Tackling Predestination

[dcastlen50]

It should be stated that when we say that infants are “innocent,” we mean that they are innocent of having committed any personal sins; but they are not innocent concerning original sin. And we believe that “the souls of those who depart this life in actual mortal sin, or in original sin alone, go down straightaway to hell to be punished, but with unequal pains” (Council of Florence). We are not born innocent, but are conceived in original sin and are therefore “by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind” (Ephesians 2:3; cf. Psalm 51:5).

In Christ,
Pete

Wow! I don’t believe you could be anymore clear. But for my benefit, are you saying those not baptized as infants go to hell, but a hell where there are degrees of punishment and these little ones go to the least of punishments?.:imsorry::imsorry::frighten:

If that is what you are saying, than I need to especially be on my knees in thanks. Can you give me, in additon to what you noted (council of Florence), where this is found in the Catechism - if it is and where to find it in the writing of The Council of Florence?

Thank you very much

 

[thegrons]

God forgives all sin past present and future? Not biblical and logically absurd. This stems from the Penal Substitution Theory of the atonement and not the bible. Steven when he was being stoned said “Father don’t hold this sin against them” and 1 John 1:9 along with James tells us that we must ask forgiveness. Revelation tells us that at some point the stench of sin will pile so high that God will call it quits and begin with the tribulation judgements.

Most Calvinists et al Christians don’t understand what grace is. Paul tells us in Romans 6 “you are not under law but grace, therefore sin shall not have dominion over you” and in Titus he says “the grace of God has appeared teaching men to say no to sin”. Grace is the power to live above sin; it is not ability for a Christian to sin daily and still be in good standing with God.

 

[paul_c]

God forgives all sin past present and future? Not biblical and logically absurd. This stems from the Penal Substitution Theory of the atonement and not the bible. Steven when he was being stoned said “Father don’t hold this sin against them” and 1 John 1:9 along with James tells us that we must ask forgiveness. Revelation tells us that at some point the stench of sin will pile so high that God will call it quits and begin with the tribulation judgements.

Most Calvinists et al Christians don’t understand what grace is. Paul tells us in Romans 6 “you are not under law but grace, therefore sin shall not have dominion over you” and in Titus he says “the grace of God has appeared teaching men to say no to sin”. Grace is the power to live above sin; it is not ability for a Christian to sin daily and still be in good standing with God.

Well said.

 

[MarcoPolo]

Wow! I don’t believe you could be anymore clear. But for my benefit, are you saying those not baptized as infants go to hell, but a hell where there are degrees of punishment and these little ones go to the least of punishments?.:imsorry::imsorry::frighten:

Fear not, you can go to heaven even if you are baptized later in life. As for infants who die prior to being baptized, the Church does not declare for certain one way or the other. However, the Church has stated the following positive comment:CCC#1261 As regards children who have died without Baptism, the Church can only entrust them to the mercy of God, as she does in her funeral rites for them. Indeed, the great mercy of God who desires that all men should be saved, and Jesus’ tenderness toward children which caused him to say: “Let the children come to me, do not hinder them,” allow us to hope that there is a way of salvation for children who have died without Baptism. All the more urgent is the Church’s call not to prevent little children coming to Christ through the gift of holy Baptism.

 

[jericho777]

And where in this text does it ay that the “whom” does not mean “all”.

All this text says is that it is God’s prerogative. Nothing here indicates that it means He will have mercy on some but not on others based on eeny, meeny, miny, mo.

If you are referring to the quotes above, it does not say that at all. you are correct, He has the ability to save all. But where does it say that HE CHOOSES NOT TO?

It is God’s soverign grace that chooses us for His Glory apart from anything that we do.
Rom 9:11-13Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad—in order that God’s purpose in election might stand: 12not by works but by him who calls—she was told, “The older will serve the younger.”d 13Just as it is written: “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”

He did this for the elect.
Rom 9:22-24 What if God, choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction? 23What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory— 24even us, whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles?

