Tackling Predestination

[benedictus2]

Hi Benedictus.

I am sorry, but you seem to constantly misunderstand and misrepresent what I and others say. I am sorry that I do not have the time to interact with you more. I encourage you to read The Predestination of the Saints and The Gift of Perseverance.

With the love of Christ,
Pete

Pete, please do not think that I am being deliberately obtuse here.
If I have misunderstood and misrepresented anything, then please explain clearly how I have misrepresented it.

You say that and yet you have not explained exactly in what way I have misrepresented what Augustine has written.

If my analogies and explanations are incorrect then show where they are incorrect. Simply saying that I am misrepresenting something will not help the discussion because you have to provide proof that I have indeed misrepresented what you or St Augustine is saying.

St Augustine proposed this theory 1600 years ago and yet the Church has not made it dogma. The magisterium in all this time has baulked at this and at St Thomas’s explanation and yet she accepted Transubstantiation.

We follow the magisterium.

 

[benedictus2]

Hi Pete,

As I mentioned in my post 110, the issue with Predestination is how to explain the delicate balance between God’s Supreme Will and the workings of grace and Free will.

In the link I provided earlier, Kimel has this to say:

In his apostolic constitution Cum Occasione (1635), Pope Innocent X condemned the following Jansenist proposition: “It is Semi-Pelagian to say that Christ died or shed his blood for all human beings without exception.” The Second Vatican Council asserted: “The Word of God, through whom all things were made, was made flesh, so that as perfect man he could save all men and sum up all things in himself” (Gaudium et spes 45). The universal salvific will of the merciful God who has become incarnate in Jesus Christ underlies the documents of Vatican II, the encyclicals of John Paul II, and the Catechism of the Catholic Church.** It is true that some Catholic theologians, notably St Augustine**, have restricted God’s salvific will to the elect; but the Magisterium of the Catholic Church has achieved dogmatic clarity on this matter and has rejected this thesis.

In the words of the Catholic Catechism:
By giving up his own Son for our sins, God manifests that his plan for us is one of benevolent love, prior to any merit on our part: “In this is love, not that we loved God but that he loved us and sent his Son to be the expiation for our sins.” God “shows his love for us in that while we were yet sinners Christ died for us.”
Further:

"Joined to the assertion of God’s provision of sufficient grace to all is the rejection of the thesis of the Jansenists that all grace is necessarily efficacious. In 1713 Pope Clement XI condemned the proposition that “Grace is the working of the omnipotent hand of God which nothing can hinder or retard” (Unigenitus Dei Filius). There is an authentic grace that is truly sufficient for salvation, which provides to the sinner the Spirit-enabled freedom to turn to God but does not necessarily and irresistably realize its salvific end, a grace that man may mysteriously and inexplicably reject.

 

[MikeSar]

If Predestination were true, if the will and acts of people were pre-ordained from the beginning of time then, the life of Christ would be pointless.
Also, since love is the strongest driving force in life, it too, would be pointless, or frustrated.
Can we be sure the life of a dog is fully predestined?
How about the life of a volcano? Could an oil well cause an earthquake or an eruption?
The answer is yes. If even man can cause an earthquake, this was done accidentally but later on purpose to prove the cause-and-effect relationship.
Can we do good, or evil, if we chose? If not, what’s the point of Heaven, or hell?
If predestination is true, Christ died for nothing.
Have a Nice Day, if you so chose.

 

[Bengoshi]

If Predestination were true, if the will and acts of people were pre-ordained from the beginning of time then, the life of Christ would be pointless.
Also, since love is the strongest driving force in life, it too, would be pointless, or frustrated.
Can we be sure the life of a dog is fully predestined?
How about the life of a volcano? Could an oil well cause an earthquake or an eruption?
The answer is yes. If even man can cause an earthquake, this was done accidentally but later on purpose to prove the cause-and-effect relationship.
Can we do good, or evil, if we chose? If not, what’s the point of Heaven, or hell?
If predestination is true, Christ died for nothing.
Have a Nice Day, if you so chose.

I think you might be confusing Predestination and Providence here. Predestination only pertains to salvation while it is Providence which pertains to God’s control of the universe.

 

[dcastlen50]

if you so chose.

 

[benedictus2]

I think you might be confusing Predestination and Providence here. Predestination only pertains to salvation while it is Providence which pertains to God’s control of the universe.

In some parts perhaps Mike was but not entirely.

The first 2 lines
*
“If Predestination were true, if the will and acts of people were pre-ordained from the beginning of time then, the life of Christ would be pointless.
Also, since love is the strongest driving force in life, it too, would be pointless, or frustrated.”*

and the last 3 “Can we do good, or evil, if we chose? If not, what’s the point of Heaven, or hell?
If predestination is true, Christ died for nothing.
Have a Nice Day, if you so chose.”

