Tackling Predestination

[paul_c]

Hi paul.

I am a bit Confused about SAINTS. what is the difference?

At one pentecostal church i attended years ago; The pastor was preaching we are all Saints.

That was the pastor’s mistake. A Saint in this terminology is someone who leads a life of virtue that is suitable for immitation by the faithful. Clearly not everyone fits that description. Also, was he arguing that everyone goes to heaven? Did you believe him?

 

[paul_c]

Irresistible Grace is a phrase that is used to summarize what the Bible teaches about the supernatural work of the Holy Spirit in the salvation of sinners. It is represented by the “I” in the acronym TULIP that is commonly used to enumerate what are known as the five points of Calvinism or the Doctrines of Grace. The doctrine is also known as “Effectual Calling,” “Efficacious Grace,” “Efficacious Call of the Spirit,” and “Transformed by the Holy Spirit.” Each of these terms reveals some aspect of what the Bible teaches about the doctrine of irresistible grace. However what is important is not the name assigned to the doctrine but how accurately the doctrine summarizes what the Bible teaches about the nature and purpose of the work of the Holy Spirit in the salvation of sinful, spiritually dead men. No matter which name you use to refer to the doctrine of irresistible grace a through study of the Bible will reveal that when properly understood it is an accurate description of what the Bible teaches on this important subject.

The reason this doctrine is called “irresistible” grace is because it always results in the intended outcome, the salvation of the person it is given to. It is important to realize that the act of being regenerated or “born again” cannot be separated from the act of believing the Gospel. Ephesians 2:1-10 makes this clear. There is a clear connection between the act of being made alive by God (Ephesians 2:1,5) and the result of being saved by grace. (Ephesians 2:5,8). This is because everything pertaining to salvation, including the faith to believe, is an act of God’s grace. The reason God’s grace is irresistible and efficacious (always bringing forth the desired result) is because God “has delivered us from the power of darkness and conveyed us into” His kingdom (Colossians 1:13). Or as Psalm 3:8 puts it, “Salvation belongs to the Lord.”

To understand the doctrine of “Irresistible grace,” it is important to recognize that this is a special grace given only to those God has chosen for salvation (His elect) and is different from what is known as “common grace” which God bestows on both believer and the unbeliever. While there are many aspects of common grace, including life and all that is necessary to sustain it, common grace is what is often referred to as the “outward call of God.” This is God’s revelation of Himself given to all men through the light of creation and their consciences. It also includes the general call of the Gospel that goes out anytime the Gospel message is preached. This call can be resisted and rejected by those that receive it. (Matthew 22:14; Romans 1:18-32). However, God also gives an “inward call” which always results in salvation. This is the call of God that Jesus spoke of in John 6:37-47. The certainty of this inward call is seen in John 6:37: “All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out.” John 6:44 confirms this: “No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him and I will raise him up at the last day.”

A common misconception about the doctrine of irresistible grace is that it implies men are forced to accept Christ and men are dragged kicking and screaming into heaven. Of course neither of these are accurate descriptions of the doctrine of irresistible grace as revealed in the Bible. In fact the heart of irresistible grace is the transforming power of the Holy Spirit whereby He takes a man dead in his trespasses and sins and gives him spiritual life so that he can recognize the unsurpassing value of God’s offer of salvation. Then having been set free from the bondage of sin, that man willingly comes to Christ.

Another misconception concerning this doctrine is that it teaches the Holy Spirit cannot be resisted at all. Yet again that is not what the doctrine teaches because that is not what the Bible teaches. God’s grace can be resisted and the Holy Spirit’s influence can be resisted even by one of the elect. However what the doctrine does correctly recognize is that the Holy Spirit can overcome all such resistance and that He will draw the elect with an irresistible grace that makes them want to come to God and helps them to understand the Gospel so they can and will believe it.

