Taking questions from Sabbatarians...

[Lochias]

Ya, I see no reason to continue here.

Why not? If your arguments about the Sabbath aren’t logical, why not continue and see why they don’t make any sense?

 

[Bible_Light]

You should convert to Judaism if you completely embrace your last statement.

Why because I believe God?
Ex.20
8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.

9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:

10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the Lord thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:

11 For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

Here’s where He broke the Sabbath but didn’t to use your words. John 5:18 For his reason the Jews tried all the harder to kill Him; not only was he breaking the Sabbath but He was even calling God His own Father making Himself equal with God.

Jesus broke the traditions of the Pharisees which they believed to be the Sabbath. That was their understanding of the Sabbath and what it evolved into.

Yes this is what I was trying to say

The seventh day Sabbath is a a covenant between God and the people of Israel. That is what scripture says. Why are you finding difficulty with that?

Mark2
27 And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath:

Doesn’t say children of Israel or Jews. It says the Sabath was made for man. I’m thinking that means all men.

 

[Bible_Light]

Why not? If your arguments about the Sabbath aren’t logical, why not continue and see why they don’t make any sense?

Because you’re getting a little too nasty.

 

[pablope]

Why because I believe God?
Ex.20
8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.

9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:

Mark2
27 And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath:

Doesn’t say children of Israel or Jews. It says the Sabath was made for man. I’m thinking that means all men.

Let me ask…since the resurrection of Christ…with the establishment of the New Covenant…25 In the same way, after supper he took the cup, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood; do this, whenever you drink it, in remembrance of me.”(1Cor11)…the worship of the New Covenant was the Lord’s day…as started and understood by the Apostles…and this is where Christianity has worshipped ever since.

So who commanded that it be placed back to Saturday? By what authority? Did God hand down a new covenant to replace the one established by Christ at his Passion, death and resurrection?

 

[Lochias]

Because you’re getting a little too nasty.

How so?

 

[Bible_Light]

How so?

Gotcha. If all you can do is spout assumptions and lies when I ask you a very, very simple question, your argument has no leg to stand on. None at all.

If you want to carry on a civil dialogue, fine. I will not continue with anyone who calls me a liar or any other degrading name.

 

[Bible_Light]

Let me ask…since the resurrection of Christ…with the establishment of the New Covenant…25 In the same way, after supper he took the cup, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood; do this, whenever you drink it, in remembrance of me.”(1Cor11)…the worship of the New Covenant was the Lord’s day…as started and understood by the Apostles…and this is where Christianity has worshipped ever since.

So who commanded that it be placed back to Saturday? By what authority? Did God hand down a new covenant to replace the one established by Christ at his Passion, death and resurrection?

The passage you quote says nothing about changing the day. The Lord’s day by the way is the Sabbath.

Mark2
27 And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath:

28 Therefore the Son of man is Lord also of the sabbath.

If the Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath doesn’t that make the Sabbath the Lord’s day?

 

[johnnyjones]

Why because I believe God?
Ex.20
8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.

9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:

10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the Lord thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:

11 For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

Yes this is what I was trying to say

Mark2
27 And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath:

Doesn’t say children of Israel or Jews. It says the Sabath was made for man. I’m thinking that means all men.

Ah, but if as I showed you inExodus it does say that the Sabbath (above all other commandments) is a covenant between God and Israel, what do you do? What you do is come to a proper understanding of the verse you keep repeating–“the sabbath was made for man and not the man for the sabbath”. The first part says the sabbath was made for man–so that is a good thing to let sink in. God made a Sabbath for the man, a rest day, the seventh day, that he wanted the Isrealities to follow.

The second part is-- “and not man for the sabbath”. Man wasn’t made for a sabbath that would weigh him down with restriction upon restriction, forcing unnecessary burdens that were hard to keep. He was made to REST, and they were not resting. Jesus squashed their nonsense and showed them true rest, in Him.

In addition, Exodus outlines a unique covenant for ONE commandment only, the sabbath commandment, not the other 9. All the commandements are for mankind but a caveat was added for the sabbath day with the people of Israel.

 

[Bible_Light]

Ah, but if as I showed you inExodus it does say that the Sabbath (above all other commandments) is a covenant between God and Israel, what do you do? What you do is come to a proper understanding of the verse you keep repeating–“the sabbath was made for man and not the man for the sabbath”. The first part says the sabbath was made for man–so that is a good thing to let sink in. God made a Sabbath for the man, a rest day, the seventh day, that he wanted the Isrealities to follow.

Again not just the Isrealites, all of mankind.

The second part is-- “and not man for the sabbath”. Man wasn’t made for a sabbath that would weigh him down with restriction upon restriction, forcing unnecessary burdens that were hard to keep. He was made to REST, and they were not resting. Jesus squashed their nonsense and showed them true rest, in Him.