 

[diggerdomer]

continued from above…

As a Calvinist though, my favorite was Romans 9…
Romans 9:11-13, “11Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad—in order that God’s purpose in election might stand: 12not by works but by him who calls—she was told, “The older will serve the younger.”[d] 13Just as it is written: “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”[e]” Hmmmm, God “hated” Esau before he was born and did anything good or bad, in order that his purpose in election might stand?

14-15, " 14What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! 15For he says to Moses,
“I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,
and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”
Calvinist stick to this, to say that he is choosy with his mercy and compassion, ie limited atonement…

16-18, "16It does not, therefore, depend on man’s desire or effort, but on God’s mercy. 17For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: “I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” 18Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden. "
Calvinist - Unconditional Election

19, "19One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?” "
Ahhh, here we go with Irresistable Grace

20-21, "20But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, ‘Why did you make me like this?’ “[h] 21Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use?”
and here we have support for the entire TULIP thing, with a grand finale of Romans 9:21-23 which I quoted above.

Here’s the problem with it all, firstly I do believe Paul is making a point about God’s sovereignty, but not so much in choosing between individual people but rather about Paul’s people, the Jews, the hardships they had to come, and their denial of their messiah, as all this had been prophesied. As Paul continues to point out in verses 25-29, "25As he says in Hosea:
“I will call them ‘my people’ who are not my people;
and I will call her ‘my loved one’ who is not my loved one,”* 26and,
"It will happen that in the very place where it was said to them,
‘You are not my people,’
they will be called ‘sons of the living God.’ "[j]

27Isaiah cries out concerning Israel:
“Though the number of the Israelites be like the sand by the sea,
only the remnant will be saved.
28For the Lord will carry out
his sentence on earth with speed and finality.”[k]

29It is just as Isaiah said previously:
“Unless the Lord Almighty
had left us descendants,
we would have become like Sodom,
we would have been like Gomorrah.”[l]"

The context of the end of Romans 8 where Paul is explaining the joyous and loving position Christ has provided for us, and to contrast in Romans 9:2-3, “2I have great sorrow and unceasing anguish in my heart. 3For I could wish that I myself were cursed and cut off from Christ for the sake of my brothers, those of my own race”, Paul is lamenting about his people the Jews and their rejection of Christ.

Sorry for such a long post and I apologize ahead of time for any errors I may have made. I was rather in a hurry here at work…
Peace*

So you agree, God wills all to be saved?

 

[Bengoshi]

So you agree, God wills all to be saved?

This is good, and it is pleasing in the sight of God our Savior, 4who desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. (1 Tim. 2:4)

The key word here is “desires” (ESV) or “wants” (NIV). God desires all people to be saved but it doesn’t necessarily mean that He wills it in the same way that we can want something but will otherwise.

 

[benedictus2]

This is good, and it is pleasing in the sight of God our Savior, 4who desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. (1 Tim. 2:4)

The key word here is “desires” (ESV) or “wants” (NIV). God desires all people to be saved but it doesn’t necessarily mean that He wills it in the same way that we can want something but will otherwise.

So you are saying that God is at war within Himself? That there is division within God Himself?

He desires something but He does not will it?

Do you know that divisions are caused by the devil, that is why within man there is, according to St Paul, this battle where he does not do the good that he wants to do but he ends up doing the evil that he does not want to do?

What was the point of Jesus’s command to the Apostles to make disciples of ALL NATIONS and baptizing them in the Name of the Trinity if He does not want some to be saved at all?

We fallen creatures, want something and will otherwise but our wanting and willing are different to that of God’s because we are creatures and fallen creatures at that. God is God - pure Omnipotence and pure Benevolence.

 

[Philthy]

This is good, and it is pleasing in the sight of God our Savior, 4who desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. (1 Tim. 2:4)

The key word here is “desires” (ESV) or “wants” (NIV). God desires all people to be saved but it doesn’t necessarily mean that He wills it in the same way that we can want something but will otherwise.

Sorry but this makes no sense. Why would an omniscient God “desire” something different than what he “wills”. Is there something wrong with it? If there is, why would he “desire” it? Is there nothing wrong with it? Then why would he not “will” it?

Predestination is basically a useless doctrine for in the end no one knows if they are among the predestined and without that knowledge it is meaningless (at best) if it is true, and down right dangerous if it is not true.

Blessings!

 

[shaky]

Sorry but this makes no sense. Why would an omniscient God “desire” something different than what he “wills”. Is there something wrong with it? If there is, why would he “desire” it? Is there nothing wrong with it? Then why would he not “will” it?

Predestination is basically a useless doctrine for in the end no one knows if they are among the predestined and without that knowledge it is meaningless (at best) if it is true, and down right dangerous if it is not true.

Blessings!

