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Metamorphoo
Guest
I am saying that Church leaders declared the Saturday Sabbath done away with, and that Christians were not to observe it. I stand by my statement.
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PRmerger
Guest
If you admitted in a court of law that you attend worship services on Saturday, you would not be permitted to be a juror.
That’s all I’m saying.
It’s clear that you’re *not *impartial, and thus your juror reference is nonsensical.
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PRmerger
Guest
And there’s nothing wrong with that, Meta.
It’s also Church leaders who declared that the Gospel of Mark was inspired. And you go by what these Church leaders say here…so why not obey this declaration regarding Sunday worship?
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Metamorphoo
Guest
If I only attended Saturday services, I think that would make me biased. I do both, but usually only one or the other in a given weekend. My point was that I didn’t think the Sunday-worshipping advocated presented a strong case for their position. I did not say that a strong case could not be made; I just said that Saturday Sabbatarians did a better job of presenting their perspective.
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PRmerger
Guest
And all I’m saying is that you already started from a biased position.
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Metamorphoo
Guest
I am saying that sometimes that even well-meaning Christians (and Christian leaders) make decisions based on their own prejudices and call it God-ordained. I think there is plenty of evidence (both in the NT and in the centuries afterward) of conflict between Jews and Gentile Christians. Jewish believers became a minority in the Body of Christ very rapidly. I think that in the post-NT era, the Gentile-dominated Church leadership lost its objectivity when it came to rulings that bore directly on Jewish believers in Jesus. There wasn’t anything wrong with a person of Jewish heritage observing the Saturday Sabbath, the biblical festivals, etc. The problem was with Judaizing–i.e., putting pressure on Gentile believers to live as Jews when Christ has accepted them as Gentiles simply by their faith in Him. Judaizers thought that it was the Law that saved them, not Christ.
The Council of Jerusalem (as recorded in Acts 15)–did not mandate that Gentiles become Jewish in order to receive Christ’s salvation. But the Gentile-dominated Church leadership did make rulings that forced Jews who came to faith in Christ to give up their Jewish customs. In essence, Jewish believers were told that they had to become Gentile in order to be received into the Church. That was wrong.
An example of what I am talking about:
Quartodeciman Controversy–Christians (both Jewish and Gentile believers) who observed Christ’s passion/resurrection within its historical and biblical context–the Passover–were ordered not to remember it in that manner–in spite of the fact that apostles John and Philip observed it in that manner. (As an introduction to this conflict, read Eusebius’ Ecclesiastical History: Book 5, ch 23-24. Also read Eusebius’ record of Constantine’s letter to the bishops who were not in attendance at the Council of Nicea. It explained the rationale behind the Council’s decision on the dating of observing Christ’s resurrection.)
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Metamorphoo
Guest
How so???
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PRmerger
Guest
Indeed.
So how is it that you discern when a well-meaning Christian leader has erred, and when he has spoken correctly?
For example, do you believe that these Christian leaders erred in discerning that the Gospel of Mark is inspired?
What criterion do you use to discern whether they erred or were correct in declaring the Gospel of Mark to be theopneustos?
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PRmerger
Guest
Well, if I were an attorney defending the Catholic position, looking for an impartial juror, I would only have to cite this post of yours, from 2008, to show that you have already made your decision regarding the Sabbath vs Sunday issue.
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Metamorphoo
Guest
When a ruling/decision of a Christian leader contradicts the scripture holistically (by that, I mean when the whole counsel of the scriptures on a particular issue is violated), that is a problem. Anyone can have a “pet interpretation” of a verse and twist it to fit their own theology. It is much harder when the entire Bible’s teaching on a subject, or relevant biblical principles, are taken into consideration.
Generally speaking, I do believe that there is greater safety when there is widespread consensus among Christians that an interpretation/understanding is accurate. I think the Gospel of Mark was widely regarded to be inspired by believers, long before a Council formally “declared” it so. Man does not determine what is God-breathed; if God speaks it, it is God-breathed, regardless of whether men recognize it as such. If the Gospel of Mark is divinely inspired (and I believe it is), then it was inspired when it was written, not when a Council a few hundred years later declared it inspired.
I know that Catholics think differently on this matter, but I do not believe that Councils have always made right rulings, for “we all know in part and see in part.” None of us individually … or even corporately … have it all right, in every area.