I agree with this wholeheartedly. He did not however change the day of the fourth commandment. If you have a verse that says He did, please, by all means spit it out.

In addition, Exodus outlines a unique covenant for ONE commandment only, the sabbath commandment, not the other 9. All the commandements are for mankind but a caveat was added for the sabbath day with the people of Israel.

What would that caveat be?

 

[pablope]

The passage you quote says nothing about changing the day. The Lord’s day by the way is the Sabbath.

Mark2
27 And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath:

28 Therefore the Son of man is Lord also of the sabbath.

If the Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath doesn’t that make the Sabbath the Lord’s day?

I am not asking about that…I am asking about authority…as the passage says…there is a new covenant…and the it was the Apostles who understood it better than anyone else…and it is from them that The Lord’s day became the new day of worship…for the new covenant.

So, let me repeat the question…So who commanded that it be placed back to Saturday? By what authority? Did God hand down a new covenant to replace the one established by Christ at his Passion, death and resurrection?

Can you prove the authority of this one who says it should be Saturday…as coming from God?

 

[Bible_Light]

I am not asking about that…I am asking about authority…as the passage says…there is a new covenant…and the it was the Apostles who understood it better than anyone else…and it is from them that The Lord’s day became the new day of worship…for the new covenant.

Who says so? Where does it state or even imply that the apostles changed the day?

So, let me repeat the question…So who commanded that it be placed back to Saturday? By what authority? Did God hand down a new covenant to replace the one established by Christ at his Passion, death and resurrection?

If it was not changed in the first place and it wasn’t, then there is no reason to change it back.

Can you prove the authority of this one who says it should be Saturday…as coming from God?

The fourth commandment is from God, right?

 

[johnnyjones]

Again not just the Isrealites, all of mankind.

I agree with this wholeheartedly. He did not however change the day of the fourth commandment. If you have a verse that says He did, please, by all means spit it out.

What would that caveat be?

But why do you keep saying not just the Israelites?

“The Israelites are to observe the Sabbath, celebrating it for the generations to come as a lasting covenant.” Exodus 21:16
“It will be a sign between me and the Israelites forever, for in six days the Lord made the heaven and earth and on the seventh day He abstained from work and rested.” Exodus 21:17

Is there something that can’t be comprehended from these verses? There are actually supporting verses but thse are very clear.

You see also, you are Protestant. I came from 15 or more years of Fundamentalism and understand that you want a verse that says “I am Jesus, I am now changing the Sabbath day from Saturday to Sunday”. I always looked for verses like that to support whatever view I was holding.

Would you agree that there are teachings, doctrines, that need study? Maybe you are Fundmentalist like I was. In that case it will be difficult to reach you because Jesus didn’t just leave a book, He left a church. But that is a matter for another time.

You must understand fully what a covenant is. If God enters into one with a certain population, that will stand. Change can occur through events, not just a single word or words. People have been arguing for many years that Jesus never said homosexuality is wrong. I believe he did, but not directly in a one verse. So , you look at supporting verses and put them together to come to the correct conclusion.

The Sabbath was changed because the covenant between God and the Israelites was fulfilled in the true rest of Jesus. When we have been working hard and are weary and tired we need rest in order to restore our strength. But this is not the significance of the word here. It simply means the ending of activity, the cessation of effort. God was not tired by his creative work, he did not need to rest to restore strength. He did not stop because he was fatigued; he stopped because he was through.

Saturday, is not the real sabbath. It never was, and it is not now. It is a picture or a reminder of the real sabbath. The true sabbath is a rest; the Jewish sabbath is a shadow, a picture of that rest. All the Old Testament shadows pointed to Christ. They were predictions, foreviews, of the coming of the One who would fulfill all these remarkable things.

This is exactly what happened with these Old Testament shadows, including the Sabbath. When the Lord came, and his work was ended, making possible the true fulfillment of God’s intention in the Sabbath, the picture was no longer needed. The weekly sabbath ended at the cross. You are wrapped up in in an old picture of rest. Please cease from Sabbatarianism, you don’t need to do this as a Christian.

 

[pablope]

Originally Posted by pablope
I am not asking about that…I am asking about authority…as the passage says…there is a new covenant…and the it was the Apostles who understood it better than anyone else…and it is from them that The Lord’s day became the new day of worship…for the new covenant.

Who says so? Where does it state or even imply that the apostles changed the day?

It started with Christ’s statement that He was the Lord of the Sabbath day (Matt. 12:8). He had the right and authority to interpret it and to do what He liked for the good of men. In the New Testament this is the first embryonic revelation of the Lord’s Day, anticipating its adoption by the Apostles as the day of worship. Since the Lord was resurrected and appeared to His disciples on the first day of the week (John20:1,19), and appeared again to the apostles on the following first day of the week (John 20:26), undoubtedly the first day of the week is sealed as “the day.”

