Taking questions from Sabbatarians...

[Crescentinus]

Hmmm…I did…in post 93 too…and all the previous posts…looks like you are evading…so what is hard about answering the question of your authority?

It is explicit in the Scriptures…as shown by Paul in 'Troas…where he broke bread on the Lord’s day…looks like you are playing blind…and it is not that hard the answer the question on authority?

Or is it you just do want to admit it is Ellen G White and her purported revelations?

Is Bible Light even a Seventh-Day Adventist?

 

[mummato2]

Is Bible Light even a Seventh-Day Adventist?

Absolutely what i was thinking.

How about we all agree to disagree. It is clear each side is convicted in their choice of which day to keep as their “sabbath” and both can point to the bible for support.

Isnt this essentially what Paul was saying in Romans? The day you choose doesnt matter - just so long as you put aside one day to keep as a holy day

 

[pablope]

Absolutely what i was thinking.

How about we all agree to disagree. It is clear each side is convicted in their choice of which day to keep as their “sabbath” and both can point to the bible for support.

Isnt this essentially what Paul was saying in Romans? The day you choose doesnt matter - just so long as you put aside one day to keep as a holy day

Prior to the rebellion of Luther to the Church…all Christians had observed one day of common worship…the Lord’s day…and this continues, even to this day…by mainline protestants. It was the SDA, via the revelations of EGW…that said worship should go back to Saturday. It was her main point to legitimize her claim of being the true church.

And prior to Luther, it was understood by all what the day of worship was…and now 500 yrs later…even the day of worship if disputed

How about we all agree to disagree.

How does this fulfill the exhortation of Paul in Eph 4…

3 Make every effort to keep the unity of the Spirit through the bond of peace. 4 There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called to one hope when you were called; 5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism;

or the Lord’s prayer for unity…in John 17…20 “My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, 21 that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

How can we all be one if everyone is to choose their own Sabbath? Can choose their own path? Can make their own church as to how they want it to be?

 

[Called_out]

The Fourth commandment claims that **Yehowah **created heaven and earth and all that there is, therefore he blessed the 7th day.
The Messiah stated that he came not to change one jot of the law.
He also stated that the most important commandment was to worship his Father Yehowah with all your heart mind and soul. And if we look in Revelation, we are told to worship Yehowah who made heaven and earth. So the fourth commandment stays!!!

Revelation 14:6 KJV
And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,

7 Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come : and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.

 

[shaky]

The question asked was

But, you do bring up an interesting point. Here is what Collosians really says

Col.2
14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

15 And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.

16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:

17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

This is talking about the prophetic feasts which were also Sabbaths (days of rest)
“WHICH WAS A SHADOW OF THINGS TO COME” These Sabbaths were part of the “handwriting of ordinances” That were nailed to the cross. This is not talking of the Sabbath of the fourth commandment.

Romans 14 like Colossians is not talking about the seventh day Sabbath of the fourth commandment, but of Sabbath feasts of the cerimonial law.

With Col 2:16 In the KJV it says ‘‘Or of the Sabbath Days’’…But the Original ‘‘Greek’’ Manuscripts say ‘‘Or of the Sabbath’’
This means the Jewish 7 day Saturday Sabbath!!

If you notice in the KJV…’‘days’’ is written slanted to show the word ‘‘days’’ was added. The Reason why this was done > Is so the reader to also include all the Sabbath feast days along with the Jewish 7 day Saturday sabbath.

Going back to Col 2:14>’‘Blotting out the Handwritings of Ordinances Against Us’’

This Means the WHOLE LAW along with the Ceremonial Law.

To Prove the Point with Cross reference Scripture> Eph 2:15 < Having Abolished in the Flesh the ‘‘ENMITY’’. ‘‘Even the Law of the Commandments’’ Contained in the Ordinaces.

‘‘Making Peace’’]

This is the Whole 10 Commandments along with the Ceremonial Law. [Which was putting the wrath of God against our SIN and our ENIMITY to Him. Eph 2:3]
Rom 4:15…5:20…7:10-11…8:7.

The LAW was given through Moses. GRACE and TRUTH was realised through Jesus Christ. John 1:17]…John 1:14-18< Shows us from his fullness we recieve Grace upon Grace
We are no longer ‘‘UNDER the LAW’’ of Moses. We are under the Law of Christ, under the Law of Grace. under the Law of the Spirit in truth and Power.

