Taking questions from Sabbatarians...

[tqualey]

Hi, Yahudi,

It would be much appreciated if you gave some reference for the statements you are making. The idea that “Yahowsha IS the TORAH” makes no sense - at least to me.

Have you tested Jesus’ words in Matthew 16 where He founded His Church on Peter?

Jesus and His Apostles were Jews. They were determined to be no longer Jews by the religious leaders in Jerusalem - and this was mainly because the Apostles were proclaiming Christ was the Promised Messiah and the Jewish leaders were denying this.

Since you claim to be a member of The Way - you will recall that Saul was a zelot Pharisee who was actively persecuting those who were following Jesus - a short time later the work of persecuting the followers of Christ move on to the Roman Empire. In Acts 11:26 we find the term Christians and in 107AD St. Ignatius of Antioch used the term Catholic - and that is the term that stuck. I am not sure what became of The Way - so, maybe you can give me some information on this.

Thanks

God bless

Just saying: Yahowsha IS the TORAH; “not one jot or tittle shall pass away, be loosed, nor changed, until heaven and earth pass away”, not until one “comes to Jesus”. Have you ever really tested Paul’s words? They are contrary to the words of Yahowah and of the Messiah. (truthseekers.co.za is a real eye opener). The Torah is Life, Light, Way, and Truth, just as Yahowsha taught. Funny, He said we would be taught Torah in the Millennium, and we will be keeping the weekly Sabbath as well as the Seven Called-Out Assemblies. Yahowsha never said “church”; He said ‘Miqra’ - ‘Called-out Assembly’ , the same 'Called-out Assembly which was delineated back in Leviticus. BTW, “shamar” means to “listen/hear/closely observe” it does not mean “obey”; Torah means teaching/guidance/instruction/advice; it does not mean ‘law’. Why would the Torah ‘pass away’ and then ‘return’? Deut 13 warns us against following a ‘prophet’ whose words do not line up with God’s Torah; God also says that He will put ‘false prophets’ in our path to test us. Yahowsha said He would allow the enemy to sow ‘tares/false words’ in His field to grow up right along side His true words. God says “Listen to Me, do not listen to men.”

 

[shaky]

Just saying: Yahowsha IS the TORAH; “not one jot or tittle shall pass away, be loosed, nor changed, until heaven and earth pass away”, not until one “comes to Jesus”. Have you ever really tested Paul’s words? They are contrary to the words of Yahowah and of the Messiah. (truthseekers.co.za is a real eye opener). The Torah is Life, Light, Way, and Truth, just as Yahowsha taught. Funny, He said we would be taught Torah in the Millennium, and we will be keeping the weekly Sabbath as well as the Seven Called-Out Assemblies. Yahowsha never said “church”; He said ‘Miqra’ - ‘Called-out Assembly’ , the same 'Called-out Assembly which was delineated back in Leviticus. BTW, “shamar” means to “listen/hear/closely observe” it does not mean “obey”; Torah means teaching/guidance/instruction/advice; it does not mean ‘law’. Why would the Torah ‘pass away’ and then ‘return’? Deut 13 warns us against following a ‘prophet’ whose words do not line up with God’s Torah; God also says that He will put ‘false prophets’ in our path to test us. Yahowsha said He would allow the enemy to sow ‘tares/false words’ in His field to grow up right along side His true words. God says “Listen to Me, do not listen to men.”

Hi Yahudi

I have looked at (truthseekers.co.za.) These People are saying that the Apostle Paul is a False Apostle because he is only a man that is teaching against the teachings of Christ and the Torah.
Well if that is true and is the Case One Can be Proper decieved by the Apostle Paul.

 

[shaky]

Hi, Shaky,

Asking God for His Guidance in each of our lives is truly a wonderful daily prayer. And, you are correct about the Devil doing his best to turn us away from God by pretending to lead us to Him only to deceive us.

But, you know, like an individual walking into a freshly painted room - and touching everything - the Devil simply can not help but leave his fingerprints all over what he handles. If you notice Pride creeping into thoughts as it displaces the Humility Christ demonstrated for His Apostles - then whatever it is - there is a problem because somehow the Devil has gotten to us through the object. Praying to Our Blessed Mother is a powerful way to send the Evil One fleeing.

There is a difference in the way God provided public revelation before the end of the Apostolic Age and how He provides private revelation to some in this the Post Apostolic Age. catholic.com/tracts/can-dogma-develop The Church holds the Deposit of Faith - and through her teachings, under the Guidance of the Holy Spirit - we will know God’s Will for us. The very bases of the Moral Law is to ‘Do good and avoid evil’ - while there is more we must do - we are heading in the wrong direction if we do not follow this directive.

Again, Praise God on your recovery from cancer.

God bless

Hi tqualey

I have looked at this link you have Provided. As regards to there is a difference in the way God provided public revelation before the end of the Apostolic Age and how he Provides private revelation to Some in the post Apostolic Age.
The context of the article in this Link seems to be saying that revelation that came through a prophetic way through others only happened at the time of the Apostles were alive. Not only the Apostles but others recieved direct revelation from God. But since this period of the Apostles and when they died out. That Christians Now do not anymore receive direct revelation from God.

What about what we read in Acts and Joel. That in the last days God will pour out his Spirit and young and old men will have dreams and visions and sons and daughters will prophesy as to have Prophetic Revelation.

I thought we ‘‘Today in the Present’’ are in the Last days. and we each individual still receives direct revelation from God himself. Jesus said my own know me and they hear my Voice. Is this Not So ?

This article also seems to be saying that through our study and reason we come to understand the doctrine already delivered by the Apostles whether oral or written as the Tradition and we learn this through the teachings of the Church under the guidance of the Holy Spirit.

In a way i am sort of on course doing it this way. But it is a bit of a hard slog doing all this study with reason. It is sort of like my Conscious mind is asking mySELF questions and my subconscious mind reveals to mySELF the answers to solve problems and doubts as i study with reason the scriptures and Church teachings.

