Tackling Predestination

[Bengoshi]

People choose their own destinations through their actions. You can choose to accept God, or to not accept Him. And God can see our hearts and tell if we’re truly sorry or not.

I guess in theory God already knows who’s going to heaven and who isn’t, since He isn’t bound by time. But IMO that would be boring to skip ahead. It would be like watching the end of a movie or reading the end of the book before seeing how the characters got there. Why not just stay in the present and forgive sins as they happen, watch the people learn and grow?

Regarding assurance of salvation, only God knows if we’re saved. We are saved by His grace. Faith in Christ and being a good person (living by His teachings) help, but ultimately God chooses who goes to heaven. What if you are good right now, accept Christ, and then later on go crazy and become a mass murderer? I don’t think “once saved, always saved” works. It depends on the state of your soul when you die, and whether or not you’re sorry for your past sins when that time comes.

It depends on your view of OSAS or Eternal Security. As I’ve said in a previous post, there are those like theologians Wayne Grudem, John Piper, R.C. Sproul, etc. who link Eternal Security with Perseverance of the Saints. Only a person who perseveres until the end is a genuine Christian. Those who “fall away” were never even saved in the the first place and are not part of the elect.

 

[diggerdomer]

(Edited) Are not Augustine and Aquinas Catholic saints and doctors of the Church? What the RCC teaches is what the pope and its councils teach. The Church is the people of God, the body of Christ.

(Edited)

Yes, as the Catholic Church teaches, Augustine and Aquinas are saints and doctors of the Church. So your point is…what?

Yes, as the Catholic Church teaches, the Church is the People of God and the Body of Christ. So…again…your point is…what?

Can’t we understand human language that that it should always be the RCC that should interpret things for us? God gave us intellect for us to use you know…

I’m sorry, I really don’t know what you mean by this. Can you read it and clarify? Thanks.

 

[diggerdomer]

You do know that the divinity of Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit is taught by Scripture. .

No, in fact, Scripture is more ambiguous than you think. Of COURSE the witness of Scripture is coherent with Christian understanding of the divinity of Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit. The point is…Scripture in and of itself did not teach such clearly and objectively.

If not, the Church would not have had the need to convene ecumenical councils to combat heresies (based on Scripture) and define, explicitly, the truth about Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit.

If you have any examples to the contrary from Scripture, please share. I’m sure any example you give was considered by the heretics who claimed Jesus was not divine and/or human, or that the Spirit was not God. Thanks.

 

[paul_c]

Well…there is a slight but significant difference however. If I may illustrate. Let’s say Max, a Catholic, comes out of the confessional and is now in the state of grace, but commits a mortal sin, let say, after 3 hours, and immediately after that gets hit by a bus while crossing the street and dies. Will he still be saved and ultimately go to heaven? According to Catholic theology, he wouldn’t, he would go to hell. In contrast, Sam, a Protestant, after sincerely repenting of his sins to God, commits what the RCC classifies as a mortal sin 3 hours thereafter without abandoning his faith and love for Christ, and immediately gets hits by a bus while crossing the street, causing his instantaneous death, would according to Protestant theology, still be saved and go to heaven. That is the kind of assurance I am talking about. Do you see the difference?

You are being inconsistent. If you commit a mortal sin, then you have abandoned your faith by your prior definition and would be condemned.

But lets face it, if you are right and all you need is faith, then the Catholic would go to heaven in your bus accident scenario as readily as the Protestant because hes has done everything the Protestant has done and he too believes in Jesus’ saving power.

However, if you are wrong and you really need sacramental forgiveness for sins, then you will be condemned while your Catholic counterpart who confessed sacramentally will go to heaven.

 

[paul_c]

This is where we will disagree. Our good works will not merit us anything (Eph. 2:8-9; Gal. 2:16; Rom. 3:28). Our good works are however evidence of our faith in God. We will know a disciple by his fruits.

This is again logically inconsistent. If you know a disciple by his good works and a disciple has a choice on whether to do them or not, then there is merit in making the correct choice.