Hi Philthy:

In the KJV version it says: Who ‘‘will’’ have all men to be saved. In the Greek it says Will
of wish all men to be saved.
I have been reading the bible 19 years on and off and i never heard or thought about predestination: One day on the web and was on google videos. I read the title of this one video. Predestination: Its the only way to heaven. I thought what is this all about. After i had seen the video. I thought i read the bible and sometimes i read words that i don’t understand the meaning of that word.
I looked up the word predestination in a dictionary and understood the word. Since studying the doctrine of predestination over the Last 3 months, at times i have been feeling a bit disturbed by it. Some things i can get my head round it quickly and understand. But i must admit this is a proper head banger.

 

[Philthy]

Hi Philthy:
In the KJV version it says: Who ‘‘will’’ have all men to be saved. In the Greek it says Will
of wish all men to be saved.
I have been reading the bible 19 years on and off and i never heard or thought about predestination: One day on the web and was on google videos. I read the title of this one video. Predestination: Its the only way to heaven.

If Predestination is the only way to Heaven, what’s the point of discussing it!

But i must admit this is a proper head banger.

You got that right!

 

[Pitcharan]

Hi Philthy:

In the KJV version it says: Who ‘‘will’’ have all men to be saved. In the Greek it says Will
of wish all men to be saved.
I have been reading the bible 19 years on and off and i never heard or thought about predestination: One day on the web and was on google videos. I read the title of this one video. Predestination: Its the only way to heaven. I thought what is this all about. After i had seen the video. I thought i read the bible and sometimes i read words that i don’t understand the meaning of that word.
I looked up the word predestination in a dictionary and understood the word. Since studying the doctrine of predestination over the Last 3 months, at times i have been feeling a bit disturbed by it. Some things i can get my head round it quickly and understand. But i must admit this is a proper head banger.

Hi Shaky,
I am back at CAF after a brief rest to recover from a divine blow that brought me to my senses. I have testified in the book sent to you, all about my conversion history. In it you can read that “predestination” is specifically and emphatically denied. Now, 7 years later I was decieved to see non-existent truth in “pre-destination” and was brought to my senses by divine intervention. Benedictus was the main instrument of God. The fall however has only made me stronger and humbler and has been a great blessing as the heavy load of pride fell too. Now I am busy getting rid of the left over roots of the chopped down cedar of Lebanon. Interestingly, you can also find in my book that God had warned me of hidden pride and to guard from being blotted out from the book of life. Which clearly suggests that one’s name can enter the book of life and later be deleted because of sin. Therefore the destructive false teaching called “predestination” stands demolished.

This is my true testimony.
Pitcharan

 

[diggerdomer]

This is good, and it is pleasing in the sight of God our Savior, 4who desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. (1 Tim. 2:4)

The key word here is “desires” (ESV) or “wants” (NIV). God desires all people to be saved but it doesn’t necessarily mean that He wills it in the same way that we can want something but will otherwise.

How do you distinguish between God’s desire and God’s will? The two can conflict?

 

[shaky]

If Predestination is the only way to Heaven, what’s the point of discussing it!
You got that right!

Hi Philthy

The way Jim brown was explaining things was: He was reading this testimony about a sexual predator and serial killer who killed 8 young women. while this person was in Prison. He found Jesus Christ and was now saved.
They way Jim analysed it was: It was The purpose of God to allow all these young women
To be torchered raped and murdered because they were vessels of wrath fitted for destruction and hell.
At the same time the vessel of mercy ends up in prison realises how evil he was and for somebody to show him Jesus Christ and Gods plan for his Salvation.

This is a example how God predestines people.

 

[Philthy]

Hi Philthy

The way Jim brown was explaining things was: He was reading this testimony about a sexual predator and serial killer who killed 8 young women. while this person was in Prison. He found Jesus Christ and was now saved.
They way Jim analysed it was: It was The purpose of God to allow all these young women
To be torchered raped and murdered because they were vessels of wrath fitted for destruction and hell.
At the same time the vessel of mercy ends up in prison realises how evil he was and for somebody to show him Jesus Christ and Gods plan for his Salvation.

This is a example how God predestines people.

It is complete nonsense. He offers one explanation, which is entirely speculative and, ultimately useless. The problem with his explanation is that we have plenty of stories where the “predestined” individual ends up repudiating Christianity, returning to a life of sin and dies in that state. Are we to believe that they were truly among the “elect”? I dont - its a useless, unsupportable, potentially dangerous doctrine.

 

[shaky]

It is complete nonsense. He offers one explanation, which is entirely speculative and, ultimately useless. The problem with his explanation is that we have plenty of stories where the “predestined” individual ends up repudiating Christianity, returning to a life of sin and dies in that state. Are we to believe that they were truly among the “elect”? I dont - its a useless, unsupportable, potentially dangerous doctrine.