I Thought in the Gospels Jesus Said to follow him you are to Take up your Cross and deny yourSELF. With study and reason through using mySELF. How is this to deny yourSELF ? I Thought that we had to deny our very ‘‘SELF’’ and our own mind that gains understanding.
I thought Instead we are to ask God for wisdom and through revelation he will give us understanding.

 

[shaky]

Hi, Shaky…If I may contribute a little bit…if you have not, I recommend reading on the Four Marks of the Church by Scott Hahn…star.ucl.ac.uk/~vgg/rc/aplgtc/hahn/m3/Mod3.html

And the splendor of the Church…star.ucl.ac.uk/~vgg/rc/aplgtc/hahn/m1/splndr.html.

Hi Pablope

Thanks Again for these links. For the last couple of years i have studied allot online with Eastern Orthodox Christians and their doctrine and all the in and out of their objections to some of the doctrines of the Roman Catholic Church. I am not yet fully convinced.
But i think now it is now about time to study allot the Roman Catholic Church with its stance in its Doctrine and defence regarding the Eastern Orthodox Objections.

 

[shaky]

Just saying: Yahowsha IS the TORAH; “not one jot or tittle shall pass away, be loosed, nor changed, until heaven and earth pass away”, not until one “comes to Jesus”. Have you ever really tested Paul’s words? They are contrary to the words of Yahowah and of the Messiah. (truthseekers.co.za is a real eye opener). The Torah is Life, Light, Way, and Truth, just as Yahowsha taught. Funny, He said we would be taught Torah in the Millennium, and we will be keeping the weekly Sabbath as well as the Seven Called-Out Assemblies. Yahowsha never said “church”; He said ‘Miqra’ - ‘Called-out Assembly’ , the same 'Called-out Assembly which was delineated back in Leviticus. BTW, “shamar” means to “listen/hear/closely observe” it does not mean “obey”; Torah means teaching/guidance/instruction/advice; it does not mean ‘law’. Why would the Torah ‘pass away’ and then ‘return’? Deut 13 warns us against following a ‘prophet’ whose words do not line up with God’s Torah; God also says that He will put ‘false prophets’ in our path to test us. Yahowsha said He would allow the enemy to sow ‘tares/false words’ in His field to grow up right along side His true words. God says “Listen to Me, do not listen to men.”

Hi Yahudi

With {truthseekers.co.za} i have read up to chapter 3. Now the writer is saying that the Vision that Peter had recorded in Acts 10 and Acts 11 does not mean that all unclean food is made clean by God for us to Eat. He is saying this vision means that God is going to make Gentiles clean by getting the Gentiles to eat ONLY Clean food According to the ceremonial Law…He has left out Acts 11:3 that shows that Peter did eat with the Gentiles. Others who had seen this objected to Peter that he was wrong to eat with the gentiles. So if they objected this means that Peter did eat the same unclean food as what the gentiles did eat.

Also with 2 Cor 11 This writer is trying to make this chapter say that Paul is making out himself to be the Only True Apostle and putting himself above the other Original 12 Apostles of Christ and accusing them of being false Apostles being transformed into Angels of light by the devil.

Do you not think this writer is seriously misinterpreting the scriptures. ?

 

[pablope]

Hi Pablope

Thanks Again for these links. For the last couple of years i have studied allot online with Eastern Orthodox Christians and their doctrine and all the in and out of their objections to some of the doctrines of the Roman Catholic Church. I am not yet fully convinced.
But i think now it is now about time to study allot the Roman Catholic Church with its stance in its Doctrine and defence regarding the Eastern Orthodox Objections.

You are welcome Shaky.

There are some who have studied both…protestants who converted…some chose the Rome, some chose Constantinople.

Here is one such link…and relates his story and his investigation…hopefully…this will get you on the right track…chnetwork.org/2011/05/father-raymond-ryland-on-whose-authority/

ewtn.com/library/ANSWERS/1ORTHO.htm

EVANGELICALS WHO JOURNEY EAST
Rev. Ray Ryland

 

[PRmerger]

Just saying: Yahowsha IS the TORAH; “not one jot or tittle shall pass away, be loosed, nor changed, until heaven and earth pass away”, not until one “comes to Jesus”.

Just curious, Yahudi, if your church allows divorce? What does the Torah say about divorce?

 

[tqualey]

Hi, Shaky,

Seriously, just look around you. God made several dramatic revelations in the OT - and the NT has a large number, too - but, after 100AD … there are not many public revelations. There have always been private revelations in the OT when God would call upon a person - in private - and tell this person that God was appointing them to announce God’s message. Today, there are private revelations - some have been published and some we will not know about until we are with God. Now, just think about the revelations that we know about.

There is nothng NEW that God can add that will change the direction of all the other revelations He has given us. God is not going to say, “It’s OK not to worship me and you can treat your neighbor any way you want!” That is no going to happen.

We can ask for a private revelation all we want - but, my thinking is that God is going to want us to acknowledge, believe and then act upon the revelations He has already given to us. All of us really do have issues that we would like God to take a direct hand in and resolve for us. The truth is, God has a very Personal Hand that is trying to guide us to His Will. We all have a Free Will that can and does enable us to reject God’s Love through sin - and God clearly tells us He wants us to choose life and not death in all matters pertaining to our humanity and our immortal soul.

Really, if you feel better asking for a private revelation - be my guest. But, and strictly as a rhetorical question, what can you really ask for that God has not granted for the safety of your soul? We are created in His Image, He sent His Son to redeem us from sin, and for reasons known only to Him - He loves us deeply and passionately. What else is there?
And, if you think of something - and you don’t get that private revelation - what happens next?

