Tackling Predestination

[benedictus2]

If God is not sovereign, then our prayers are for nought because we cannot be sure if God can really fulfil His will due to man’s disobedience.

And this is what prayer is like when you factor in predestination

***From the Rubaiyat of Omar Khayam (as translated by Edward Fitzgerald)

But helpless pieces in the game He plays
Upon this chequer-board of Nights and Days
He hither and thither moves, and checks … and slays
Then one by one, back in the Closet lays

“The Moving Finger writes: and, having writ,
Moves on: nor all thy Piety nor Wit
Shall lure it back to cancel half a Line,
Nor all thy Tears wash out a Word of it.”***

 

[Pitcharan]

It is very much possible. God loves His creation so He desires/wants/wishes all to be saved. However, His justice and glory is still paramount because there is no higher good that God. His decision to pass over some should always be seen for the glory of God for His ways are higher than our ways and His thoughts are higher than our thoughts.

Imagine this:

(GOD) “I want to save everyone because I love them, but because I have a higher purpose to serve, which is my justice and glory, then I will pass over them and leave them to their own evil ways.”

My dear Bengoshi,
you have got it wrong. I am even able to see the source (cause) of this confusion. It is because you treat every single letter in the Bible as if exactly revealed by God. NO. The Bible does contain God’s Word which has to be mined out with the help of the HS. It is similar to mining and extracting Diamond, Gold or Silver; precious things are invariably mixed and never to be found in free and pure form. God’s Word is the most precious of all. The Bible includes many purely humanistic expressions of those who recorded their thoughts and inspirations. Take for example these verses: The LORD saw how great man’s wickedness on the earth had become, and that every inclination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil all the time. The LORD was grieved that he had made man on the earth, and his heart was filled with pain. So the LORD said, “I will wipe mankind, whom I have created, from the face of the earth—men and animals, and creatures that move along the ground, and birds of the air—for I am grieved that I have made them.” (Gen 6:5-7). Can we interpret these verses and say that God felt that He had made a mistake in creating humans? NO, certainly not. These were the words that came to mind for the inspired human who was able to guage God’s pain at mankind’s fall. They were humanistic expressions used to describe a divine understanding.

 

[diggerdomer]

Imagine this:

(GOD) “I want to save everyone because I love them, but because I have a higher purpose to serve, which is my justice and glory, then I will pass over them and leave them to their own evil ways.”

Good point.

So…if we follow this thought…God as “just” and/or “glorious” is more essential or fundamental than God as “love”?

 

[shaky]

I think this whole problem of predestination started because some men took bits and pieces of scriptures and came up with conclusions that do not necessarily jive with the rest of scripture.

It is important that when we come up with explanations about scriptural passages that it makes sense of the whole of scripture.

I would say that the one doctrine that did the most damage is Sola Fide for it fits perfectly well with predestination.

If we are saved by faith and faith can only come from God then it stands to reason that since He allowed only some to have faith, that God has rejected the rest of humanity. Couple that with the doctrine that all grace is efficacious and the last nail is hammered on the coffin of common sense.

Once we put on reformed glasses then predestination makes sense.

But as we have shown, reformed theology is in dire need of reformation.

Hi Benedictus

I agree with you. Once you start focusing only on certain scriptures and then start hoping
around the bible. you can make the bible say anything you Like.
Also misinterpreting scripture mixed in on top of that.
What you need is the correct understanding of Scripture and the take all Scriptures as a whole in the bible to Get a true understanding.

In the past i have been drawn into all sorts of christian Groups with there certain doctrine
As soon as i start finding scriptures to demolish a certain doctrine in a certain church.
They start shunning me and I lose confidence in that Croup. I was threatend with Excommunication in one church. All i want to do is understand the Truth about all things.

Reformed theology is a bit of a nightmare. There is one group called the {church of God}.
Then you have got the {Reformed Church of God} who think they have Got the Only Truth.
There all always trying to reform each other with a new doctrine.

 

[Pitcharan]

Hi Benedictus

I agree with you. Once you start focusing only on certain scriptures and then start hoping
around the bible. you can make the bible say anything you Like.
Also misinterpreting scripture mixed in on top of that.
What you need is the correct understanding of Scripture and the take all Scriptures as a whole in the bible to Get a true understanding.