Hi Philthy i agree with you. when i heard what he said. I did not like it one bit. I cant explain why. but inwardly It Just did not seem right to me. I thought this can’t be what christianity is all about.
Jim brown believes he is truly among the ‘‘elect’’. He believes he is teaching truth. Anybody that disagrees with him he says they are a reprobate.
He does come Across very Arrogant and seems Convinced in what he is preaching.
His own father was a christian who is dead now disagreed with him.
Jim brown has been studying and preaching the Subject for Just over 53 years.
I am not at all experienced in handling this sort of preaching that i have been up against
I hope in time God will show clearly what it is all about.
I would love to see a debate with him and a catholic bishop both useing scripture

 

[shaky]

Hi Shaky,
I am back at CAF after a brief rest to recover from a divine blow that brought me to my senses. I have testified in the book sent to you, all about my conversion history. In it you can read that “predestination” is specifically and emphatically denied. Now, 7 years later I was decieved to see non-existent truth in “pre-destination” and was brought to my senses by divine intervention. Benedictus was the main instrument of God. The fall however has only made me stronger and humbler and has been a great blessing as the heavy load of pride fell too. Now I am busy getting rid of the left over roots of the chopped down cedar of Lebanon. Interestingly, you can also find in my book that God had warned me of hidden pride and to guard from being blotted out from the book of life. Which clearly suggests that one’s name can enter the book of life and later be deleted because of sin. Therefore the destructive false teaching called “predestination” stands demolished.

This is my true testimony.
Pitcharan

Hi pitcharan

What i tend to find what happens to me: When i start thinking I Know everything about something: I usually end up knowing nothing.Sometimes It can be very hard to understand the truth about somethings.

 

[Pete_Holter]

Hi Philthy i agree with you. when i heard what he said. I did not like it one bit. I cant explain why. but inwardly It Just did not seem right to me. I thought this can’t be what christianity is all about.
Jim brown believes he is truly among the ‘‘elect’’. He believes he is teaching truth. Anybody that disagrees with him he says they are a reprobate.
He does come Across very Arrogant and seems Convinced in what he is preaching.
His own father was a christian who is dead now disagreed with him.
Jim brown has been studying and preaching the Subject for Just over 53 years.
I am not at all experienced in handling this sort of preaching that i have been up against
I hope in time God will show clearly what it is all about.
I would love to see a debate with him and a catholic bishop both useing scripture

Thanks for pointing this guy out to us. I had the time to listen to the video you mentioned: Predestination: It’s the Only Way to Heaven.

If I had the opportunity, I would ask Jim Brown to examine himself carefully for that “root of bitterness” that seems to be defiling him (cf. Heb 12:15), and to see whether he is not sinning in failing to honor his father and hold him in his love. I would leave him with this verse as the Spirit brought it to my attention at several points throughout his video: “Knowledge puffs up, but love builds up” (1 Corinthians 8:1). In short, he seems to have a fundamental moral failure affecting him, one that makes him unfit to preach on this doctrine. May God have mercy on him!

I’ve not heard of him before… other errors aside, there was one fundamental error in something he said:

And why did He make Satan with a glitch… huh? where he would sin? (31:35 – 31:44)

Of course we totally reject the idea that God made anything with a “glitch” in it. We believe that all that God made, He made perfect. And that all the evil in the world has its root in the bad choice of the good free will of the creature. For a full defense of this doctrine, you can consult Augustine’s writings against the Manichaeans.

If you’d like to hear a more wholesome presentation of predestination from a Protestant source, here is a sermon from C.J. Mahaney called Sovereign Grace. He is a Calvinist, friends with Al Mohler, R.C. Sproul, John Piper, Wayne Grudem, etc. Here is how he introduces himself in this sermon:

Now, here’s what I want you to be very aware of. The smartest guys in all of Church history haven’t been able to answer these questions. The best minds in all of Church history haven’t been able to answer these questions or resolve this apparent conflict or contradiction between diving sovereignty and human responsibility. So, the smartest guys and the best minds in Church history have been unable to address these questions and resolve these questions and before you this morning staaaands… a high school graduate. Alright? A high school graduate. A high school graduate who didn’t even score high enough on his SAT in order to get into the University of Maryland, the state where he had lived all of his life previously. And don’t you get 400 for just signin and showin up? That’s my understanding. Well I came in somewhere just over 700. So I want you to adjust your expectations accordingly. (12:18 – 13:38)

Ha ha ha!

Have a blessed day, Shaky!

Your brother in Christ,
Pete

 

[Marc_Anthony]

Hold on a second-if Catholics believe in single predestination, that is, people are predestined to Heaven, but NOT that people are predestined to Hell, then what’s the difference?

If you’re not predestined to Heaven, you might as well be predestined to Hell, whether you say it or not, true?

I don’t get it.