Talking In Church

[Brendan_64]

The sign of peace and what is and isn’t acceptable has been debated on CAF many, many times.

My opinion, growing up and seeing older couples kiss at the sign of peace was one of the best witnesses of a strong Catholic marriage that a young person could ever have. And they didn’t even have to say a word, but I knew I wanted a marriage some day like they displayed to all around them.

I really do think that this is quite an American thing. I’m from the UK, but our parish has quite a few Americans living in it. Perhaps it is your view of individualism and by this I include your view of individual family, but it is very apparent that the American families tend to consider themselves going to Mass ‘as a family’ and worshiping primarily ‘as a family’, whereas with most of the rest of us we see ourselves worshiping as a community, and our individual families are not so important while we’re in Church.

To me it does look very strange to see individual families holding hands during the Our Father, and it comes across as quite exclusive and separates the family from the rest of the congregation (joining hands during the Our Father in an any case is not common in the UK, but seems to be popular with Americans). I’ve never seen anyone actually kiss in Mass, but to me this would be an act that says, “We are a special unit, separate from others around us”.

The love we show towards others at the sign of peace is not meant to be romantic, emotional attachment, but is meant to be the love for our fellow man, regardless of who he is, or how well we know him. We are meant to love him unconditionally, like Christ loves us.

 

[Brendan_64]

Nope, he isn’t married to anyone else. Just me. Um, it is. We are married. In the eyes of the Church, that is a good thing.

Yes it is a good thing, but the love that is meant to be demonstrated at the sign of peace is the unconditional love for our fellow man. It is not meant to be an opportunity to demonstrate romantic attachment, or display a hierarchy of ‘love’. We are all brothers and sisters when we worship at Mass.

So, tell me. Do you sit with your family?

Yes I do. It’s a small church, so there are usually about 250 members of my family there, all sitting together. And we really are a family there.

 

[ajecphotos]

You will always get people talking etc in church.

Best thing to do is ignore it and talk to God yourself. Have a conversation with Our Lord who deserves your utmost attention.

 

[pollycarp]

I guess then I have been “making out” in church too.

Yep, when my husband attends Mass with me, he holds my hand. He might even rest his hand on my leg. And sometimes, when he puts his arm around me, he moves his hand up and down. :bigyikes: And when we come to the sign of peace, he will actually kiss me and give me a hug. :hug3:

If that offends anyone, tough luck.

When this was in front of me I found it distracting and kind of adolescents-at-the-drive in kind of thing. But that was the traditional Mass. More sacredness there.

 

[Mrs_Sally]

Heather, you have a tough row to hoe. :hug1: I recommend that you repost this as a separate thread in the “Family” forum where you will get lots of great answers and support.

Since it is here though, here’s my response.

Continue to bring your daughter to Mass as often as you can. If she doesn’t have any learning/developmental delays, she should be able to sit quietly for an hour. There are other places where that is expected of 10 year olds - school, live theater, etc. Ask her to avoid getting into giggle-fests because Mass is important to you and she is distracting to you and others. That is a reasonable request for a normal 10 year old (even one who hasn’t regularly gone to church).

Talk to your priest abut her situation. Are you allowed to have her baptised, receive Holy Communion, etc.? If so, ask about a missed sacraments class. That way she’d be in with other children in her similar situation. Check to make sure the DRE and instructor are comfortable with working with a child who has her background. There are many agnostics in the world - not too many satinists. You might also want the priest to talk to your daughter directly. You want her to think of clergy, CCD, Mass, everything about the Church, as normal and comfortable - not weird and a place to just tolerate for one hour a week.

In scripture (John, chapter 6), we read that many followers of Christ had a very hard time with the idea that the Eucharist was His real flesh and blood (and soul and divinity). She’s not alone in her confusion. There is a lot written about it. Ask your priest or the DRE/RCIA director for recommendations of books and other resources. You can learn first and then help your daughter better understand.

It may not be something either of you can fully wrap your head around. But think of ways we express love - telling a baby “I’m going to eat you up, you are so cute!” Or even lovers. We are lovers of Christ and He loves us. We want to be a part of Him, and by giving us the Eucharist, He has made that possible. When we receive communion, we are receiving Christ into us. And we become a part of Him. That’s why we need to be prepared each time we receive.

