Taking questions from Sabbatarians...

[Bible_Light]

It amazes me that people still believe in this particular heresy, Sabbatarianism.

So you are saying the fourth commandment of God is heresy? Wow!!!

I’m oft reminded of the Judaizer heresy when I hear SDA and other’s insist on keeping the Jewish Sabbath.

The Sabbath is not Jewish. It belongs to God,
Ex.20
10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the Lord thy God

But it was made for all mankind.

Mark2
27 And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath:

 

[TimeEntrance]

I was raised Catholic, **but don’t identify as a denominational Christian. **

You may not realize it but that is a bit of an oxymoron. Kind of like a man with no nationality.

If one is Christian but not Orthodox or Catholic then they are Protestant - irrespective if one claims to be non-denominational. Unless you’re high church Anglican then you’re probably a “half breed.”

Catholicism and Orthodoxy are not denominations anyways.

 

[johnnyjones]

You keep saying that so many things were changed, but this one specific thing that I ask
“show me where it was changed?”. You don’t seem willing or able to do. Could it be that it has not been changed?

Matt.5
17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

Yes, it tells me that the seventh day Sabbath of the ten commandments is the Lord’s day.

So you are saying that the Sabbath was changed to Sunday. Again I ask you to show me where this occurs? Are you saying that a commandment of God which was spoken by the mouth of God and written by His own finger on stone to signify it’s permanence has been changed because Luke says the disciples came together to eat (break bread)?

So you’re saying here that only part of the fourth commandment has been changed and that this is clear in Exodus? I’m sorry it’s not so clear to me. Could you explain it?

The Sabbath is the Lord’s day.
Mark2
28 Therefore the Son of man is Lord also of the sabbath.

I think I already answered this, but here it is again.

Rom.9
4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;

5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.

6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.

8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

The new covenant is made with SPIRITUAL ISRAEL and the Sabbath is still a sign that it is God that sanctifies them (and not man).

You seem to have put on blinders to my previous posts." Old Covenant". Why is it called Old Covenant? That is something for you to ponder. When I show you that God had a covenant between Himself and the people of Israel regarding a seventh day Sabbath, do you see scripture pointing out other commandments that have special instructions for the Israelites specifically? As well, you may be having trouble between a Sabbath meaning rest day and seventh day.

The sabbath is a rest day. The commandment does not say remember to keep holy the seventh day, but the rest day. The seventh day is a covenant between God and the people of Israel which was the rest day God instituted between His people and Himself. If your no longer practicing Judaism, you don’t practice and old covenant seventh day sabbath, that is where the change occurs.

Scripture shows no Saturday Sabbath keeping by the early Christians after the resurrection. They gathered and broke bread on the first day of the week which you dismiss.

 

[johnnyjones]

So you are saying the fourth commandment of God is heresy? Wow!!!

The Sabbath is not Jewish. It belongs to God,
Ex.20
10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the Lord thy God

But it was made for all mankind.

Mark2
27 And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath:

The rest day was made for all mankind, not the seventh day.

 

[Lochias]

I don’t know what you mean by “physically binding” Are you saying the Ten Commandments are no longer “physically binding” on God’s people?

Nope, just letting you come to the point on your own.

**The sacraficial system with it’s prophetic feasts has been fullfilled in the cross. **

And Jesus broke a lot of other societal norms along the way to the Cross, too. For example, he healed the sick on the Sabbath, and the Pharisees got all in a huff about it. Are you throwing in with their lot?

 

[torch621]

So you are saying the fourth commandment of God is heresy? Wow!!!

The Sabbath is not Jewish. It belongs to God,
Ex.20
10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the Lord thy God

But it was made for all mankind.

Mark2
27 And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath:

I knew you were going to put words in my mouth. No, but this nonsense that Christians are bound to observe a Jewish practice (Saturday Sabbath) is. Are you familiar with the Judaizers? They were Jewish converts who insisted that you couldn’t be saved unless you obeyed the Mosaic Law, just like SDA insist that in order to be a faithful Christian you must worship on Saturday.

Did you know that the Church has the authority to change the day of worship?

And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. And I will give to thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven. And whatsoever thou shalt bind upon earth, it shall be bound also in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose upon earth, it shall be loosed also in heaven. (Matthew 16:18-19)

 

[torch621]

Nope, just letting you come to the point on your own.

**The sacraficial system with it’s prophetic feasts has been fullfilled in the cross. **

And Jesus broke a lot of other societal norms along the way to the Cross, too. For example, he healed the sick on the Sabbath, and the Pharisees got all in a huff about it. Are you throwing in with their lot?

That’s exactly what he appears to be doing.

The entire Sabbatarian movement is built on a foundation of sand.

