Tackling Predestination

[Procorus]

If you are trying to imply that Augustine says that God wills men to do evil, you are wrong.

Well, it depends on what you mean by “God’s will”.
If you are referring to the divine precept (which is always passive), then I would agree with you. But if you are referring to the *divine decree *(which is active), then you are wrong to say that God has not included in His plan the sins of the wicked men to effect a greater good. If you don’t believe me, at least take heed to what Augustine has to say on that: These are the great works of the Lord, sought out according to all His pleasure, and so wisely sought out, that when the intelligent creation, both angelic and human, sinned, doing not His will but their own, He used the very will of the creature which was working in opposition to the Creator’s will (i.e. precept) as an instrument for carrying out His will (i.e. decree), the supremely Good thus turning to good account even what is evil, to the condemnation of those whom in His justice He has predestined to punishment, and to the salvation of those whom in His mercy He has predestined to grace. For, as far as relates to their own consciousness, these creatures did what God wished not to be done: but in view of God’s omnipotence, they could in no wise effect their purpose. For in the very fact that they acted in opposition to His will (i.e. precept), His will (i.e. decree) concerning them was fulfilled. And hence it is that “the works of the Lord are great, sought out according to all His pleasure,” because in a way unspeakably strange and wonderful, even what is done in opposition to His will (i.e. precept) does not defeat His will (i.e. decree). For it would not be done did He not permit it (and of course His permission is not unwilling, but willing); nor would a Good Being permit evil to be done only that in His omnipotence He can turn evil into good.
~ [St. Augustine, Enchiridon, Ch. 100]

And yes, stating that God is the originator of any evil is clearly a heresy.

I agree. Augustine rejected such idea as well.

 

[benedictus2]

As an Augustinian, I firmly believe that God’s Sovereignty is perfectly compatible with man having a “free will.” I would rather let Augustine speak for me on that:I think I have now discussed the point fully enough in opposition to those who vehemently oppose the grace of God, by which, however, THE HUMAN WILL IS NOT TAKEN AWAY, BUT CHANGED FROM BAD TO GOOD, and assisted when it is good. I think, too, that I have so discussed the subject, that it is not so much I myself as the inspired Scripture which has spoken to you, in the clearest testimonies of truth; and if this divine record be looked into carefully, it shows us that not only men’s good wills, which God Himself converts from bad ones, and, when converted by Him, directs to good actions and to eternal life, but also those which follow the world are SO ENTIRELY AT THE DISPOSAL OF GOD, that He turns them wherever He wills, and whenever He wills,— to bestow kindness on some, and to heap punishment on others, as He Himself judges right by a counsel most secret to Himself, indeed, but beyond all doubt most righteous.
~ [St. Augustine, On Grace and Free Will, Ch. 41-xx]

I have no problem with the will being changed from bad to good.

But the point we are discussing is precisely this mechanism whereby the will is changed from bad to good.

When the will is still bad, is it capable of resisting the irresistible grace? If not then the will is not free. It would be like a tiny ball berring in the face of a gigantic magnet.

I do not doubt that God works like that in some cases.

But if this is the case, then our cooperation is not required and so we are back to being puppets.

If grace is irresistible such then the will is not free to resist it.

 

[benedictus2]

Hi Paul

{You say God lives out of time and space and knows what men will Choose}

According to Augustine if Gods Judgment is dependant on Knowing who would choose
This goes against the Sovereignty Of Gods choice and Gives Man Sovereignty Over his choice.

According to the bible you have to be CHOSEN First.
Then you WILL have the ability to CHOOSE

What you are saying you WILL have to CHOOSE first.
Then you will be CHOSEN.

I don’t think this is our bone of contention at all.

I think we all agree that we have to be chosen first. The question is whether God chooses only some and not others.

Basically what is being proposed is that God chooses some and ensures that they will choose Him by giving them the grace to choose Him. God does not choose some, thereby denying them the grace to choose Him to ensure that they are damned.

 

[Procorus]

But is that distinction correct? Is God divided within Himself, willing one way and another at the same time?