I will be praying for you both. :hug1:

I have the same issue with people talking during mass, only the issue is with my daughter. She treats it as social hour and no matter what I do to try to correct it, even trying to seat us away from others toward the back and warning her before we walk in that while we are inside she MUST be respectful of others and reverent in the presence of God, she always ends up catching the eye of another child nearby and the giggles and games ensue.

Last Sunday, I resorted to physically holding her hands down and scolding her (quietly, in her ear) because the man next to us was shooting us dirty looks and she was disrupting me and others from prayer. The mother of two little boys in front of us did nothing to turn them around and make them sit still and stop playing.

I don’t want my daughter (10 years old) to feel as if going to mass is some sort of prelude to punishment, but I don’t know how to get her to settle down for that short hour (which to her feels like an eternity). After last Sunday’s incident, I apologized to the mother in front of us for my daughter getting her boys (who were younger, 3 and 5) wound up and she just brushed it off with “Oh, it’s ok, they’re always like that.” I felt defeated and briefly wished children were not allowed to attend mass.

It should be noted that we are relatively new in this parish (7 months) and still do not really know anyone beyond the church secretary. I have been a single mother since 2005 and her father, who has shared custody, has tried to raise her at first as a Satanist (which he is - I only found that out after we were married as he married me under false pretense), and then as an agnostic. I was finally allowed to start bringing her to church last year and it’s been a real test for everyone involved. Also come to find out, the cry room is very strictly restricted to infants and toddlers so she is too old to go there.

Another incident… Her first time going to mass with me, she had asked me what they were doing during the Eucharist. I briefly explained it to her after we were dismissed and, while still in the pew waiting to leave, her eyes grew wide and she shouted out, “CANNIBALS!!!” I turned 16 shades of red and was mortified. We didn’t go back for a month after that

I guess my followup question after the OP’s observation is how can I instill better graces into my child so that she is not a disruption to everyone around us for that one hour a week?

Desperately,
Heather

 

[Brendan_64]

. If she doesn’t have any learning/developmental delays, she should be able to sit quietly for an hour. There are other places where that is expected of 10 year olds - school, live theater, etc.

Ten-year-olds sitting quietly for an hour at school? Out of my class of 32, I can think of only 5 of them who are capable of that. It might have been the case 3 decades ago, but it doesn’t happen nowadays, despite school rules, sanctions, or anything else. The notion that kids sit quietly during lessons

However when we take them to Mass at the local church, then entire school sits reverently without chatting. They are better behaved than the general congregation, but when they’re with their parents on a Sunday its a very different story with many of them.

 

[babochka]

I guess then I have been “making out” in church too.

Yep, when my husband attends Mass with me, he holds my hand. He might even rest his hand on my leg. And sometimes, when he puts his arm around me, he moves his hand up and down. :bigyikes: And when we come to the sign of peace, he will actually kiss me and give me a hug. :hug3:

If that offends anyone, tough luck.

I’m guilty as well. Sometimes, I do the same to him. Often, it is my gentle, non-verbal way of getting his attention to remind him that the child sitting next to him is standing on her head and I can’t reach her because I have one on my lap and another squished in between us. Sometimes, I’m non-verbally communicating a message that I have to take said squished child to the bathroom, or to ask him to do it. Other times, it is just that natural closeness of two people who are one flesh.

 

[Lormar]

Ten-year-olds sitting quietly for an hour at school? Out of my class of 32, I can think of only 5 of them who are capable of that. It might have been the case 3 decades ago, but it doesn’t happen nowadays, despite school rules, sanctions, or anything else. The notion that kids sit quietly during lessons

However when we take them to Mass at the local church, then entire school sits reverently without chatting. They are better behaved than the general congregation, but when they’re with their parents on a Sunday its a very different story with many of them.

I had to read your first paragraph twice to make sure I read it the first time correctly.

In your opinion, why is it that a class of ten year olds cannot manage to keep still? I think back to when I was in grammar school with the good and strict Sisters. We had no choice but to sit still. By the age of ten, we were already mature enough to do so without the threat of punishment.

