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benedictus2
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Hy my name is B2 and I am CAF binge poster. I have not posted for 26 days
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benedictus2
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Because for the damned God’s love is hell. That which fills that saints with joy - God’s Love and light - is precisely the very thing that gives pain to the damned.
God does not send them there. They choose to be in hell, it is the final No to God’s love and mercy.
This link might help clarify it for you.
youtube.com/watch?v=x8zhnooySk4
That is not the point of the current exercise.
Sorry but that is an illogical argument. What about I say show me where Jesus refutes marxism, or capitalism or the big bang theory?
Christ was born once and died once and resurrected once. Christian teaching is that this is our destiny as well for this is precisely what he came to earth, suffered, died and rose for.
And what would that be? Please cite verses. I have a feeling you are buying into new age rubbish.
No it doesn’t. If re-incarnation is being perfected through many lives, then that perfection is just as easily attained in this life by following Christ. I don’t know how re-incarnation would make predestination sensible. They are both un-christian propositions in so far as predestination is understood in the Calvinist way.
And who said only a few elect souls are assigned to Jesus?
There are indeed the elect but I don’t think the elect is the sum total of all that will be saved.
God is omniscient. If you go to Hell you deserve to be there. Any more chances given will still end up the same.
There is a little story that my mother told me to illustrate this.
An evil man went to hell and upon the entreaty of his family was given a chance. A rope was extended so that he can be hauled out of the fire. He was given instruction to not let go of the rope or he will end back down again. As he was climbing up, others started climbing up with him. He got so mad that they were trying to get out as well so he started stamping on their head with his feet. When others made it mid way, he started punching them with his fist, which meant letting go of the rope.
God is just and God does not make mistakes. If we end up there we deserve it.
But God is love, so every waking moment of our lives, He gives us enough grace to say yes to Him. That we say no is entirely our fault becuase there is always enough grace to say yes. Our choices shape us. Our choices shape us into the image of His Son (Deification hence salvation) or shapes us into the image of the devil (damnation).
And this is just a ludicrous demand. Why must we learn from our mistakes when learning from other’s mistakes is also available.
Must one be an adulterer to know that adultery is bad? Must one be a prostitute to somehow know that prostitution is bad? Must one steal, kill, blaspheme, before one decides that these are all wrong and must not be even entertained in thought? It is more possible that dabbling in these will make one more inclined towards sin.
God being love is not conditioned by your premises on what makes God loving. We do not determine the criteria of what loving is - God determines that.
All you are saying here is you want salvation on YOUR TERMS which means you are saying you are god not Christ.
This is exactly what got us in this quagmire in the first place. Pride and disobedience.
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twb1621
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My brother, it is not how I put it but what Christ teaches us and what He expects of us from those teachings. Now that you understand the Catholic Faith’s reference to Faith and works, that still leaves the unanswered questions I presented to you. I am sure there are other issues you have held (as others) incorrectly and you should, in devotion to Christ, wish to clear those up as well, The questions you have yet to answer once answered correctly will lead you to ALL TRUTH in Christ. This is of course the reason there is such a growing number of scholars and preachers and pastors, ministers, bishops and teachers of various faiths returning “Home” to the Bride of Christ, His one true Body. It is an expression to the fact that the more one learns, the more one sees the Truth and Fullness of the Catholic Faith.Bengoshi said:If that’s how you put it, then I agree with everything you said in this post.Genuine Christians will do good works because their faith in Christ compels them to. Faith in Christ produces true love in the believer. We must always remember however, that all these things, our faith, hope and love, comes from God. It is only by His sovereign grace that we are able to do anything good at all.
So I would again ask that you please respond with your understanding or even a question if that is the case as to these points I raised with you as it is most applicable to the subject of the thread.
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benedictus2
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This is ABSOLUTE NEW AGE RUBBISH! That is nothing more than self deification!
I/Me/Myself am God so I will come to you on my own terms and on my own time. Total hogwash!!
God is supreme He decides, where and when not you piddly little mortal.
This is exactly the kind of pride that landed us in this deep rubbish to put is mildly.