 

[Bible_Light]

You seem to have put on blinders to my previous posts." Old Covenant". Why is it called Old Covenant? That is something for you to ponder.

johnny, please read this passage very carefully and prayerfully.

Heb.8
7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.

8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:

9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.

10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

The difference between the old and the new covenant is not in the wording of the covenant. That remains the same. The difference lies in WHO THE COVENANT IS WITH. The first covenant was made with the children of Israel but, 8"For finding fault with them", they broke the covenant. The new covenant is made between God and man’s representative, (Jesus Christ), who kept the covenant and made it possible for us to enter God’s kingdom.

When I show you that God had a covenant between Himself and the people of Israel regarding a seventh day Sabbath, do you see scripture pointing out other commandments that have special instructions for the Israelites specifically?

The bible says that the Sabbath was made for man not just the Jews. Mark 2:27

As well, you may be having trouble between a Sabbath meaning rest day and seventh day.

The sabbath is a rest day. The commandment does not say remember to keep holy the seventh day, but the rest day. The seventh day is a covenant between God and the people of Israel which was the rest day God instituted between His people and Himself. If your no longer practicing Judaism, you don’t practice and old covenant seventh day sabbath, that is where the change occurs.

Ex.20
8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.

9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:

10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the Lord thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:

11 For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

As you can see verse 10 clearly identifies the Sabbath as the seventh day. This day was given just after creation, as a memorial of creation, long before there ever was a Jew.

Gen.2
2 And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.

3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.

Scripture shows no Saturday Sabbath keeping by the early Christians after the resurrection. They gathered and broke bread on the first day of the week which you dismiss.

Again this is quite untrue.

Luke 23
52 This man went unto Pilate, and begged the body of Jesus.

53 And he took it down, and wrapped it in linen, and laid it in a sepulchre that was hewn in stone, wherein never man before was laid.

54 And that day was the preparation, and the sabbath drew on.

55 And the women also, which came with him from Galilee, followed after, and beheld the sepulchre, and how his body was laid.

56 And they returned, and prepared spices and ointments; and rested the sabbath day according to the commandment.

Luke 24
1Now upon the first day of the week, very early in the morning, they came unto the sepulchre, bringing the spices which they had prepared, and certain others with them.

Acts13
13 Now when Paul and his company loosed from Paphos, they came to Perga in Pamphylia: and John departing from them returned to Jerusalem.

14 But when they departed from Perga, they came to Antioch in Pisidia, and went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and sat down.

15 And after the reading of the law and the prophets the rulers of the synagogue sent unto them, saying, Ye men and brethren, if ye have any word of exhortation for the people, say on.

16 Then Paul stood up, and beckoning with his hand said, Men of Israel, and ye that fear God, give audience.

Acts17
1 Now when they had passed through Amphipolis and Apollonia, they came to Thessalonica, where was a synagogue of the Jews:

2 And Paul, as his manner was, went in unto them, and three sabbath days reasoned with them out of the scriptures,

Acts18
4 And he reasoned in the synagogue every sabbath, and persuaded the Jews and the Greeks.

And consider this passage johnny

Acts13
42 And when the Jews were gone out of the synagogue, the Gentiles besought that these words might be preached to them the next sabbath.

43 Now when the congregation was broken up, many of the Jews and religious proselytes followed Paul and Barnabas: who, speaking to them, persuaded them to continue in the grace of God.

44 And the next sabbath day came almost the whole city together to hear the word of God.

If the day had been changed would not this have been an oportune time for Paul to say come back tomorrow (the first day). He didn’t say that because it hadn’t been changed.

Why would you think that the fact that the disciples stopped to eat has any bearing on anything? Even if this breaking of bread was the rite of rememberance would not mean that the Sabbath was changed. They probably performed that rite on all the days.

 

[Bible_Light]

The rest day was made for all mankind, not the seventh day.

Mark2
27 And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath:

Ex.20
10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the Lord thy God:

The seventh day Sabbath was made for mankind.

 

[Bible_Light]

Nope, just letting you come to the point on your own.

So you are saying that the ten commandments are not binding on Christians?

**The sacraficial system with it’s prophetic feasts has been fullfilled in the cross. **

And Jesus broke a lot of other societal norms along the way to the Cross, too. For example, he healed the sick on the Sabbath, and the Pharisees got all in a huff about it. Are you throwing in with their lot?

So, you are saying that
1)The Sabbath commandment was/is a “societal norm”
2)That Christ broke this “societal norm” making Him a sinner?

 

[torch621]

So you are saying that the ten commandments are not binding on Christians?

**The sacraficial system with it’s prophetic feasts has been fullfilled in the cross. **

So, you are saying that
1)The Sabbath commandment was/is a “societal norm”
2)That Christ broke this “societal norm” making Him a sinner?