Concerning self-denial, here is a link you may find helpful: chastitysf.com/q_illusions.htm

God bless

Hi tqualey

I have looked at this link you have Provided. As regards to there is a difference in the way God provided public revelation before the end of the Apostolic Age and how he Provides private revelation to Some in the post Apostolic Age.
The context of the article in this Link seems to be saying that revelation that came through a prophetic way through others only happened at the time of the Apostles were alive. Not only the Apostles but others recieved direct revelation from God. But since this period of the Apostles and when they died out. That Christians Now do not anymore receive direct revelation from God.

What about what we read in Acts and Joel. That in the last days God will pour out his Spirit and young and old men will have dreams and visions and sons and daughters will prophesy as to have Prophetic Revelation.

I thought we ‘‘Today in the Present’’ are in the Last days. and we each individual still receives direct revelation from God himself. Jesus said my own know me and they hear my Voice. Is this Not So ?

This article also seems to be saying that through our study and reason we come to understand the doctrine already delivered by the Apostles whether oral or written as the Tradition and we learn this through the teachings of the Church under the guidance of the Holy Spirit.

In a way i am sort of on course doing it this way. But it is a bit of a hard slog doing all this study with reason. It is sort of like my Conscious mind is asking mySELF questions and my subconscious mind reveals to mySELF the answers to solve problems and doubts as i study with reason the scriptures and Church teachings.

I Thought in the Gospels Jesus Said to follow him you are to Take up your Cross and deny yourSELF. With study and reason through using mySELF. How is this to deny yourSELF ? I Thought that we had to deny our very ‘‘SELF’’ and our own mind that gains understanding.
I thought Instead we are to ask God for wisdom and through revelation he will give us understanding.

 

[funny4god]

I respectfully disagree with your assertion.First when we look back in history of the Sabbath it goes back 6000 years.The Seventh Day is the Sabbath of the Lord. When he was done Creating the World He Rested and Sanctified. We read in Genesis 2:2 "And on the Seventh day God ended his work which he had made ;and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made “.(key word) God finish all his work on the six day and the Sabbath means Rested on the Seventh day, God made the Seventh Day to REST and keep in mind at the beginning there was only two humans on earth Adam and Eve now the question is: Were Adam and Eve Jews?I think you know the answer. Then we read on Gen 2:3 And God Bless the Seventh day and sanctified it:because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and Made.” Now to me is crystal clear that God Bless it and Sanctified it. Which means he God made that day for humankind to follow. This Divine appointment grows out the nature and fitness of things,and must have been made directly to Adam,for himself and wife were the only two beings who had the days of the week to use.As it was addressed to Adam while yet in his uprightness it must have given to him as the head of human family.This is THE LORD’S DAY.God made this day so we can rejoyce and come to him to worship and give him thanks.There is another fundamental point I would like to make is that in Exodus 20:10 says “But the seventh day is the Sabbath of the LORD your God:in it you shall not do any work,nor your son nor your daughter your manservant, nor your maidservant,nor your cattle,nor your stranger that is within your gates”. Now here is abosolutly clear with out a doubt which day is the Lord’s day.If the Lord or Jesus for that matter would like for us all humans not just the Jews to follow their traditions both had plenty of time to change days if they wanted to, dont you think?. Now you may say well we cellebrate Jesus Resuration the first day of the week that’s fine by us at least we are keeping a Holy day to remember God.Also we read when God wrote His ten Commandments with his own finger on tow tablets of stone it’s funny to think about this but the fourth commandment starts by saying as we would forget.REMEMBER the Sabbath day,to keep it Holy…It can’t get more plain than this.The Patriarchs could not posibly have been ignorant of the facts and the obligation which the fouth commandment shows to have originated in the begginig,for Adam was present with them for a period equal to more than half the Chirstian dispensation.There is alot more I would like to write and I will later on. May God bless everyone here and all around the world espcially our troops over seas.

 

[PRmerger]

I respectfully disagree with your assertion.First when we look back in history of the Sabbath it goes back 6000 years.The Seventh Day is the Sabbath of the Lord. When he was done Creating the World He Rested and Sanctified. We read in Genesis 2:2 "And on the Seventh day God ended his work which he had made ;and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made “.(key word) God finish all his work on the six day and the Sabbath means Rested on the Seventh day, God made the Seventh Day to REST and keep in mind at the beginning there was only two humans on earth Adam and Eve now the question is: Were Adam and Eve Jews?I think you know the answer. Then we read on Gen 2:3 And God Bless the Seventh day and sanctified it:because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and Made.” Now to me is crystal clear that God Bless it and Sanctified it. Which means he God made that day for humankind to follow. This Divine appointment grows out the nature and fitness of things,and must have been made directly to Adam,for himself and wife were the only two beings who had the days of the week to use.As it was addressed to Adam while yet in his uprightness it must have given to him as the head of human family.This is THE LORD’S DAY.God made this day so we can rejoyce and come to him to worship and give him thanks.There is another fundamental point I would like to make is that in Exodus 20:10 says “But the seventh day is the Sabbath of the LORD your God:in it you shall not do any work,nor your son nor your daughter your manservant, nor your maidservant,nor your cattle,nor your stranger that is within your gates”. Now here is abosolutly clear with out a doubt which day is the Lord’s day.If the Lord or Jesus for that matter would like for us all humans not just the Jews to follow their traditions both had plenty of time to change days if they wanted to, dont you think?. Now you may say well we cellebrate Jesus Resuration the first day of the week that’s fine by us at least we are keeping a Holy day to remember God.Also we read when God wrote His ten Commandments with his own finger on tow tablets of stone it’s funny to think about this but the fourth commandment starts by saying as we would forget.REMEMBER the Sabbath day,to keep it Holy…It can’t get more plain than this.The Patriarchs could not posibly have been ignorant of the facts and the obligation which the fouth commandment shows to have originated in the begginig,for Adam was present with them for a period equal to more than half the Chirstian dispensation.There is alot more I would like to write and I will later on. May God bless everyone here and all around the world espcially our troops over seas.