Please do show us where Jesus said that John the Baptist is Elijah.
This link might help you too.
gotquestions.org/John-Baptist-Elijah.html
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benedictus2
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You really have a rather deficient understanding of judgment. God will judge us according to the talents, abilities and graces that He gave us. A crippled is not expected to run as fast as the well trained healthy athlete. That would make God unjust and God is not unjust.
This is really sad. Life is a journey. A journey into perfection where God aids you with His grace to complete the journey.
Even when you are surrounded on all four side by evil the moment you are born, God does not cease to give you the grace to choose right.
What makes you think that all suicides bombers are condemned to hell. What makes you think that God does not take into account the circumstances of their birth, the coercion and manipulation involved and how badly their will is impaired by the programming that went prior to the actual bombing?
Seriously, you need to read up more on what Catholics really believe. A lot of what you have written stem from mis conception and flawed reasoning.
You are rather confused here. One can deny predestination and still affirm the finality of hell.
But God did not make that soul into a suicide bomber. And you do not know how God will judge that suicide bomber. If we humans are capable of understanding and coming up with mitigating circumstances, God who reads souls can do that even more so.
Again, you are so mixed up and you have no clue as to what Church teaches. You are making assumption on the eternal fate of people when only God knows that. Where has the church taught that all suicide bombers go to hell? You have jumped to false conclusions based on false premises.
And who claims to have fallen on fertile soil? Life is indeed a series of choices because as I said before our choices make us. Lie a little here, cheat a little there and before you know it you are into the big game of serious lying and serious cheating. We will always be judged on how well we follow the promptings of God’s voice. Mind you, the rationalization that we do will also be taken into account. For every time we try to rationalize an act, it is most likely a sinful act. Virtous acts do not need rationalization.
And the life that landed in the middle east will be assesed according to the circumstances of life in the middle east. Simple as that.
Oh, is that a fact?
You know what you are doing? You are trying to rationalize a faulty understanding of predestination with a heretical view of salvation - reincarnation.
That is like mopping the floor with a muddy cloth.
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benedictus2
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Yes you are being inconsistent. You said earlier that good works is a testament or result of faith. What then is bad works (sin) a result of ?
And you failed to address this point in Paul’s reply
paul c:
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benedictus2
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How does God’s grace EARN us salvation. To earn presupposes an active working.
Which then proves your earlier statement wrong because you said you can still have faith and sin. If good works is a proof of our faith, then sin is a proof of no faith don’t you think?
We are indeed saved by grace through faith. But what exactly does it mean to be saved by grace?
To be saved by grace is to be given enough grace to be conformed to the image of Christ who is LOVE. We can say we are saved when we LOVE truly like Christ. Thing is, LOVE IS WORK. This is evidenced by His healing of the sick (work), by His buiding His Church (work), by His agony and death on the cross (work). When we are conformed to Christ we participate in His divine life by loving and thus by working because our salvation is not passive. It is active and this is the way God willed it to be so.
And the more we work with LOVE, the more loving we become and the more conformed to Christ we become.
That is why St Paul said we must work out our salvation in fear and trembling.
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benedictus2
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And neither do you.Bengoshi said:
You just haven’t put your soteriology through the microscope like I have - a few posts prior. It’s full of holes and inconsistencies. The only way you can hang on to it is by swallowing it hook line and sinker without examining it and putting it through a rigorous thought process.As a matter of fact, Catholic soteriology has a more solid and sound view of “confident hope” in salvation than your own.
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benedictus2
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I think that is a very good way of putting it - works is a practicing of faith.
And this is like a circle such that faith, when practiced through works of love, increases and a growing faith causes a growth in works of love until we are fully conformed to the God who is Love.
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twb1621
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You are mistaken in your assumption and have actually suggested two different scenarios whether you realize it or not. Lets give both men the same characteristics as in both commit the sin “without abandoning his faith and love for Christ”. Lets look at your supposition;Bengoshi said:
As a Catholic and being fully aware of the necessity and blessings of the Sacrament of reconciliation, a Catholic who does commit such a mortal sin is fully aware he needs to reconcile with God for the forgiveness of sin and with a contrite heart would or should have the intention to confess as soon as possible. If he is then killed before being sincerely capable of making such reconciliation, it is our faith and trust in His Divine Mercy and it is the sinners contriteness or sincerity of heart to ask forgiveness and repent that Christ will judge and of which he most certainly may be forgiven.