Also, is there such a thing as God’s** de-creative** will? If it is de-creative then it will be towards non-existence not damnation in a suffering existence.
It is not de-creative, it is decree-tive, referring to God’s eternal plans that he has determined to accomplish in eternity past.
benedictus2;6860475:

How can you say that it is just for a person to will into existence someone that He intends to punish to all eternity.

The question whether God is just or not in Predestination hangs on the question whether God owes us anything which obliges Him to save us. If God is obliged to save us, then it is right to say that God had been unjust in electing only some and reprobate the rest. But “who has ever first given to Him, and has to be repaid. For from Him and through Him and to Him are all things”? (Rom. 11:35).

“What should we say then? Is there injustice with God? Absolutely not! For He tells Moses: I will show mercy to whom I show mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion. So then it does not depend on human will or effort, but on God who shows mercy.” (Rom. 9:14-16)

 

[benedictus2]

In the Augustinian tradition, there is a distinction between God’s passive will and God’s decreetive will. While it is true that God passively wills the Salvation of all, yet in his eternal decree His effectual redemption is graciously granted only to those whom he has elected. Man may go against the passive will of God, but they can never defeat His divine purpose and plan. As it is written:

Procorus, can you explain how you understand “passive will?”

Wouldn’t passive will be like desire? And then there’s the active will when you put the desire into action?

So for you the situation is like this: This diety is lazily reclining there thinking to himself - Hmmm I really want to save all these miserable people". Gets up, proceeds to save some but not others. So basically he works agains his own desire. Now if God’s is intergrated within Himself why would His passive will be at war with His active will?

 

[Procorus]

I have no problem with the will being changed from bad to good.
Good.

But the point we are discussing is precisely this mechanism whereby the will is changed from bad to good.

Okay, let’s proceed.

When the will is still bad, is it capable of resisting the irresistible grace? If not then the will is not free. It would be like a tiny ball berring in the face of a gigantic magnet.

We don’t believe in* irresistible grace*, we believe in infallible grace.
Infallible grace is “grace that always accomplishes it purpose” –nothing more or less. Infallible grace can be resisted, but is not. Infallible grace can fail, but does not. There is no ontological/metaphysical necessity associated with infallible grace.** Irresistible grace**, on the other hand, is “grace that accomplishes it purpose through metaphysical necessity.” With irresistible grace, the will is overrun by the force of grace. It cannot be resisted. The difference between the two is that of necessity and certainty. Infallible grace is certain, but not necessary. Irresistible grace on the other hand, is certain because it is necessary.

For us, Augustinians, due to original sin, the trajectory of the free sinful will is always away from God, for lost in the corruption of original sin, the human mind is no longer able to perceive God as the soul’s greatest good. Yet through the illumination of the Holy Spirit, the mind beholds the infinite majesty of the divine glory and becomes convinced of the truth. Thus convinced, the will freely—and infallibly—submits to God. Again, it is like a buyer and a seller. The buyer may be unwilling to buy at the beginning of the sale, but as the salesman “enlightens” the buyer to the wisdom of the purchase, the buyer becomes freely willing to engage in the transaction. The salesman does not negate the buyer’s freedom in order to close the deal—there is no hypnosis or necessity that “forces” the buyer to buy. The buyer freely chooses to buy because he has now become convinced that it is in his best interest to do so. Perhaps a profane analogy, but God is like the consummate salesman. There is no heart to which he cannot sell his grace.

 

[Procorus]

Procorus, can you explain how you understand “passive will?”

Wouldn’t passive will be like desire? And then there’s the active will when you put the desire into action?

So for you the situation is like this: This diety is lazily reclining there thinking to himself - Hmmm I really want to save all these miserable people". Gets up, proceeds to save some but not others. So basically he works agains his own desire. Now if God’s is intergrated within Himself why would His passive will be at war with His active will?

Please read post #377.
And correction, it is not de-CREATIVE, it is DECREE-tive. In other words, “God’s eternal plans that he has determined to accomplish in eternity past”.