 

[jericho777]

How about this:

Where does it say that this will be the only ones who have and will be chosen.

Where does it say that only a few have been predestined. all it says is the grace has been given through Jesus Chrsit,

I will cut it here as I am sleepy.

But note the highlighted text in blue.

Well, God **foreknew us all **because He created us all. So extend that thought to the rest of the text.

1 Was ment to show it was God’s for knowledge that elects us.

2 This is the point of this one has saved us and called us to a holy life—not because of anything we have done but because of his own purpose and grace.]

3 Just shows that it is God who calls and saves us totally. It’s not of us.

 

[paul_c]

1 Was ment to show it was God’s for knowledge that elects us.

2 This is the point of this one has saved us and called us to a holy life—not because of anything we have done but because of his own purpose and grace.]

3 Just shows that it is God who calls and saves us totally. It’s not of us.

God calls us all to be holy and he gives all of us free will. You can’t be saved without God, but he won’t save you against your will either. He wants us all to come to him willingly.

As Augustine put it:newadvent.org/cathen/02091a.htm
Between these two extreme opinions Augustine formulated (not invented) the Catholic dogma, which affirms these two truths at the same time:

• the eternal choice of the elect by God is very real, very gratuitous, and constitutes the grace of graces;
• but this decree does not destroy the Divine will to save all men, which, moreover, is not realized except by the human liberty that leaves to the elect full power to fall and to the non-elect full power to rise

.

Now in the Divine decree, according to Augustine, and according to the Catholic Faith on this point, which has been formulated by him, the two elements pointed out above appear:

• The certain and gratuitous choice of the elect — God decreeing, indeed, to create the world and to give it such a series of graces with such a concatenation of circumstances as should bring about freely, but infallibly, such and such results (for example, the despair of Judas and the repentance of Peter), decides, at the same time, the name, the place, the number of the citizens of the future heavenly Jerusalem. The choice is immutable; the list closed. It is evident, indeed, that only those of whom God knows beforehand that they will wish to co-operate with the grace decreed by Him will be saved. It is a gratuitous choice, the gift of gifts, in virtue of which even our merits are a gratuitous benefit, a gift which precedes all our merits. No one, in fact, is able to merit this election. God could, among other possible worlds, have chosen one in which other series of graces would have brought about other results. He saw combinations in which Peter would have been impenitent and Judas converted. It is therefore prior to any merit of Peter, or any fault of Judas, that God decided to give them the graces which saved Peter and not Judas. God does not wish to give paradise gratuitously to any one; but He gives very gratuitously to Peter the graces with which He knows Peter will be saved. — Mysterious choice! Not that it interferes with liberty, but because to this question: Why did not God, seeing that another grace would have saved Judas, give it to him? Faith can only answer, with Augustine: O Mystery! O Altitudo! (De Spiritu et litterâ, xxxiv, n. 60).
• But this decree includes also the second element of the Catholic dogma: the very sincere will of God to give to all men the power of saving themselves and the power of damning themselves. According to Augustine, God, in his creative decree, has expressly excluded every order of things in which grace would deprive man of his liberty, every situation in which man would not have the power to resist sin, and thus Augustine brushes aside that predestinationism which has been attributed to him. Listen to him speaking to the Manichæans: “All can be saved if they wish”; and in his “Retractations” (I, x), far from correcting this assertion, he confirms it emphatically: “It is true, entirely true, that all men can, if they wish.” But he always goes back to the providential preparation. In his sermons he says to all: “It depends on you to be elect” (In Ps. cxx, n. 11, etc.); “Who are the elect? You, if you wish it” (In Ps. lxxiii, n. 5). But, you will say, according to Augustine, the lists of the elect and reprobate are closed. Now if the non-elect can gain heaven, if all the elect can be lost, why should not some pass from one list to the other? You forget the celebrated explanation of Augustine: When God made His plan, He knew infallibly, before His choice, what would be the response of the wills of men to His graces. If, then, the lists are definitive, if no one will pass from one series to the other, it is not because anyone cannot (on the contrary, all can), it is because God knew with infallible knowledge that no one would wish to. Thus I cannot effect that God should destine me to another series of graces than that which He has fixed, but, with this grace, if I do not save myself it will not be because I am not able, but because I do not wish to.

