Taking questions from Sabbatarians...

[PRmerger]

Hi, PRmerger,

Excellent post

Ah, but you have some that really did worry me … The little picture you put at the bottom of your post … I am afraid my wife may see it…

God bless

Every wife ought to have that picture posted on her refrigerator!

 

[PRmerger]

I do see from scriptures that the Apostles and other disciples of Christ observe/celebrate the special day of the Lord the ‘‘Lord’s’’ Supper on the ‘‘Lords day’’. And this was done on the first day of the week every week.
Both Jews and Gentiles of Christ must have Observed/celebrated this first day Sunday to declare Jesus as Lord. 1 Cor 11:20…1 Cor 16:2…Acts 20:7…John was in the Spirit on the Lord’s day Rev 1:10.

Exactly.

I would have thought as-long as a Jew of Christ observes/celebrates the Lord’s day Sunday He should also be allowed to observe/celebrate Saturday Sabbath and his Jewish holy days along with the practise to abstain from certain type foods.

Which of the Jewish practices do you believe they ought to keep? Do you believe that they still ought not be mixing 2 different types of crops in one field, as forbidden in the OT? What about the injunction to keep a gate on their roof? Must they observe this, too? And is it forbidden, still, to wear 2 different types of fabrics?

Why do you choose only observing the Sabbath and abstaining from certain types of food, rather than the other 200-ish laws inscribed in the OT?

 

[tqualey]

Hi, Crescentinus,

It’s OK. Really.

He set the agenda, the criteria and made his own judgments - when he left the Catholic Church. And he did this because people - you know, sinners like you and me - offended him. The ability to see through human frailty and the the Truth of Christ’s message is not to be taken for granted.

So, instead of going to an appropriate source that can give him indivudualized attention - he comes to CAF, challenge the posters, has his arguments disproven, appears to sulk and now claimis he is moving on because, ‘…Catholics are closed minded…’

H-m-m-m-m … as I recall, the NT has multiple references where Christ and others were not going to bend the Law to accommodate those who had an alternate life style. For example:

John the Baptist - with no apparent provocation - uses some rather harsh language to the Pharisees and their subordinates who came to listen to him preach (Matt 3)

Christ didn’t even give the money changers in the Temple time to clear their tables (Matt 21 & Mark 11)

And while we see Christ extending Himself to sinners, tax collectors and prostitutes - they had to change their ways - and not keep to their alternate life style (2Peter 2 provides an especially graphic example)

Then there was the rather dim view held by St. Paul had of the envious, drunkards, thieves, and any other group that refuses to turn from sin and begin to follow Christ. (1Cor 6)

Those looking for tolerance as they maintain their ‘alternate life style’ continuing to dive deeper into sin should look for reading matter other then the Bible. There are many more section I can provide that can easily be viewed as: ‘judgmental, narrow-minded, intolerant…’ .oh, and don’t forget inflexible, too

No one accepts Christ on their terms. We accept Christ on His terms or we are just kidding ourselves. Now, I don’t want to get all mushy on you, Crescentinus - but our buddy voluntarily enter this dialogue and it sounds like he is voluntarily leaving it. I sincerely recommend that we all pray for him - and, I honestly think this is as far as we can take it.

God bless

Wait, what?
Can I not guess things? Is that evil?
Now, it is true that not all SDA members are vitriolic about Catholicism. But, in their debates against Catholics, most tend to show their heavy vitriol. You mad?

 

[tqualey]

Hi, Shaky,

While PRMerger gave some excellent examples in responding to this post - let me ask a more direct question: What does Christ fulfillment of the Old Covenant really mean to us today? St. Paul was quite happy to be taken out from under The Law - and here he was not addressing that it is now OK to lie, steal, kill, etc - but all the little items that the Pharisees and Sadduces added (two crops in 1 field, dietary restrictions, washings, etc.)

If, as you claim, we are still bound to the Sabbath - then please tell us - what else are we bound to under The Law?

I think if you want a real focus - the Ten Commandments were like an introduction. Those who claim to be following Christ should not be looking at the Ten Commandments to gather if they are good or not - but look to The Beatitudes (Matt 5) for where the real benchmarks are.

God bless

I do see from scriptures that the Apostles and other disciples of Christ observe/celebrate the special day of the Lord the ‘‘Lord’s’’ Supper on the ‘‘Lords day’’. And this was done on the first day of the week every week.
Both Jews and Gentiles of Christ must have Observed/celebrated this first day Sunday to declare Jesus as Lord. 1 Cor 11:20…1 Cor 16:2…Acts 20:7…John was in the Spirit on the Lord’s day Rev 1:10.

I would have thought as-long as a Jew of Christ observes/celebrates the Lord’s day Sunday He should also be allowed to observe/celebrate Saturday Sabbath and his Jewish holy days along with the practise to abstain from certain type foods.