How many times am I going to have to repeat this.

WE. ARE. NOT. JEWS

We observe the sabbath on Sunday because Jesus rose from the dead on Sunday. It’s not that difficult a truth to grasp.

 

[Lochias]

So you are saying that the ten commandments are not binding on Christians?

Oy vey. No, take a step back. You yourself said that Jesus fulfilled the old Covenant when he completed his work on the Cross.

B]The sacraficial system with it’s prophetic feasts has been fullfilled in the cross.

So, you are saying that
1)The Sabbath commandment was/is a “societal norm”
2)That Christ broke this “societal norm” making Him a sinner?

Okay. You’re either missing the point entirely, or you’re deliberately putting words in my mouth, in which case you officially have my permission to cut it out. Nobody is saying that the commandment itself is a societal norm, but the interpretation of which day it now falls upon is.

As to the comment about Christ? Be really, really careful, bub. You’re edging into heresy with remarks like that. Christ, as the bringer of the New Covenant, obviously didn’t think it was sinful to work on the Sabbath (which made the Pharisees mad to no end). Now,** if he ignored the day of the week in favor to do his work of healing the sick**, don’t you think, for a second, that he might not have a stick up his craw over which day was chosen to rest, as long as one was chosen?

No questions in response, no hedging off to one side, no putting words in my mouth…just answer the question that you yourself put forth: Did Jesus sin by working on the Jew’s Sabbath day?

 

[Bible_Light]

I knew you were going to put words in my mouth.

I didn’t put anything in your mouth. Here’s your statement.

It amazes me that people still believe in this particular heresy, Sabbatarianism.

I’m asumning that what you mean by Sabbatarianism is the idea that the ten commandments are still intact including the Sabbath. If that is what you are saying then you are saying that keeping God’s commndments is heresy.

No, but this nonsense that Christians are bound to observe a Jewish practice (Saturday Sabbath) is.

So again you are saying that we don’t have to keep any of the ten commandments because they were given to the Jews? What’s John talking about then when he says 4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law. 1Jn.3:4

Are you familiar with the Judaizers? They were Jewish converts who insisted that you couldn’t be saved unless you obeyed the Mosaic Law,

The judaizers believed that You must become a Jew before becoming a Christian

just like SDA insist that in order to be a faithful Christian you must worship on Saturday.

You must keep the commandments, that’s true. Are you saying that we can get to heaven if we don’t keep the commandments?

Did you know that the Church has the authority to change the day of worship?

No it doesn’t

And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. And I will give to thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven. And whatsoever thou shalt bind upon earth, it shall be bound also in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose upon earth, it shall be loosed also in heaven. (Matthew 16:18-19)

This passage tells us that we can bind or loose by either preaching or withholding the word of God (keys to the kingdom)

 

[Bible_Light]

So, you are saying that
1)The Sabbath commandment was/is a “societal norm”
2)That Christ broke this “societal norm” making Him a sinner?

How many times am I going to have to repeat this.

WE. ARE. NOT. JEWS

We observe the sabbath on Sunday because Jesus rose from the dead on Sunday. It’s not that difficult a truth to grasp.

Actually we are Jews SPIRITUAL JEWS.

Rom.9
4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;

5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.

6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.

8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

And I’ll keep repeating it till you get it.

 

[torch621]

How many times am I going to have to repeat this.

WE. ARE. NOT. JEWS

We observe the sabbath on Sunday because Jesus rose from the dead on Sunday. It’s not that difficult a truth to grasp.

Actually we are Jews SPIRITUAL JEWS.

Rom.9
4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;

5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.

6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.

8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

And I’ll keep repeating it till you get it.

sigh I’m done trying to explain anything to you. You obviously have no intention of listening to a thing anyone says, and don’t try to deny it.

I’ll let God deal with you and your heretical Protestant beliefs. You only have yourself to blame for the consequences that follow.

http://i.qkme.me/72mf.jpg#abandon%20thread\

 

[Bible_Light]

Oy vey. No, take a step back. You yourself said that Jesus fulfilled the old Covenant when he completed his work on the Cross. “The sacraficial system with it’s prophetic feasts has been fullfilled in the cross.”

The sacraficial system is not the old covenant.

Okay. You’re either missing the point entirely, or you’re deliberately putting words in my mouth, in which case you officially have my permission to cut it out. Nobody is saying that the commandment itself is a societal norm, but the interpretation of which day it now falls upon is.

The Sabbath is the seventh day. It is Satuday. I can and have shown you this from the bible. You can’t keep the Sabbath on any other day. Here is what you posted.

“And Jesus broke a lot of other societal norms along the way to the Cross, too. For example, he healed the sick on the Sabbath, and the Pharisees got all in a huff about it. Are you throwing in with their lot?”