 

[jericho777]

God calls us all to be holy and he gives all of us free will. You can’t be saved without God, but he won’t save you against your will either. He wants us all to come to him willingly.

As Augustine put it:newadvent.org/cathen/02091a.htm
Between these two extreme opinions Augustine formulated (not invented) the Catholic dogma, which affirms these two truths at the same time:

• the eternal choice of the elect by God is very real, very gratuitous, and constitutes the grace of graces;
• but this decree does not destroy the Divine will to save all men, which, moreover, is not realized except by the human liberty that leaves to the elect full power to fall and to the non-elect full power to rise

.

Now in the Divine decree, according to Augustine, and according to the Catholic Faith on this point, which has been formulated by him, the two elements pointed out above appear:

• The certain and gratuitous choice of the elect — God decreeing, indeed, to create the world and to give it such a series of graces with such a concatenation of circumstances as should bring about freely, but infallibly, such and such results (for example, the despair of Judas and the repentance of Peter), decides, at the same time, the name, the place, the number of the citizens of the future heavenly Jerusalem. The choice is immutable; the list closed. It is evident, indeed, that only those of whom God knows beforehand that they will wish to co-operate with the grace decreed by Him will be saved. It is a gratuitous choice, the gift of gifts, in virtue of which even our merits are a gratuitous benefit, a gift which precedes all our merits. No one, in fact, is able to merit this election. God could, among other possible worlds, have chosen one in which other series of graces would have brought about other results. He saw combinations in which Peter would have been impenitent and Judas converted. It is therefore prior to any merit of Peter, or any fault of Judas, that God decided to give them the graces which saved Peter and not Judas. God does not wish to give paradise gratuitously to any one; but He gives very gratuitously to Peter the graces with which He knows Peter will be saved. — Mysterious choice! Not that it interferes with liberty, but because to this question: Why did not God, seeing that another grace would have saved Judas, give it to him? Faith can only answer, with Augustine: O Mystery! O Altitudo! (De Spiritu et litterâ, xxxiv, n. 60).
• But this decree includes also the second element of the Catholic dogma: the very sincere will of God to give to all men the power of saving themselves and the power of damning themselves. According to Augustine, God, in his creative decree, has expressly excluded every order of things in which grace would deprive man of his liberty, every situation in which man would not have the power to resist sin, and thus Augustine brushes aside that predestinationism which has been attributed to him. Listen to him speaking to the Manichæans: “All can be saved if they wish”; and in his “Retractations” (I, x), far from correcting this assertion, he confirms it emphatically: “It is true, entirely true, that all men can, if they wish.” But he always goes back to the providential preparation. In his sermons he says to all: “It depends on you to be elect” (In Ps. cxx, n. 11, etc.); “Who are the elect? You, if you wish it” (In Ps. lxxiii, n. 5). But, you will say, according to Augustine, the lists of the elect and reprobate are closed. Now if the non-elect can gain heaven, if all the elect can be lost, why should not some pass from one list to the other? You forget the celebrated explanation of Augustine: When God made His plan, He knew infallibly, before His choice, what would be the response of the wills of men to His graces. If, then, the lists are definitive, if no one will pass from one series to the other, it is not because anyone cannot (on the contrary, all can), it is because God knew with infallible knowledge that no one would wish to. Thus I cannot effect that God should destine me to another series of graces than that which He has fixed, but, with this grace, if I do not save myself it will not be because I am not able, but because I do not wish to.