The doctrine of irresistible grace simply recognizes that the Bible teaches God is sovereign and can overcome all resistance when He wills to. What God decrees or determines will come to pass always does. This truth is seen throughout Scripture. In Daniel 4:35 we see that “He does according to His will in the host of heaven and among the inhabitants of the earth; and none can stay His hand!” Psalm 115:3 declares, “Our God is in the heavens; He does whatever He pleases.” God’s grace in salvation is irresistible because when God sets out to fulfill His sovereign purpose, no person or thing can successfully resist Him.

Does irresistable grace in any way prove that God predestines one to hell? I can see where it would lead someone to heaven.

 

[paul_c]

What does it mean to be a born again Christian? The classic passage from the Bible that answers this question is John 3:1-21. The Lord Jesus Christ is talking to Nicodemus, a prominent Pharisee and member of the Sanhedrin (a ruler of the Jews). Nicodemus had come to Jesus at night. Nicodemus had questions to ask Jesus.

As Jesus talked with Nicodemus, He said, “’I tell you the truth, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again.’ ‘How can a man be born when he is old?’ Nicodemus asked. ‘Surely he cannot enter a second time into his mother’s womb to be born!’ Jesus answered, ‘I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit. Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit. You should not be surprised at my saying, ‘You must be born again’” (John 3:3-7).

The phrase “born again” literally means “born from above.” Nicodemus had a real need. He needed a change of his heart—a spiritual transformation. New birth, being born again, is an act of God whereby eternal life is imparted to the person who believes (2 Corinthians 5:17; Titus 3:5; 1 Peter 1:3; 1 John 2:29; 3:9; 4:7; 5:1-4, 18). John 1:12,13 indicates that “born again” also carries the idea “to become children of God” through trust in the name of Jesus Christ.

The question logically comes, “Why does a person need to be born again?” The Apostle Paul in Ephesians 2:1 says, “And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins…” (NKJV). To the Romans in Romans 3:23, the Apostle wrote, “For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.” So, a person needs to be born again in order to have their sins forgiven and have a relationship with God.

How does that come to be? Ephesians 2:8-9 states, “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—not by works, so that no one can boast.” When one is “saved,” he/she has been born again, spiritually renewed, and is now a child of God by right of new birth. Trusting in Jesus Christ, the One who paid the penalty of sin when He died on the cross, is what it means to be “born again” spiritually. “Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation: the old has gone, the new has come!” (2 Corinthians 5:17).

If you have never trusted in the Lord Jesus Christ as your Savior, will you consider the prompting of the Holy Spirit as He speaks to your heart? You need to be born again. Will you pray the prayer of repentance and become a new creation in Christ today? “Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God” (John 1:12-13).

If you want to accept Jesus Christ as your Savior and be born again, here is a sample prayer. Remember, saying this prayer or any other prayer will not save you. It is only trusting in Christ that can save you from sin. This prayer is simply a way to express to God your faith in Him and thank Him for providing for your salvation. “God, I know that I have sinned against you and am deserving of punishment. But Jesus Christ took the punishment that I deserve so that through faith in Him I could be forgiven. I place my trust in You for salvation. Thank You for Your wonderful grace and forgiveness—the gift of eternal life! Amen!”

Bengoshi,
It takes more than saying a simple prayer and trusting in God to be “born again”. You must literally change the way you think and act and follow Christ. You must align your will with his, forsaking sin and loving God and neighbor without expecting anything in return. You must grow in holiness and grace through reception of the life giving sacraments. You’ve read John 3 . Have you read John 6, where he says that if you don’t eat his body and drink his blood, you have no life within you? Have you read Matthew 19, where he tells the rich man that if you want eternal life you must follow the commandments and if you want to be perfect, you must sell all you have and follow him?