The Sacrament of Reconciliation offers absolution for those sins repented but it also offers us the additional grace which strengthens us in our struggles to overcome the temptation of sin. Further, as we know we are to be humble, by humbly confessing our sins we are strengthened even more so as we have shared our weakness with an earthly servant of Christ in His Church which as most human beings would acknowledge, offers further support against repeating the same or even other sins. Christ did not give His representatives on earth the authority to forgive or retain sin for no reason and all throughout the gospels we see Christ’s intent for His Church was to remain in tact and in authority until His return.
The difference is, Sam the protestant has been misguided in what he has been led to believe in ignoring participation in the Sacraments Jesus has given us. Sam, although he may not recognize it, denies obedience to take part and benefit from what Christ has given us through these Sacraments because he believes that which man has taught based on man’s own personal selective beliefs against what Scripture and the history of the Church has consistently taught us. Sam does not receive all the additional graces of the seven Sacraments nor does he obtain the level of intimacy in a relationship with God as he could if he were taking part in those gifts Christ gave us in His Blood.
Sam also has to question to himself, if the Sacrament of Reconciliation were not necessary and was not intended to be a gift of God through His Church for man’s obedience to His Word, why then did Jesus give this authority to the apostles in the first place if it were only necessary to ask God’s forgiveness directly? The Preaching of the Gospel was to be taken forth to all nations, to every creature, and until Jesus returned, so how could it even be limited to only a specific time during the life of His Church?
Secondly, as we know in scripture, we are not to receive the Eucharist (also a Sacrament) unworthily, (Example: 1 Corinthians CH11, v26). Refusing to take part in the Sacrament of Reconciliation which is intended to bring us to worthiness that we may take part in another most **Blessed **Sacrament, the Eucharist, is more than just receiving the Eucharist unworthily, but in defiance as well. But if Sam were fully aware of the teachings and chose to ignore them, Sam’s “assurance” would be seriously jeopardized. Take note to the dates of these few excerpts from the writings of the Apostolic Fathers in the following post;
continued…
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twb1621
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The DidacheBengoshi said:
Confess your sins in church, and do not go up to your prayer with an evil conscience. This is the way of life. . . , On the Lord’s Day gather together, break bread, and give thanks, after confessing your transgressions so that your sacrifice may be pure (Didache 4:14,14:1 A.D.70]).
The Letter of Barnabas
You shall judge righteously. You shall not make a schism, but you shall pacify those that contend by bringing them together. You shall confess your sins. You shall not go to prayer with an evil conscience. This is the way of light (Letter of Barnabas 19 A.D. 74]).
Ignatius of Antioch
For as many as are of God and of Jesus Christ are also with the bishop. And as many as shall, in the exercise of penance, return into the unity of the Church, these, too, shall belong to God, that they may live according to Jesus Christ (Letter to the Philadelphians 3 A.D. 110]).
For where there is division and wrath, God does not dwell. To all them that repent, the Lord grants forgiveness, if they turn in penitence to the unity of God, and to communion with the bishop (ibid. 8).
Irenaeus
[The Gnostic disciples of Marcus] have deluded many women. . . Their consciences have been branded as with a hot iron. Some of these women make a public confession, but others are ashamed to do this, and in silence, as if withdrawing from themselves the hope of life of God, they either apostatize entirely or hesitate between two courses (Against Heresies 1:22 A.D. 189]).
Tertullian
[Regarding confession, some] flee from this work as being an exposure of themselves, or they put it off from day to day. I presume they are more mindful of modesty than of salvation, like those who contract a disease in the more shameful parts of the body and shun making themselves known to the physicians; and thus they perish along with their own bashfulness (*Repentance *10:1 A.D. 203]).