In the past i have been drawn into all sorts of christian Groups with there certain doctrine
As soon as i start finding scriptures to demolish a certain doctrine in a certain church.
They start shunning me and I lose confidence in that Croup. I was threatend with Excommunication in one church. All i want to do is understand the Truth about all things.

Reformed theology is a bit of a nightmare. There is one group called the {church of God}.
Then you have got the {Reformed Church of God} who think they have Got the Only Truth.
There all always trying to reform each other with a new doctrine.

And now, don’t you think the time is just ripe for you to joyfully come into the Catholic Church for good?

 

[shaky]

Imagine this:

(GOD) “I want to save everyone because I love them, but because I have a higher purpose to serve, which is my justice and glory, then I will pass over them and leave them to their own evil ways.”

Hi bengoshi

At the moment there is 6 billion people on the planet. God chooses out of these to be his children. It would be unjust Just to randomly Pick individuals for no reason at all.
There has to be a Reason why some Individuals are Chosen. And the rest to be left to there evil ways.

 

[benedictus2]

Hi bengoshi

At the moment there is 6 billion people on the planet. God chooses out of these to be his children. It would be unjust Just to randomly Pick individuals for no reason at all.
There has to be a Reason why some Individuals are Chosen. And the rest to be left to there evil ways.

And therein lie the idiocy of the theology being proposed, that somehow the God who is Good delights in the evil of human creatures for it is within the power of this same God to change their evil ways and yet he chooses not do so all on the pretext of “justice and glory”

What other conclusion can one derive from that but that he somehow is pleased in seeing man do evil things.

So now we have been able to reduce this proposition to its absurdity - we now have a god who is supposed to love goodness delighting in the evil that men do.

 

[Bengoshi]

Hi bengoshi

At the moment there is 6 billion people on the planet. God chooses out of these to be his children. It would be unjust Just to randomly Pick individuals for no reason at all.
There has to be a Reason why some Individuals are Chosen. And the rest to be left to there evil ways.

Of course, there is a reason for God’s choices, however, only God knows what they are. We just have to trust that His reasons are good and just.

 

[benedictus2]

Of course, there is a reason for God’s choices, however, only God knows what they are. We just have to trust that His reasons are good and just.

There is absolutely no doubting that God’s choices are all good.

**What is being rightly questioned is your theory **that god chooses to pass over some to confirm them in their sin, for that that theory says that god is unjust and very far from being good so therefore this god’s choice is anything but good.

 

[Pitcharan]

And therein lie the idiocy of the theology being proposed, that somehow the God who is Good delights in the evil of human creatures for it is within the power of this same God to change their evil ways and yet he chooses not do so all on the pretext of “justice and glory”

What other conclusion can one derive from that but that he somehow is pleased in seeing man do evil things.

So now we have been able to reduce this proposition to its absurdity - we now have a god who is supposed to love goodness delighting in the evil that men do.

A conducted tour thro salvation history is required to chart the understanding of humans and God’s plan. In the beginning our understanding was limited to “Fear God and shun evil”. Later the Law was revealed thro Moses and the emphasis was love for God and neighbour. Few people understood this while most tried to feelinglessly make-believe that they were observing the Law and imagining that they were saved while all fellow humans outside the Law (gentiles) were damned. The wisdom period saw people after God’s own heart and then came the prophets who became martyrs trying to teach people love and social justice. Then God sent His own Son as a human incarnation who was the fullness of grace who established the righteous requirements of the law and opened the doors of His kingdom for all mankind. All this at the heaviest price of brutal torture, worst humiliation and a criminal’s death on the cross. Doesn’t salvation history then teach all of us that God’s justice and glory is all founded on LOVE that is excellently demonstrated by our Lord in His birth in a manger, life and death. This is the same LOVE so beautifully decribed by St. Paul (1Cor 13). What then is God’s paramount consideration for saving humans? Is it “LOVE” or “justice and glory”?.

 

[shaky]

And now, don’t you think the time is just ripe for you to joyfully come into the Catholic Church for good?

Hi Pitcharan;

That is Just what i have been Thinking Lately: The holy spirit is prompting me to start Going to Church. I cant exactly Ignore him. I have to Go to check things out. I will be Going this week.