Its all about it being substituded to the LAW of LOVE. The everlasting Spirit of the Law. There now should be no enmity between Gentiles/Jews/ and God.> PEACE.

Those who are seeking to be Justified by the Law have Fallen from Grace < Gal 5:14.

You seem to be 1/2 interperting Scriptures and putting yourself back> ‘‘Under the Law’’ of Moses and then Judge others for not doing the Same as you.

With Rom 14:5. What part of ‘‘while another esteemeth everyday alike’’]. do you not understand ?
With Rom 14:1-13 What part of> ‘‘Not Judging others on disputable matters putting stumbling blocks in their way’’] do you not understand ?

 

[shaky]

Prior to the rebellion of Luther to the Church…all Christians had observed one day of common worship…the Lord’s day…and this continues, even to this day…by mainline protestants. It was the SDA, via the revelations of EGW…that said worship should go back to Saturday. It was her main point to legitimize her claim of being the true church.

And prior to Luther, it was understood by all what the day of worship was…and now 500 yrs later…even the day of worship if disputed

How does this fulfill the exhortation of Paul in Eph 4…

3 Make every effort to keep the unity of the Spirit through the bond of peace. 4 There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called to one hope when you were called; 5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism;

or the Lord’s prayer for unity…in John 17…20 “My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, 21 that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

How can we all be one if everyone is to choose their own Sabbath? Can choose their own path? Can make their own church as to how they want it to be?

There was disputes amongst early Christians about Saturday or Sunday Prior to the Catholic Church Establishing SUNDAY as the day of Worship to maintain Unity.

Their is nothing wrong with keeping Sunday as a day of Worship but calling it a ‘‘Sabbath’’ day changed to Sunday could be classed as wrong.

Is it wrong to do any WORK on Sunday ?

I read in scripture that the 3000 early church came together every day to Worship.

 

[PRmerger]

The Fourth commandment claims that **Yehowah **created heaven and earth and all that there is, therefore he blessed the 7th day.
The Messiah stated that he came not to change one jot of the law.
He also stated that the most important commandment was to worship his Father Yehowah with all your heart mind and soul. And if we look in Revelation, we are told to worship Yehowah who made heaven and earth. So the fourth commandment stays!!!

The above is all very Catholic, Called out. The 4th commandment is in the Bible because the Catholic Church discerned that it was part of the Word of God.

You are aware of it because of a religion–the Catholic religion.

 

[Crescentinus]

The above is all very Catholic, Called out. The 4th commandment is in the Bible because the Catholic Church discerned that it was part of the Word of God.

You are aware of it because of a religion–the Catholic religion.

I thought that Called Out is a Sabbatarian in disguise… O:

 

[PRmerger]

I thought that Called Out is a Sabbatarian in disguise… O:

Well, even Sabbatarians can get it right some times–that is, whenever that which they proclaim is consonant with the Truth, they are in union with the Catholic Church.

 

[Crescentinus]

Well, even Sabbatarians can get it right some times–that is, whenever that which they proclaim is consonant with the Truth, they are in union with the Catholic Church.

Hmmmm, seeing as Called Out wasn’t vitriolic about Catholicism, then he/she is not a Seventh-Day Adventist.

 

[shaky]

Ok, I answered this several times before, But let’s give it one more try. If you think that God was only talking to the ethnic Jews in Ex.31 not 21 by the way, then what do you do with Mark 2: 27 And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath:
The two seem incompatable, right? We know or at least we should know that there are no contradictions in the bible. Well, let’s assumne that we know what is meant by man in Mark 2:27 That would mean that we have a faulty understanding of what is meant by Israelites or Jews. Consider Heb8

6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.

7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.

8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:

9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.

10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.

The new covenant is made with the “the house of Israel and with the house of Judah” Wouldn’t that men the Jews? Does that mean that Jesus came only for the Jews? Of coarse not. So again we need to adjust our understanding of what “the house of Israel and with the house of Judah” means. So, let’s look at

Romans 9

4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;

5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.

6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.