No one is arguing that the Sabbath is Sunday.

The Catholic Church proclaims that the Sabbath is Saturday, but the LORD’S DAY is Sunday.

 

[PRmerger]

IIf the Lord or Jesus for that matter would like for us all humans not just the Jews to follow their traditions both had plenty of time to change days

Just wondering, funny4god, what your pastor’ preaches regarding divorce? Does he follow the OT injunction, or the NT?

 

[pablope]

I respectfully disagree with your assertion.First when we look back in history of the Sabbath it goes back 6000 years.The Seventh Day is the Sabbath of the Lord. When he was done Creating the World He Rested and Sanctified. commandment starts by saying as we would forget.REMEMBER the Sabbath day,to keep it Holy…It can’t get more plain than this.The Patriarchs could not posibly have been ignorant of the facts and the obligation which the fouth commandment shows to have originated in the begginig,for Adam was present with them for a period equal to more than half the Chirstian dispensation.There is alot more I would like to write and I will later on. May God bless everyone here and all around the world espcially our troops over seas.

Christ established a new covenant…as He says so…at the Last supper…and was fulfilled or sealed at His passion, death and resurrection…and ascension…the Old covenenat was replaced by the new…and so…the new day for worship under the new covenant…is the Lord’s Day.

 

[Lucky_Catholic1]

Hello People

Going way of topic.

I know I’m Posting a lot, but it’s a big issue, and thanks to the Pope and the Fellowship of Bishops
and Cardinals they have explained this point for us.


The Church Fathers has put this straight.

“It is well to remind the Presbyterians, Baptists, Methodists, and all other Christians, that the Bible does not support them anywhere in their observance of Sunday. Sunday is an institution of the Roman Catholic Church, and those who observe the day observe a commandment of the Catholic Church.” Priest Brady, in an address, reported in the Elizabeth, NJ ‘News’ on March 18, 1903.

“Protestants … accept Sunday rather than Saturday as the day for public worship after the Catholic Church made the change… But the Protestant mind does not seem to realize that … in observing Sunday, they are accepting the authority of the spokesman for the Church, the pope.” Our Sunday Visitor, February 5th, 1950.

Question: Why do we observe Sunday instead of Saturday?
Answer: We observe Sunday instead of Saturday because the Catholic Church transferred the solemnity from Saturday to Sunday.” -Rev. Peter Geiermann C.SS.R., The Convert’s Catechism of Catholic Doctrine, p. 50

‘‘The [Roman Catholic] Church changed the observance of the Sabbath to Sunday by right of the divine, infallible authority given to her by her founder, Jesus Christ. THE PROTESTANT CLAIMING THE BIBLE TO BE THE ONLY GUIDE OF FAITH, HAS NO WARRANT FOR OBSERVING SUNDAY. In this matter the Seventh-day Adventist is the only consistent Protestant.’’ The Catholic Universe Bulletin, August 14, 1942, p. 4.

“… YOU MAY READ THE BIBLE FROM GENESIS TO REVELATION, AND YOU WILL NOT FIND A SINGLE LINE AUTHORIZING THE SANCTIFICATION OF SUNDAY. THE SCRIPTURES ENFORCE THE RELIGIOUS OBSERVANCE OF SATURDAY, A DAY WHICH WE NEVER SANCTIFY.” The Faith of Our Fathers, by James Cardinal Gibbons, Archbishop of Baltimore, 88th edition, page 89. Originally published in 1876, republished and Copyright 1980 by TAN Books and Publishers, Inc., pages 72-73.

‘Deny the authority of the Church and you have no adequate or reasonable explanation or justification for the substitution of Sunday for Saturday in the Third - Protestant Fourth - Commandment of God… The Church is above the Bible, and this transference of Sabbath observance is proof of that fact.’’ Catholic Record, September 1, 1923.

“Perhaps the boldest thing, the most revolutionary change the Church ever did, happened in the first century. The holy day, the Sabbath, was changed from Saturday to Sunday. “The Day of the Lord” (dies Dominica) was chosen, not from any directions noted in the Scriptures, but from the Church’s sense of its own power. The day of resurrection, the day of Pentecost, fifty days later, came on the first day of the week. So this would be the new Sabbath. People who think that the Scriptures should be the sole authority, should logically become 7th Day Adventists, and keep Saturday holy.” Sentinel, Pastor’s page, Saint Catherine Catholic Church, Algonac, Michigan, May 21, 1995

“If Protestants would follow the Bible, they would worship God on the Sabbath Day. In keeping the Sunday they are following a law of the Catholic Church.” Albert Smith, Chancellor of the Archdiocese of Baltimore, replying for the Cardinal, in a letter dated February 10, 1920.

“The observance of Sunday by the Protestants is homage they pay, in spite of themselves, to the authority of the [Catholic] Church.” Monsignor Louis Segur, ‘Plain Talk about the Protestantism of Today’, p. 213.

Try this one:

''I have repeatedly offered $1,000 to anyone who can prove to me from the Bible alone that I am bound to keep Sunday holy. There is no such law in the Bible. It is a law of the holy Catholic Church alone. The Bible says ‘Remember the Sabbath day to keep it holy.’ The Catholic Church says, No. By my divine power I abolish the Sabbath day and command you to keep holy the first day of the week. And lo! The entire civilized world bows down in reverent obedience to the command of the Holy Catholic Church." Priest Thomas Enright, C.S.S.R., February 18, 1884, Printed in the American Sentinel, a New York Roman Catholic journal in June 1893, p. 173.

“Tradition, not Scripture, is the rock on which the church of Jesus Christ is built.” Adrien Nampon, Catholic Doctrine as Defined by the Council of Trent, p. 157

“When St. Paul repudiated the works of the law, he was not thinking of the Ten Commandments, which are as unchangeable as God Himself is, which God could not change and still remain the infinitely holy God.”-Our Sunday Visitor, Oct. 7, I951.