What has changed today? My question is a genuine one and not being asked in any kind of sarcastic or demeaning manner.

 

[Mrs_Sally]

Ten-year-olds sitting quietly for an hour at school? Out of my class of 32, I can think of only 5 of them who are capable of that. It might have been the case 3 decades ago, but it doesn’t happen nowadays, despite school rules, sanctions, or anything else. The notion that kids sit quietly during lessons

However when we take them to Mass at the local church, then entire school sits reverently without chatting. They are better behaved than the general congregation, but when they’re with their parents on a Sunday its a very different story with many of them.

But your students at least aren’t inciting riot with the kids sitting in the row ahead of them I hope?

I know it is possible for an ordinary 10 year old (even one who is unchurched) to behave well enough for an hour that her mother doesn’t have to be in tears over her behavior.

Another tpi is to sit closer to the front, rather than the back. She will be able to follow what is gong on better and their will be fewer little kids to giggle with up front.

 

[Brandall]

I guess then I have been “making out” in church too.

Yep, when my husband attends Mass with me, he holds my hand. He might even rest his hand on my leg. And sometimes, when he puts his arm around me, he moves his hand up and down. :bigyikes: And when we come to the sign of peace, he will actually kiss me and give me a hug. :hug3:

If that offends anyone, tough luck.

Oh the horror!

God never intended for you to have affection for your spouse!

Seriously though, I’m the only one in my family that goes to a Catholic Mass and I envy the couples and families a bit as they do greet each other with such affection. I’m not saying they shouldn’t, I’m just a bit envious. Kind of like when my wife that attends the local mega church without me and is jealous of the couples there.

The sign of peace is a lovely part of the mass. The Catholic Church can be quite unfriendly and that is one of the few times when there is any interaction with others. I understand the sanctuary is a holy place and Jesus actually resides in the tabernacle. I understand that the sanctuary is a place of reverend worship but I do wish the church had a friendlier atmosphere. I grew up in a Baptist church and you can barely get in the front door of one of those without someone introducing themselves and engaging you in conversation. There are many denominations that are friendlier than the Catholics.

Beyond that, I’m fifty two. I don’t remember in my youth, me or my peers, being that well behaved unless we were in the presence of our parents. I’m not sure that I want to see youth as afraid of their parents the way I was afraid of my father. Later in life, I loved my father dearly but I was afraid of him until I was 16. It wasn’t a good situation and he admitted he did things wrongly though he did them for the right reasons.

About all you can do if you are distracted during mass and you can’t manage to zone it out is mention it to the priest. Perhaps he, or they will start to make a mention in mass regarding proper behavior. I know at the church I attend, the priest started commenting, during announcements about his dislike at those that got communion and went straight out the back door and skipped the rest of the service, it didn’t stop but it has cut down.

Those of you offended at families holding hands, hugging or spouses giving a quick kiss, your lives must be charmed if you’ve got the energy to be that offended by a families affection for each other. I’m pretty sure such glorifies god rather than offends him.

 

[babochka]

But your students at least aren’t inciting riot with the kids sitting in the row ahead of them I hope?

.

Have you spent much time in a 5th grade classroom lately? In some places, this is exactly what happens.

 

[babochka]

And does he kiss and hug the other members of the congregation around him during the sign of peace? I always thought that the purpose of giving the sign of peace was to demonstrate your respect, goodwill and communion with those who worship in communion with you. I don’t think it was intended to enable people to demonstrate shows of particular personal love and affection towards one person over another.

In some cultures, the “kiss of peace” is literally a kiss, and not at all inappropriate. Certainly, American culture is more casual and affectionate than British culture, and this would effect how we exchange peace. In many parishes, hugs are the sign of peace that is most frequently exchanged. In others, a mere nod suffices.

 

[babochka]

I really do think that this is quite an American thing. I’m from the UK, but our parish has quite a few Americans living in it. Perhaps it is your view of individualism and by this I include your view of individual family, but it is very apparent that the American families tend to consider themselves going to Mass ‘as a family’ and worshiping primarily ‘as a family’, whereas with most of the rest of us we see ourselves worshiping as a community, and our individual families are not so important while we’re in Church.

