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diggerdomer
Guest
And loving?
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Bengoshi
Guest
Yes, and loving.
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Philthy
Guest
We shall see! One thing we know for sure - if it is not possible, then entire foundation of your position is revealed to be sand.
Agreed
Sorry, but this doesnt make sense. If his justice and glory are always paramount then He would not wish for all to be saved because that would be contrary to His justice and glory, which always takes precedence (ie is paramount). You are attributing human, temporal, imperfect, emotional dichotomy to God who has perfect, timeless, knowledge. You attempt to claim he both wants something and doesnt want it and then rationalize this clear impossibility by calling one his “wants/desires/wishes” and the other his “will”. It doesnt fly… honest.
This is a classic candy coating of your inability to truly explain and justify your position: we will take our error and make it look good by claiming its for God’s glory and then seal the deal with a Scripture verse that could be used to explain any wild thought that is otherwise unjustifiable.
Blessings!
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Pitcharan
Guest
Bengoshi got it wrong because of treating every single word in the Bible as if exactly revealed by God. NO. The Bible does contain God’s Word which has to be mined out with the help of the HS. It is similar to mining and extracting Diamond, Gold or Silver. Precious things are invariably mixed and never to be found in free and pure form and God’s Word is the most precious of all. The Bible includes many purely humanistic expressions of those who recorded their thoughts and inspirations. Take for example these verses: The LORD saw how great man’s wickedness on the earth had become, and that every inclination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil all the time. The LORD was grieved that he had made man on the earth, and his heart was filled with pain. So the LORD said, "I will wipe mankind, whom I have created, from the face of the earth—men and animals, and creatures that move along the ground, and birds of the air—for I am grieved that I have made them." (Gen 6:5-7). Can we interpret these verses and say that God felt that He had made a mistake in creating humans? NO, certainly not. These were the words that came to mind for the inspired human who was able to guage God’s pain at mankind’s fall. They were humanistic expressions used to describe a divine understanding.
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benedictus2
Guest
That is beautiful!
The loving mercy of the heart of our God
Who visits us like the dawn from on high
He will give light to those in darkness
Those who dwell in the shadow of death
and guide our feet on the way of peace
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benedictus2
Guest
Really? You had a major issue with my post when I insisted that God IS loveYes, and loving.
I have just recently watched the Boy in Striped Pajamas.
This german boy’s Nazi General father is very loving towards him. Yet at the same time he has no problem gassing Jews to death.
I wonder, would you feel comfortable with a father like that who obviously loves you very much but tortures and kills even your best friend.
That is the god you have been painting all this time.
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Philthy
Guest
When the going gets tough, the tough get going… and the rest? Well they simply disppear - maybe its their “destiny”.
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Pete_Holter
Guest
I’m glad I took the time to read your story, Pitcharan. That was great. Praise Jesus!
Thank you for your patience towards me Paul and Benedictus. I should be able to respond to your latest questions within the next… couple of months.
We’re putting our house on the market this week, starting homeschooling for the first time in a few weeks, and my wife is pregnant with our fourth heavenly blessing!!!
With love in Christ,
Pete
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benedictus2
Guest
Take your time (I prefer you doI’m glad I took the time to read your story, Pitcharan. That was great. Praise Jesus!
Thank you for your patience towards me Paul and Benedictus. I should be able to respond to your latest questions within the next… couple of months.
We’re putting our house on the market this week, starting homeschooling for the first time in a few weeks, and my wife is pregnant with our fourth heavenly blessing!!!
With love in Christ,
Pete
). I am struggling to keep up with the posts I have to make with workload as well. Bad move on my part to engage in so many threads..I keep telling myself I will not log in and yet here I go again.
Hmmm, is there a CAF -Anonymous?
Wow! Another person whom God has knitted in her/his mother’s womb. Simply awesome.
May he/she grow up always aware of God’s love for him/her.:heaven:
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Pitcharan
Guest
Thank you Pete. My best wishes for your temporal chores done with spiritual zeal. May God bless your forthcoming fourth abundantlyI’m glad I took the time to read your story, Pitcharan. That was great. Praise Jesus!
Thank you for your patience towards me Paul and Benedictus. I should be able to respond to your latest questions within the next… couple of months.
We’re putting our house on the market this week, starting homeschooling for the first time in a few weeks, and my wife is pregnant with our fourth heavenly blessing!!!
With love in Christ,
Pete
Warm regards and prayers
Pitcharan
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nocode87
Guest
Hi guys, this post has been really fun to read through. Just out of curiosity, is the post above how most Catholics view the Bible, or just some? Thanks for any information!
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Pitcharan
Guest
I doubt anyone will respond. Instead of being a mere observer why don’t you also participate by sharing your own views?
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nocode87
Guest
sounds good! I am a 5 point calvinist, sympathetic to 4-pointers. i don’t have anything to add that hasn’t been stated already in this thread, but if you’d really like for me to re-state parts of the calvinist position, i’ll do my best to keep it concise!