“If we consulted the Bible only, we should still have to keep holy the Sabbath Day, that is, Saturday, with the Jews, instead of Sunday; …” – A Course in Religion for Catholic High Schools and Academies, by Rev. John Laux M.A., Benzinger Brothers, 1936 edition, Part 1.

“Sunday is a Catholic institution, and… can be defended only on Catholic principles… From beginning to end of Scripture there is not a single passage that warrants the transfer of weekly public worship from the last day of the week to the first.” Catholic Press, Aug. 25, 1900

“The Sabbath was Saturday, not Sunday. The Church altered the observance of the Sabbath to the observance of Sunday. Protestants must be rather puzzled by the keeping of Sunday when God distinctly said, ‘Keep holy the Sabbath Day.’ The word Sunday does not come anywhere in the Bible, so, without knowing it they are obeying the authority of the Catholic Church.” Canon Cafferata, The Catechism Explained, p. 89.

 

[tqualey]

Hi, Funny4god,

I think PRmerger gave an excellent response to your post. Let me add something else …

When I read your post the omission of any NT quotations or citatons was painfully obvious. Based on this, it is curious why you would not uphold all of the Law - after all, the source is the same: God. Now, St. Paul spent some time actually addressing how good it is that we have been set free from the Law - and, I think your post is a good example of why this is so.

Since, however, you claim to be a Protestant and by that I understand that you are following Christ - who is Lord of the Sabbath - why not search the NT Scriptures and see just where the Catholic Church gets the idea of the Lord’s Day as the day we celebrate Jesus Christ.

By the way, no one is saying you can not worship God on the Sabbath - or any other day for that matter. The Apostles - the First Bishops of the Catholic Church - established Sunday as the Day to Worship the Lord.

God bless

I respectfully disagree with your assertion.First when we look back in history of the Sabbath it goes back 6000 years.The Seventh Day is the Sabbath of the Lord. When he was done Creating the World He Rested and Sanctified. We read in Genesis 2:2 "And on the Seventh day God ended his work which he had made ;and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made “.(key word) God finish all his work on the six day and the Sabbath means Rested on the Seventh day, God made the Seventh Day to REST and keep in mind at the beginning there was only two humans on earth Adam and Eve now the question is: Were Adam and Eve Jews?I think you know the answer. Then we read on Gen 2:3 And God Bless the Seventh day and sanctified it:because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and Made.” Now to me is crystal clear that God Bless it and Sanctified it. Which means he God made that day for humankind to follow. This Divine appointment grows out the nature and fitness of things,and must have been made directly to Adam,for himself and wife were the only two beings who had the days of the week to use.As it was addressed to Adam while yet in his uprightness it must have given to him as the head of human family.This is THE LORD’S DAY.God made this day so we can rejoyce and come to him to worship and give him thanks.There is another fundamental point I would like to make is that in Exodus 20:10 says “But the seventh day is the Sabbath of the LORD your God:in it you shall not do any work,nor your son nor your daughter your manservant, nor your maidservant,nor your cattle,nor your stranger that is within your gates”. Now here is abosolutly clear with out a doubt which day is the Lord’s day.If the Lord or Jesus for that matter would like for us all humans not just the Jews to follow their traditions both had plenty of time to change days if they wanted to, dont you think?. Now you may say well we cellebrate Jesus Resuration the first day of the week that’s fine by us at least we are keeping a Holy day to remember God.Also we read when God wrote His ten Commandments with his own finger on tow tablets of stone it’s funny to think about this but the fourth commandment starts by saying as we would forget.REMEMBER the Sabbath day,to keep it Holy…It can’t get more plain than this.The Patriarchs could not posibly have been ignorant of the facts and the obligation which the fouth commandment shows to have originated in the begginig,for Adam was present with them for a period equal to more than half the Chirstian dispensation.There is alot more I would like to write and I will later on. May God bless everyone here and all around the world espcially our troops over seas.

 

[tqualey]

Hi, Lucky_Cathoic1,

Welcome to CAF - I think you will truly benefit from being on this listserve. You have sent an excellent post!

God bless

Hello People

Going way of topic.

I know I’m Posting a lot, but it’s a big issue, and thanks to the Pope and the Fellowship of Bishops
and Cardinals they have explained this point for us.


The Church Fathers has put this straight.

“It is well to remind the Presbyterians, Baptists, Methodists, and all other Christians, that the Bible does not support them anywhere in their observance of Sunday. Sunday is an institution of the Roman Catholic Church, and those who observe the day observe a commandment of the Catholic Church.” Priest Brady, in an address, reported in the Elizabeth, NJ ‘News’ on March 18, 1903.

“Protestants … accept Sunday rather than Saturday as the day for public worship after the Catholic Church made the change… But the Protestant mind does not seem to realize that … in observing Sunday, they are accepting the authority of the spokesman for the Church, the pope.” Our Sunday Visitor, February 5th, 1950.

Question: Why do we observe Sunday instead of Saturday?
Answer: We observe Sunday instead of Saturday because the Catholic Church transferred the solemnity from Saturday to Sunday.” -Rev. Peter Geiermann C.SS.R., The Convert’s Catechism of Catholic Doctrine, p. 50

‘‘The [Roman Catholic] Church changed the observance of the Sabbath to Sunday by right of the divine, infallible authority given to her by her founder, Jesus Christ. THE PROTESTANT CLAIMING THE BIBLE TO BE THE ONLY GUIDE OF FAITH, HAS NO WARRANT FOR OBSERVING SUNDAY. In this matter the Seventh-day Adventist is the only consistent Protestant.’’ The Catholic Universe Bulletin, August 14, 1942, p. 4.