I don’t know if it an American thing, or just not a British/European thing.

I have a British friend who has been very surprised at how much time Americans spend together as a family. In his upbringing, families rarely came together. Children dined separately from parents. In the evenings, the family did not spend time together in a common room. Rather, the men would go off in one direction, the women in another, and the children in yet another. To me, that seems very odd.

To me it does look very strange to see individual families holding hands during the Our Father, and it comes across as quite exclusive and separates the family from the rest of the congregation (joining hands during the Our Father in an any case is not common in the UK, but seems to be popular with Americans). I’ve never seen anyone actually kiss in Mass, but to me this would be an act that says, “We are a special unit, separate from others around us”.

I’ve never seen individual families holding hands. It tends to be the whole parish or not at all. As I mentioned in a previous post, however, I do tend to hold hands with my husband in church, or put my arm around my children, etc. This isn’t to exclude others, it is just my normal way of interacting with them. Particularly in the case of my children, it keeps me physically connected to them and improves their behavior.

The love we show towards others at the sign of peace is not meant to be romantic, emotional attachment, but is meant to be the love for our fellow man, regardless of who he is, or how well we know him. We are meant to love him unconditionally, like Christ loves us.

Alright then, hugs all around!

Seriously, though, this is a cultural thing, and it is not just Americans who show affection/regard in a more physical manner than northern European.

 

[zab]

In some cultures, the “kiss of peace” is literally a kiss, and not at all inappropriate. Certainly, American culture is more casual and affectionate than British culture, and this would effect how we exchange peace. In many parishes, hugs are the sign of peace that is most frequently exchanged. In others, a mere nod suffices.

We were never given the proper gesture from from the beginning when this practice was started. I remember when it seemed awkward to shake hands with my husband but that is the gesture we used until the pastor at one time told the congregation that it was OK to kiss your spouse at the Kiss or Sign of Peace. He said that it was not natural to shake hands with your spouse. It has now come to my understanding that we all should be making the same gesture with everyone because this is a liturgical action not a time to have a friendly hello with those around you. But there has yet to be the proper gesture given to us and that makes it difficult to properly do the liturgical practice with so many different gestures going on. So until the instruction comes to us for what that one gesture is, I will continue to respond to my husbands gesture with a kiss, I will extend my hand to others, and responde with a handshake to those extend their hand, and a nod and wave to those who nod and wave. As for the huggers…I make sure to first extend my hand .

 

[PatriceA]

I really do think that this is quite an American thing. I’m from the UK, but our parish has quite a few Americans living in it. Perhaps it is your view of individualism and by this I include your view of individual family, but it is very apparent that the American families tend to consider themselves going to Mass ‘as a family’ and worshiping primarily ‘as a family’, whereas with most of the rest of us we see ourselves worshiping as a community, and our individual families are not so important while we’re in Church.

To me it does look very strange to see individual families holding hands during the Our Father, and it comes across as quite exclusive and separates the family from the rest of the congregation (joining hands during the Our Father in an any case is not common in the UK, but seems to be popular with Americans). I’ve never seen anyone actually kiss in Mass, but to me this would be an act that says, “We are a special unit, separate from others around us”.

The love we show towards others at the sign of peace is not meant to be romantic, emotional attachment, but is meant to be the love for our fellow man, regardless of who he is, or how well we know him. We are meant to love him unconditionally, like Christ loves us.

For the record, I never said we hold hands during the Our Father.

And perhaps it is an “American” thing. But I’ve had complete strangers give me a kiss on the cheek at the sign of peace and I’d certainly extend the kisses to everyone around me if I thought they were receptive to the idea. Not everyone is, or should be. I try to clue in on what type of gesture or sign my fellow Catholics want to exchange when it comes to that point in the Mass. Not everyone wants to shake hands, or kiss or hug, some physically can’t and for some that are victims of sexual abuse, they emotionally can’t exchange a hand shake and I don’t presume that everyone has to do exactly what I expect them to do.

 

[ClintonG11]

I really dislike talking in Church. I feel like it’s a sign of not truly understanding the Real Presence in the Eucharist.

