M
Metamorphoo
Guest
Sorry, Stew … I shoulda paid more attention to whom I was speaking. I realize that you did not make that statement.
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PRmerger
Guest
Hiya, Meta! I see that you are still online. Could you take a moment and address my questions? Thanks.
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Metamorphoo
Guest
Sorry it’s taken awhile for me to respond. I’m not online every day.
Regarding Sunday worship:
If I rejected the idea of Sunday worship, I would be going to church only on Saturdays. The problem I have is that leaders forbade Saturday Sabbath observance for Christians. Romans 14:5 clearly allows for differing views on what constitutes a “holy” day–some will regard one day above another, while others think all days are the same. If the Word of God says a person should act according to conscience on the matter, why is it acceptable when leaders issue a decree that violates the conscience of Saturday Sabbatarians?
**
Regarding the decision on the canon:**
There was no “official” canon at the time the NT was being written. Even for the Jews, there was not yet an “official” canon of the OT writings until after the time of Christ. That does not imply, however, that the Jews didn’t possess any writings widely regarded as inspired. They did, most notably, “the Law and the Prophets.”
In Acts 17, the Berean Jews were commended for searching the OT “scriptures” to discern whether the gospel of Christ should be accepted. Both the Bereans and Paul acknowledged the existence of divinely inspired writings before any Church council declared them so.
In view of the lack of an “official” canon set by a council, how did these people come to regard these books as divinely inspired? Obviously there had to be some general consensus based upon certain standards. Who discerned what those standards were? Obviously men did. But man’s decree (or lack thereof) does not determine whether something is actually inspired. If God is the author, it is inspired, whether man recognizes it as such or not.
But did a *specific group of people *formally set the standards prior to the convening of a council which establishedf the “official” canon of the OT? I am unaware of any records in existence that can be presented to prove/disprove the idea.
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PRmerger
Guest
Oh, no need to apologize. I just wanted to make sure the post was not missed.
Because the Scriptures also clearly state that men have been given the authority to bind and loose. Christian men. Christian bishops, to be specific.
And if these Christian bishops have enough authority to bind you to declare the Gospel of Mark to be inspired…then why do you deny them this authority to declare Sunday to be the day of worship?
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PRmerger
Guest
Right.
Indeed.
And how did they know this?
Was it through the handing down, orally, of the Word of God?
YES!!! :extrahappy: :bounce:
This is what is called…
SACRED TRADITION!
Yes. This is the Catholic paradigm you are proposing.
And it is a very astute explication of Sacred Tradition.
And I am not aware of anyone proposing that a specific group of people formally set the standards prior to a council.
The point is that you give tacit authority to men–Christian men. Christian bishops–to declare for you what is theopneustos.
So why do you deny them the authority to declare for you some other doctrines/teachings/practices?
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shaky
Guest
We read in scripture>At the time of Peter and Paul etc being fathers and bishops of the Church of Christ. When it came to Jews and Gentiles coming into the Church. The Apostle Paul had worship day EVERY DAY and allowed for Jewish christians to have Saturday sabbath as worship day. He also allowed them keeping their Holy Feast days and allowed their Abstaining from certain Food which for them was unclean because they were taught the Law of Moses. Scripture shows when Paul meet up with Jews HE ‘‘became as a Jew’’ under the Law so he might Gain them for Christ. Paul even had Timothy ‘‘circumcised’’ who was with HimOh, no need to apologize. I just wanted to make sure the post was not missed.
Because the Scriptures also clearly state that men have been given the authority to bind and loose. Christian men. Christian bishops, to be specific.
And if these Christian bishops have enough authority to bind you to declare the Gospel of Mark to be inspired…then why do you deny them this authority to declare Sunday to be the day of worship?
But when Paul was with Gentiles without Law of Moses He ‘‘became as a Gentile’’ without Law So he might Gain them to Christ. [Paul was under the Law of Christ Under the Under the Law of Grace under the Law of the Spirit.] Paul Did not Circumcise Titus.
In Rom 14:1-14 Paul as we know was a JEW does show not to put a stumbling block in the way to either Gentile or Jew. Paul who had better Light then his newly converted Jewish brethren eat gentile food with gentiles because to him nothing was unclean. Paul Perhaps did see Sunday the Lords day can be used as a GOOD day for Sabbath worship day for newly converted gentiles. Early history seems to show the Church fathers bishops who perhaps were GENTILE had Sunday to be their Sabbath worship day for gentile laity.
Also it seems over time the Church developed Holy Saints days and feasts in exchange for Jewish holy feast days.