Why are you afraid of recognizing the merit of the Saints? When the man with the 5 talents, made 5 more, Jesus praised him as a good servant and put him in charge of 5 cities did he not. He was recognizing the merits of what he did. conversely, the man that buried his coin in the ground and earned nothing with what he had been given had even that coin taken away.

You can have merit without diminishing Christ’s merits in any way.

 

[Bengoshi]

I am not blinded by Rome (whatever that means?).

Yes, as the Catholic Church teaches, Augustine and Aquinas are saints and doctors of the Church. So your point is…what?

Yes, as the Catholic Church teaches, the Church is the People of God and the Body of Christ. So…again…your point is…what?

I’m sorry, I really don’t know what you mean by this. Can you read it and clarify? Thanks.

Please read the post I responded to so that you would understand.

 

[Bengoshi]

You are being inconsistent. If you commit a mortal sin, then you have abandoned your faith by your prior definition and would be condemned.

But lets face it, if you are right and all you need is faith, then the Catholic would go to heaven in your bus accident scenario as readily as the Protestant because hes has done everything the Protestant has done and he too believes in Jesus’ saving power.

However, if you are wrong and you really need sacramental forgiveness for sins, then you will be condemned while your Catholic counterpart who confessed sacramentally will go to heaven.

I am not being inconsistent. A person who commits a sin does not necessarily abandon his faith. We live in a fallen world, even if we are already believers, we will still sin.

 

[Bengoshi]

This is again logically inconsistent. If you know a disciple by his good works and a disciple has a choice on whether to do them or not, then there is merit in making the correct choice.

Again, it is not inconsistent. You’re just not trying to understand what I’m saying. There is a hairline difference. Good works do not MERIT us anything in addition to God’s grace which earns us salvation. Good works have value only as evidence or proof of our faith.

Why are you afraid of recognizing the merit of the Saints? When the man with the 5 talents, made 5 more, Jesus praised him as a good servant and put him in charge of 5 cities did he not. He was recognizing the merits of what he did. conversely, the man that buried his coin in the ground and earned nothing with what he had been given had even that coin taken away.

You can have merit without diminishing Christ’s merits in any way.

I am not afraid, why would I be? We are saved by grace through faith, NOT BY WORKS. The parable of the talents is about enriching what God already gave us in the forst place. IT is not about salvation by works. Christ’s work/merit on the cross is sufficient for our salvation, we do not need to add to it for doing so would be tantamount to saying that it is not sufficient.

 

[diggerdomer]

Please read the post I responded to so that you would understand.

I did read that post, before I posted my comment. It was only after reading your response, and the post you responded to, that I posted my comment.

If you don’t care to explain or clarify, or if I’m just too dense, that’s fine.

Thanks.

 

[shaky]

You are being inconsistent. If you commit a mortal sin, then you have abandoned your faith by your prior definition and would be condemned.

But lets face it, if you are right and all you need is faith, then the Catholic would go to heaven in your bus accident scenario as readily as the Protestant because hes has done everything the Protestant has done and he too believes in Jesus’ saving power.

However, if you are wrong and you really need sacramental forgiveness for sins, then you will be condemned while your Catholic counterpart who confessed sacramentally will go to heaven.

Hi paul

To me works is faith in Action what ever work it is: So because of your faith you are constantly practicing your faith every day every minute.
When you say the lords prayer daily you are asking God to forgive you your Sins as we forgive Sins that are sinned against us.

I dont think it is about the letter of the law. but rather the spirit of the law.
When you think you need to go to confession and see a priest. Have you asked God to forgive you first??
Also God is Reasonable: If you intended to go to confession at a certain time but something happens and you die first before you have done the Sacrament.
God knows that you had the Intention.

I hear there are 7 sacraments. but i only know 3 of them. what are the other 4?
Also what are venial Sins? What affect do these have and what are done with them?

Also what is the difference between Saints and the Normal Assembly of Christians in the church?
What are Nuns and Monks?
What are priests?
What is a cardinal?
I know what a bishop is what is a Arc bishop.

Some churches i have gone to taught that the whole congregation each person was a priest and a saint

 

[Pitcharan]

…Christ’s work/merit on the cross is sufficient for our salvation, we do not need to add to it for doing so would be tantamount to saying that it is not sufficient.