8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

“they are not all Israel” What this is saying is all of those that are ethnic Jews are not necessarily children of God John1:12 but the children of the promise are. What does that mean? Well, this is the promise talked about.

Gen12
2 And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing:

3 And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.

This blessing is of coarse Jesus Christ. So, you see when ex.31:13 Speak thou also unto the children of Israel, saying, Verily my sabbaths ye shall keep: for it is a sign between me and you throughout your generations; that ye may know that I am the Lord that doth sanctify you.

The Sabbath has not ended at the cross in fact keeping God’s law is the mark of God’s end time remnant church.

Rev.12
17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Rev.14
12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

What Commandments of God are we under. The Law Given through Moses being UNDER the LAW ?

Or the Commandments of Christ=The Law of Christ who is God. ?

Not one Jot of the Law was abolished untill Christ fulfilled the Law and Nailed it to the Cross. It was ONLY Christ who fulfilled the Law by keeping it perfect being without Sin. All our Sin put on Christ and we are washed in the blood of the Lamb at the Cross. So that we might have the Righteousness of Christ/God. We are Justified and Positionally Sanctified in Christ. ‘‘SAVED’’!!]. We then Grow in Progressive Sanctification.

Romans 8:1-2 Therefore there is no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus. Because through Jesus Christ the ‘‘LAW of the Spirit of Life’’ has set me free from the ‘‘LAW of Sin and Death’’

Where does the Law of Sin and death Come from ?>The 10 Commandments!! How do we know we Sin ? The 10 Commandments!!. What is the Verdict ? ‘‘Death’’. The wages of Sin is death.< Rom 6:23. So is the 10 commandments nailed to the Cross ? Of Course!!. We are set free from it.

The 10 commandments is a testimony of a Ministry of Death. But we have a NEW Covenent!! ‘‘A better One’’] This is the Gospel–The Ministry of Life.

2 Cor 3:6-7 He has made us compedent as New Ministers–Not of the Letter but of the Spirit. For the letter kills. but the Spirit Gives Life. ‘‘Now if the Ministry brought death. Which is engraved in Letters of Stone. Came with Glory’’ etc
Verse 7 ''If you notice ‘‘Which is engraved in letters of Stone’’. The 10 Commandments Kill us. instead of giving us Life.

Also the Children of the Promise Includes OT Saints as well as NT Saints!!

 

[mummato2]

Hmmmm, seeing as Called Out wasn’t vitriolic about Catholicism, then he/she is not a Seventh-Day Adventist.

I walked away from the Catholic church because of closed minded, judgemental people making remarks like this.

I felt a pull to try again and joined these forums hoping to see another side to nasty Catholics who believe they are infallable

This thread has totally changed my thinking to realise i was wrong. The catholic church forget to love one another, support our fellow christian and pray positively

Yes there are some sda’s that believe the catholic church are the whores of babylon amongst other things. Not all sda members are like this.

This one comment alone has made me so angry and embarrassed to think i was considering representing this group

I wont be posting any more on these forums.

I.pray you find a path which leads you to be less judging and more accepting of alternatuve views.

 

[Crescentinus]

I walked away from the Catholic church because of closed minded, judgemental people making remarks like this.

I felt a pull to try again and joined these forums hoping to see another side to nasty Catholics who believe they are infallable

This thread has totally changed my thinking to realise i was wrong. The catholic church forget to love one another, support our fellow christian and pray positively

Yes there are some sda’s that believe the catholic church are the whores of babylon amongst other things. Not all sda members are like this.

This one comment alone has made me so angry and embarrassed to think i was considering representing this group

I wont be posting any more on these forums.

I.pray you find a path which leads you to be less judging and more accepting of alternatuve views.

Wait, what?
Can I not guess things? Is that evil?
Now, it is true that not all SDA members are vitriolic about Catholicism. But, in their debates against Catholics, most tend to show their heavy vitriol. You mad?

 

[PRmerger]

I walked away from the Catholic church because of closed minded, judgemental people making remarks like this.

There is such great irony in people judging others for being judgmental…

 

[johnnyjones]

There was disputes amongst early Christians about Saturday or Sunday Prior to the Catholic Church Establishing SUNDAY as the day of Worship to maintain Unity.

Their is nothing wrong with keeping Sunday as a day of Worship but calling it a ‘‘Sabbath’’ day changed to Sunday could be classed as wrong.

