Talks over with SSPX?

[GaryTaylor]

I’m still optimistic…it was just last week the Holy Father invoked the BVM to provide some divine over-watch in this year of faith and the upcoming synod. Scripture shows us that Divine Providence will confound some and enlighten others to accomplish what it wants…let’s keep praying for a favorable ruling.

I agree.

 

[Mrs_Sally]

catholicnewsagency.com/news/archbishop-muller-stresses-hope-as-sspx-talks-hit-impasse/

Hopeful news.

 

[Timothysis]

If you dont think that the SSPX could do some good in the Church then I guess it isnt only the SSPX that struggle with pride and accusatons that contribute to disunity. Perhaps they are not so different from us faithful Catholics.

How many of us “faithful Catholics” have severed full communion with the pope and the Church for the past 20 years waiting to negotiate a return? How much good can one priestly society do whose bishops were excommunicated for nearly 20 years and whose priests are suspended and lack faculties to administer the sacraments, yet choose to do so anyway in disobedience to the pope and Canon Law?

This isn’t about “hatred” against anyone; it is about reality. There are many, many other groups who have always been faithful and obedient to the pope and the Church, yet we never hear a word about how they are going to “save” Catholicism. Why is it that this one particular group - who, by the way, have some very far out things going on within their circles by one particular bishop and many “members” - is constantly being held up as the standard for all Catholics? I have a feeling that if they didn’t celebrate the Extraordinary Form of the Mass, they would have been forgotten years ago.

 

[Moore11]

How many of us “faithful Catholics” have severed full communion with the pope and the Church for the past 20 years waiting to negotiate a return? How much good can one priestly society do whose bishops were excommunicated for nearly 20 years and whose priests are suspended and lack faculties to administer the sacraments, yet choose to do so anyway in disobedience to the pope and Canon Law?

This isn’t about “hatred” against anyone; it is about reality. There are many, many other groups who have always been faithful and obedient to the pope and the Church, yet we never hear a word about how they are going to “save” Catholicism. Why is it that this one particular group - who, by the way, have some very far out things going on within their circles by one particular bishop and many “members” - is constantly being held up as the standard for all Catholics? I have a feeling that if they didn’t celebrate the Extraordinary Form of the Mass, they would have been forgotten years ago.

Every time we sin we are not being faithful to God and his Church. “Faithful” Catholics will vote for a pro death president. At every single Mass at my parish there are abuses that are not “faithful” at all.
You can’t have it both ways: either they are only 500 priests who can’t help anything or they are 500 priests that can be unbelievably disruptive and disobedient causing a schism.
The reason I know they are not insignificant is because of the vitriol and hatred some seem to have.
What we must do is take the passion and knowledge of the SSPX and apply that to our own Church. in my diocese the SSPX chapels would greatly shake up a sleepy diocese stuck in the 70s. But as it is, outside the fold they are nothing but a clanging drum. All noise, no help.

Why not the hatred and vitriol against Eastern Orthodox? Would their clergy be treated in the same way. Or how about the liberal wing of the Church? Granted, teh SSPX do themselves more harm by putting themselves outside the Church, but dont those liberals really do the same thing?

 

[Timothysis]

You can’t have it both ways: either they are only 500 priests who can’t help anything or they are 500 priests that can be unbelievably disruptive and disobedient causing a schism.

It has nothing to do with having it both ways. The sspx are a priestly society, so even if they were reconciled and all 500 priests came along they would still have a tiny impact. The bishops are the princes of the Church, the supreme figure and the head of liturgy in the diocese. What makes anyone think that the sspx can just move into a diocese and “take over?” What makes anyone think that the sspx will be able to start issuing orders to the bishops?

What we must do is take the passion and knowledge of the SSPX and apply that to our own Church. in my diocese the SSPX chapels would greatly shake up a sleepy diocese stuck in the 70s. But as it is, outside the fold they are nothing but a clanging drum. All noise, no help.

Once again, how can the sspx “shake up a sleepy diocese?” They are a priestly society, not diocesan priests. Hardly anyone would have anything to do with them in the normal course of things if they were reconciled. In my town there has been a sspx chapel for years. How much impact does it have on the vast majority of those in the diocese? Zero. Outside of “traditionalists” circles, at least 99 out of 100 people couldn’t tell you a thing about the sspx.

Why not the hatred and vitriol against Eastern Orthodox? Would their clergy be treated in the same way. Or how about the liberal wing of the Church? Granted, teh SSPX do themselves more harm by putting themselves outside the Church, but dont those liberals really do the same thing?

Hatred doesn’t have anything to do with it. My question is why do people think the sspx are the answer for the Church when there are dozens if not hundreds of groups and societies within the Church doing their business everyday?

 

[Baelor]

“Faithful” Catholics will vote for a pro death president. At every single Mass at my parish there are abuses that are not “faithful” at all.

That is not every Mass. No one is talking about Catholics who are not in line with the Church. The choice is not SSPX or Womyn Priestesses.

What we must do is take the passion and knowledge of the SSPX and apply that to our own Church.

Their passion is misplaced, much like that of the radical progressives. Clearly, they do not have much knowledge, otherwise they would accept Vatican II.