Hi Paul yes I agree totally with your first point.

While there is a true battle of the wills. It is God who gives the elect a new will/nature that they can follow His will. The lost can not will to follow God. It is God who calls and completes our salvation. Jesus is the author and finisher of our faith.
Rom 8:29-30 For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. ***30And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified. ***
As God chose Peter not Judas, the one thief and not the other, Jacob and not Esau so He also chose us. He chose us apart from anything we do. We are all worthy of Hell but by His grace and mercy we are saved. As you see it is Him who totally saves us from ourselves.

 

[paul_c]

Hi Paul yes I agree totally with your first point.

While there is a true battle of the wills. It is God who gives the elect a new will/nature that they can follow His will. The lost can not will to follow God. It is God who calls and completes our salvation. Jesus is the author and finisher of our faith.
Rom 8:29-30 For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. ***30And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified. ***
As God chose Peter not Judas, the one thief and not the other, Jacob and not Esau so He also chose us. He chose us apart from anything we do. We are all worthy of Hell but by His grace and mercy we are saved. As you see it is Him who totally saves us from ourselves.

He saves us from ourselves, but we need to cooperate with that grace… We have free will and can chose not to be saved.

 

[paul_c]

This morning’s Gospel was inspirational in this regard (Matthew 9: 9-13)

9 As Jesus passed on from there, he saw a man named Matthew sitting at the customs post. He said to him, “Follow me.” And he got up and followed him.
10 While he was at table in his house, many tax collectors and sinners came and sat with Jesus and his disciples.
11 The Pharisees saw this and said to his disciples, “Why does your teacher eat with tax collectors and sinners?”
12 He heard this and said, “Those who are well do not need a physician, but the sick do.
13 Go and learn the meaning of the words, ‘I desire mercy, not sacrifice.’ I did not come to call the righteous but sinners.”

And how about these parables from Luke Chapter 15:

1 The tax collectors and sinners were all drawing near to listen to him,
2 but the Pharisees and scribes began to complain, saying, “This man welcomes sinners and eats with them.”
3 So to them he addressed this parable.
4 "What man among you having a hundred sheep and losing one of them would not leave the ninety-nine in the desert and go after the lost one until he finds it?
5 And when he does find it, he sets it on his shoulders with great joy
6 and, upon his arrival home, he calls together his friends and neighbors and says to them, ‘Rejoice with me because I have found my lost sheep.’
7 I tell you, in just the same way there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous people who have no need of repentance.
8 “Or what woman having ten coins and losing one would not light a lamp and sweep the house, searching carefully until she finds it?
9 And when she does find it, she calls together her friends and neighbors and says to them, ‘Rejoice with me because I have found the coin that I lost.’
10 In just the same way, I tell you, there will be rejoicing among the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”

In fact the rest of Luke 15 is the story of the Prodigal son, another parable about God’s willingness to save the repentant.

These are some of the supporting scripture to the Catholic viewpoint that men can change their path from hell to heaven through repentence.

The other point that is interesting is that both Matthew 9:13 and Luke 15-7, note that there are some who are righteous with no need for repentence. And we know from scripture that Elijah was assumed directly into heaven. This is of course a special grace from God - those that are righteous would never presume to having done it on their own. what is significant is that they are called righteous.- meaning that they did what was right. This means they took action in accordance with God’s wishes.- consistent with Catholic doctrine.

 

[shaky]

That’s not a complete picture. That actually describes Pelagianism which believes we can come to God w/o the aid of His grace. God does not violate man’s will, but empowers it with grace. Without grace, man cannot will to come to God in the first place. So it would be more accurate for you to say “determined by the grace-powered will of man.” So the glory is ultimately all God’s.

It is the essence of the parable of the talents. The Master gives talents to 3 men. 2 of them go out and are fruitful with the gifts. God rewards them. The other guy denies the gift. He is punished. The first 2 could not do what they did without first receiving the free gift, i.e. the talents represent grace.