 

[benedictus2]

It is not de-creative, it is decree-tive, referring to God’s eternal plans that he has determined to accomplish in eternity past.

Okay. But how come God’s passive and decreetive will are at war with each other. It seems like he does not really know what he wants.

The question whether God is just or not in Predestination hangs on the question whether God owes us anything which obliges Him to save us.

No ti does not. That is to completely misunderstand our objection. We know that God owes us nothing.

But, our objection lies in the things that we know about God which cannot be reconciled with predestination.

First would be scripture - the ones I cited and the others that I have cited to both Bengoshi and Peter Holter.

Second - We know God IS love. It is not just a facet or Him, Love IS Him.

Third - We know that God is Just.

Fourth: We know that God created everything, every single one of us.

Fifth: God created man with Free Will.

So any discussion of salvation and damnation must take into account all of these. Not just some. We cannot just keep retreating into the statment " Oh But God is supreme and we cannot question Him."

Because, we are not questioning Him. We are questioning you and for that matter if you are presenting him well St Augustine.

As I have said before, the Church to whim the guidance of the Holy Spirit is given when it comes to matters of faith and morals has not decreed St Augustine’s position a dogma. So it is okay to question him.

Don’t get me wrong. I love St Augustine. Especially his famous quote that I noted above which cannot be reconciled with his presentation of predestination unless of course I have missed an aspect of his explanation.

I think it will help our discussion if we can all agree on the answer to this question: Why did God create and why does He continue creating?

 

[paul_c]

The Catholic position condemns the Supralapsarian double Predestination, but accepts the Augustinian position as within the bounds of orthodoxy. Otherwise, are you willing to consider we, Augustinians, as heretics?

No, I just don’t think you are describing Augustine’s view properly… The mystery between Grace and free will is a tricky one. because it requires marrying two concepts that seem to be mutually exclusive, yet we hold both to be true. Augustine attacks the problem from the base of God’s sovereignty, as did Aquinas, and then tried to describe why man’s free will was not violated. Molina, on the other hand, started from the basis of man’s free will and then tried to describe why God’s sovereignty was not violated. All these systems are simply theological constructs that can’t be proven and in the end aren’t all that important. What is important is the two ramifications for Man : to do good works of our own free will. and also to recognize that we owe everything to God.

 

[benedictus2]

Good.

Okay, let’s proceed.

We don’t believe in* irresistible grace*, we believe in infallible grace.
Infallible grace is “grace that always accomplishes it purpose” –nothing more or less. Infallible grace can be resisted, but is not. Infallible grace can fail, but does not. There is no ontological/metaphysical necessity associated with infallible grace.** Irresistible grace**, on the other hand, is “grace that accomplishes it purpose through metaphysical necessity.” With irresistible grace, the will is overrun by the force of grace. It cannot be resisted. The difference between the two is that of necessity and certainty. Infallible grace is certain, but not necessary. Irresistible grace on the other hand, is certain because it is necessary.

I am not quite sure that that distinction is correct. Infallibility is to effect. Only irresistible grace can be said to lead to infallible conclusion. If grace is not irresistible then the objective of that grace which is goodness, fails. However, if grace is irresistible, then the infallible conclusion is accomplished and goodness ensues.

If infallible grace can be resisted then why is it not resisted? The only way infallible grace will not be resisted is if it is irresistible.

You said infallible grace can fail but does not. If it is infallible then how can it at the same time be fallible?

 

[benedictus2]

No, I just don’t think you are describing Augustine’s view properly… The mystery between Grace and free will is a tricky one. because it requires marrying two concepts that seem to be mutually exclusive, yet we hold both to be true.

Yes, yes, yes. That is why the contention between the Molinist and the Thomist is when does Grace become efficacious?

 

[benedictus2]

Please read post #377.
And correction, it is not de-CREATIVE, it is DECREE-tive. In other words, “God’s eternal plans that he has determined to accomplish in eternity past”.

Yes, I did see that correction when I was about to reply to your other post.

