S
SIA
Guest
Where in the Scriptures does it tell us that anything that you claim as truth outside of the Scriptures is truth? It doesn’t.
- Status
S
SIA
Guest
?? Do the research yourself. Read the Greek text and see where Petros and Petras is used and how they are used. Jesus founded his Church upon Jesus formally. How could the Christian Church of God be founded upon anything but? Yes, Peter was put in charge but not to do things that are divine.
S
SenorSalsa
Guest
This is true. But you yourself admit that Peter was put in charge. no Catholic worth his weight in beans claims that the Pope does anything Divine. But what he does do, or rather, what his appointed helpers do, is pick a successor to make sure that the Church that is Jesus Christ does not fall into chaos. And those appointed to manage the Church in Jesus’ absence, are the Popes.
S
SIA
Guest
that’s where our agreement breaks I’m afraid.
R
RobHom
Guest
SIA… I have a very serious question for you… If what you say is true, then why does not even the King James Version of the Bible agree with your statement? Why does it not conform to what you say the Greek translation would be? I’m being very serious in asking this.
Here is the King James Version as it relates to Mathew 16:13-19
**13When Jesus came into the coasts of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am?
14And they said, Some say that thou art John the Baptist: some, Elias; and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets.
15He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?
16And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
17And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.
18And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
19And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. **
From here: biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Mathew%2016&version=9
The problem is this: The Bible does not agree with what you are saying Christ said or did. So many people come up with all of the different “translations” and takes on the translations… But that does not explain why all the different versions of the Bible say the same thing…and the verbiage does not agree with the “Greek” translation or a take on the translation. Seems like if the Greek translation was accurate, the translation to English would correlate or match up.
If not here, please start another thread. I’m interested in your take on this.
F
fbl9
Guest
no need to start a new thread carry on here by all means…
R
RobHom
Guest
I thought maybe we needed to…before a moderator suggested it.
S
SIA
Guest
Problem is, nothing of what i said disagrees with Scripture, King James Version or otherwise. Jesus founded the Church upon himself clearly. (Big rock). Such as I own a business and I hired a manager to manage it for me. I founded the business upon myself, not my manager. If it goes bankrupt, I pay the lawyers, not the manager. I could blame the manager for steering it wrong but ultimately, it is my problem.SIA… I have a very serious question for you… If what you say is true, then why does not even the King James Version of the Bible agree with your statement? Why does it not conform to what you say the Greek translation would be? I’m being very serious in asking this.
Here is the King James Version as it relates to Mathew 16:13-19
**13When Jesus came into the coasts of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am?
14And they said, Some say that thou art John the Baptist: some, Elias; and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets.
15He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?
16And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
17And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.
18And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
19And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. **
From here: biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Mathew%2016&version=9
The problem is this: The Bible does not agree with what you are saying Christ said or did. So many people come up with all of the different “translations” and takes on the translations… But that does not explain why all the different versions of the Bible say the same thing…and the verbiage does not agree with the “Greek” translation or a take on the translation. Seems like if the Greek translation was accurate, the translation to English would correlate or match up.
If not here, please start another thread. I’m interested in your take on this.
S
SIA
Guest
sure does.
S
SIA
Guest
I do believe that he did and the next and the next. Problem is, many dogmas and doctrines have come into existence since this that were not originated from the Apostels and Peter. Therefore do I believe that Pope Benedit XVI is the successor of Peter? My answer is no.
S
SenorSalsa
Guest
Well, at least we agree on the concept of Apostolic Succession
But to continue your business theme, If God is Owner, Popes are(or used to be) Managers, I suppose we would be employees.
Now lets say the manager is an awful manager, he leads us near bankruptcy, he yells at costumers, he cheats on the books. Can the employees fire him? Can the Owner fire him without letting the employees know? Have you heard of such a firing?
S
SIA
Guest
Sure I have. It happened right here where I live at a business which is owned by its employees. They fired the general manager for mismanagement of company funds.
S
SIA
Guest
I believe that Jesus is the Rock on which the Church was founded. I believe that Peter was the rock that was put in the leadership role of the Church. Over the years, Peter’s successors have changed the criteria of what this leadership role is many many times. Some changes were I believe legitimate and some were not. Doctrines changed, dogmas were added and again, this leadership role changed its meanings and juristictions. The point I am trying to make is that The Church is the bride of Christ. It must be founded upon his perfection and his divinity. Jesus himeslf tells us that it is in the Scriptures. We as sinful humans who screw things up severely. If it weren’t for God, I could do nothing. Why would anyone want to follow a man made man purposed church?
J
jmcrae
Guest
If St. Matthew had intended to mean “little rock” he would have named Simon bar Jonah to be Lithos; not Peter.
Jesus would have said, "Thou art Lithos, and upon this petra I will build my Church.
But that’s not what happened - instead, St. Matthew masculinized the word “Petra”, and got “Petros” (Peter) out of it.
Remember, at the time that this was being written in Greek, the word “Petros” did not exist in the Greek language.
And just in case that’s not clear, the Holy Spirit inspired St. Luke to use the Aramaic instead of the Greek, and in Aramaic, St. Peter is called “Cephas” (sometimes spelled “Kephas” or “Kepha”) which means “a big rock”.
J
jmcrae
Guest
This is exactly why I left Protestantism.
The Catholic Church is the only one on earth that even has the remotest chance of being the Church. If it is not the one, then the Church does not exist at all.
Getting back to your business example: if a business goes on for several generations, there is a succession of the management, and each manager will have a different management style. Some of the managers might even be really bad at their job. But as long as the company remains in business, the manager is always the manager - even if he is bad at his job. When he gives an order, the employees might ask to have it overturned, but if it doesn’t get overturned, they still have to follow it in order to remain working at the company.
If they get fired from the company, or if they quit, they won’t participate in the rewards that the company offers. But if they stay, even through the times of bad management, they will be there to receive the rewards, when they come along.
If the reward is eternal life, it seems like a small price to pay, to put up with a few inconvenient rules that don’t seem to make a whole lot of sense - especially if nobody else can legitimately offer the same rewards.
- Status