Talking to Muslims

[Eden]

Not wanting to repeat myself:

So please don’t make this argument again in another few weeks.

Apparently, you didn’t read the article, the additional hadiths and suras, or this:

Some Muslims are embarrassed by verse 5:51 and have gone to elaborate lengths to modify its intent by interpreting the word ‘friend’ as “guardian” or “protector” - which are just two of several legitimate translations of the Arabic word. According to these apologists, the verse is referring to a Muslim’s allegiance to a non-Muslim government (which is not all that comforting either).

Modern apologists such as Jamal Badawi try to cloud the straightforward interpretation of verse 5:51 by pointing out that Muslims are allowed to take non-Muslims as marriage partners, thus implying friendship.

But, in fact, only Muslim men are allowed to marry outside the faith. The women they marry relinquish control over their own lives, even to the extent that they cannot raise their own children in their own faith. All children must be raised Muslim. The non-Muslim woman also agrees to a lifetime of sexual servitude, and may be beaten** if she does not submit.**

This certainly doesn’t sound like friendship to the rest of us. If your local Muslim cheerleader tries to pretend otherwise, then simply ask if a non-Muslim man may enter into this sort of “friendship” with a Muslim woman… then sit back and enjoy watching the backpedaling.

On the whole, Islam is very clear in teaching that there is no equality between believers and unbelievers, and hence no basis for a relationship of peers. Those who do not profess Muhammad are intended to exist in subjugation to those who do, then spend eternity in Hell. This does not preclude Muslims from acting friendly toward others, of course, but this does not constitute friendship as it is generally understood in the modern world.

 

[Abbi]

Yeek… OK thanks. Does anyone know a good way to explain how God could have a son?

Oh, and maybe a muslim, or someone who knows about the Islamic faith, could tell me whether its true that Islam teaches that it is appropriate for husbands to beat their wives if they have misbehaved? …I found that kinda hard to swallow.

 

[Montalban]

Yeek… OK thanks. Does anyone know a good way to explain how God could have a son?

Something about him being ‘all-powerful’, perhaps?

Oh, and maybe a muslim, or someone who knows about the Islamic faith, could tell me whether its true that Islam teaches that it is appropriate for husbands to beat their wives if they have misbehaved? …I found that kinda hard to swallow.

Here’s two Islamic experts (second one is in next post)

Islamic Voice
Does a wife have the right to refuse sex with her husband?

Q. If at a particular time, a lady has no desire for sex with her husband, but he insists for it, what is her right of refusal in this context?

Abdul Wahabs

A. If a husband expresses his desire for sexual intercourse with his wife, and asks her to fulfill his need, then she should fulfill her husband’s desire, and she has no right to refuse him or deprive him of his need (unless of course if she is undergoing her monthly menstruation period or is down with illness).

Islam encourages and insists on chastity and fidelity. Islam prohibits and condemns illicit sexual relations, extra-marital affairs, pre-marriage sex, fornication, adultery, prostitution, pornography and promiscuity. It is for this reason that a wife is bound to fulfill her husband’s sexual desires so as to prevent him from straying.

Narrated Abu Huraira
Allah’s Apostle said, “If a husband calls his wife to his bed (i.e. to have sexual relations) and she refuses and causes him to sleep in anger, the angels will curse her till morning.”
(Sahih Al-Bukhari Vol.4 Hadith No.460 & Sahih Muslim Vol.2 Hadith No.3368)

Narrated Abu Huraira
The Messenger of Allah (swt) said: By Him in whose hand is my life, when a man calls his wife to his bed, and she does not respond, the One Who is in
the heaven is displeased with her until he (her husband) is pleased with her.
(Sahih Muslim Vol.2 Hadith No.3367)

Narrated Talq ibn Ali
Allah’s Messenger (Pbuh) said, “When a man calls his wife to satisfy his desire she must go to him even if she is occupied at the oven.”
(Al-Tirmidhi Hadith No.1160 & Ibn Ma’jah Hadith No.4165)

From all the above-mentioned Ahadith, it is Wajib upon the wife to fulfill the desire of her husband whenever he wishes.