But now with perhaps the Gentile fathers bishops who LATER decided to change things making ONLY ‘‘Sunday’’ as the sabbath day of worship for both Jew and Gentile does seem to be putting a stumbling block in the way for a JEW who is coming to Christ.
How Can we expect a Jew to give up his Saturday Sabbath day ?
How Can we expect a Jew to give up his holy feast days ?
Do we expect a Jew to start eating Pork ?
How would the Apostle Paul respond to all this today ?
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Sintclair
Guest
God said to the people of Israel:
2 I am the Lord your God, the one who brought you out of Egypt where you were slaves.
3 Do not worship any god except me.
4 Do not make idols that look like anything in the sky or on earth or in the ocean under the earth. 5 Don’t bow down and worship idols. I am the Lord your God, and I demand all your love. If you reject me, I will punish your families for three or four generations. 6 But if you love me and obey my laws, I will be kind to your families for thousands of generations.
7 Do not misuse my name. I am the Lord your God, and I will punish anyone who misuses my name.
8 Remember that the Sabbath Day belongs to me. 9 You have six days when you can do your work, 10 but the seventh day of each week belongs to me, your God. No one is to work on that day—not you, your children, your slaves, your animals, or the foreigners who live in your towns. 11 In six days I made the sky, the earth, the oceans, and everything in them, but on the seventh day I rested. That’s why I made the Sabbath a special day that belongs to me.
12 Respect your father and your mother, and you will live a long time in the land I am giving you.
13 Do not murder.
14 Be faithful in marriage.
15 Do not steal.
16 Do not tell lies about others.
17 Do not want anything that belongs to someone else. Don’t want anyone’s house, wife or husband, slaves, oxen, donkeys or anything else.
2 I am the Lord your God, the one who brought you out of Egypt where you were slaves.
3 Do not worship any god except me.
4 Do not make idols that look like anything in the sky or on earth or in the ocean under the earth. 5 Don’t bow down and worship idols. I am the Lord your God, and I demand all your love. If you reject me, I will punish your families for three or four generations. 6 But if you love me and obey my laws, I will be kind to your families for thousands of generations.
7 Do not misuse my name. I am the Lord your God, and I will punish anyone who misuses my name.
8 Remember that the Sabbath Day belongs to me. 9 You have six days when you can do your work, 10 but the seventh day of each week belongs to me, your God. No one is to work on that day—not you, your children, your slaves, your animals, or the foreigners who live in your towns. 11 In six days I made the sky, the earth, the oceans, and everything in them, but on the seventh day I rested. That’s why I made the Sabbath a special day that belongs to me.
12 Respect your father and your mother, and you will live a long time in the land I am giving you.
13 Do not murder.
14 Be faithful in marriage.
15 Do not steal.
16 Do not tell lies about others.
17 Do not want anything that belongs to someone else. Don’t want anyone’s house, wife or husband, slaves, oxen, donkeys or anything else.
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PRmerger
Guest
Amen!
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PRmerger
Guest
No, shaky. The Gentile father bishops never made Sunday the sabbath day of worship.
The sabbath has always been Saturday.
The Church celebrates the Lord’s Day on Sunday, from the moment of Pentecost.
The same way we expect a Jew to declare, “Jesus is Lord!”
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ruralgeek
Guest
Why do you call it a Jewish Sabbath? There were no Jews during Creation week. Jews didn’t get started for at least 2500 years after creation when Jacob was named Israel.
According to Christ Himself, the Sabbath was made for man [anthropos = mankind] not man for the Sabbath.
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Hiswillbedone
Guest
The Sabbath was given to man as a gift way back in the Garden of Eden. It was a special day that was set aside for them to spend with God alone. God reminds the Israelites of this gift when He gives them the Ten Commandments and tells them to Remember the Sabbath day…. When someone says that He doesn’t need to keep the Sabbath day he is saying that He doesn’t need to obey God. Jesus Himself kept the Sabbath and even in His death He kept it. He lay in the tomb resting on the Sabbath day. Jesus kept that Sabbath because it was righteousness. It was good and right to do. If a Christian is not keeping the Sabbath day it is to his own hurt. If God was going to change something so important than He definitely would have made sure that we understood that He was changing the Sabbath day. But because God is the same yesterday, today, and forever He did not change or abolish the Sabbath.