“… YOU MAY READ THE BIBLE FROM GENESIS TO REVELATION, AND YOU WILL NOT FIND A SINGLE LINE AUTHORIZING THE SANCTIFICATION OF SUNDAY. THE SCRIPTURES ENFORCE THE RELIGIOUS OBSERVANCE OF SATURDAY, A DAY WHICH WE NEVER SANCTIFY.” The Faith of Our Fathers, by James Cardinal Gibbons, Archbishop of Baltimore, 88th edition, page 89. Originally published in 1876, republished and Copyright 1980 by TAN Books and Publishers, Inc., pages 72-73.

‘Deny the authority of the Church and you have no adequate or reasonable explanation or justification for the substitution of Sunday for Saturday in the Third - Protestant Fourth - Commandment of God… The Church is above the Bible, and this transference of Sabbath observance is proof of that fact.’’ Catholic Record, September 1, 1923.

“Perhaps the boldest thing, the most revolutionary change the Church ever did, happened in the first century. The holy day, the Sabbath, was changed from Saturday to Sunday. “The Day of the Lord” (dies Dominica) was chosen, not from any directions noted in the Scriptures, but from the Church’s sense of its own power. The day of resurrection, the day of Pentecost, fifty days later, came on the first day of the week. So this would be the new Sabbath. People who think that the Scriptures should be the sole authority, should logically become 7th Day Adventists, and keep Saturday holy.” Sentinel, Pastor’s page, Saint Catherine Catholic Church, Algonac, Michigan, May 21, 1995

“If Protestants would follow the Bible, they would worship God on the Sabbath Day. In keeping the Sunday they are following a law of the Catholic Church.” Albert Smith, Chancellor of the Archdiocese of Baltimore, replying for the Cardinal, in a letter dated February 10, 1920.

“The observance of Sunday by the Protestants is homage they pay, in spite of themselves, to the authority of the [Catholic] Church.” Monsignor Louis Segur, ‘Plain Talk about the Protestantism of Today’, p. 213.

Try this one:

''I have repeatedly offered $1,000 to anyone who can prove to me from the Bible alone that I am bound to keep Sunday holy. There is no such law in the Bible. It is a law of the holy Catholic Church alone. The Bible says ‘Remember the Sabbath day to keep it holy.’ The Catholic Church says, No. By my divine power I abolish the Sabbath day and command you to keep holy the first day of the week. And lo! The entire civilized world bows down in reverent obedience to the command of the Holy Catholic Church." Priest Thomas Enright, C.S.S.R., February 18, 1884, Printed in the American Sentinel, a New York Roman Catholic journal in June 1893, p. 173.

“Tradition, not Scripture, is the rock on which the church of Jesus Christ is built.” Adrien Nampon, Catholic Doctrine as Defined by the Council of Trent, p. 157

“When St. Paul repudiated the works of the law, he was not thinking of the Ten Commandments, which are as unchangeable as God Himself is, which God could not change and still remain the infinitely holy God.”-Our Sunday Visitor, Oct. 7, I951.

“If we consulted the Bible only, we should still have to keep holy the Sabbath Day, that is, Saturday, with the Jews, instead of Sunday; …” – A Course in Religion for Catholic High Schools and Academies, by Rev. John Laux M.A., Benzinger Brothers, 1936 edition, Part 1.

“Sunday is a Catholic institution, and… can be defended only on Catholic principles… From beginning to end of Scripture there is not a single passage that warrants the transfer of weekly public worship from the last day of the week to the first.” Catholic Press, Aug. 25, 1900

“The Sabbath was Saturday, not Sunday. The Church altered the observance of the Sabbath to the observance of Sunday. Protestants must be rather puzzled by the keeping of Sunday when God distinctly said, ‘Keep holy the Sabbath Day.’ The word Sunday does not come anywhere in the Bible, so, without knowing it they are obeying the authority of the Catholic Church.” Canon Cafferata, The Catechism Explained, p. 89.

 

[shaky]

Hi, Shaky,

Seriously, just look around you. God made several dramatic revelations in the OT - and the NT has a large number, too - but, after 100AD … there are not many public revelations. There have always been private revelations in the OT when God would call upon a person - in private - and tell this person that God was appointing them to announce God’s message. Today, there are private revelations - some have been published and some we will not know about until we are with God. Now, just think about the revelations that we know about.

There is nothng NEW that God can add that will change the direction of all the other revelations He has given us. God is not going to say, “It’s OK not to worship me and you can treat your neighbor any way you want!” That is no going to happen.

We can ask for a private revelation all we want - but, my thinking is that God is going to want us to acknowledge, believe and then act upon the revelations He has already given to us. All of us really do have issues that we would like God to take a direct hand in and resolve for us. The truth is, God has a very Personal Hand that is trying to guide us to His Will. We all have a Free Will that can and does enable us to reject God’s Love through sin - and God clearly tells us He wants us to choose life and not death in all matters pertaining to our humanity and our immortal soul.

Really, if you feel better asking for a private revelation - be my guest. But, and strictly as a rhetorical question, what can you really ask for that God has not granted for the safety of your soul? We are created in His Image, He sent His Son to redeem us from sin, and for reasons known only to Him - He loves us deeply and passionately. What else is there?
And, if you think of something - and you don’t get that private revelation - what happens next?

Concerning self-denial, here is a link you may find helpful: chastitysf.com/q_illusions.htm

God bless

Hi Tqualey

Thanks for that link. I have read the page you gave and saved that website in my favourites so i can read the all the rest of things.This one part i read is right on track about how i have been seeing things regarding the world around me.Even what we see as good things to spend/indulge most of our time in can be out of the will of God…This also has shown me that Psychology has knowledge about unconscious defence. This is when we rely on our ‘‘Own SELF understanding’’ for Answers when the subconscious Mind reveals to our Conscious Mind the course of action to take to solve our problems and doubts to the questions we ask ourselves.
Can we rely on this when it comes to spiritual Matters.