 

[shaky]

Please read the Chapter “Adam’s Fall and Mine” from the book CHOSEN BY GOD by R.C. Sproul at the-highway.com/fall_Sproul.html

Hi benegoshi

I was 33 years of Age when i came to the realisation i was a Sinner and needed Jesus Christ as my Saviour. Some of the Sins i was committing in the past i had no idea that they were Sins.
Naturally i Knew Murder was wrong. I knew Adultery was wrong. I knew stealing was wrong. I knew homosexuality is wrong. bestiality was wrong. telling Lies to harm peoples Lies was Wrong. So i did not do these wrongs

But i did not know Living for Self was wrong. I did not know having a sport ambition was wrong. Fornication was wrong. Lust was wrong. Getting drunk was Wrong. telling white lies was wrong. pleasure=pleasing myself in hobbies Fishing etc was wrong. Heresies being involved in wrong christian groups. When i was involved with each group i did not Know i was doing wrong at the time. what friendships i had in the world was wrong.
Fighting people who started a fight with me and getting angry was wrong.

OK i will concede we are at fault by the Fact. That i now have the Knowledge that i Know. I have been born into this world with a sinful nature.

But it still leaves the Question why Some Few people are Chosen by God. Forgiven and washed from there past Sins and also any Sins they happen to commit in the Future. Also Given the Grace=Power to Overcome Sins to become holy and Sanctified.

But to Many that have not been Chosen by God. Not Forgiven or washed from there sins Just Left in this Sinful nature not Given any Grace=power to overcome Sins.
Where is the Justification to Condemn these people.

Proverbs 16:14 The Lord has made all things for Himself: Yes, Even the wicked for the day of Evil.

If a person has been made wicked for the purpose of God and that person remains wicked
and was not given any Grace=power to become righteous. Surly if you was made wicked and left in this position.
would you feel it is Justified that you should be Condemned .

 

[Pitcharan]

…
But it still leaves the Question why Some Few people are Chosen by God. Forgiven and washed from there past Sins and also any Sins they happen to commit in the Future. Also Given the Grace=Power to Overcome Sins to become holy and Sanctified.

But to Many that have not been Chosen by God. Not Forgiven or washed from there sins Just Left in this Sinful nature not Given any Grace=power to overcome Sins.
Where is the Justification to Condemn these people.

Proverbs 16:14 The Lord has made all things for Himself: Yes, Even the wicked for the day of Evil.

If a person has been made wicked for the purpose of God and that person remains wicked
and was not given any Grace=power to become righteous. Surly if you was made wicked and left in this position.
would you feel it is Justified that you should be Condemned .

The answer my friend, is blowing in the wind; the answer is blowing in the wind…

Adam’s proud act is far greater than Eve’s; by beginning his response to God’s questioning with "The woman you put here with me

—", he literally blamed God. This is the height of pride.

The entire ordeal of the most blameless man on earth — Job, was meant to wipe out any remote latent potential for this very sin - viz., questioning / evaluating / scrutinising God’s actions and judgments.

Frequently we learn in the OT as well as NT that we are like the clay that has no right to question the potter. This is an effective Hebrew style teaching which tells us that God is not culpable and hence above human judgment. To dare question God’s judgments is the worst degree of pride. But by seeking truth with humility and simplicity of heart, many saints have received explanations from the Holy Spirit about incomprehensible judgments of God. (from the manuscript of an unpublished book)

 

[Bengoshi]

There is no reason to explain it away. you can’t work your way into heaven. There’s no debate about that. You need to cooperate with God’s grace and do the works he set out for you. Why did you stop at verse 9. read the whole sentence:
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and this is not from you; it is the gift of God;
9 it is not from works, so no one may boast.
10 For we are his handiwork, created in Christ Jesus for the good works that God has prepared in advance, that we should live in them.

Yes, I won’t argue with you on this one. God did indeed prepared good works for us to do. That’s also one of the reasons He saved us. He has a job for us. To honor Him and advance His kingdom.

Sure, he predestined some to heaven, there is no debate about that. But your argument isn’t that. Your argument is that he predestined some to hell. You have yet to prove that point.

I was responding to a post which touched on salvation, not on reprobation. Besides, a lot of us, including Pete Holter and Procorus, have already provided proof of reprobaion, even from Catholic sources and Scripture.