 

[Pitcharan]

Hi Pitcharan;

That is Just what i have been Thinking Lately: The holy spirit is prompting me to start Going to Church. I cant exactly Ignore him. I have to Go to check things out. I will be Going this week.

God is never in a hurry but always on time. The zeal of the Lord will accomplish it!

 

[benedictus2]

Hi Benedictus

I agree with you. Once you start focusing only on certain scriptures and then start hoping
around the bible. you can make the bible say anything you Like.
Also misinterpreting scripture mixed in on top of that.
What you need is the correct understanding of Scripture and the take all Scriptures as a whole in the bible to Get a true understanding.

In the past i have been drawn into all sorts of christian Groups with there certain doctrine
As soon as i start finding scriptures to demolish a certain doctrine in a certain church.
They start shunning me and I lose confidence in that Croup. I was threatend with Excommunication in one church.

It is sad that one must ignore other parts of the Bible just so one can hold on to one’s belief. The kind of attitude that you mentioned makes the protestant opposition to the magisterium rather hypocritical. That they threatened you with excommunication proves that they consider themselves the magisterium.

I can’t remember which convert it is who said that becoming Catholic was very freeing for him because there are no Bible passages to be ignored and be afraid of anymore.

All i want to do is understand the Truth about all things.

And you will not be frustrated. The desire for Truth is something that God has put in your heart. It is good that you are not running away from it. It helps that you are honest to yourself and that you have a clarity of mind to see through erroneous propositions. I suppose you have that common sense that is seemingly not so common.

For sure God is the one who planted this desire for truth in your heart. And He does not plant desires which He has no intention of fulfilling.:heaven:

Reformed theology is a bit of a nightmare. There is one group called the {church of God}.
Then you have got the {Reformed Church of God} who think they have Got the Only Truth.
There all always trying to reform each other with a new doctrine.

This is what happens when every single person becomes their own Pope. Real wisdom comes when we learn to dethrone the I/Me/Myself-Pope but this requires a tremendous amount of humility and courage. Yes, courage. For a change of direction in thinking is truly a brave act.

 

[benedictus2]

Hi Pitcharan;

That is Just what i have been Thinking Lately: The holy spirit is prompting me to start Going to Church. I cant exactly Ignore him. I have to Go to check things out. I will be Going this week.

At this point I would like to tell a story I heard last week from the priest who conducted our retreat.

A man who used to sit outside the church I go to told him his life story.

This man was baptized Catholic as a child but that was it. No church, nothing else after that. He had never set foot on a church and though he had been sitting on the fence of this church for sometime he had never ventured in.

He ended up whiling all of his time away by this church’s fence when his wife left him (taking with her their children) because of his drug addition, alcoholism and gambling. From then on his life went even more downhill and rapidly. He hated his wife and felt great bitterness towards her.

This was his emotional state when one day, as he sat again by the fence,
he heard a voice say to him “Why don’t you come in?”.

He turned around but there was nobody there. He then thought why not, maybe he should check this place out considering he had been sitting outside it for some months.

He entered the church and went to the chapel of Our Lady. There he completely broke down and he cried like he had never cried before. When his sobbing was over he again heard a voice and this time it sad :“Why don’t you forgive yourself?”. After hearing that a sense of peace and easing of tension came over him and from that moment on he never again did drugs, alcohol or gamble. His wife had already remarried but he become reconciled to her and he was once again a father to his children. He starting practicing the faith he was baptized in.

Sometimes, people think, it is just a building but it isn’t. Because Christ is there in the Blessed Sacrament, the building remains a church because the Head of the Church is there even if there is no one else around.

Of course it is much better when we go there for Mass for then we participate in the sacred banquet of the Lord. There we are nourished both by the Word of God and by the Body of Blood of Our Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[Pitcharan]

Imagine this:

(GOD) “I want to save everyone because I love them, but because I have a higher purpose to serve, which is my justice and glory, then I will pass over them and leave them to their own evil ways.”