If the relationship between the husband and the wife is truly based on Islamic principles, in which both of them treat each other with love, affection, kindness, fulfilling all Islamic desires and settling all matters with mutual agreement and understanding, the question of the wife refusing the sexual desire of the husband does not arise. Nor does the question arise of the husband being insistent or getting perturbed at her not wanting to have sex.

Allah (swt) says in the Qur’an in Surah Rum, chapter 30, verse no. 21:
“And among His signs is this that He created for you mates from among yourselves that you may dwell in tranquility with them and He has put love and mercy between your (hearts); verily in that are Signs for those who reflect.”

If on certain rare occasions, the husband shows a desire for sexual intercourse with his wife, and for some genuine reason the wife shows a hesitation (not refusal), then if possible, the husband can be understanding and voluntarily and happily give indication for postponement!

Allah (swt) says in the Qur’an, in Surah Baqara, chapter 2, verse no 187:
“They (your wives) are your garments. And you are their garments.”
Here, because of the strong bond between the husband and the wife, if the husband is not displeased or angry, the angels will not curse the wife and neither will she displease the Almighty. And Allah knows the best.

islamicvoice.com/february.2003/religion.htm

 

[Montalban]

QUERIES ON ISLAM
Does a wife have the right to refuse sex with her husband ?

Q5. If at a particular time, a lady has no desire for sex with her husband, but he insists for it, what is her right of refusal in this context ?

Abdul Wahab

A5. If a husband expresses his desire for sexual intercourse with his wife, and asks her to fulfill his need, then she should fulfill her husband’s desire, and she has no right to refuse him or deprive him of his need (unless of course if she is undergoing her monthly menstruation period or is down with illness.

Islam encourages and insists on chastity and fidelity. Islam prohibits and condemn illicit sexual relations, extra-maritial affairs, pre-marriage sex, fornication, adultery, prostitution, pornography and promiscuity. It is for this reason that a wife is bound to fulfill her husband’s sexual desires so as to prevent him form straying.

Narrarted Abu Huraira
Allah’s Apostle (Pbuh) said, " If a husband calls his wife to his bed (i.e. to have sexual relations) and she refuses and causes him to sleep in
anger, the angels will curse her till morning." (Sahih Al-Bukhari Vol. 4 Hadith No. 460 & Sahih Muslim Vol. 2 Hadith No. 3368)

Narrated Abu Huraira
The Messenger of Allah (swt) said: By him in whose hand is my life, when a man calls his wife to his bed, and she does not respond, the One Who is in the heaven is displeased with her untill he (her husband) is pleased with her. (Sahih Muslim Vol. 2 Hadith No. 3367)

Narrated Taiq ibn Ali
Allah’s Messenger (Pbuh) said, " When a man calls his wife to satisfy his desire she must go to him even if she is occupied at the oven." (Al Tirmidhi Hadith No. 1160 & Ibn Ma’jah Hadith No. 4165)

From all the above mentioned Ahadith, it is Wajib upon the wife to fulfill the desire of her husband whenever he wishes. If the relationship between the husband and the wife is truly based on Islamic principles, in which both of them treat each other with love, affection, kindness, fulfilling all Islamic desires and settling all matters with mutual agreement and understanding, the question of the wife refusing the sexual desire of the husband does not arise. Nor does the question arise of the husband being insistent or getting perturbed at her not wanting to have sex.

Allah (swt) says in the Qur’an in Surah Rum, Chapter 30, verse no. 21:
" And among His signs is this that He created for you mates from among yourselves that you may dwell in tranquility with them and He has put love and mercy between your (hearts); verily in that are Signs for those who reflect."

If on certain rare occasions, the husband shows a desire for sexual intercourse with his wife, and for some genuine reason the wife shows a hesitation (not refusal), then it is possible, the husband can be understanding and voluntarily and happily give indication for postponement!

Allah (swt) says in the Qur’an, in Surah Baqara, chapter 2, verse no. 187:
“They (your wives) are your garments. And you are their garments.”

Here, because of the strong bond between the husband and the wife, if the husband is not displeased or angry, the angels will not curse his wife and neither will she displease the Almighty. And Allah knows the best.
irf.net/irf/dtp/dawah_tech/ques5.htm

 

[Montalban]

Didn’t I make a post directed at you just a few weeks ago showing that these verses (5:51 particularly) don’t mean Muslims aren’t allowed to be friends with Christians and Jews?