Sure, but where does it say anywhere that he denies effectual saving grace from anyone? And where does it say that we don’t have to cooperate with God’s grace to be saved? Does it not say in Romans 2 :

5 By your stubbornness and impenitent heart, you are storing up wrath for yourself for the day of wrath and revelation of the just judgment of God,
6 who will repay everyone according to his works:
7 eternal life to those who seek glory, honor, and immortality through perseverance in good works,
8 but wrath and fury to those who selfishly disobey the truth and obey wickedness.
9 Yes, affliction and distress will come upon every human being who does evil, Jew first and then Greek.
10 But there will be glory, honor, and peace for everyone who does good, Jew first and then Greek.

Yes, Christians need to do good works, but not to merit points to get to heaven but as proof of our salvation in Christ because it is “by their fruits you shall know them.” If we do not bear fruit, we will be thrown out. It means that our faith isn’t genuine, hence, not saved, not elect.

 

[Bengoshi]

Does irresistable grace in any way prove that God predestines one to hell? I can see where it would lead someone to heaven.

Of course it doesn’t. That is not the purpose of irresistable grace. Its purpose is for salvation, not reprobation. Those who were not given this grace are the reprobate.

 

[Bengoshi]

Bengoshi,
It takes more than saying a simple prayer and trusting in God to be “born again”. You must literally change the way you think and act and follow Christ. You must align your will with his, forsaking sin and loving God and neighbor without expecting anything in return. You must grow in holiness and grace through reception of the life giving sacraments. You’ve read John 3 . Have you read John 6, where he says that if you don’t eat his body and drink his blood, you have no life within you? Have you read Matthew 19, where he tells the rich man that if you want eternal life you must follow the commandments and if you want to be perfect, you must sell all you have and follow him?

Didn’t you read this caveat part?:

“Remember, saying this prayer or any other prayer will not save you. It is only trusting in Christ that can save you from sin. This prayer is simply a way to express to God your faith in Him and thank Him for providing for your salvation.”

 

[Bengoshi]

Hi benegoshi

I was 33 years of Age when i came to the realisation i was a Sinner and needed Jesus Christ as my Saviour. Some of the Sins i was committing in the past i had no idea that they were Sins.
Naturally i Knew Murder was wrong. I knew Adultery was wrong. I knew stealing was wrong. I knew homosexuality is wrong. bestiality was wrong. telling Lies to harm peoples Lies was Wrong. So i did not do these wrongs

But i did not know Living for Self was wrong. I did not know having a sport ambition was wrong. Fornication was wrong. Lust was wrong. Getting drunk was Wrong. telling white lies was wrong. pleasure=pleasing myself in hobbies Fishing etc was wrong. Heresies being involved in wrong christian groups. When i was involved with each group i did not Know i was doing wrong at the time. what friendships i had in the world was wrong.
Fighting people who started a fight with me and getting angry was wrong.

OK i will concede we are at fault by the Fact. That i now have the Knowledge that i Know. I have been born into this world with a sinful nature.

But it still leaves the Question why Some Few people are Chosen by God. Forgiven and washed from there past Sins and also any Sins they happen to commit in the Future. Also Given the Grace=Power to Overcome Sins to become holy and Sanctified.

But to Many that have not been Chosen by God. Not Forgiven or washed from there sins Just Left in this Sinful nature not Given any Grace=power to overcome Sins.
Where is the Justification to Condemn these people.

Proverbs 16:14 The Lord has made all things for Himself: Yes, Even the wicked for the day of Evil.

If a person has been made wicked for the purpose of God and that person remains wicked
and was not given any Grace=power to become righteous. Surly if you was made wicked and left in this position.
would you feel it is Justified that you should be Condemned .

Pitcharan’s answer to your question is correct. We have no right to judge whether God’s actions are just or not. His glory is paramount. We just have to trust that His purposes are good for He is the standard of truth.

You have to realize beforehand, that nobody deserves to be saved. So if ever God would choose to withhold that saving grace to some people, then they just receive justice. We all desreve to go to hell, but in love, God predestined some unto salvation before the creation of the world. The elect receive mercy while the reprobate receive justice.

 

[Pitcharan]

We have no right to judge whether God’s actions are just or not. His glory is paramount. We just have to trust that His purposes are good for …

Blessed are you Bengoshi, for these are truly inspired words and not mere bookish learning.