St.Paul:

Now I rejoice in what was suffered for you, and I fill up in my flesh what is still lacking in regard to Christ’s afflictions, for the sake of his body, which is the church. (Col 1:24)

 

[benedictus2]

This is the sad part about being Catholic, you’re not even sure of your salvation.

Actually this is the sad part about your inconsistent and almost delusional belief.

Here is why it is delusional:

You claim you are certain of your salvation.

According to you God predestines people to hell or to heaven.
According to you God gives effectual grace that makes people able to say yes and only yes to God.
According to you those who will be saved are those who persevere to the end.

Now here’s the problem…If perseverance is dependent on effectual grace or whatever grace God gives, then it is only when we die that we will know for sure that God has given us the grace to persevere. You are probably at mid life, still some time to go. How can you be sure that you will persevere? How can you be sure that God will give you the grace to persevere?

What if you are infact one of those that He has predestined to hell? I mean based on everything that you have presented here and that article that you asked me to read, you could very well be one of the reprobate whom God has momentarily given effective grace to. After all, your God is a capricious God who will whatever He will. So perhaps a few years down the track He will cease to give you the grace to persevere and you and sin will become very well acquainted indeed.

If God has already determined where you are going even before you were born, at this stage, the chance is 50/50 for you of ending in hell. And according to you, you absolutely have not say about it. No need to pray because your prayer will have no effect. After all everything has already been predestined.

So at any time, according to His pleasure, God can withdraw His grace so you will give in to sin and when you die Satan says welcome home.

And this was determined from the beginning of time.

So if you get there, don’t question God because according to you it is only just that you end down there. After all God wills what He wills.

So based on the above, your belief is completely inconsistent since one cannot be assured of salvation if one does not know if one is either a reprobate or an elect considering that all these is only known after death because then and and only then can the person know that he has perservered because he has been given the grace of perserverance.

 

[benedictus2]

This is the sad part about being Catholic, you’re not even sure of your salvation. How can you effectively serve God or have joy in your heart when at the end of the day, you’re not even sure if you’ll be with God? St. Paul tell us to rejoice because of the hope that we have in Christ.

Aaah, and there is the reason why the Catholic serve God with Joy. Because we have HOPE in Christ. Hope is not certainty. When you are certain you do not hope.

If you are certain that you have answered all the tests in the exam correctly, you will not say " I hope I pass". You will rather say “I will pass”.

Hope is the correct theology.

However, everyone commits mortal sins as defined by the RCC, so all Catholics are in danger of going to hell. It may just be a case of a person’s timing of death.

But that is precisely why according to you, we must persevere. Dying in mortal sin is a sure sign that we have not persevered don’t you think ?

 

[benedictus2]

I did read that post, before I posted my comment. It was only after reading your response, and the post you responded to, that I posted my comment.

If you don’t care to explain or clarify, or if I’m just too dense, that’s fine.

Thanks.

Yes you did read the post and responded quite well in fact. The illogicality of his own post and your attempt at highlighting it for him was completely lost on Bengoshi.

You’re not the one who is dense.

I think you were attempting to illustrate that noting that Augustine and Aquinas were doctors and saints of the Catholic Church does not make his case for him. He does not realize that saints and doctors do not a magisterium make.

He completely missed that point.

 

[benedictus2]

This is where we will disagree. Our good works will not merit us anything (Eph. 2:8-9; Gal. 2:16; Rom. 3:28). Our good works are however evidence of our faith in God. We will know a disciple by his fruits.

Hmmm, so the atheist’s good works and the non-believers good works is evidence of their faith in God?

 

[benedictus2]

Well…there is a slight but significant difference however. If I may illustrate. Let’s say Max, a Catholic, comes out of the confessional and is now in the state of grace, but commits a mortal sin, let say, after 3 hours, and immediately after that gets hit by a bus while crossing the street and dies. Will he still be saved and ultimately go to heaven? According to Catholic theology, he wouldn’t, he would go to hell. In contrast, Sam, a Protestant, after sincerely repenting of his sins to God, commits what the RCC classifies as a mortal sin 3 hours thereafter without abandoning his faith and love for Christ, and immediately gets hits by a bus while crossing the street, causing his instantaneous death, would according to Protestant theology, still be saved and go to heaven. That is the kind of assurance I am talking about. Do you see the difference?