Jeremiah 31:31 “The day is coming,” says the Lord, “when I will make a new covenant with the people of Israel and Judah. 32 This covenant will not be like the one I made with their ancestors when I took them by the hand and brought them out of the land of Egypt. They broke that covenant, though I loved them as a husband loves his wife,” says the Lord. 33 “But this is the new covenant I will make with the people of Israel on that day,” says the Lord. “I will put my instructions deep within them, and I will write them on their hearts. I will be their God, and they will be my people. 34 And they will not need to teach their neighbors, nor will they need to teach their relatives, saying, ‘You should know the Lord.’ For everyone, from the least to the greatest, will know me already,” says the Lord. “And I will forgive their wickedness, and I will never again remember their sins.”
The whole point of the new covenant was not to do away with the commandments, but to put them within us so that we could actually keep them.
Just another point… when we become children of God through the blood of the Lamb who was sacrificed for us during Passover and are set free from the slavery of sin and are headed for the promised land of heaven and are made heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ we too are Jewish (Israel) but we are able to do God’s will because He lives in us to enable us.
We worship Him by keeping His commandments. We do so by the power (Holy Spirit) He has placed in us to do so.
STOP believing the lie.
“If you love me, keep my commandments.” 1 John 14:15
Jeremiah 31:31 “The day is coming,” says the Lord, “when I will make a new covenant with the people of Israel and Judah. 32 This covenant will not be like the one I made with their ancestors when I took them by the hand and brought them out of the land of Egypt. They broke that covenant, though I loved them as a husband loves his wife,” says the Lord. 33 “But this is the new covenant I will make with the people of Israel on that day,” says the Lord. “I will put my instructions deep within them, and I will write them on their hearts. I will be their God, and they will be my people. 34 And they will not need to teach their neighbors, nor will they need to teach their relatives, saying, ‘You should know the Lord.’ For everyone, from the least to the greatest, will know me already,” says the Lord. “And I will forgive their wickedness, and I will never again remember their sins.”
The whole point of the new covenant was not to do away with the commandments, but to put them within us so that we could actually keep them.
Just another point… when we become children of God through the blood of the Lamb who was sacrificed for us during Passover and are set free from the slavery of sin and are headed for the promised land of heaven and are made heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ we too are Jewish (Israel) but we are able to do God’s will because He lives in us to enable us.
We worship Him by keeping His commandments. We do so by the power (Holy Spirit) He has placed in us to do so.
STOP believing the lie.
“If you love me, keep my commandments.” 1 John 14:15
H
Hiswillbedone
Guest
Consider what Satan did in the Garden. He tempted Adam and Eve to disobey God and told them that it would be ok. “You will not surely die.”
Now, I ask all you Catholics out there…Are Sabbath keepers being tempted and deceived into keeping God’s commandment or are you being tempted and deceived into not keeping God’s commandment. It can’t be both.
Jesus says…“If you love me, keep my commandments.” John 14:15
and Paul says…"…but keeping the commandments of God is what matters." 1 Cor. 7:19
Now, I ask all you Catholics out there…Are Sabbath keepers being tempted and deceived into keeping God’s commandment or are you being tempted and deceived into not keeping God’s commandment. It can’t be both.
Jesus says…“If you love me, keep my commandments.” John 14:15
and Paul says…"…but keeping the commandments of God is what matters." 1 Cor. 7:19
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Porknpie
Guest
Hiswilbedone -
Did you read the thread from the beginning? I think your questions have already been answered. Please do so
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tqualey
Guest
Hi, Mummato2,
Here’s a thought: Christ gave Peter full authority to make whatever changes he felt were necessary (Matt 16). And, you know, Peter did just that! When Christ was on earth with His Apostles - there was no position known as a Deacon. Here in Acts 6 we see that changes are being made: veritasbible.com/drb/compare/haydock/Acts_of_the_Apostles_6
Christ did a lot of things while He was on earth - and some of them are recorded in the New Testament. One of the things He did not do, however, was to give the Apostles as ‘Policy and Procedure Manual’ on how they were to govern Christ’s Church. He did something much better - He promised the Holy Spirit would provide His Church with all Truth (John 16) veritasbible.com/drb/compare/haydock/John_16
So, as I see it, either you believe Christ’s Word, or you believe the words and traditions of men (and women like Ellen White). If you believe Christ’s Word then His Church (and, that would be the Catholic Church) was given the power to change what was determined to be necessary. Sunday was the day for celebrating the Resurrection of Christ - He Who brought us the New Covenant - and this is the day that was recognized as the day to honor the Lord. The Jews are still with the Old Covenant - but, Christ has moved on - and we are following Christ.