He is the standard of truth…

Anyone who has believed this has crossed over from death to life.

 

[Pitcharan]

Of course it doesn’t. That is not the purpose of irresistable grace. Its purpose is for salvation, not reprobation. Those who were not given this grace are the reprobate.

I would like add to this: Those who block this grace by being hell bent will join the reprobate.

 

[shaky]

Of course it doesn’t. That is not the purpose of irresistable grace. Its purpose is for salvation, not reprobation. Those who were not given this grace are the reprobate.

Hi Bengoshi

{2 peter 2:12} But these, Like unreasoning animal, BORN as creatures of Instinct to be captured and killed, reviling where they have know knowledge will in the destruction of
Those creatures also be destroyed.

This scripture seems to suggest people are born Reprobate:

These scriptures seem to suggest they remain this way:
{James 5:5} {1 Timothy 5:6} {Jude 1:10} {Philipians 3:19}

Do you think all are born Reptobate: But Some are chosen for salvation?

 

[shaky]

I would like add to this: Those who block this grace by being hell bent will join the reprobate.

Hi Pitcharan:

{1 peter 4:18} And, if the righteous scarcly be saved, where shall the ungodly and Sinner Appear.
This scripture seems to suggest even being a religious person and righteous, only a few of these persons will be saved.
These scriptures are saying you have to make sure of you salvation
{Philip 2:12} {2 peter 1:10} {heb 2:1}

I had a Jehovah witness telling me i was not Saved: because i would not believe what he was telling me: I told him I am makeing Sure by not being a heretic.

 

[shaky]

God needs to choose us and then we need to choose to cooperate…But Catholic theology is clear that God gives everyone the opportunity to be saved. Augustine is consistent with that view.

Hi paul

I understand catholic Theology teaches that God Gives everybody the opportunity to be Saved.
But i Thought this was new Church dogma

Can you Show me where Augustine is consistent with this View.

 

[shaky]

The article was quoted from GQ.

There seems to be a confusion about common grace. Common grace is not the Gospel. Common grace is God sustaining everything in spite of the evil of man.

The ones who respond in faith to the cults did not respond at all to God. They responded and accepted the lies of Satan just like Adam and Eve. Does that mean that Adam and Eve should not have been punished?

Hi bengoshi

Somebody new to the christian Faith: Who does not know about what the true doctrine is in the first place.
could they not still be responding to God in the First place?

Adam and Eve where punished while the Lived the rest of there lives.
Did they not Repent and where saved in the End?

 

[shaky]

Pitcharan’s answer to your question is correct. We have no right to judge whether God’s actions are just or not. His glory is paramount. We just have to trust that His purposes are good for He is the standard of truth.

You have to realize beforehand, that nobody deserves to be saved. So if ever God would choose to withhold that saving grace to some people, then they just receive justice. We all desreve to go to hell, but in love, God predestined some unto salvation before the creation of the world. The elect receive mercy while the reprobate receive justice.

Hi Benegoshi

I am not Questioning God. I am questioning people on this thread Just to see what there views are. I Know its a hard subject so i am Just looking at there different views.
Also i will question people on both sides of the debate. doubting is the prelude to truth
I do trust God that he has a perfectly Justified Reason for his purpose and Judgement.
I do believe God has pedestined some unto salvation before the creation of the World
There are plenty of scriptures to prove this.
What i was trying to understand. Are the rest who are Reprobate Pedestined before the Foundation of the world to damnation?
Because we have Got the ALL scriptures that Seem to Suggest. Every body while Alive
have a chance at Salvation.

 

[paul_c]

Hi paul

I understand catholic Theology teaches that God Gives everybody the opportunity to be Saved.
But i Thought this was new Church dogma

Can you Show me where Augustine is consistent with this View.