In one sense i can understand there is nothing NEW that God can add that will change the direction of all the other revelations that God has already Given us. The OT and NT saints ‘‘directly experienced’’ God when they was given their private revelations to teach others which became our public revelation. But does that make God MUTE to us today as regarding we directly experiencing God with private revelation to CONFIRM what TRUE teaching he has already taught Other OT and NT Saints. How is God with us as Saints today ?
Coming from my perspective there is that many heresies flying around i Just want to Know the Exact Truth in what is what.

Jesus said in John 14:21 He that hath my commandments and keeps them. he it is who loves me: and he that loves me will be loved by my father: and i will love him and will MANIFEST/Reveal Myself to Him.

 

[tqualey]

Hi, Shaky,

You’ve asked a very interesting question - in fact, this question has been asked by many - even the Roman governor of Judea wanted that question answered … trouble is, he did not stick around for the answer from the Author of Truth Itself. So, let’s try a couple of approaches to get to the same conclusion.

You have identified yourself as Non-Denominational. As I appreciate this general concept - and then try to confine it into a definition I have crafted - they are individual groups of people who want to follow Christ but not withing the context of a particular set of beliefs or practices. All authority comes from the Bible - and it is the local preacher who identifies what the Bible means. Those not agreeing are free to form their own Non-Denominational group and believe as that preacher teaches. Now, if I missed something, let me know … but, as I said, this is my understanding.

Protestantism - both Non-Denominational and Denominational disagree on virtually everything that could be considered. (There is one thing, however - that all of Protestantism does agree on: the Catholic Church is wrong!) In no small measure ‘Sola Scruptura’ and ‘individual interpretation’ are responsible for all of this doctrinal chaos. Protestantism does not recognize a single authority source - and contrary to what you may have heard no book - including the Bible - interprets itself. Interpretation is done by man. The difference here is that the Holy Spirit is guidinng the Catholic Church’s infallible interpretations and each Protestant is on their own.

I submit to look at Protestantism - all forms - and note the areas of disagreement and agreement. Then compare this to the Catholic Church. After you have this list - then go back and do a historical search to see when these ideas came about. Luther’s contribution to the 16th Century revolt was ‘Sola Scriptura’ - but, prior to that - we find the Catholic Church (not individuals) defining and explaining the meaning of Scripture. And, as you notice - that was going on for over 1,500 years since Christ’s Resurrection.

In another post on the Real Presence, I challenged a poster about the meaning of John 6 and how his explanation was quite different from that of the Catholic Church. I asked him to write a summary of John 6 in no more then 100 words - and you may have guessed… there was a lot of bluster and claims that he understood it - but, he never wrote a single word. Actually, you can take any chapter from the NT and do the same thing - the very essence of Protestantism is to take the clearly written words and explain them away! Really. And, if you or anyone else has a doubt - just write your own summary (just 100 words max) and then compare it to any Protestant’s explanation. Writing such a summary of a written piece is something that 5th Graders are given as an assignment to see how well they comprehend what it is they have read. The 100 words does not allow one a lot of margin to put in their personal opinion or doctrinal bias - it is just a summary of the Scripture says. This is not an infallible process - but, I think it would be quite revealing. Simply read the text and then read the summary and see if the summary matches the text. Nothing mysterious here - just simple comprehension.

After you do this for several items, a strange pattern will begin to develop. The ‘strangeness’ is that while Protestantism claims ‘Sola Scriptura’ what it really means is ‘My interpretation of the written word’ (don’t know how to strike that into Latin… ) And, then you must ask yourself - if Christ says to do something and Protestantism says not to do it - who are you going to follow?

Now, take a look at your honest summary and compare it to the teachings of the Catholic Church. Do this for several items that you have summarized and a ‘strange’ but totally different pattern develops. What you wrote matches Catholic teaching - and it is nothing like the anti-Catholic criticism you have heard in the past. The Catholic Church - founded by Christ on weak and sinful Peter (and so are all of Peter’s successors) teaches the Truth.

There is the answer to your question.

God bless

God bless

Hi Tqualey

Thanks for that link. I have read the page you gave and saved that website in my favourites so i can read the all the rest of things.This one part i read is right on track about how i have been seeing things regarding the world around me.Even what we see as good things to spend/indulge most of our time in can be out of the will of God…This also has shown me that Psychology has knowledge about unconscious defence. This is when we rely on our ‘‘Own SELF understanding’’ for Answers when the subconscious Mind reveals to our Conscious Mind the course of action to take to solve our problems and doubts to the questions we ask ourselves.
Can we rely on this when it comes to spiritual Matters.

In one sense i can understand there is nothing NEW that God can add that will change the direction of all the other revelations that God has already Given us. The OT and NT saints ‘‘directly experienced’’ God when they was given their private revelations to teach others which became our public revelation. But does that make God MUTE to us today as regarding we directly experiencing God with private revelation to CONFIRM what TRUE teaching he has already taught Other OT and NT Saints. How is God with us as Saints today ?
Coming from my perspective there is that many heresies flying around i Just want to Know the Exact Truth in what is what.

Jesus said in John 14:21 He that hath my commandments and keeps them. he it is who loves me: and he that loves me will be loved by my father: and i will love him and will MANIFEST/Reveal Myself to Him.

 

[Lucky_Catholic1]

Hey tqualey
Thanks
My first post tho.

It’s really dumb that some people suggest the Sabbath was changed in the Bible.

Cardinal Gibbons wrote this:
“… YOU MAY READ THE BIBLE FROM GENESIS TO REVELATION, AND YOU WILL NOT FIND A SINGLE LINE AUTHORIZING THE SANCTIFICATION OF SUNDAY. THE SCRIPTURES ENFORCE THE RELIGIOUS OBSERVANCE OF SATURDAY, A DAY WHICH WE NEVER SANCTIFY.” The Faith of Our Fathers, by James Cardinal Gibbons, Archbishop of Baltimore, 88th edition, page 89. Originally published in 1876, republished and Copyright 1980 by TAN Books and Publishers, Inc., pages 72-73.