 

[tqualey]

Hi, Metamorphoo,

I have been following this exchange with a certain amount of awe … but, I think you are losing your grip on this one. So, let’s back up and see what we have…

First, you are really just making a vague statement that you think Catholic Church leaders made mistakes in doctrine - and, we must understand that infallibility addresses only doctrine - not how Church leaders live. It seems that you are saying that the leaders did not address the Jews in a manner you think appropriate. Is this accurate? If so, then please spell out the particulars of this matter you have taken exception to.

Secondly, I really did not pick up a consistent response to why you think the Gospel of Mark is inspired (and it is - because under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, the Catholic Church declared certain books to be inspired - and you will find them in the Bible. Even the abridged version you have does not contain any new books - just certain inspired books were taken out) but Catholics not worshiping on the Sabbath is inappropriate.

Please remember, we have evidence of Jewish persecution of Catholics in the New Testament (Paul really did have a difficult time with their persecution) and then there was the Roman persecution of Jews. Later, there was the Roman persecution of Catholics that did not end until about 313AD. The Jews were quite clear as to what they believed and what they did not believe… except the Judiazers who seemed to want to believe whatever they chose to believe (maybe an early version of the non-denom…? ) Anyway… if one does not believe Christ is God, then calling one’s self a Christian is essentially meaningless.

So, please if you believe the Gospel of Mark is inspired but claim that other doctrinal determinations are in error - what criteria are you using?

God bless

Actually, I’ve done quite a bit of study on the different biblical covenants, as well as studied about ancient suzerain treaties (which were covenants) and covenantal practices from around the globe.

Christians often overlook the fact that the New Covenant was promised to the Jewish people explicitly, and Jeremiah’s prophecy also states what it would take for God to cast off ALL of Israel for their sins (the bottom line is that He won’t do it–see Jer. 31, especially verses 31-32 and 35-37). Jeremiah’s prophecy was grossly distorted by many Gentile Church leaders over the history of Christendom, who said that God had permanently cast off the Jewish people because (most of them) had rejected Christ.

As for the Mosaic Covenant, it is impossible for even the most devout Jewish person to obey a good chunk of that covenant because so much of it is centered around the Temple … which hasn’t stood for nearly 2000 years. Hebrews 8:13 calls the Mosaic Covenant obsolete.

The Mosaic Covenant was replaced by the New Covenant, which was a better covenant. One of the main differences: God’s law would be written on men’s hearts instead of stone tablets.

 

[shaky]

Exactly.

Which of the Jewish practices do you believe they ought to keep? Do you believe that they still ought not be mixing 2 different types of crops in one field, as forbidden in the OT? What about the injunction to keep a gate on their roof? Must they observe this, too? And is it forbidden, still, to wear 2 different types of fabrics?

Why do you choose only observing the Sabbath and abstaining from certain types of food, rather than the other 200-ish laws inscribed in the OT?

Maybe a Jew coming to Christ not only wants to observe keeping the Sabbath and abstaining from certain foods. But also keep all the other 200-ish laws inscribed in the OT.

As regards to a Jew it is forbidden to wear cloths of wool and linen woven together !
It is also forbidden for a man to wear womens cloths and a woman to wear mans cloths !

Is it OK for a Catholic Christian [who is not Gay/homosexual/lesbian] man to wear womens cloths or a woman to wear mans cloths ?

 

[shaky]

Hi, Shaky,

While PRMerger gave some excellent examples in responding to this post - let me ask a more direct question: What does Christ fulfillment of the Old Covenant really mean to us today? St. Paul was quite happy to be taken out from under The Law - and here he was not addressing that it is now OK to lie, steal, kill, etc - but all the little items that the Pharisees and Sadduces added (two crops in 1 field, dietary restrictions, washings, etc.)

If, as you claim, we are still bound to the Sabbath - then please tell us - what else are we bound to under The Law?

I think if you want a real focus - the Ten Commandments were like an introduction. Those who claim to be following Christ should not be looking at the Ten Commandments to gather if they are good or not - but look to The Beatitudes (Matt 5) for where the real benchmarks are.

God bless

I am not claiming we are bound by the Sabbath. If you look back at my Post 111 you will see that the rest you have said i am in agreement with you. That we are not under ANY OT law of Moses written in stone by God or inspired by God then written in Ink.
‘‘We are under the Law/teaching/commands of Christ’’ The Beatitudes is where the real benchmarks are. As regards to lie steal kill etc. Even the very ‘‘Thought’’ to Murder steal lie etc is Sin. We are under the Law of Grace and the Law of the Spirit which should write laws of Christ/God on the tables of our heart.

I was Just saying a Jew coming to Christ should be still allowed to observe his sabbath and whatever other OT laws and practises he knows about along with observing Sunday the Lords day the special day of the Lords supper.