And I just posted evidence from Islamic experts saying you should not have CLOSE friends with Christians and Jews.

It’s not saying ‘don’t befreiend Jews’

It’s in fact saying "Only befriend those you think you can convert’, and others you shouldn’t have as close friends.

 

[Booklover]

Posted by Kadaveri:

The Qur’an isn’t talking about a personal friendship here, it’s basically telling Muslims not to have Christians and Jews dictate our faith to us.

This has to be one of the lamest excuses I’ve heard yet! Why would we dictate to you what to believe?? It’s Muslims that try to force their beliefs down other peoples’ throats.

You’re using “taqqiya”, the right to lie to the unbelievers that Muhammad gave you in order to “protect” Islam or to spread it!

Vickie

 

[Booklover]

Apparently, you didn’t read the article, the additional hadiths and suras, or this:

Some Muslims are embarrassed by verse 5:51 and have gone to elaborate lengths to modify its intent by interpreting the word ‘friend’ as “guardian” or “protector” - which are just two of several legitimate translations of the Arabic word. According to these apologists, the verse is referring to a Muslim’s allegiance to a non-Muslim government (which is not all that comforting either).

Modern apologists such as Jamal Badawi try to cloud the straightforward interpretation of verse 5:51 by pointing out that Muslims are allowed to take non-Muslims as marriage partners, thus implying friendship.

But, in fact, only Muslim men are allowed to marry outside the faith. The women they marry relinquish control over their own lives, even to the extent that they cannot raise their own children in their own faith. All children must be raised Muslim. The non-Muslim woman also agrees to a lifetime of sexual servitude, and may be beaten** if she does not submit.**

This certainly doesn’t sound like friendship to the rest of us. If your local Muslim cheerleader tries to pretend otherwise, then simply ask if a non-Muslim man may enter into this sort of “friendship” with a Muslim woman… then sit back and enjoy watching the backpedaling.

On the whole, Islam is very clear in teaching that there is no equality between believers and unbelievers, and hence no basis for a relationship of peers. Those who do not profess Muhammad are intended to exist in subjugation to those who do, then spend eternity in Hell. This does not preclude Muslims from acting friendly toward others, of course, but this does not constitute friendship as it is generally understood in the modern world.

Excellent post! It’s time that Muslims realize that we are not taken in by their tactics of obfuscation!

Vickie

 

[Kadaveri]

Didn’t I also make a post directed at *you *Booklover explaining what Taqiyya is? Admittingly this was a few months ago so you may have forgotten, so for now at least read the Wikipedia article on it for a brief introduction. Most people have enough healthy skepticism to not be convinced by someone screaming ‘LIAR!’ everytime they come across an unfavourable exegesis.

I’ve been studying these verses under scholars for over 2 years, Eden. With all due respect I know what they mean far better than some cut+paste article (actually more like a rant) you found on an anti-Islamic site. You can’t surely believe many Christian/Jewish women are going to agree to a life of sexual-servitude can you? Try reading THIS charter Muhammad (saaw) made concerning Muslim-Christian relations (including marriage) for starters. Depicting Muslims as heartless scum won’t convince most people that them being allowed to marry Christian and Jewish women doesn’t contradict the claim that they’re forbidden to be friendly with non-Muslims.

But regardless, I’ve made my point which I did not intend to debate anyone over since it’s simple fact, end of. Take it or leave it, but I’m out of this thread.

Peace.

 

[exoflare]

Kadaveri,

You forgot to mention how only Muslim MALES can marry a non-Muslim. Care to tell us why…? The whole marriage thing actually confirms Booklover’s point more than it does yours, when you look at it in its entirety.

 

[exoflare]

Oops, I forgot… you’re out of this thread. How convenient.

 

[paarsurrey]

HI

I still have to request my Cathollic friends to respond to my post # 5 on this thread. The request is repeated below, anybody to answer in a peaceful mood , not in angry mood, please.

Originally Posted by KofC660
As for the aspects of the Faith that are difficult to explain, such as the Trinity, and the Begotten Son of God, do your best, but always remind him that they are Mysteries of Faith, and are not well understood by anyone - even the Apostles were confused, and it shows in the Gospels

.