A conducted tour thro salvation history is required to chart the understanding of God’s plan by humans. In the beginning our understanding was limited to “Fear God and shun evil”. Later the Law was revealed thro Moses and the emphasis was “Love for God and neighbour”. A few understood this while most tried to feelinglessly make-believe that they were observing the Law. The wisdom period saw the likes of David, a man after God’s own heart and then came the prophets who became martyrs trying to teach people love and social justice. The stiff necked people who killed prophets, repeatedly drove the land into exile by their sinfulness. After the return from Babylonian exile, Ezra’s law book was expected to reform the people. However, they only subverted truth in the name of God’s Law after conveniently perverting it to suit their own whims. The law became an unbearable scourge on the people while the hypocratic teachers of law imagined that they were saved while all fellow humans outside the Law (gentiles) were damned. Then God sent His own Son as a human incarnation who was the fullness of grace who established the righteous requirements of the law and opened the doors of His kingdom for all mankind. All this at the heaviest price of brutal torture, worst humiliation and a criminal’s death on the cross. Doesn’t salvation history then teach all of us that God’s justice and glory is all founded on LOVE that is excellently demonstrated by our Lord in His birth in a manger, life and death. This is the same LOVE so beautifully decribed by St. Paul (1Cor 13). What then is God’s paramount consideration for saving humans? Is it “LOVE” or “justice and glory”?.

 

[benedictus2]

Then God sent His own Son as a human incarnation who was the fullness of grace who established the righteous requirements of the law and opened the doors of His kingdom for all mankind. All this at the heaviest price of brutal torture, worst humiliation and a criminal’s death on the cross. Doesn’t salvation history then teach all of us that God’s justice and glory is all founded on LOVE that is excellently demonstrated by our Lord in His birth in a manger, life and death. This is the same LOVE so beautifully decribed by St. Paul (1Cor 13). What then is God’s paramount consideration for saving humans? Is it “LOVE” or “justice and glory”?.

Amen!!!

If God is love and so creates out of Love, then the salvation of all He created could only be because of Love.

 

[Pitcharan]

At this point I would like to tell a story I heard last week from the priest who conducted our retreat. …

Of course it is much better when we go there for Mass for then we participate in the sacred banquet of the Lord. There we are nourished both by the Word of God and by the Body of Blood of Our Lord Jesus Christ.

Now hear another story from the horse’s mouth. After flirting with atheism and sin from 1973 to 1984, I started limping to believing between 1985 and 1996 while still neck deep in sin. And then one day (in Aug 1996) I was struck down just like Saul (St. Paul) and thereafter I’ve been steadily progressing. Lead kindly light!

 

[benedictus2]

Now hear another story from the horse’s mouth. After flirting with atheism and sin from 1973 to 1984, I started limping to believing between 1985 and 1996 while still neck deep in sin. And then one day (in Aug 1996) I was struck down just like Saul (St. Paul) and thereafter I’ve been steadily progressing. Lead kindly light!

Praise and Thanks to our most Loving and Merciful God!

I loooove conversion stories. There is nothing more beautiful to read than the story of a soul who has found its way back to its Creator.

Aaah, the tenderness and passion with which He searches out the lost.

 

[Marc_Anthony]

Second reply.

The way that I would apply this to secular life would be to liken it to instances when there is a certain massive outbreak of an extremely virulent flu (like bird or swine flu).

The first thing the government does is to make sure that health care providers (doctors, nurses, chemists) and others who are involved in the running of a community (peace-keeping officers, etc) are the ones who get the first batches of any medicine or anti-viral injections. You could probably call them “the elect” because even before the outbreak, this is already part of the plan.

But it does not mean that the rest of the population are going to be denied care. It is precisely because these people (“the elect”) are vital to the “salvation” of the population because they will be at the forefront in the battle against the flu that they are “elected”. They are elected not for themselves but for the whole plan of salvation.

As I said before, “predestination” of the elect only makes sense if we posit that those who we say have been “predestined” to salvation are not necessarily the only ones who will be saved.

Thank you, that clears it up very well.

 

[Pitcharan]

Praise and Thanks to our most Loving and Merciful God!

I loooove conversion stories. There is nothing more beautiful to read than the story of a soul who has found its way back to its Creator.

Aaah, the tenderness and passion with which He searches out the lost.

Then read my complete story that was posted earlier on a another thread: forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=6839524#poststop