But here you use again “eternity past”. Logically, there is not even such a thing. Eternity means time that is unachievalbe. Once you get into past time, then it has already been achieved.

When I first wrote my post #110 for another thread, I closed it would some sort of a disclaimer as to how this all sits with the idea of the Eternal Now because that has to be taken into consideration csince all God’s decrees happen in that Now while we are in this time/space continuum.

 

[Procorus]

Okay. But how come God’s passive and decreetive will are at war with each other. It seems like he does not really know what he wants.

I must admit I myself don’t know the exact answer.
All I know, according to the divine testimony, is that God passively wills all men to be saved, but not all men are saved because God has decreed in eternity to elect only a few number of undeserving people, out of the total number of fallen mankind, unto the fullness of Salvation.

While it seems contradictory to the human understanding, yet I still believe these revelations are both true - even if I can’t fully understand how to reconcile them now using my own frail human logic. My main duty, as a Christian, is to believe as truth whatever God has revealed to mankind for them to believe as truth, not to fully understand them or even question them. Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and the knowledge of God! How unsearchable His judgments and untraceable His ways! For who has known the mind of the Lord? Or who has been His counselor? Or who has ever first given to Him, and has to be repaid? **For from Him and through Him and to Him are all things. To Him be the glory forever. Amen. (Rom. 11:33-36)

 

[Procorus]

Second - We know God IS love. It is not just a facet or Him, Love IS Him.

Predestination does not take away God’s nature of beingThe Love himself. Paul wrote:
for He chose us in Him, before the foundation of the world, to be holy and blameless in His sight. IN LOVE He predestined us to be adopted through Jesus Christ for Himself, according to His favor and will, to the praise of His glorious grace that He favored us with in the Beloved. (Eph. 1:4-6)

Third - We know that God is Just.

Again, we can only rightly say that God is unjust in His predestination if God owes us something which obliges Him to save us. But since all of us, in our natural state as fallen beings, are deserving to be eternally punished in hell (which undoubtedly is most righteous), then even if none were delivered therefrom, there would be no just cause for finding fault with God. Thus, Paul wrote:* What should we say then? Is there injustice with God? Absolutely not!** For He tells Moses: I will show mercy to whom I show mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.* *So then it does not depend on human will or effort, but on God who shows mercy. *(Rom. 9:14-16)

Fourth: We know that God created everything, every single one of us.

Not only did God create everything, but He also “works out everything” in conformity with (or to sovereignly accomplish) His eternal decrees:In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according** to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will**, (Eph. 1:11)

Fifth: God created man with Free Will.

But this Free Will can never defeat/destroy whatever God has immutably planned, as it is written:
*Many plans are in a man’s heart, but the LORD’s decree will prevail. *(Prov. 19:21)

 

[benedictus2]

I must admit I myself don’t know the exact answer.
All I know, according to the divine testimony, is that God passively wills all men to be saved, but not all men are saved because God has decreed in eternity to elect only a few number of undeserving people, out of the total number of fallen mankind, unto the fullness of Salvation.

But this is just it. You DON’T know that. Perhaps St Augustine conjectured that there is such a thing as God’s passive will but no, we don’t know that He indeed has one.

If there is one thing that we also know about God, is that God is a unity. If there is anything that we know about the devil is that he is a scatterer.

This divided heart to me speaks not of God but more of someone who has succumbed to the subtleties of the devil.

In the Martha and Mary scene, Jesus emphasizes this. Martha is too busy about many, Mary is interested in only One.

While it seems contradictory to the human understanding, yet I still believe these revelations are both true - even if I can’t fully understand how to reconcile them now using my own frail human logic. My main duty, as a Christian, is to believe as truth whatever God has revealed to mankind for them to believe as truth, not to fully understand them or even question them.

That I believe is my duty too. But I believe that my duty as a Christian is to believe as truth that which the Church teaches.

It was only two years ago I think that i learned that we believe in predestination, courtesy of this forum and via Sandusky, a presbyterian member.

When I first found out about it there was only shock horror. Then after reading what the Church teaches I sort of thought, yes, I can buy our position.