God bless
Here’s a thought: Christ gave Peter full authority to make whatever changes he felt were necessary (Matt 16). And, you know, Peter did just that! When Christ was on earth with His Apostles - there was no position known as a Deacon. Here in Acts 6 we see that changes are being made: veritasbible.com/drb/compare/haydock/Acts_of_the_Apostles_6
Christ did a lot of things while He was on earth - and some of them are recorded in the New Testament. One of the things He did not do, however, was to give the Apostles as ‘Policy and Procedure Manual’ on how they were to govern Christ’s Church. He did something much better - He promised the Holy Spirit would provide His Church with all Truth (John 16) veritasbible.com/drb/compare/haydock/John_16
So, as I see it, either you believe Christ’s Word, or you believe the words and traditions of men (and women like Ellen White). If you believe Christ’s Word then His Church (and, that would be the Catholic Church) was given the power to change what was determined to be necessary. Sunday was the day for celebrating the Resurrection of Christ - He Who brought us the New Covenant - and this is the day that was recognized as the day to honor the Lord. The Jews are still with the Old Covenant - but, Christ has moved on - and we are following Christ.
God bless
You sound very similar to me!
I was raised “catholic” by a mother who didn’t believe in God and a father who was the epitome of “submarine catholic” (only popped up when he was in crisis)…I didn’t have a belief for many years and then when I had my kids, something clicked and really forced me to question and read more.
Now I very much identify as Christian - but am still so torn on the whole issue of denomination. In my honest opinion, from my upbringing in the Catholic church, I struggle to support the whole premise but because of the familiarity of it - seems to be where I am the most comfortable for the times I actually go to church. My son starts Kindy next year and we’ve chosen the Catholic system for schooling but that’s as far as it is for the moment.
I am a teacher who works in the SDA system - and I find it fascinating but in the sense that I just can’t believe how misguided the faith is BUT how convicted their followers are!
I’ve tried doing some bible studies with them and struggled desperately with non biblical based doctrine that Ellen White has rattled off (The Great Controversy is my worst enemy) but I just can’t get sense through their heads.
The one topic that actually made me stop, think and actually question my own faith was Sabbath keeping.
I’ve drawn the conclusion that while the bible should be the primary source of information and reflection, it really is just a tiny sliver of the historical context of the time of the New and Old testaments. Because of that, and because it’s the perspective of different authors - too much room can be left to pick a line and twist it to support a doctrine.
A good example is that of whether the soul is judged on death or goes into “soul sleep” until a universal judgement day. I could pick a handful of scriptural examples that support both theories - who is right?
Anyway, I’m getting off course here
Back to the topic of Sabbath or Sunday - yes I agree that through faith comes the desire to want to please Jesus and God. Isn’t that the very essence of man? to want to please those you hold dear? I guess my confusion gets hung up on the minute details. We are human after all - not one of us will reach perfection in our lives, we aren’t Jesus. This is where I think a genuine love of Jesus, attempt at living an honourable life and not deliberately sin and think repentance is your “out” comes into the ultimate way to live.
I feel sorry for those who think their works will win them salvation. I really believe it is your hearts condition in life and what you’ve done with that faith that will allow us to live eternally with God. And it’s that faith and God’s grace that makes us WANT to do right by what the bible tells us…
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PRmerger
Guest
Because it began with the Jews. And was given to Jews. And is observed by Jews.
True, this. :yup:
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PRmerger
Guest
We take God’s word in its entirety, not in isolation, Hiswill.
And God’s word, in its entirety, tells us that the Lord’s Day is the fulfillment of the Sabbath.
And, as such, we observe the Lord’s Day. Not the Sabbath.
S
shaky
Guest
I do see from scriptures that the Apostles and other disciples of Christ observe/celebrate the special day of the Lord the ‘‘Lord’s’’ Supper on the ‘‘Lords day’’. And this was done on the first day of the week every week.No, shaky. The Gentile father bishops never made Sunday the sabbath day of worship.
The sabbath has always been Saturday.
The Church celebrates the Lord’s Day on Sunday, from the moment of Pentecost.
The same way we expect a Jew to declare, “Jesus is Lord!”
Both Jews and Gentiles of Christ must have Observed/celebrated this first day Sunday to declare Jesus as Lord. 1 Cor 11:20…1 Cor 16:2…Acts 20:7…John was in the Spirit on the Lord’s day Rev 1:10.
I would have thought as-long as a Jew of Christ observes/celebrates the Lord’s day Sunday He should also be allowed to observe/celebrate Saturday Sabbath and his Jewish holy days along with the practise to abstain from certain type foods.
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tqualey
Guest
Hi, Mummato2,
Interesting.