The Church has the power of forgiving sins. This I acknowledge and adjudge (ibid. 21).
Hippolytus
[The bishop conducting the ordination of the new bishop shall pray:] God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ. . . pour forth now that power which comes from you, from your Royal Spirit, which you gave to your beloved Son, Jesus Christ, and which he bestowed upon his holy apostles. . . and grant this your servant, whom you have chosen for the episcopate, [the power] to feed your holy flock and to serve without blame as your high priest, ministering night and day to propitiate unceasingly before your face and to offer to you the gifts of your holy Church, and by the Spirit of the high priesthood to have the authority to forgive sins, in accord with your command (Apostolic Tradition 3 A.D. 215]).
Origen
[A filial method of forgiveness], albeit hard and laborious [is] the remission of sins through penance, when the sinner . . . does not shrink from declaring his sin to a priest of the Lord and from seeking medicine, after the manner of him who say, “I said, to the Lord, I will accuse myself of my iniquity” (Homilies in Leviticus 2:4 A.D. 248]).
Again, one should become suspicious of any system of beliefs that bases itself on Christ’s teachings but separates itself teaching LESS than what had been taught consistently for 2000 years from the only Church that has existed since Christ founded it.
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benedictus2
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Actually it is canonical. Study Christian history and you will know that it is canonical. This profound bereftness in Protestant’s knowledge of Christian history is what makes them make such absurd claims.
You are saying that God exists in time?
Voila! And OT saints are did not have faith in Christ . So how did they get saved since according to you faith in Christ is what is necessary for salvation?
Besides your reasoning is askew. OT saints are judged according to OT law. God the Father gave them prescriptions of sacrifices on how sins may be remitted.
Not according to the Gospel of John. But perhaps you hold to a different gospel, a manmade one
That is also true. But Christ is quite explicit in John 20 of how He wishes to dispense of that forgiveness. But again you probably have a different gospel. To say otherwise is to go AGAINST Christ’s expressed will.
Ahah! And how do you know that for a fact? Who said so? Did Jesus say so? Did God say so? Who determined that the Bible is indeed the word of God?
Sola Scriptura is an invention of the reformers that protestants themselves are finding hard to defend such that they had gone to all sort of convolutions to define and re-define Sola Scriptura.
Simply put, Sola Scriptura is A TRADITION OF MAN.
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paul_c
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Sure, part of the sacrament of reconciliation is the prayer of contrition to God.
Catholics agree with this point of view.
There are 3 sacraments of initiation:
- Baptism, by which a person is brought into the chruch, foregiven all prior sins and brought into the state of grace. This can be at any age.
- Confirmation, where the bishop lays hands on the candidate and he gains the gifts of the holy spirit. This is done for children when they are at an age to make their own decisions.
- The eucharist: Can be done daily as part of the mass. We recieve Jesus Body and Blood
There are 2 sacraments of healing:
- Reconciliation, where we confess our sins to the priest, repent and do penance to be forgiven of out sins. This can be done as often as needed.
- Annointing of the sick: hands are laid on the very ill, to prepare them for the journey to heaven. It includes the eucharist and reconciliation
- Holy orders: where a man is annointed as a deacon, priest, of bishop
- Marriage: where a man and a woman are joined to cooperate in the creation of new life (among other things)
these are minor sins that do not sever our relation to God. However they can lead to Mortal sin (small sins lead to larger ones). These can be forgiven with the eucharist and also in the sacrament of reconciliation.
A Saint is generally recognized as someone in heaven.
Nuns and Monks are women and men (respectively) who have vowed to live lives in service of God and the Church. Typically, they make three vows: poverty, chastity and obedience to their superior.
priests are men who have been ordained by a bishop to have the power to consecrate the eucharist, preach and hear confessions. Priests in the Roman rite must normally be celebate. This is not true of the 22 eastern churches in communion with Rome.
A cardinal is a member of the Catholic Clergy eligible to vote for the next pope.
A bishop can speak for the church, ordain priests and confirm people into the church. Normally a bishop is responsible for a specific area. However, Some cities are too large for one man to handle all the duties. In this case, there is an Archbishop responsbile for the city as a whole and then he has auxiliary bishops to help with the workload. For instance. NY city has an archbishop and 5 auxiliary bishops.