 

[PRmerger]

Maybe a Jew coming to Christ not only wants to observe keeping the Sabbath and abstaining from certain foods. But also keep all the other 200-ish laws inscribed in the OT.

And as a Catholic he would certainly not be prohibited from observing all of those, if he wanted to.

What about in your church?

As regards to a Jew it is forbidden to wear cloths of wool and linen woven together !
It is also forbidden for a man to wear womens cloths and a woman to wear mans cloths !

Firstly, could you address my question? Why is it that you pick and choose some Jewish laws/practices a Christian may follow, but not others?

Is it OK for a Catholic Christian [who is not Gay/homosexual/lesbian] man to wear womens cloths or a woman to wear mans cloths ?

If I were wearing my husband’s sweatshirt today, there certainly would be no prohibition from a Catholic perspective with my doing so.

Does your pastor prohibit this? What Scripture verse does he use to support that a woman can’t wear her husband’s sweatshirt?

 

[Yahudi]

The 7th day is God’s Sabbath – it is NOT the ‘Jewish’ Sabbath; the Sabbath is part of creation; it cannot be changed. Rome enforced worship on the ‘day of the Sun’ because that was the standard in Rome. Anyone who kept God’s Sabbaths was put to death. God says He is pleased with anyone, even a foreigner, “who does not profane His Sabbaths.”

 

[PRmerger]

The 7th day is God’s Sabbath – it is NOT the ‘Jewish’ Sabbath; the Sabbath is part of creation; it cannot be changed.

Right. And no one has changed the Sabbath.

Sunday is the Lord’s Day. Not the Sabbath.

 

[tqualey]

Hi, Yahudi,

In your enthusiasm for addressing Rome’s ‘enforcement’ authority maybe you would like to consider the day that the Resurrection took place and the day of the First Pentecost.

You may wish to consider Matthew 16 where Christ gave Peter the Keys to the Kingdom and the authority to bind and lose - and worshiping on Sunday is a good example of a change that took place.

You may also recall that Catholics were persecuted by the Roman Empire until the beginning of the 4th Century - persecution for those who worshiped on the Sabbath was incidental to the Roman Empire - their focus was the defication of the Emperor and those who did not worship the Emperor were put to death - no matter what day they worshiped.

My understanding of ‘The Way’ is that they became known as Catholics early into the 2nd Century. Is this your understanding, too?

God bless

The 7th day is God’s Sabbath – it is NOT the ‘Jewish’ Sabbath; the Sabbath is part of creation; it cannot be changed. Rome enforced worship on the ‘day of the Sun’ because that was the standard in Rome. Anyone who kept God’s Sabbaths was put to death. God says He is pleased with anyone, even a foreigner, “who does not profane His Sabbaths.”

 

[PRmerger]

Anyone who kept God’s Sabbaths was put to death.

Huh? I’ve never heard this.

Put to death by whom? The Romans? Why would they do that?

 

[tqualey]

Hi, Shaky,

I guess the problem I have is that if Jews believe in Jesus and want to worship on the Sabbath - just what is it that they believe Jesus did? Seriously, He did found a Church on Peter - not a Temple or a Synagogue. This site really does not address my questions jewsforjesus.org/ so, maybe you have an answer?

God bless

I am not claiming we are bound by the Sabbath. If you look back at my Post 111 you will see that the rest you have said i am in agreement with you. That we are not under ANY OT law of Moses written in stone by God or inspired by God then written in Ink.
‘‘We are under the Law/teaching/commands of Christ’’ The Beatitudes is where the real benchmarks are. As regards to lie steal kill etc. Even the very ‘‘Thought’’ to Murder steal lie etc is Sin. We are under the Law of Grace and the Law of the Spirit which should write laws of Christ/God on the tables of our heart.

I was Just saying a Jew coming to Christ should be still allowed to observe his sabbath and whatever other OT laws and practises he knows about along with observing Sunday the Lords day the special day of the Lords supper.

 

[Crescentinus]

The 7th day is God’s Sabbath – it is NOT the ‘Jewish’ Sabbath; the Sabbath is part of creation; it cannot be changed. Rome enforced worship on the ‘day of the Sun’ because that was the standard in Rome. Anyone who kept God’s Sabbaths was put to death. God says He is pleased with anyone, even a foreigner, “who does not profane His Sabbaths.”

Question. Are you a Seventh-Day Adventist?

