at salvation if they live lives of faith and love. God lives out of time and knows what men will choose, but it is still the man that makes the choice. Augustine was in agreement with Catholic teaching on this, I am sure you will agree.

Hi Paul

{You say God lives out of time and space and knows what men will Choose}

According to Augustine if Gods Judgment is dependant on Knowing who would choose
This goes against the Sovereignty Of Gods choice and Gives Man Sovereignty Over his choice.

According to the bible you have to be CHOSEN First.
Then you WILL have the ability to CHOOSE

What you are saying you WILL have to CHOOSE first.
Then you will be CHOSEN.

 

[benedictus2]

In the Augustinian tradition, there is a distinction between God’s passive will and God’s decreetive will. While it is true that God passively wills the Salvation of all, yet in his eternal decree

But is that distinction correct? Is God divided within Himself, willing one way and another at the same time?

Also, is there such a thing as God’s** de-creative** will? If it is de-creative then it will be towards non-existence not damnation in a suffering existence.
His effectual redemption is graciously granted only to those whom he has elected. Man may go against the passive will of God, but they can never defeat His divine purpose and plan. As it is written:“Many plans are in a man’s heart, but the LORD’s decree will prevail” (Prov. 19:21)
It does not say, “many are the decrees of the Lord for man, but it is man’s ‘free will’ that will prevail”, but rather, “Many are the plans in a man’s heart, but the LORD’s decree will prevail”. Thus, Augustine wrote: But however strong may be the purposes either of angels or of men, whether of good or bad, whether these purposes fall in with the [passive] will of God or run counter to it, the [decree] of the Omnipotent is never defeated; and His [decree] never can be evil; because even when it inflicts evil it is just, and what is just is certainly not evil. The omnipotent God, then, whether in mercy He pities whom He will, or in judgment hardens whom He will, is never unjust in what He does, never does anything except of His own free-will, and never [decrees] anything that He does not perform.
~ [St. Augustine, Enchiridon, Ch. 102]

How can you say that it is just for a person to will into existence someone that He intends to punish to all eternity.