To summarize the clerical heirarchy:
- Deacons: can preach, baptize and marry. They may also be married themselves.
- Priests can do every thing a Deacon can do, but also can consecrate the eucharist and hear confessions:
- Bishops can do everything a priest can do plus ordain priests , confirm people into the church, He has teaching authority for his area. Bishops are named by the Pope and as such are successors to the Apostles.
- Archbishops: Bishops with responsibility for large areas that have auxilliary bishops
- Cardinals: can be deacons, priests, bishops, or archbishops. They uniquely have the right to vote for the next pope and they are also named by the Pope.
- The Pope: head of the church, and supreme teaching authority. Elected by the Cardinals (under 80 years old) by a 2/3rd vote when the previous pope dies
They were also confused. A man must be ordained by a successor of the Apostles to be a valid priest. And you will only become a saint when you enter heaven. Prior to that, you can’t be sure…Some churches i have gone to taught that the whole congregation each person was a priest and a saint
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benedictus2
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Some monks are part of the clergy since some have taken Holy Orders and been ordained although there are a lot who do not do so.
It is true that we are all priests (the priesthood of the baptized or the common priesthood) which however is different to the ordained priesthood.
It is also true that we are all saints if we go by I think St Augustine’s definition that a saint is the person who knows he is a sinner
More precisely though I think we are all saints in the making.
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paul_c
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You are a binge poster.Some monks are part of the clergy since some have taken Holy Orders and been ordained although there are a lot who do not do so.
It is true that we are all priests (the priesthood of the baptized or the common priesthood) which however is different to the ordained priesthood.
It is also true that we are all saints if we go by I think St Augustine’s definition that a saint is the person who knows he is a sinner
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Pete_Holter
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The Exodus has been posting about predestination recently.
At first he identified with Molinism: First Post.
But now he leans toward Thomism: Second Post.
He also offers these additional remarks: Third Post.
I thought you might appreciate his thoughts on this.
In Christ,
Pete
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benedictus2
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Well it seems you missed the last bit (Mt 25:30) regarding the punishment for those who did not work and use their talents. It went “And throw that worthless slave into the outer darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth”
Contrast that with the reward given to those WORKED by using their talents. (Mt 25:22 ‘Well done, good and faithful slave! You have been faithful with a few things. I will put you in charge of many things. Enter into the joy of your master.
And who said that parable of the talents is about salvation by works. Christs WORK on the cross is indeed sufficient for salvation because by it the grace necessary for salvation has been made available to us.
What does that exactly mean? That the grace necessary for us to do WORKS OF LOVE IN IMMITATION OF CHRIST, has been given. Salvation consists in deification and this is a work in progress
.Pirtcharan gave you a brilliant comeback on this one in the words of St Paul .
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benedictus2
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And that is the sad reality. :sad_yes:
Well the consolation ( if one can call it that) is I am not alone. Clmowry it seems is similarly afflicted.
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benedictus2
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I think you got your thread’s mixed up. The post by Bengoshi that you were replying to was not in response to **The Exodus **(he does not seem to be in this thread) but to diggerdomer.
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Bengoshi
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Col. 1:24 I am filling up (Gk. antanaplēroō) what is lacking (Gk. hysterēma) in Christ’s afflictions does not imply that there is a deficiency in Christ’s atoning death and suffering on the cross, which would contradict the central message of this letter and all the rest of Scripture as well (cf. Heb. 9:12, 24–26; 10:14). Christ’s sufferings are in fact sufficient, and nothing of one’s own can be added to secure salvation. What was “lacking” in Christ’s afflictions was the future suffering of all who (like Paul) will experience great affliction for the sake of the gospel, as Paul described, e.g., in 2 Cor. 1:8–10. (Cf. Phil. 2:30, where Paul tells the Philippians that Epaphroditus risked his life “to complete [Gk. anaplēroō] what was lacking [Gk. hysterēma] in your service to me”.)
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