Paarsurrey’s request:

Hi

Could you please enumerate all those mysteries of Catholic Faith (with references from authenticated sources, say OTBible) that the Catholics find difficult to explain?

The list should be conclusive, with no room for any addition subsequently. May be I could explain them or any other non-Catholic member here to help the Catholics as a friendly gesture. I respect your faith and I am an open mind.

Thanks

 

[Montalban]

HI

I still have to request my Cathollic friends to respond to my post # 5 on this thread. The request is repeated below, anybody to answer in a peaceful mood , not in angry mood, please.

Typical of Moslems is an indignant feeling that they’re ignored whilst they don’t play by the same rules.

You’ve ignroed countless of my posts!

 

[Montalban]

Didn’t I also make a post directed at *you *Booklover explaining what Taqiyya is?

Don’t you realise you’ve been told!!!

There’s no debate. A moslem has spoken on the issue, that is enough!

However…here’s an example from the Hadith of Muhammad allowing a lie… where Muhammad allowed a man to use a falsity in order to kill someone…

Volume 5, Book 59, Number 369:

Narrated Jabir bin 'Abdullah:

Allah’s Apostle said, “Who is willing to kill Ka’b bin Al-Ashraf who has hurt Allah and His Apostle?” Thereupon Muhammad bin Maslama got up saying, “O Allah’s Apostle! Would you like that I kill him?” The Prophet said, “Yes,” Muhammad bin Maslama said, "Then allow me to say a (false) thing (i.e. to deceive Kab). "The Prophet said, “You may say it.” Then Muhammad bin Maslama went to Kab and said, “That man (i.e. Muhammad demands Sadaqa (i.e. Zakat) from us, and he has troubled us, and I have come to borrow something from you.” On that, Kab said, “By Allah, you will get tired of him!” Muhammad bin Maslama said, “Now as we have followed him, we do not want to leave him unless and until we see how his end is going to be. Now we want you to lend us a camel load or two of food.” (Some difference between narrators about a camel load or two.) Kab said, “Yes, (I will lend you), but you should mortgage something to me.” Muhammad bin Mas-lama and his companion said, “What do you want?” Ka’b replied, “Mortgage your women to me.” They said, “How can we mortgage our women to you and you are the most handsome of the 'Arabs?” Ka’b said, “Then mortgage your sons to me.” They said, “How can we mortgage our sons to you? Later they would be abused by the people’s saying that so-and-so has been mortgaged for a camel load of food. That would cause us great disgrace, but we will mortgage our arms to you.” Muhammad bin Maslama and his companion promised Kab that Muhammad would return to him. He came to Kab at night along with Kab’s foster brother, Abu Na’ila. Kab invited them to come into his fort, and then he went down to them. His wife asked him, “Where are you going at this time?” Kab replied, “None but Muhammad bin Maslama and my (foster) brother Abu Na’ila have come.” His wife said, “I hear a voice as if dropping blood is from him, Ka’b said. “They are none but my brother Muhammad bin Maslama and my foster brother Abu Naila. A generous man should respond to a call at night even if invited to be killed.” Muhammad bin Maslama went with two men. (Some narrators mention the men as 'Abu bin Jabr. Al Harith bin Aus and Abbad bin Bishr). So Muhammad bin Maslama went in together with two men, and sail to them, “When Ka’b comes, I will touch his hair and smell it, and when you see that I have got hold of his head, strip him. I will let you smell his head.” Kab bin Al-Ashraf came down to them wrapped in his clothes, and diffusing perfume. Muhammad bin Maslama said. " have never smelt a better scent than this. Ka’b replied. “I have got the best 'Arab women who know how to use the high class of perfume.” Muhammad bin Maslama requested Ka’b “Will you allow me to smell your head?” Ka’b said, “Yes.” Muhammad smelt it and made his companions smell it as well. Then he requested Ka’b again, “Will you let me (smell your head)?” Ka’b said, “Yes.” When Muhammad got a strong hold of him, he said (to his companions), “Get at him!” So they killed him and went to the Prophet and informed him. (Abu Rafi) was killed after Ka’b bin Al-Ashraf.”
usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/bukhari/059.sbt.html#005.059.369