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PRmerger
Guest
You are saying, “The way we judge whether something is Scripture is by whether it contradicts Scripture”.
I hope you see the problem with this, Meta.
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Metamorphoo
Guest
So you think I am a Saturday Sabbatarian? That post goes through my own journey years ago to understand how Sunday worship reflects the Church’s understanding that Christ’s resurrection was the dawning of a new era: the beginning of the Eternal Sabbath, sometimes referred to as “the Eighth Day” [of creation] in post-NT writings. As I have mentioned before, I am not SDA, a Messianic Jew, or a member of any Sabbatarian group. My church, like many these days, has both Saturday and Sunday services. Our family attends Saturday services about 60-70% of the time–out of preference, not out of conviction.How does that make me prejudiced? It simply means I have understood both sides on the matter. I am okay with Saturday Sabbatarians, too, and I understand why they feel the way they do.
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Metamorphoo
Guest
You are not getting what I am saying …
Your first question to me was how to determine whether church leaders have erred on a matter. Since I had been addressing Council decisions on the place of Jews within the Church, I answered how we determine whether an action of a church leader is in accord with the teachings of the Bible–i.e., the whole counsel of the books that have been regarded as inspired. I wasn’t addressing the process of determining HOW the process of Bible book selection occurred in my answer.
However, I am sure that when the Council did look at the various writings in their decision-making process, they did compare the writings to one another as part of their evaluation process. There would be a common spirituality of inspired books, reflecting their in-common divine authorship.
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PRmerger
Guest
So, then, are you arguing that you rely on the testimony of men?
And, if so, do you believe that these men had the charism of infallibility, or do you believe that they did not receive this gift?
And if the answer is the latter, then how is it that you trust the testimony of fallible men who, by definition, are going to be wrong at some point?
Indeed. This is called Sacred Tradition.
Yes. This is the Catholic position.
Perhaps if you could explain exactly what it is you believe Catholics understand regarding this, that would be helpful.
For I think that you do not understand well what Catholics believe. But I could be wrong.
Then where did the Councils err in the discernment of the Canon of Scripture?
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PRmerger
Guest
No. I take you at your word. You say you are not one. So I accept that.
It merely shows that you have already formed an opinion that the Sabbath as a day of worship is binding upon all Christians.
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PRmerger
Guest
But the underlying principle is this, Meta: you give tacit approval to the authority of men–Church leaders–to declare for you what is* theopneustos* and what is not.
Yet you also seem to reject the authority of these Church leaders to declare something else: Sunday as the day of worship.
Why?
Compared them to what? What was the canon that they used to discern whether a particular text was inspired or not?
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Metamorphoo
Guest
Actually, I’ve done quite a bit of study on the different biblical covenants, as well as studied about ancient suzerain treaties (which were covenants) and covenantal practices from around the globe.
Christians often overlook the fact that the New Covenant was promised to the Jewish people explicitly, and Jeremiah’s prophecy also states what it would take for God to cast off ALL of Israel for their sins (the bottom line is that He won’t do it–see Jer. 31, especially verses 31-32 and 35-37). Jeremiah’s prophecy was grossly distorted by many Gentile Church leaders over the history of Christendom, who said that God had permanently cast off the Jewish people because (most of them) had rejected Christ.
As for the Mosaic Covenant, it is impossible for even the most devout Jewish person to obey a good chunk of that covenant because so much of it is centered around the Temple … which hasn’t stood for nearly 2000 years. Hebrews 8:13 calls the Mosaic Covenant obsolete.
The Mosaic Covenant was replaced by the New Covenant, which was a better covenant. One of the main differences: God’s law would be written on men’s hearts instead of stone tablets.
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stewstew03
Guest
Are you an authority on this issue?
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shaky
Guest
I think i got my wires crossed. I thought Sabbath meant 7 Th Day Saturday Only.
I can understand it would be wrong to work 7 days a week continually without a break. Because when i did that while i was self-employed. I was burning out ! I got less work done. When i had 1 or 2 days off for a rest. The days i did work i got more done.
Does Sabbath count Only as a Rest day ?
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Metamorphoo
Guest
If you are asking if I have a doctoral degree in which I have written on the biblical covenants, the answer is no. But I am by no means ignorant on the subject. I have taken coursework on the topic, participated in Bible studies on the biblical covenant, and read a fair amount on my own.
So my question to you is how my “lack of understanding of a covenant shines through loud and clear”?
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