This certainly sounds like you think Jesus broke the Sabbath commandment. If not, I would appreciate it if you would post with a little more clarity.

As to the comment about Christ? Be really, really careful, bub. You’re edging into heresy with remarks like that.

If you will read my post I’m not making that comment about Christ. It’s what I get from your post.

Christ, as the bringer of the New Covenant, obviously didn’t think it was sinful to work on the Sabbath (which made the Pharisees mad to no end). Now,** if he ignored the day of the week in favor to do his work of healing the sick**, don’t you think, for a second, that he might not have a stick up his craw over which day was chosen to rest, as long as one was chosen?

What is obvious is that to do good on the sabbath does not violate the day.

No questions in response, no hedging off to one side, no putting words in my mouth…just answer the question that you yourself put forth: Did Jesus sin by working on the Jew’s Sabbath day?

Jesus did not work on the Sabbath day by doing good. What He did was define what was and was not work. Jesus could not have sinned and been our savior.

 

[Bible_Light]

Actually we are Jews SPIRITUAL JEWS.

Rom.9
4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;

5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.

6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.

8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

And I’ll keep repeating it till you get it.

sigh I’m done trying to explain anything to you. You obviously have no intention of listening to a thing anyone says, and don’t try to deny it.

I’ll let God deal with you and your heretical Protestant beliefs. You only have yourself to blame for the consequences that follow.

http://i.qkme.me/72mf.jpg#abandon%20thread\

What you haven’t shown in any way is how my belief that the commandments of are still binding are heretical.

 

[Lochias]

The sacraficial system is not the old covenant.

True, but it has changed its substance, just like the day of the Sabbath.

The Sabbath is the seventh day. It is Satuday. I can and have shown you this from the bible. You can’t keep the Sabbath on any other day.

Show me where in the Bible that it says that the Bible is the authority above all others.

“And Jesus broke a lot of other societal norms along the way to the Cross, too. For example, he healed the sick on the Sabbath, and the Pharisees got all in a huff about it. Are you throwing in with their lot?”

This certainly sounds like you think Jesus broke the Sabbath commandment. If not, I would appreciate it if you would post with a little more clarity.

No. What I meant, frankly, is that you sound like one of the Pharisees, being hung up over the fact that it was a particular day. If Jesus was just doing good, and not changing the tenets concerning the day of the Sabbath, why were the Pharisees so up in arms?

 

[Bible_Light]

True, but it has changed its substance, just like the day of the Sabbath.

What has changed what’s substance?

Show me where in the Bible that it says that the Bible is the authority above all others.

Gen.2
2 And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.

3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.

God blesses and sanctifies the seventh day. If you read the creation account in Gen.1 you don’t see God blessing or sanctifying any other day.

Ex20
10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the Lord thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:

Ex.20:10 identifies the seventh dy as the Sabbath

Luke 23
52 This man went unto Pilate, and begged the body of Jesus.

53 And he took it down, and wrapped it in linen, and laid it in a sepulchre that was hewn in stone, wherein never man before was laid.

54 And that day was the preparation, and the sabbath drew on.

55 And the women also, which came with him from Galilee, followed after, and beheld the sepulchre, and how his body was laid.

56 And they returned, and prepared spices and ointments; and rested the sabbath day according to the commandment.

Luke 24
1Now upon the first day of the week, very early in the morning, they came unto the sepulchre, bringing the spices which they had prepared, and certain others with them.

Luke 23:52-24:1 places the Sabbath between the preperation day (Friday) and the first day Sunday. That would make it Saturday.

No. What I meant, frankly, is that you sound like one of the Pharisees, being hung up over the fact that it was a particular day. If Jesus was just doing good, and not changing the tenets concerning the day of the Sabbath, why were the Pharisees so up in arms?

What I have just shown is that the Sabbath is Saturday and no other day. What Jesus was teaching was that we need to keep the Sabbath GOD’S WAY. The pharisees put all kinds of restrictions on the day that God never intended.

 

[JoaoMachado]

My apologies to everyone on this thread, I have accidentally sold my house and now am faced with moving family of eight and one lab in a two week period. It may be weeks before I am able to sit and respond to many of these posts.

A couple of things really quick. The Sabbath is first and foremost the sign of the Covenant (promise) that Israel is God’s chosen people, period! There is no way anyone can dispute that, you can search the Scriptures all you want, you will not find anything to the contrary. The Sabbath is strictly for Israel and it is NOT an eternal Covenant, God specifically states that it is for ALL of Israel’s generations and there will come a time when all generations will cease to be.

Jesus Christ is God, if you believe that then when you read the Gospels you will see that with the death of Jesus the Sabbath Covenant ends and His New and Everlasting Covenant begins.

In Christ,

Joao