I believe that all people are born with original sin (and that baptism does not wash it away). As a result, our wills are in bondage to sin. An analogy most have probably heard is, just as if you put a plate of veggies and a plate of meat in front of a lion, the lion will pretty much always go for the plate of meat over the veggies. it’s his nature to desire meat. similarly, it’s human nature to desire sin (I think it’s Romans 3 that says no one is righteous, no one seeks God–forgive me, I am in a hurry and do not have time to look it up!)
As a result, given the choice (which we are all given), none of us will choose to repent and follow Christ. Moreover, because we have all sinned against a righteous, just, and holy God, we ALL deserve Hell. God, in his mercy and grace, chooses to save some, and pass over others (I do not believe in double predestination). We have absolutely NO right to call God unjust for this–He is God and He can do as He pleases, and if you really wanted Him to serve us justice, then every single one of us would spend eternity in Hell. We do not know why He chooses to save some and not others, but we have no right to question God.
Well, I don’t think I have added anything important that hasn’t been said, but that is my view
By the way, though I am a non-Catholic I do believe in Lordship salvation. Catholics are correct that there are many Protestant churches teaching the false theology of “cheap grace,” but it is not what Calvinists typically believe. We agree with Catholics about the necessity of works, though we disagree about the role they play in salvation. A person who gives mere intellectual assent to Christ without following Him, we would say, has shown that they are not regenerated. Saving faith necessarily produces a life of repentance and good works in our view, and a life in submission to the Lordship of Christ.
I believe that all people are born with original sin (and that baptism does not wash it away). As a result, our wills are in bondage to sin. An analogy most have probably heard is, just as if you put a plate of veggies and a plate of meat in front of a lion, the lion will pretty much always go for the plate of meat over the veggies. it’s his nature to desire meat. similarly, it’s human nature to desire sin (I think it’s Romans 3 that says no one is righteous, no one seeks God–forgive me, I am in a hurry and do not have time to look it up!)
As a result, given the choice (which we are all given), none of us will choose to repent and follow Christ. Moreover, because we have all sinned against a righteous, just, and holy God, we ALL deserve Hell. God, in his mercy and grace, chooses to save some, and pass over others (I do not believe in double predestination). We have absolutely NO right to call God unjust for this–He is God and He can do as He pleases, and if you really wanted Him to serve us justice, then every single one of us would spend eternity in Hell. We do not know why He chooses to save some and not others, but we have no right to question God.
Well, I don’t think I have added anything important that hasn’t been said, but that is my view
By the way, though I am a non-Catholic I do believe in Lordship salvation. Catholics are correct that there are many Protestant churches teaching the false theology of “cheap grace,” but it is not what Calvinists typically believe. We agree with Catholics about the necessity of works, though we disagree about the role they play in salvation. A person who gives mere intellectual assent to Christ without following Him, we would say, has shown that they are not regenerated. Saving faith necessarily produces a life of repentance and good works in our view, and a life in submission to the Lordship of Christ.
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Pitcharan
Guest
Hi, ShakyHi Pitcharan:
{1 peter 4:18} ***And, if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and Sinner Appear.***This scripture seems to suggest even being a religious person and righteous, only a few of these persons will be saved.
These scriptures are saying you have to make sure of you salvation
{Philip 2:12} {2 peter 1:10} {heb 2:1}
I had a Jehovah witness telling me i was not Saved: because i would not believe what he was telling me: I told him I am makeing Sure by not being a heretic.
Now atlast, I think I have the answer to the query you raised then. Check out this yesterday’s post of mine: forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=6971405#post6971405
Regards
Pitcharan
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Pete_Holter
Guest
Greetings in the LORD, nocode!
You can view a discussion on this topic beginning here. Following this thread will link you to other threads and resources on the topics of inspiration, inerrancy, interpretation, etc.
In short, we believe that the Bible is comprised of the very “words of God, expressed in human language” (, 13Dei Verbum); and that “For the Church, Sacred Scripture is the Word of God, inspired by Him and therefore guaranteed by divine inerrancy in its own authentic meaning” (Pope Paul VI, General Audience, July, 1 1970, translation provided by Father Brian Harrison of the Roman Theological Forum).
I hope you have a blessed day!
Pete
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Pitcharan
Guest
I am a catholic but unqualified to be a spokesperson of my church. I had never heard about the Calvin doctrine OSAS till I came to CAF. Initially it seemed to make sense to me but now I have realised that it is NONSENSE and also a dangerous deceptive delusion. Based on my limited learning from homilies, retreats and readings I can share the following regarding interpretation of scriptures:sounds good! I am a 5 point calvinist, sympathetic to 4-pointers. i don’t have anything to add that hasn’t been stated already in this thread, but if you’d really like for me to re-state parts of the calvinist position, i’ll do my best to keep it concise!