Further, when Paul and his companions stayed at Troas for seven days, a Sabbath passed by, yet there was not a single hint that they observed it. On the contrary, when the first day of the week came, the disciples gathered together to break bread, and Paul preached. Why did they have to wait until the first day of the week? Obviously this period of time had already become the formal day for Christians’ gathering.

Question:
So, let me repeat the question…So who commanded that it be placed back to Saturday? By what authority? Did God hand down a new covenant to replace the one established by Christ at his Passion, death and resurrection?

If it was not changed in the first place and it wasn’t, then there is no reason to change it back.

See above…there is a new covenent.

Question: Can you prove the authority of this one who says it should be Saturday…as coming from God?

The fourth commandment is from God, right?

It says observe the Sabbath…but did not specify the day, it was the Jews who made it a Saturday…but we observe a new sabbath with the New covenent.

So…back to the question…who is this new authority that is claiming it should go back to Saturday? Where is that authority and where does its authority come from?

Here is also what the Bible says…1 John 4:6
6 We are from God, and whoever knows God listens to us; but whoever is not from God does not listen to us. This is how we recognize the Spirit[a] of truth and the spirit of falsehood.

Has this authority submitted himself/herself/itself to the Apostles, for approval, as the passage above states?

 

[Lochias]

If you want to carry on a civil dialogue, fine. I will not continue with anyone who calls me a liar or any other degrading name.

But you are lying, because we’ve demonstrated how you are in error, yet you continue. AND, you’ve put words in all of our mouths and cannot give a straight answer to any of our questions.

You’re being obtuse, whether or not it’s on purpose, and your credibility would rise a bit if you’d simply admit that you’ve got no sound argument at all.

 

[Bible_Light]

But why do you keep saying not just the Israelites?

“The Israelites are to observe the Sabbath, celebrating it for the generations to come as a lasting covenant.” Exodus 21:16
“It will be a sign between me and the Israelites forever, for in six days the Lord made the heaven and earth and on the seventh day He abstained from work and rested.” Exodus 21:17

Is there something that can’t be comprehended from these verses? There are actually supporting verses but thse are very clear.

Ok, I answered this several times before, But let’s give it one more try. If you think that God was only talking to the ethnic Jews in Ex.31 not 21 by the way, then what do you do with Mark 2: 27 And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath:
The two seem incompatable, right? We know or at least we should know that there are no contradictions in the bible. Well, let’s assumne that we know what is meant by man in Mark 2:27 That would mean that we have a faulty understanding of what is meant by Israelites or Jews. Consider Heb8

6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.

7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.

8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:

9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.

10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.

The new covenant is made with the “the house of Israel and with the house of Judah” Wouldn’t that men the Jews? Does that mean that Jesus came only for the Jews? Of coarse not. So again we need to adjust our understanding of what “the house of Israel and with the house of Judah” means. So, let’s look at

Romans 9

4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;

5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.

6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.

8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

“they are not all Israel” What this is saying is all of those that are ethnic Jews are not necessarily children of God John1:12 but the children of the promise are. What does that mean? Well, this is the promise talked about.

Gen12
2 And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing:

3 And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.

This blessing is of coarse Jesus Christ. So, you see when ex.31:13 Speak thou also unto the children of Israel, saying, Verily my sabbaths ye shall keep: for it is a sign between me and you throughout your generations; that ye may know that I am the Lord that doth sanctify you.

This is actually talking about the children of the promise or CHRISTIANS.

The Sabbath was changed because the covenant between God and the Israelites was fulfilled in the true rest of Jesus.

You need to provide some scriptural evidence of this. It’s not so just because you say it is.

Saturday, is not the real sabbath. It never was, and it is not now. It is a picture or a reminder of the real sabbath. The true sabbath is a rest; the Jewish sabbath is a shadow, a picture of that rest. All the Old Testament shadows pointed to Christ. They were predictions, foreviews, of the coming of the One who would fulfill all these remarkable things.

Saturday is the Sabbath. I have shown this several times. There is no such thing as a “Jewish sabbath”. The Sabbath belongs to God.

Ex.20
10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the Lord thy God:

This is exactly what happened with these Old Testament shadows, including the Sabbath.

The Sabbath is not a shadow of anything what it is, is a remberance of God as creator Ex20:8-11 or as redeemer Deu. 5:12-15

When the Lord came, and his work was ended, making possible the true fulfillment of God’s intention in the Sabbath, the picture was no longer needed.

Why do you think that the Lord was incapable of stating His true intensions the first time?

The weekly sabbath ended at the cross. You are wrapped up in in an old picture of rest. Please cease from Sabbatarianism, you don’t need to do this as a Christian.

The Sabbath has not ended at the cross in fact keeping God’s law is the mark of God’s end time remnant church.