But just when I thought I’d put that to bed, another member asked me to summarize the difference between the Thomist and Mollinist view. It took me a week to even sort this through in my head. What filled me with depression was reading St Thomas’s view (which is essentially Augustinian). It was so close to Calvinism. It was like finding out that your mother was a lady of the night. It was quite devastating to me.

I thought how can the Church teach this? But God reminded me of that line that I used on Protestants who l I have debated in this forum - that the bone of contention is really infallibility, because if one believes that the Church is Christ’s church, then it stands to reason that all her doctrine’s are true. So even without understanding I said to God that in obedience , I believe. I do not have to understand. I believe.

The surprising thing is once I said that I believe in obedience, little by little I saw glimmers of light in this seeming darkness and was finally able to put something relatively coherent (at least to me), the end result being my post 110. There was this idea of the Kairos that I sort of thought through in order to incorporate into what I wrote but found the coherence there rather elusive.

So yes, I believe in what the Church teaches and I try to explain as best as I can within the bounds of what the Church teaches as to how predestination works.

In her wisdom, she has not given a decree as to how this all works.

Perhaps someday she will decree this or maybe the Molinist view a dogma, or maybe something else. When that happens I will believe what she decrees because I know it will be true.

Perhaps also, that is something that God wants us to find out only when we are on the other side of eternity.

 

[Pitcharan]

I must admit I myself don’t know the exact answer.
All I know, according to the divine testimony, is that God passively wills all men to be saved, but not all men are saved because God has decreed in eternity to elect only a few number of undeserving people, out of the total number of fallen mankind, unto the fullness of Salvation.

While it seems contradictory to the human understanding, yet I still believe these revelations are both true - even if I can’t fully understand how to reconcile them now using my own frail human logic. My main duty, as a Christian, is to believe as truth whatever God has revealed to mankind for them to believe as truth, not to fully understand them or even question them.

Even if an inspired explanation is offered, all you bookish theologians can only frown upon it and will not even consider it worth looking at. You can continue snubbing me but God will vindicate me. My explanation of the Holy Trinity which is quite different from St. Augustine’s Treatise, has already been accepted by three renowned theologians (a Redemptorist, a Capuchin and a Diocesan) and also published with my Bishop’s permission.

Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and the knowledge of God! How unsearchable His judgments and untraceable His ways! For who has known the mind of the Lord? Or who has been His counselor? Or who has ever first given to Him, and has to be repaid? **For from Him and through Him and to Him are *all ***things. To Him be the glory forever. Amen. (Rom. 11:33-36)

“For who has known the mind of the Lord that he may instruct him?” But we have the mind of Christ. (1 Cor 2:16)

 

[Marc_Anthony]

I believe once upon a time I was the original poster.

 

[Pitcharan]

I believe once upon a time I was the original poster.

I humbly invite you to listen to my views by reading these posts:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=6859759#post6859759

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=6859881#post6859881

Thanks and regards
Pitcharan

 

[shaky]

In the Augustinian tradition, there is a distinction between God’s passive will and God’s decreetive will. While it is true that God passively wills the Salvation of all, yet in his eternal decree His effectual redemption is graciously granted only to those whom he has elected. Man may go against the passive will of God, but they can never defeat His divine purpose and plan. As it is written:“Many plans are in a man’s heart, but the LORD’s decree will prevail” (Prov. 19:21)
It does not say, “many are the decrees of the Lord for man, but it is man’s ‘free will’ that will prevail”, but rather, “Many are the plans in a man’s heart, but the LORD’s decree will prevail”. Thus, Augustine wrote:
But however strong may be the purposes either of angels or of men, whether of good or bad, whether these purposes fall in with the [passive] will of God or run counter to it, the [decree] of the Omnipotent is never defeated; and His [decree] never can be evil; because even when it inflicts evil it is just, and what is just is certainly not evil. The omnipotent God, then, whether in mercy He pities whom He will, or in judgment hardens whom He will, is never unjust in what He does, never does anything except of His own free-will, and never [decrees] anything that He does not perform.
~ [St. Augustine, Enchiridon, Ch. 102]