 

[Brendan_64]

I have a British friend who has been very surprised at how much time Americans spend together as a family. In his upbringing, families rarely came together. Children dined separately from parents. In the evenings, the family did not spend time together in a common room. Rather, the men would go off in one direction, the women in another, and the children in yet another. To me, that seems very odd.

I would expect that your friend is from a very wealthy family. That sounds a bit like how the British aristocracy behave.

Most UK families do not have the luxury of separate dining rooms (or even a dining room at all). Houses in the UK are much smaller than the average in the USA, (probably due to our much more densely populated nation). It would not be possible for families to rarely come together in an average house that consists a living room, a kitchen, a bathroom and 3 bedrooms.

My point was that it just seems to me that American families in our parish seem to regard themselves as a separate unit when they go to Mass, and they seem to view going to Mass as ‘going as a family unit’, rather than ‘going as part of the community’.

The clear commitment to family is very nice and to be applauded, but there does seem to be a lot less commitment demonstrated to community. It sometimes comes across as a ‘this is our family who we support and care for’ rather than reaching out and joining as part of a community who we support and care for. I’m not sure that Mass is the place for the demonstrating care and love for one member of our brethren over another.

 

[Brendan_64]

But there has yet to be the proper gesture given to us and that makes it difficult to properly do the liturgical practice with so many different gestures going on. So until the instruction comes to us for what that one gesture is, I will continue to respond to my husbands gesture with a kiss, I will extend my hand to others, and responde with a handshake to those extend their hand, and a nod and wave to those who nod and wave.

In the UK, at least in every Mass I have ever been in, it is pretty clear that the appropriate gesture is a friendly, but respectful handshake. You occasionally get the odd person hugging a member of their family, but it’s not the norm and generally viewed as being not quite the right thing to do. When priests choose to walk down the aisle during the sign of peace, this is the sign that they give. A priest wouldn’t start kissing and hugging people during the sign of peace, so why should the congregation.

It’s part of the liturgy, it’s not a short break in the liturgy to allow people to have a ‘love-in’ with those closest to them. What next? Shouting across the Church to your friends and giving them a ‘thumbs up’ sign.

It’s part of the liturgy, it should be done with respect, reverence, and appropriate restraint.

 

[Ohana]

I have never seen anyone making out either, and hope I never do. Ihave seen people hug each other, as in people supporting others who are in difficulty of some kind. Perhaps comforting a grieving person or such activity may look like making out.

I think the talking in church has increased since the Blessed Sacrament is often not directly present,and instead is often reserved in an adjoining chapel. I kind of understand this as a means of safety for the Blessed Sacrament, and to free the church for other activity such as teaching, etc.

I think it is appropriate to bow or genuflect in the direction of the Chapel, and to refrain from excessive talking. Greeting others would seem to be the exception. I was taught to kneel and say a prayer when entering the church and continue to do that.

With regard to cell phones, turning the the ringer off is important! I do know that some people have prayer sites on their phones (I have one myself) where the scripture of the day, LOTH, prayers, litanies etc can be accessed. Sometimes that is what people are doing with their cell phones, not texting. I am capable of a baleful stare when that is not the case!

 

[PatriceA]

I have never seen anyone making out either, and hope I never do. Ihave seen people hug each other, as in people supporting others who are in difficulty of some kind. Perhaps comforting a grieving person or such activity may look like making out.

I think the talking in church has increased since the Blessed Sacrament is often not directly present,and instead is often reserved in an adjoining chapel. I kind of understand this as a means of safety for the Blessed Sacrament, and to free the church for other activity such as teaching, etc.

I think it is appropriate to bow or genuflect in the direction of the Chapel, and to refrain from excessive talking. Greeting others would seem to be the exception. I was taught to kneel and say a prayer when entering the church and continue to do that.

With regard to cell phones, turning the the ringer off is important! I do know that some people have prayer sites on their phones (I have one myself) where the scripture of the day, LOTH, prayers, litanies etc can be accessed. Sometimes that is what people are doing with their cell phones, not texting. I am capable of a baleful stare when that is not the case!

I have the missal on my phone and use it during Mass. Once the readings are done, I put the phone away.