Rev.12
17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Rev.14
12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

 

[johnnyjones]

Ok, I answered this several times before, But let’s give it one more try. If you think that God was only talking to the ethnic Jews in Ex.31 not 21 by the way, then what do you do with Mark 2: 27 And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath:
The two seem incompatable, right? We know or at least we should know that there are no contradictions in the bible. Well, let’s assumne that we know what is meant by man in Mark 2:27 That would mean that we have a faulty understanding of what is meant by Israelites or Jews. Consider Heb8

6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.

7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.

8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:

9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.

10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.

The new covenant is made with the “the house of Israel and with the house of Judah” Wouldn’t that men the Jews? Does that mean that Jesus came only for the Jews? Of coarse not. So again we need to adjust our understanding of what “the house of Israel and with the house of Judah” means. So, let’s look at

Romans 9

4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;

5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.

6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.

8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

“they are not all Israel” What this is saying is all of those that are ethnic Jews are not necessarily children of God John1:12 but the children of the promise are. What does that mean? Well, this is the promise talked about.

Gen12
2 And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing:

3 And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.

This blessing is of coarse Jesus Christ. So, you see when ex.31:13 Speak thou also unto the children of Israel, saying, Verily my sabbaths ye shall keep: for it is a sign between me and you throughout your generations; that ye may know that I am the Lord that doth sanctify you.

This is actually talking about the children of the promise or CHRISTIANS.

You need to provide some scriptural evidence of this. It’s not so just because you say it is.

Saturday is the Sabbath. I have shown this several times. There is no such thing as a “Jewish sabbath”. The Sabbath belongs to God.

Ex.20
10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the Lord thy God:

The Sabbath is not a shadow of anything what it is, is a remberance of God as creator Ex20:8-11 or as redeemer Deu. 5:12-15

Why do you think that the Lord was incapable of stating His true intensions the first time?

The Sabbath has not ended at the cross in fact keeping God’s law is the mark of God’s end time remnant church.

Rev.12
17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Rev.14
12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

You have shown nothing that tells me a Saturday Sabbath should still be kept and seem intent on asking rhetorical questions that have relevance only to you. You have disregarded how the OT points to Jesus regarding the Sabbath. Obviously this conversation will end with you fully convinced of your view, because I have no intention of proceeding considering the ample amount of information I have repeatedly provided.

Comment if you must, but it’s over.

 

[Bible_Light]

You have shown nothing that tells me a Saturday Sabbath should still be kept and seem intent on asking rhetorical questions that have relevance only to you. You have disregarded how the OT points to Jesus regarding the Sabbath. Obviously this conversation will end with you fully convinced of your view, because I have no intention of proceeding considering the ample amount of information I have repeatedly provided.

Comment if you must, but it’s over.

Ok, brother, I tried.

 

[pablope]

Ok, brother, I tried.

Then how about answering the question on authority…in post 93?

Which I will repost here:

So…back to the question…who is this new authority that is claiming it should go back to Saturday? Where is that authority and where does its authority come from?

Here is also what the Bible says…1 John 4:6
6 We are from God, and whoever knows God listens to us; but whoever is not from God does not listen to us. This is how we recognize the Spirit[a] of truth and the spirit of falsehood.

Has this authority submitted himself/herself/itself to the Apostles, for approval, as the passage above states?

And also, why should I believe this authority that you believe…versus that of the Apostles?

How did this authority come to believe that it should revert back to Saturday?

 

[Bible_Light]

Then how about answering the question on authority…in post 93?

Which I will repost here:

So…back to the question…who is this new authority that is claiming it should go back to Saturday? Where is that authority and where does its authority come from?

Here is also what the Bible says…1 John 4:6
6 We are from God, and whoever knows God listens to us; but whoever is not from God does not listen to us. This is how we recognize the Spirit[a] of truth and the spirit of falsehood.

Has this authority submitted himself/herself/itself to the Apostles, for approval, as the passage above states?

And also, why should I believe this authority that you believe…versus that of the Apostles?

How did this authority come to believe that it should revert back to Saturday?

Back to Saturday? You never showed me where the apostles or anyone else changed it from Saturday and if it wasn’t changed it doesn’t have to be changed back. What you have to do is be obedient to God and keep His day holy. That would be Saturday.

 

[pablope]

Back to Saturday? You never showed me where the apostles or anyone else changed it from Saturday and if it wasn’t changed it doesn’t have to be changed back. What you have to do is be obedient to God and keep His day holy. That would be Saturday.

Hmmm…I did…in post 93 too…and all the previous posts…looks like you are evading…so what is hard about answering the question of your authority?

It is explicit in the Scriptures…as shown by Paul in 'Troas…where he broke bread on the Lord’s day…looks like you are playing blind…and it is not that hard the answer the question on authority?

Or is it you just do want to admit it is Ellen G White and her purported revelations?