Hi Procorus

This has certainly happened to Me: When God called me at 33 years of age I was in the middle of my Snooker career. I was a professional Snooker player: I Really loved the Game
I Loved compertition. I wanted God to help me with my Life and the plans that i had made
For my Life. I had been playing for 13 years. It was my Dream it was my Life. I was happy
because i was doing what i really Enjoyed.
When i came to the realisation about Jesus Christ and salvation. I happly took the free Gift
of salvation.
I got myself baptised and started reading the Bible especially the book of John.
I Soon Realised that there was more to this then meets the eye.
I began to realise i had to Turn away from the WORLD and selfish Ambition.
World championship Snooker: It was my ambition to become world champion.
Deny myself take up my cross daily and follow Jesus.
I wanted salvation. but to willingly turn away from Snooker I found was Impossible
But i read Jesus said with man it is impossible but with God all things are possible

I Just decided to carry on with what i was doing and take no notice. After Arguing with God for a few years over this. I told God do as you please I hand my life over to you. I was incapable of packing up snooker and it all seemed unfair to me.
I even tried bargaining with God by saying Look According to your word you are a God of miracles.
My friend John who is a Cripple in a wheelchair suffering with mutable sclerosis.
If You fully heal him Back to normal. I will pack up snooker and do your will fully 24/7 that is a promise. I thought to myself if God dose this i will be fully committed. God did not do as i requested. So i thought i will carry on with snooker. After a few more years went by
My standered went to world class. I had the full self confidence to Win a tournament.
God Knew this because this was what he was waiting for. It was 7 years now since i came to Christ. And really i had not done much serving God only a bit.

Out came the ROD of God. Nasty God severely chastised me. I Just had my 40Th birthday. A thought came into my head. There is a saying Life begins at 40. weeks later i was diagnosed bowel Cancer. I was devastated.
After 2 operations. Radiation treatment+ chemotherapy. I was left with medical problems
That has left me with a Infirmity which i am still living with today!! {I am 52}
I have not Picked my Cue up for the past 10 years. {To me this is a miracle}
Surviving Cancer till today this is another miracle

What i went through was physically and emotionally was very painful. I am very grateful and thank God for putting me through all this. I love God he is all i think about when i wake up to the moment i go to sleep. I have nothing else to live for now I only live for God 24/7 Before snooker was my God. I am a totally changed person.

 

[Bengoshi]

As an Augustinian, I firmly believe that God’s Sovereignty is perfectly compatible with man having a “free will.”

My prayers are with you in trying to convince Benedictus2 of the doctrine of reprobation!

She’s so hung up that God is love that she seems to forget all of God’s other attributes. As a Christian of the Reformed camp, I agree with everything you said. I also already explained in my posts that God’s decision to condemn some people is indeed passive in nature, also called “preterition”. I myself, am infralapsarian. Not all Calivinists are supralapsarian. In fact, a lot of the professors at Reformed Theological Seminary are infralapsarian, such as Dr. Douglas Kelly and Dr. Derek W. H. Thomas.

She also fails to distinguish between “causing” evil and “allowing” evil. Obviously, these are two different concepts. Allowing something to happen does not mean that God is the source or actor of that thing which He allowed. What you call passive will and decreetive will we call “revealed will” and “secret will”. His revealed will are those found in the Scriptures, while His secret will are those things which He did not reveal to us in His Word (Deut. 29:29).

God’s activity is only with respect to Hiss willful choosing to pass over some, thereby condemning them as a result; but is passive in such a way that God does not make them do evil, for evil is already the natural inclination of man’s heart (Gen. 6:5). He just lets them be. Hence, they receive justice. Those whom God has elected to salvation, on the other hand, receive mercy. There is no injustice.

My last observation is that Benedictus2 just simply finds it difficult to trust that God’s choices are all good. Since God is the standard of goodness Himself, then we are in no position to judge whether or not God’s choices are evil or wrong. If God wills it, then it is GOOD!

God bless you!