 

[Yahudi]

No, I am not a 7th day Adventist; I just stick to God’s words. Yahowsha could not have given ‘Peter’ nor anyone else any authority to change ‘one jot nor tittle’ of the Torah. Remember – "until heaven and earth pass away, not one jot nor tittle of the Torah shall be changed, weakened, nor dissolved . . . anyone who teaches such shall be ‘least’ (as in ‘not there’) BTW the name ‘Paul’ means ‘least man’. ‘First day of the week’ usually referred to the first day of the counting of the omer – the count of 7 weeks to Shabua. BTW, the ‘resurrection’ does you no good at all if you neglect the observance of Passover on the 14th day of the 1st month, and Matsah on the 15th day of the first month. Passover resolves the consequence of sin – death – it saves your soul from being exterminated; Matsah cleanses your soul of leaven – the leaven of politics and religion; only then can you capitalize on FirstFruits. Imagine, your soul becoming immortal, but then not being unleavened . . .

 

[PRmerger]

No, I am not a 7th day Adventist; I just stick to God’s words. Yahowsha could not have given ‘Peter’ nor anyone else any authority to change ‘one jot nor tittle’ of the Torah.

Then you are of the belief that the NT is not God’s Word?

 

[PRmerger]

BTW, the ‘resurrection’ does you no good at all if you neglect the observance of Passover on the 14th day of the 1st month, and Matsah on the 15th day of the first month. Passover resolves the consequence of sin – death – it saves your soul from being exterminated; Matsah cleanses your soul of leaven – the leaven of politics and religion; only then can you capitalize on FirstFruits. Imagine, your soul becoming immortal, but then not being unleavened . . .

Perhaps you have never attended a Catholic Mass, Yahudi? Otherwise you would not say this.

The Divine Liturgy* is* the Passover Liturgy, as fulfilled in Christ.

“Blessed are you, O Lord our God, who brings forth bread from the earth." from the Jewish Passover Liturgy.

“Blessed are you, O Lord our God, King of the Universe, who creates the fruit of the vine.” from the Catholic Divine Liturgy.

 

[PRmerger]

No, I am not a 7th day Adventist; I just stick to God’s words. Yahowsha could not have given ‘Peter’ nor anyone else any authority to change ‘one jot nor tittle’ of the Torah.

But do you think God gave Jesus authority to “change” the Torah?

In the Gospel of Matthew Jesus gives a series of 6 sayings which “change” the old laws.

Do you not believe that these sayings were righteous?

 

[shaky]

Hi, Shaky,

I guess the problem I have is that if Jews believe in Jesus and want to worship on the Sabbath - just what is it that they believe Jesus did? Seriously, He did found a Church on Peter - not a Temple or a Synagogue. This site really does not address my questions jewsforjesus.org/ so, maybe you have an answer?

God bless

I have searched this site and found the site does not address my questions also. I have sent them a Email asking them all my questions regarding this Issue. I will get back to you when i get a response on their Positional View.

I was Looking at Col 2:16 and Rom 14:1-14 to Show that a Jew and Gentile who has Come to Christ. Should not Judge each other regarding this Issue about observing which certain days or Not. and abstain from certain food drink or Not abstain. or keeping all the Jewish 200ish OT covenant laws or Not.

 

[shaky]

And as a Catholic he would certainly not be prohibited from observing all of those, if he wanted to.

What about in your church?

Firstly, could you address my question? Why is it that you pick and choose some Jewish laws/practices a Christian may follow, but not others?

If I were wearing my husband’s sweatshirt today, there certainly would be no prohibition from a Catholic perspective with my doing so.

Does your pastor prohibit this? What Scripture verse does he use to support that a woman can’t wear her husband’s sweatshirt?

Oh i thought a Jew who has become a Catholic would be Prohibited by the Catholic Church.
I don’t belong to any Church at Present. I am one of Many who believe in Christ but don’t go to any church at present although i do my best to walk in whatever righteousness Jesus shows me in the Gospels. I tried a few Protestant types many years ago but ran into problems with what they taught. Recently in the last few years since having a computer i decided to study the history of Christianity. I got fed up of looking at the different Protestant Churches with their different doctrines. There is too many thousands. I decided to look into the history of the Catholic Churches RC-EO-OO. After studying Christology i put the Oriental Orthodox Church to One Side and my main Focus is on between the Eastern Orthodox and the Roman Catholic Church at present.

Sorry i forget to answer this! At present i do not pick and Choose some Jewish law/practises to follow but not others. I do not follow any OT Law/Practises unless it is shown in the NT in a True Context to do so.

The Issue about wearing any of your husbands cloths is addressed in
Deut 22:5
A woman should not wear mans clothing;Nor shall a man put on womens clothing; For whoever does these things is a abomination to the Lord…
Whether this OT law/practise Applies also to the NT Covenant i don’t Know:shrug:

I read in Leviticus 19:27…21:5 that a Man shall not cut or shave off his beard says the Lord

Also i read in Apostolic constitutions compiled in 390 AD. Men may not destroy the hair of their beards and unnaturally change the form of man. ‘‘For the Law says’’ you will not deface your beards. for God your creator has made this decent for women, but has determined it is unsuitable for men.

Your POPE does not have a beard so shaves his beard. Is he Wrong for doing this ?