This seems like a good opportunity to explain how the Catholic church really works. The Church teaches the doctrines that were passed down from the Apostles, nothing more, nothing less. That is why the Pope is infallible in areas of faith and morals - he doesn’t create new doctrine. Now to be fair, he does need to apply existing doctrine to new situations. For instance, artificial birth control was not available during apostolic times. when Pope Paul VI pronounced against the use of artificial birth control, he did so after prolonged prayer and study by a large group of bishops and he published the reasons that the ruling was an extension of existing doctrine.

As for the specific doctrine that God gives everone the opportunity to be saved, that is scriptural. After all, Jesus calls all men to himself. And to describe this practically, every one has a conscience to warn against evil and drive them toward good. That is God calling to every man to come to him, is it not?

as for Augustine: here is the support from the Catholic encyclopedia article on the teaching of Augustine:
But this decree includes also the second element of the Catholic dogma: the very sincere will of God to give to all men the power of saving themselves and the power of damning themselves. According to Augustine, God, in his creative decree, has expressly excluded every order of things in which grace would deprive man of his liberty, every situation in which man would not have the power to resist sin, and thus Augustine brushes aside that predestinationism which has been attributed to him. Listen to him speaking to the Manichæans: “All can be saved if they wish”; and in his “Retractations” (I, x), far from correcting this assertion, he confirms it emphatically: “It is true, entirely true, that all men can, if they wish.” But he always goes back to the providential preparation. In his sermons he says to all: “It depends on you to be elect” (In Ps. cxx, n. 11, etc.); “Who are the elect? You, if you wish it” (In Ps. lxxiii, n. 5). But, you will say, according to Augustine, the lists of the elect and reprobate are closed. Now if the non-elect can gain heaven, if all the elect can be lost, why should not some pass from one list to the other? You forget the celebrated explanation of Augustine: When God made His plan, He knew infallibly, before His choice, what would be the response of the wills of men to His graces. If, then, the lists are definitive, if no one will pass from one series to the other, it is not because anyone cannot (on the contrary, all can), it is because God knew with infallible knowledge that no one would wish to. Thus I cannot effect that God should destine me to another series of graces than that which He has fixed, but, with this grace, if I do not save myself it will not be because I am not able, but because I do not wish to

 

[Bengoshi]

Hi Bengoshi

{2 peter 2:12} But these, Like unreasoning animal, BORN as creatures of Instinct to be captured and killed, reviling where they have know knowledge will in the destruction of
Those creatures also be destroyed.

This scripture seems to suggest people are born Reprobate:

These scriptures seem to suggest they remain this way:
{James 5:5} {1 Timothy 5:6} {Jude 1:10} {Philipians 3:19}

Do you think all are born Reptobate: But Some are chosen for salvation?

Not reprobate, but corrupt. We were born with a sinful nature. Election is done by God before the world was even created.

The 2 Peter 2 talks about falso prophets. You’re quoting the verse out of context. Please learn proper hermeneutics. Prooftexting by itself is not good if you fail totake into account the context a a certain passage.

 

[Bengoshi]

Hi bengoshi

Somebody new to the christian Faith: Who does not know about what the true doctrine is in the first place.
could they not still be responding to God in the First place?

Adam and Eve where punished while the Lived the rest of there lives.
Did they not Repent and where saved in the End?

Actually, we don’t know if Adam and Eve are saved or not. If they repented, then yes, they are saved, if not, then no. Same thing with those who get lured to the cults. If they die staying and believing in the teachings of those cults, then they die in their sins and thgerefore go to hell. The elect will get out of the cults they are in before they die and confess their faith to the true God and Savior, the real Jesus Christ.

 

[paul_c]

Not reprobate, but corrupt. We were born with a sinful nature. Election is done by God before the world was even created.

The 2 Peter 2 talks about falso prophets. You’re quoting the verse out of context. Please learn proper hermeneutics. Prooftexting by itself is not good if you fail totake into account the context a a certain passage.

Bengoshi, I must object. You claim that election is done by God before the world was even created. But you can’t support this. There is no scriptural support for the concept that some people have no chance to be saved. There is scriptural support that some are destined for heaven. But none that say some are predestined to hell, which is a heresy…