Hi MarcoPolo

What i am trying to work out Does he give that grace to all men or is there some he dose
not bother with because of his foreknowledge?
God seemed to Hate ESUA before he was born and knew he would sell his birthright to Jacob when he was starving. When Esau never give it him. Jacob Lied and deceived to get the birthright. I thought lying was Sin. Does that mean you can lie for right Reasons?
If God Knows Everything from when we are born till the day we die were is the free will
in that?
Why would he hate all of Esau’s Descendants is it to do with genes?
They had no chance.

On the Jacobs Line of descendants his favoured people Israel. Only a remnant will be saved. Only a remnant is chosen by Grace the scriptures say.

It seems to me the Majority of people have got No chance and the Ones that have a Chance to only a Remnant will be saved.
God foreknows all of this. Does that mean we have to be chosen by grace first before we have the ability to Choose.

 

[dcastlen50]

This morning’s Gospel was inspirational in this regard (Matthew 9: 9-13)

9 As Jesus passed on from there, he saw a man named Matthew sitting at the customs post. He said to him, “Follow me.” And he got up and followed him.
10 While he was at table in his house, many tax collectors and sinners came and sat with Jesus and his disciples.
11 The Pharisees saw this and said to his disciples, “Why does your teacher eat with tax collectors and sinners?”
12 He heard this and said, “Those who are well do not need a physician, but the sick do.
13 Go and learn the meaning of the words, ‘I desire mercy, not sacrifice.’ I did not come to call the righteous but sinners.”

And how about these parables from Luke Chapter 15:

1 The tax collectors and sinners were all drawing near to listen to him,
2 but the Pharisees and scribes began to complain, saying, “This man welcomes sinners and eats with them.”
3 So to them he addressed this parable.
4 "What man among you having a hundred sheep and losing one of them would not leave the ninety-nine in the desert and go after the lost one until he finds it?
5 And when he does find it, he sets it on his shoulders with great joy
6 and, upon his arrival home, he calls together his friends and neighbors and says to them, ‘Rejoice with me because I have found my lost sheep.’
7 I tell you, in just the same way there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous people who have no need of repentance.
8 “Or what woman having ten coins and losing one would not light a lamp and sweep the house, searching carefully until she finds it?
9 And when she does find it, she calls together her friends and neighbors and says to them, ‘Rejoice with me because I have found the coin that I lost.’
10 In just the same way, I tell you, there will be rejoicing among the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”

In fact the rest of Luke 15 is the story of the Prodigal son, another parable about God’s willingness to save the repentant.

These are some of the supporting scripture to the Catholic viewpoint that men can change their path from hell to heaven through repentence.

The other point that is interesting is that both Matthew 9:13 and Luke 15-7, note that there are some who are righteous with no need for repentence. And we know from scripture that Elijah was assumed directly into heaven. This is of course a special grace from God - those that are righteous would never presume to having done it on their own. what is significant is that they are called righteous.- meaning that they did what was right. This means they took action in accordance with God’s wishes.- consistent with Catholic doctrine.

 

[MarcoPolo]

What i am trying to work out Does he give that grace to all men or is there some he dose
not bother with because of his foreknowledge?

I don’t think the Scriptural text affords the understanding that God withholds grace to anyone. Scripture says He wills the salvation of all men, that grace has appeared to all nations, God delivered all to disobedience that He might have mercy on all, etc…

Also I have never quite understood why the idea of God’s foreknowledge would take away anyone’s free will exercised in time and space.

 

[paul_c]

Hi MarcoPolo

What i am trying to work out Does he give that grace to all men or is there some he dose
not bother with because of his foreknowledge?

God gives grace to all men. This is scripturally clear. “God causes the sun to shine on the good and the bad alike”. He came to call sinners to himself. There’s a multitude of scriptural support for this, including the passages I copied at the end of page 6 in this thread.