Is it wrong to do any WORK on Sunday ?

I read in scripture that the 3000 early church came together every day to Worship.

If you are becoming a Catholic, read the catechism about the Sabbath before you get too deep into opinion. vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p3s2c1a3.htm

 

[Metamorphoo]

I am really, really amazed at most of the posts I have read on this topic. I am not SDA or a Saturday Sabbatarian (although I often do go to church on Saturday afternoons) … but Lord’s Day advocates, I must tell you that you have not done your homework in defending your position. If I were a juror in a courtroom listening to the two sides present their case, I would say the Saturday Sabbatarians have done a MUCH better job of defending their position from a biblical perspective than the Sunday Lord’s Day advocates have.

The truth of the matter is that early Christians observed BOTH Saturday and Sunday. The Saturday Sabbath observance was done away with by church leaders, well after the close of the NT era.

Jesus NEVER broke the Sabbath, although He did violate the Jewish understanding of what it meant to keep it “holy.” To say that Jesus broke the Sabbath because He could (i.e., because He is Lord of the Sabbath) means that He violated the Law that He came to earth to keep perfectly. If that is the case, His sacrifice on the cross was meaningless. He would have been a Law-breaker, and we would still be dead in our sin.

The whole point of the Sabbath command was about REST … RESToration … wholeness. The original creation was at rest when God finished His original creative work. It was whole. Man was healthy spiritually, emotionally, mentally and physically. God intended for that wholeness to last for all eternity. With the Fall, Man lost his connection to the Source of his wholeness and rest: the Lord.

That is why God commanded Israel to keep the Sabbath: to remember the wholeness that the original creation had … and to look forward to the day when it would be restored in the Eternal Sabbath (the New Creation) through the redemptive work of Christ.

God has designed sleep as the natural means for the body to do its healing/restorative work in tissues. We have been designed by God to NEED rest for our physical/emotional/spiritual well-being! When Jesus healed on the Sabbath, He was fulfilling the SPIRIT of Sabbath: RESToration! As Lord of the Sabbath, He knew the purpose of the Sabbath was for the good of man … and that is why Jesus healed a man’s withered hand … a hand that needed physical RESToration … on the Sabbath.

Ya’ll are missing the point if you focus merely on the day. Look at what the day MEANS. Go beyond the letter of the law (the command to observe the Sabbath) and focus on God’s intent behind giving it.

Jesus rose on a Sunday, but if a Sunday worshipper’s reason for worshipping on Sunday is simply because the resurrection happened to occur on a particular day of the week, you’re missing the big picture. What were the spiritual ramifications of Christ’s resurrection? And why was it significant that His resurrection happened on the particular day that it occurred?

I think that whether you are a Saturday Sabbatarian or a Lord’s Day advocate, both positions are merely flip sides of the same coin. You’re seeing the same thing from different vantage points. I am absolutely convinced that the apostle Paul understood this, and it is critical to understanding the whole of Pauline theology.

 

[PRmerger]

I am really, really amazed at most of the posts I have read on this topic. I am not SDA or a Saturday Sabbatarian (although I often do go to church on Saturday afternoons) … but Lord’s Day advocates, I must tell you that you have not done your homework in defending your position. If I were a juror in a courtroom listening to the two sides present their case, I would say the Saturday Sabbatarians have done a MUCH better job of defending their position from a biblical perspective than the Sunday Lord’s Day advocates have.

This is a nonsensical assessment, for you have already admitted that you do go to church on Saturday afternoons.

You wouldn’t be allowed to be a juror in a courtroom with that type of admission.

In order to be a juror, you have to show no partiality. You, of course, are already partial.

 

[JoaoMachado]

I am really, really amazed at most of the posts I have read on this topic. I am not SDA or a Saturday Sabbatarian (although I often do go to church on Saturday afternoons) … but Lord’s Day advocates, I must tell you that you have not done your homework in defending your position. If I were a juror in a courtroom listening to the two sides present their case, I would say the Saturday Sabbatarians have done a MUCH better job of defending their position from a biblical perspective than the Sunday Lord’s Day advocates have.

The truth of the matter is that early Christians observed BOTH Saturday and Sunday. The Saturday Sabbath observance was done away with by church leaders, well after the close of the NT era.