So, when Christ said He was founding His Church on Peter (Matt 16) and not His ‘churches’ what does that tell you?
The way you have explained this ‘non-denominational’ identification, it seems that you have taken on the job of being your own ‘pope’. You decide the scripture that applies, and it real meaning, you take on the various traditions of men as that appeal to you and finally, you will judge others for failing to be as independent as you claim to be.
While I would have phrased it a bit differently (but, it would have probably been labeled as ‘arrogant’) it is this ‘pick and chose’ approach that Christ clearly condemned. He condemned it in the Pharisees for their multiplication of the various law observances that they required (and then carved out exemptions for themselves) and Christ condemns it in us for failing to believe in Him and what He says for us to do (John 6).
The history of Protestantiism (beginning in the 16th Century) is that each individual made the determination what part of Christ’s commands they would believe and which they would observe. Nothing in scripture endorses such an approach. Touring through these various religious groups each week must surely bring out the fact that none of them agree with each other on everything save one: the Catholic Church is wrong.
While you may not have liked what was said, your explanation honestly falls far short of the direction Christ is leading. And, I think that - rather then some percepton of ‘arrogance’ is the real take home message.
God bless
God bless
Interesting.
So, when Christ said He was founding His Church on Peter (Matt 16) and not His ‘churches’ what does that tell you?
The way you have explained this ‘non-denominational’ identification, it seems that you have taken on the job of being your own ‘pope’. You decide the scripture that applies, and it real meaning, you take on the various traditions of men as that appeal to you and finally, you will judge others for failing to be as independent as you claim to be.
While I would have phrased it a bit differently (but, it would have probably been labeled as ‘arrogant’) it is this ‘pick and chose’ approach that Christ clearly condemned. He condemned it in the Pharisees for their multiplication of the various law observances that they required (and then carved out exemptions for themselves) and Christ condemns it in us for failing to believe in Him and what He says for us to do (John 6).
The history of Protestantiism (beginning in the 16th Century) is that each individual made the determination what part of Christ’s commands they would believe and which they would observe. Nothing in scripture endorses such an approach. Touring through these various religious groups each week must surely bring out the fact that none of them agree with each other on everything save one: the Catholic Church is wrong.
While you may not have liked what was said, your explanation honestly falls far short of the direction Christ is leading. And, I think that - rather then some percepton of ‘arrogance’ is the real take home message.
God bless
God bless
T
tqualey
Guest
Hi, Hiswillbedone,
You have presented a number of valid ideas. But, you stopped short of the goal.
There needs to be a distinction made between what God did in the OT and how His Son fulfilled the Law in the NT. Take a look at Matthew 16 - you will note that Christ founed His Chruch - He did not found another Temple or Synagogue - and one must wonder why there was such a radical change being made.
Later on - in Matthew 16 - Christ gives Peter the power to bind and lose ANYTHING and was then given the keys of the kingdom to signify Peter’s leadership role (note there is no evidence of 11 other sets of keys being haded out at a later time).
The Apostles recognized Christ’s victory over Death on that First Easter Sunday and the tremendous miracle of the First Pentecost Sunday. Please note, when Christ gave Peter the power to bind and lose, Christ did not then say, “…but, keep the sabbath on Saturday…”. We can’t really claim to be following scripture if we simply interpret whatever we do not like into something we do like.
God bless
You have presented a number of valid ideas. But, you stopped short of the goal.
There needs to be a distinction made between what God did in the OT and how His Son fulfilled the Law in the NT. Take a look at Matthew 16 - you will note that Christ founed His Chruch - He did not found another Temple or Synagogue - and one must wonder why there was such a radical change being made.
Later on - in Matthew 16 - Christ gives Peter the power to bind and lose ANYTHING and was then given the keys of the kingdom to signify Peter’s leadership role (note there is no evidence of 11 other sets of keys being haded out at a later time).
The Apostles recognized Christ’s victory over Death on that First Easter Sunday and the tremendous miracle of the First Pentecost Sunday. Please note, when Christ gave Peter the power to bind and lose, Christ did not then say, “…but, keep the sabbath on Saturday…”. We can’t really claim to be following scripture if we simply interpret whatever we do not like into something we do like.
God bless
T
tqualey
Guest
Hi, PRmerger,
Excellent post
Ah, but you have some that really did worry me …
The little picture you put at the bottom of your post … I am afraid my wife may see it… 
God bless
Excellent post
Ah, but you have some that really did worry me …
The little picture you put at the bottom of your post … I am afraid my wife may see it… God bless
- Status