I believe that all people are born with original sin (and that baptism does not wash it away). As a result, our wills are in bondage to sin. An analogy most have probably heard is, just as if you put a plate of veggies and a plate of meat in front of a lion, the lion will pretty much always go for the plate of meat over the veggies. it’s his nature to desire meat. similarly, it’s human nature to desire sin (I think it’s Romans 3 that says no one is righteous, no one seeks God–forgive me, I am in a hurry and do not have time to look it up!)
As a result, given the choice (which we are all given), none of us will choose to repent and follow Christ. Moreover, because we have all sinned against a righteous, just, and holy God, we ALL deserve Hell. God, in his mercy and grace, chooses to save some, and pass over others (I do not believe in double predestination). We have absolutely NO right to call God unjust for this–He is God and He can do as He pleases, and if you really wanted Him to serve us justice, then every single one of us would spend eternity in Hell. We do not know why He chooses to save some and not others, but we have no right to question God.
Well, I don’t think I have added anything important that hasn’t been said, but that is my view
By the way, though I am a non-Catholic I do believe in Lordship salvation. Catholics are correct that there are many Protestant churches teaching the false theology of “cheap grace,” but it is not what Calvinists typically believe. We agree with Catholics about the necessity of works, though we disagree about the role they play in salvation. A person who gives mere intellectual assent to Christ without following Him, we would say, has shown that they are not regenerated. Saving faith necessarily produces a life of repentance and good works in our view, and a life in submission to the Lordship of Christ.
- The whole process of mankind’s divinisation is codified and recorded in the books of The Bible.
- The report of God’s salvific project or simply “history of salvation” is most beautifully embedded in The Holy Bible in a form invisible to the ordinary reader but simultaneously visible, awesome and powerful to the inspired reader.
- Both reader and writer need the assistance of the Author who is God Himself.
On interpretation of scriptures I further recommend this excerpt from THE SINNER’S GUIDE by Louis of Granada:
*“Notwithstanding the power and efficacy of this wisdom with which God fills the souls of the just, no man, however great the light he has received, should refuse to submit his judgment to his lawful superiors, especially the authorized teachers and doctors of the Church. Who ever received greater light than St. Paul, who was raised to the third heaven; or than Moses, who spoke face to face with God? Yet St. Paul went to Jerusalem to confer with the Apostles upon the Gospel which he had received from Christ Himself; and Moses did not disdain to accept the advice of his father-in-law, Jethro, who was a Gentile. For the interior aids of grace do not exclude the exterior succors of the Church. Divine Providence has willed to make them both an aid to our salvation. As the natural heat of our body is stimulated by that of the sun, and the healing powers of nature are aided by exterior remedies, so the light of grace is strengthened by the teaching and direction of the Church. Whoever refuses, therefore, to humble himself and submit to her authority will render himself unworthy of any favor from God.” *
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clmowry
Guest
Let me know where to join:Take your time (I prefer you do
I keep telling myself I will not log in and yet here I go again.
Hmmm, is there a CAF -Anonymous?
Hello, my name is Chuck and I’m a binge poster…
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Pitcharan
Guest
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Daughter0fMary
Guest
"If any one says that man’s free will, moved and awakened by God, does in no manner co-operate when it assents to God, Who excites and calls it, thereby didsposing and preparing itself to receive the grace of justification; and (if any one says) that it cannot dissent if it wishes, but that, like some inanimate thing, it does nothing whatever, and only remains passive, let him be anathema. D 814, Council of Trent (See “Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma,” section on predestination by Dr. Ludwig Ott for more accurate reference)
I thought I would just put that out there; the Catholic Church does have a definitive teaching about predestination, in case someone was confused about what the Catholic Church actually does teach on it. God is love
I thought I would just put that out there; the Catholic Church does have a definitive teaching about predestination, in case someone was confused about what the Catholic Church actually does teach on it. God is love
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Bengoshi
Guest
Another one of those anathemas…"If any one says that man’s free will, moved and awakened by God, does in no manner co-operate when it assents to God, Who excites and calls it, thereby didsposing and preparing itself to receive the grace of justification; and (if any one says) that it cannot dissent if it wishes, but that, like some inanimate thing, it does nothing whatever, and only remains passive, let him be anathema. D 814, Council of Trent (See “Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma,” section on predestination by Dr. Ludwig Ott for more accurate reference)
I thought I would just put that out there; the Catholic Church does have a definitive teaching about predestination, in case someone was confused about what the Catholic Church actually does teach on it. God is love
Anyway, just two quick considerations about what you quoted. First, the only reason that man’s free will cooperates with God’s gospel call is exactly because of effectual grace. Second, a person predestined and called by God will not even wish to dissent. So, in a way, I see nothing wrong with what the Council of Trent said. The elect will never feel coerced but shall willingly put their faith in God. Jesus is, after all, the author and perfecter of our faith (Heb. 12:2).
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