So obviously no Bible verse will contain any words that the Sabbath changed.

All us catholics must always keep this in mind:
“Tradition, not Scripture, is the rock on which the church of Jesus Christ is built.” Adrien Nampon, Catholic Doctrine as Defined by the Council of Trent, p. 157

“We confess that the Pope has power of changing Scripture and of adding to it, and taking from it, according to his will.” Roman Catholic Confessions for Protestants Oath, Article XI, (Confessio Romano-Catholica in Hungaria Evangelicis publice praescripta te proposita, editi a Streitwolf), as recorded in Congressional Record of the U.S.A., House Bill 1523, Contested election case of Eugene C. Bonniwell, against Thos. S. Butler, Feb. 15, 1913.

“Protestants … accept Sunday rather than Saturday as the day for public worship after the Catholic Church made the change… But the Protestant mind does not seem to realize that … in observing Sunday, they are accepting the authority of the spokesman for the Church, the pope.” Our Sunday Visitor, February 5th, 1950.

The Catholic Church is so open to this, the Authority given to the Pope, and by this Authority the Pope changed the divine Law from Sabbath to Sunday.

“Those who are obstinate toward the authority of the Roman Pontiff cannot obtain eternal salvation.” Pope Pius IX, Quanto Conficiamur Moerore, DNZ:1677, (quoted in Apostolic Digest, by Michael Malone, Book 5: “The Book of Obedience”, Chapter 1: “There is No Salvation Without Personal Submission to the Pope”).

By keeping Sabbath you reject the Authority of the Pope, and therefor without Catholic salvation.

Either Catholic Church by keeping Sunday or 7th Day Adventist and by keeping Sabbath.
“Perhaps the boldest thing, the most revolutionary change the Church ever did, happened in the first century. The holy day, the Sabbath, was changed from Saturday to Sunday. “The Day of the Lord” (dies Dominica) was chosen, not from any directions noted in the Scriptures, but from the Church’s sense of its own power. The day of resurrection, the day of Pentecost, fifty days later, came on the first day of the week. So this would be the new Sabbath. People who think that the Scriptures should be the sole authority, should logically become 7th Day Adventists, and keep Saturday holy.” Sentinel, Pastor’s page, Saint Catherine Catholic Church, Algonac, Michigan, May 21, 1995

I think this topic is drying out now.

Bye bye for now.

 

[PRmerger]

“We confess that the Pope has power of changing Scripture and of adding to it, and taking from it, according to his will.” Roman Catholic Confessions for Protestants Oath, Article XI, (Confessio Romano-Catholica in Hungaria Evangelicis publice praescripta te proposita, editi a Streitwolf), as recorded in Congressional Record of the U.S.A., House Bill 1523, Contested election case of Eugene C. Bonniwell, against Thos. S. Butler, Feb. 15, 1913.

This is not a correct explication of Catholic teaching, Lucky.

The Catholic Church has never proclaimed this.

No pope has the power to change Scripture or add to it. :nope:

 

[Lucky_Catholic1]

Hey Brother

The Pope has that Authority, here is an example.

The 10 Commandments as given by the Church:

1. I am the LORD your God:
   you shall not have
   strange Gods before me.
2. You shall not take
   the name of the LORD your God in vain.
3. Remember to keep holy the LORD’S Day.
4. Honor your father and your mother.
5. You shall not kill.
6. You shall not commit adultery.
7. You shall not steal.
8. You shall not bear false witness
   against your neighbor.
9. You shall not covet
   your neighbor’s wife.
10. You shall not covet
    your neighbor’s goods.
    vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/command.htm

The 10 Commandments in the Bible:
Exodus 20 — DRB
1 And the Lord spoke all these words:
2 I am the Lord thy God, who brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.
3 Thou shalt not have strange gods before me.
4 Thou shalt not make to thyself a graven thing, nor the likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or in the earth beneath, nor of those things that are in the waters under the earth.
5 Thou shalt not adore them, nor serve them: I am the Lord thy God, mighty, jealous, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me:
6 And shewing mercy unto thousands to them that love me, and keep my commandments.
7 Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain: for the Lord will not hold him guiltless that shall take the name of the Lord his God in vain.
8 Remember that thou keep holy the sabbath day.
9 Six days shalt thou labour, and shalt do all thy works.
10 But on the seventh day is the sabbath of the Lord thy God: thou shalt do no work on it, thou nor thy son, nor thy daughter, nor thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy beast, nor the stranger that is within thy gates.
11 For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, and the sea, and all things that are in them, and rested on the seventh day: therefore the Lord blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it.
12 Honour thy father and thy mother, that thou mayst be longlived upon the land which the Lord thy God will give thee.
13 Thou shalt not kill.
14 Thou shalt not commit adultery.
15 Thou shalt not steal.
16 Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour.
17 Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour’s house; neither shalt thou desire his wife, nor his servant, nor his handmaid, nor his ox, nor his ***, nor any thing that is his.

The has changed the Law from the Bible, including Sunday keeping of course.

I suggest asking your priest if you think the Vatican web site is incorrect.

Since the only Church that teaches Bible and Bible alone principle is the 7th Day Adventist Church. So they have to keep the Law as it is written in the Bible.

Tradition is higher than the Bible, The Pope is higher than the Bible.
Bible says Sabbath
Tradition says Sunday
Pope says Sunday.

"We observe Sunday instead of Saturday because the Catholic Church, in the Council of Laodicea (A.D. 364), transferred the solemnity from Saturday to Sunday.” — Peter Geiermann, C.S.S.R., The Convert’s Catechism of Catholic Doctrine, p. 50, 3rd edition, 1957.