God seemed to Hate ESUA before he was born and knew he would sell his birthright to Jacob when he was starving. When Esau never give it him. Jacob Lied and deceived to get the birthright. I thought lying was Sin. Does that mean you can lie for right Reasons?

God knew what would happen because he is all knowing and is outside of time. Anyway, we are all tested with Successes and Failures in life to see whether we will chose to do God’s will or to separate ourselves from God. And despite the fact that Esau sold his birthright, he still became a great nation. He was not chosen to have the Savior in his line, but that didn’t mean that he couldn’t aspire to heaven. And while God can make good come out of bad, that is never an excuse to sin.

If God Knows Everything from when we are born till the day we die were is the free will
in that?

We definitely have free will. God knows what we will do because he doesn’t live within time and is all knowing. Just because he can predict what we will do, doesn’t mean he is actually making our decisions for us. For instance, we all know that
certain people on this thread will take positions consistent with the Catholic church, but that doesn’t mean that we are making the decision for them.

Why would he hate all of Esau’s Descendants is it to do with genes?
They had no chance.

Nothing says that God hated all of Esau’s descendents. While they were not the chosen people, they also weren’t hated.

On the Jacobs Line of descendants his favoured people Israel. Only a remnant will be saved. Only a remnant is chosen by Grace the scriptures say.

It is true that just being a descendant of Jacob is insufficient to get you to heaven. You need to follow Jesus. And it doesn’t say that only a remnant are chosen by Grace. It says that the road is straight and the gate narrow that leads to heaven and few are those that find it. This means we have a hand in our own salvation.

It seems to me the Majority of people have got No chance and the Ones that have a Chance to only a Remnant will be saved.
God foreknows all of this. Does that mean we have to be chosen by grace first before we have the ability to Choose.

Everyone has a chance and Jesus came to call sinners to himself. The problem is that many people are too caught up in themselves to do what God asks of them…- to love God and neighbor without expecting anything in return. And many don’t seek the sacramental graces available from the church (baptism, eucharist, confirmation, reconciliation, annointing of the sick, marriage and holy orders) that will fortify them to do what is asked…

 

[MarcoPolo]

God gives grace to all men. This is scripturally clear. “God causes the sun to shine on the good and the bad alike”. He came to call sinners to himself. There’s a multitude of scriptural support for this, including the passages I copied at the end of page 6 in this thread.

Paul, you may want to point out the specific post #. My view settings are for 100 posts per page. So in this thread, I’m still on page 1.

 

[paul_c]

Paul, you may want to point out the specific post #. My view settings are for 100 posts per page. So in this thread, I’m still on page 1.

Wow, I didn’t realize that was an option…

 

[clmowry]

Has anybody ever met a Calvinist reprobate?

It has always amazed me that no matter how they have lived [or will live] their lives Calvinists are among the elect.

They believe it is right that “God” freely chose do damn others, but they are always blessed to be among the “chosen elect” themselves.

I wonder why Calvinists are so lucky?

Chuck

 

[jericho777]

He saves us from ourselves, but we need to cooperate with that grace… We have free will and can chose not to be saved.

It’s only by God working in us that we can live for Him. Our old will/nature is replaced by a new man with a new will/nature that our desire is for Him. Do we not long for Him?

 

[jericho777]

Has anybody ever met a Calvinist reprobate?

It has always amazed me that no matter how they have lived [or will live] their lives Calvinists are among the elect.

They believe it is right that “God” freely chose do damn others, but they are always blessed to be among the “chosen elect” themselves.

I wonder why Calvinists are so lucky?

Chuck

So should the Jews, God’s chosen people feel the same way?

 

[clmowry]

So should the Jews, God’s chosen people feel the same way?

Not even close.

In what possible way would being a Jewish resemble being among the Calvinistic “elect”?

I must have missed where the Jewish get out of hell free card is printed in the old testament.

Chuck