You obviously have got no understanding of mortal sin.
Mortal sin is a definitive and forceful no to God. It is murdering, raping, etc with full knowledge that it is a sin and knowing that God is there encouraging him not to do it but he thumbs his nose at God and says to him no I will not obey you. I will kill, main, rape and do as I please.

That is mortal sin.

The man who comes from confession has less chance of doing that because confession is much more than being forgiven. It confers grace that enables you to be stronger and be able to fight sin more.

So your analogy is faulty. Again.

 

[benedictus2]

I hold the view espoused by Dr. Grudem. The assurance that I have is of the present. Since I have not fallen away from the faith as of this moment, and I know and hope within myself that I would not, then as of the moment, I am assured of my salvation and election.

That is a lemon of an assurance. You are not dead yet. Assurance pertains to when we die, i.e. when we will be sure that we have persevered unto death. Or did that escape Grudem’s calculation.

If only you will think that one through and see how inconsistent it is.

So, if anyone asks me now if I am saved, then I would say ‘yes’.

Sorry to disabuse you but you are not. Until you get to heaven you cannot definitively say yes you are saved. God could withhold effective grace in your next breath and based on your earllier reasonings, then down the gurgler you go.

What can truthfully be said without question is that you are indeed being saved.

If this is the position that the Catholic Church holds, then I have no problem with it. I do not agree with Charles Stanley’s view of Eternal Security although I highly respect and admire him as a pastor. He teaches that if a person at one point in his/her life, sincerely confesses that ‘Jesus is Lord’ and accepts Him into his/her life as Lord and Savior, then that person, regardless of what happens in the future, even if s/he completely rejects Christ afterwards, is still saved.

Who ever this Charles Stanley is he has to go back and re-read the Bible. It seems he missed a humongous chunk of it.

 

[benedictus2]

This is where we will disagree. Our good works will not merit us anything (Eph. 2:8-9; Gal. 2:16; Rom. 3:28). Our good works are however evidence of our faith in God. We will know a disciple by his fruits.

Eph 2:8-9 does not say that good works does not merit us anything. What it says is that we are not saved by good works. Different things.

Gal 2:16 does not say that good works do not merit us anything. What it does say is we are not justified by works of the law

Rom 3:28 does not say that good works do not merit us anything . What it does say is person is justified by faith apart from works of the law.

I suggest you read up on what St Paul means by works of the law and why he wrote thus.
You are only able to cite the above texts as proof texts becuase you misunderstood what the text (the entire chapters) are all about. If you expand the quotation to the entire chapter you will realize that it does not support your view at all.****

 

[benedictus2]

Please read the post I responded to so that you would understand.

Diggerdomer did. You might read his point and try to think why replied thus.

 

[benedictus2]

This is an aspect of the Catholic teaching that never made sense to me. And it all surrounds this notion of the finality of hell. It doesn’t make sense.

Let’s say you have five children. You do your best to raise them well. But as they get older they all fall in with the wrong kind of friends who only bring them down, and they get into all sorts of vices, and eventually they die and go to hell. But you stayed true to your faith, and went to heaven. But how are you able to enjoy the fruits of heaven knowing all five of your beloved children are rotting in eternal torment forever?? Does God just erase all memory of your kids, so that you can enjoy paradise better?

No. All souls will eventually find their way back to God. And the tools for them to complete that journey were put in place before they began.

The teaching on hell is not something we can equivocate about because it comes straight from Jesus.

Hell is the final no to God. But the final answer of either yes or no is shaped by the yeses and noes that we give to God through out our life.

The more we say yes to God the easier it is to say yes to God at the end of our lives. Those who continually say no will find it easier to give the final no.

It has been said that the first murder is hard but it gets easier after that. Our spiritual muscles are like our physical muscles, that which we exercise is what grows.

I can’t remember who said no one goes to hell with a venial sin but for sure their mortal sins started with a venial one.