Jesus NEVER broke the Sabbath, although He did violate the Jewish understanding of what it meant to keep it “holy.” To say that Jesus broke the Sabbath because He could (i.e., because He is Lord of the Sabbath) means that He violated the Law that He came to earth to keep perfectly. If that is the case, His sacrifice on the cross was meaningless. He would have been a Law-breaker, and we would still be dead in our sin.

The whole point of the Sabbath command was about REST … RESToration … wholeness. The original creation was at rest when God finished His original creative work. It was whole. Man was healthy spiritually, emotionally, mentally and physically. God intended for that wholeness to last for all eternity. With the Fall, Man lost his connection to the Source of his wholeness and rest: the Lord.

That is why God commanded Israel to keep the Sabbath: to remember the wholeness that the original creation had … and to look forward to the day when it would be restored in the Eternal Sabbath (the New Creation) through the redemptive work of Christ.

God has designed sleep as the natural means for the body to do its healing/restorative work in tissues. We have been designed by God to NEED rest for our physical/emotional/spiritual well-being! When Jesus healed on the Sabbath, He was fulfilling the SPIRIT of Sabbath: RESToration! As Lord of the Sabbath, He knew the purpose of the Sabbath was for the good of man … and that is why Jesus healed a man’s withered hand … a hand that needed physical RESToration … on the Sabbath.

Ya’ll are missing the point if you focus merely on the day. Look at what the day MEANS. Go beyond the letter of the law (the command to observe the Sabbath) and focus on God’s intent behind giving it.

Jesus rose on a Sunday, but if a Sunday worshipper’s reason for worshipping on Sunday is simply because the resurrection happened to occur on a particular day of the week, you’re missing the big picture. What were the spiritual ramifications of Christ’s resurrection? And why was it significant that His resurrection happened on the particular day that it occurred?

I think that whether you are a Saturday Sabbatarian or a Lord’s Day advocate, both positions are merely flip sides of the same coin. You’re seeing the same thing from different vantage points. I am absolutely convinced that the apostle Paul understood this, and it is critical to understanding the whole of Pauline theology.

Sorry, had to break into this one…The Sabbath was not done away with by the “Church Leaders”, this is an ignorant statement. The Sabbath is still intact and valid for a non-believing ( In Jesus as God) Jew. Metamorphoo, you being non-den Christian, the lack of understanding of a covenant shines through loud and clear. I recommend you read my book… Sundown To Sunday

 

[Metamorphoo]

This is a nonsensical assessment, for you have already admitted that you do go to church on Saturday afternoons.

You wouldn’t be allowed to be a juror in a courtroom with that type of admission.

In order to be a juror, you have to show no partiality. You, of course, are already partial.

Don’t a lot of churches have Saturday late afternoon or evening services, the Catholic Church included?

I also go on Sunday mornings.

 

[PRmerger]

The whole point of the Sabbath command was about REST … RESToration … wholeness. The original creation was at rest when God finished His original creative work. It was whole. Man was healthy spiritually, emotionally, mentally and physically. God intended for that wholeness to last for all eternity. With the Fall, Man lost his connection to the Source of his wholeness and rest: the Lord.

Indeed. This is very Catholic of you to say, Metamorphoo.

The Sabbath is in honor of creation.
The Lord’s Day is in honor of the Resurrection.

That is why God commanded Israel to keep the Sabbath: to remember the wholeness that the original creation had … and to look forward to the day when it would be restored in the Eternal Sabbath (the New Creation) through the redemptive work of Christ.

Exactly.

God has designed sleep as the natural means for the body to do its healing/restorative work in tissues. We have been designed by God to NEED rest for our physical/emotional/spiritual well-being! When Jesus healed on the Sabbath, He was fulfilling the SPIRIT of Sabbath: RESToration! As Lord of the Sabbath, He knew the purpose of the Sabbath was for the good of man … and that is why Jesus healed a man’s withered hand … a hand that needed physical RESToration … on the Sabbath.

Very true.

Ya’ll are missing the point if you focus merely on the day. Look at what the day MEANS. Go beyond the letter of the law (the command to observe the Sabbath) and focus on God’s intent behind giving it.

Preach it, brother!