 

[ProVobis]

How many of us “faithful Catholics” have severed full communion with the pope and the Church for the past 20 years waiting to negotiate a return? How much good can one priestly society do whose bishops were excommunicated for nearly 20 years and whose priests are suspended and lack faculties to administer the sacraments, yet choose to do so anyway in disobedience to the pope and Canon Law?

For the record, it’s closer to 40 years, which is at least a full generation ago. The emphasis is so much on the 1988 excommunications (which have been lifted BTW) that one forgets (or has no knowledge) that the order was legitimately formed in 1970 and/but their priests and bishops have never known the state of not being under suspension.

 

[Melchior_1]

For the record, it’s closer to 40 years, which is at least a full generation ago. The emphasis is so much on the 1988 excommunications (which have been lifted BTW) that one forgets (or has no knowledge) that the order was legitimately formed in 1970 and/but their priests and bishops have never known the state of not being under suspension.

Even this isn’t exactly true. They never got officially recognized as a Society of Apostolic Life during that time, as His Grace tried to bypass the Diocesan level first and went straight to Rome. They only made it to the first stage.

Ironically, it took getting his entire group suspended for them to get what his original goal was; now they are considered a Society of Apostolic Life.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

The SSPX are greatly disliked by some/many Catholics because they are a living rebuke to those who are content with the status quo of the Church after the 1960’s.

Would it be fair to say that there are many Catholics today who would be much happier to attend an ‘ecumenical service’ than set foot in an SSPX chapel?

Hmm, so you see into others thoughts and souls?

Maybe it has to do with a dislike of disobedience.

 

[ProVobis]

Even this isn’t exactly true. They never got officially recognized as a Society of Apostolic Life during that time, as His Grace tried to bypass the Diocesan level first and went straight to Rome. They only made it to the first stage.

Ironically, it took getting his entire group suspended for them to get what his original goal was; now they are considered a Society of Apostolic Life.

Okay, but my point was that someone who has been born into or raised in whatever state can’t be held totally responsible for it, just like many of the present day Protestants. I forgot the name of this principle, which I believe Br. JR once stated in this regard.

 

[Mrs_Sally]

Okay, but my point was that someone who has been born into or raised in whatever state can’t be held totally responsible for it, just like many of the present day Protestants. I forgot the name of this principle, which I believe Br. JR once stated in this regard.

Yes I’ve heard this too. But I think it takes more than one generation for this principle to take affect. After all someone born soon after 1970 is also almost 40 and should be able to read all the same things we do. And the developments since the excommunications were lifted have happened in this person’s adulthood.

 

[ProVobis]

Yes I’ve heard this too. But I think it takes more than one generation for this principle to take affect. After all someone born soon after 1970 is also almost 40 and should be able to read all the same things we do. And the developments since the excommunications were lifted have happened in this person’s adulthood.

I’m not so sure. If what you say is true, then the majority of Protestants should also know about the “same things we do,” yet we don’t call them heretics and the like. Or we shouldn’t anyway. Some of the FSSPX priests are under 40, have only attended FSSPX Masses and catechism classes in their lives and have been taught by traditional Catholic methods. Should they be held to the same standards as all other Catholics?

 

[fpt]

And if the encyclical of Benedict XVI about the catholic Faith was the solution of interpreting of the Council of Vatican the Second. And if, inside this papal document, there were many answers to the questions of SSPX. Now, the Pope is writing his" thought " on Faith, that will be published in 2013, very soon.

Perhaps, the official document of Pope with the ordinary magisterium or the extraordinary magisterium, or both, in order to stop the theological debate on:

Liberty of religion (religious liberty);
Liberty de cult;
Liberty of conscience;
True oecumenism;
True inter religious dialogue;
True liturgy;
True discipline;
The concept of collegiality of bishop with Pope;
etc…

With the catholic definitions, the catholic acceptions, the catholic senses, the catholic interpretations…etc.

 

[TrueLight]

catholicnewsagency.com/news/archbishop-muller-stresses-hope-as-sspx-talks-hit-impasse/

Hopeful news.

This is more hopeful. It sounds to me more like the conditions set in the earlier talks.

 

[Moore11]

It has nothing to do with having it both ways. The sspx are a priestly society, so even if they were reconciled and all 500 priests came along they would still have a tiny impact. The bishops are the princes of the Church, the supreme figure and the head of liturgy in the diocese. What makes anyone think that the sspx can just move into a diocese and “take over?” What makes anyone think that the sspx will be able to start issuing orders to the bishops?

Once again, how can the sspx “shake up a sleepy diocese?” They are a priestly society, not diocesan priests. Hardly anyone would have anything to do with them in the normal course of things if they were reconciled. In my town there has been a sspx chapel for years. How much impact does it have on the vast majority of those in the diocese? Zero. Outside of “traditionalists” circles, at least 99 out of 100 people couldn’t tell you a thing about the sspx.

Hatred doesn’t have anything to do with it. My question is why do people think the sspx are the answer for the Church when there are dozens if not hundreds of groups and societies within the Church doing their business everyday?

In my diocees we can not have the EF. It would shake up our diocese if there was an EF Mass within an hour of 20 parishes.

500 priests is nothing to shake a stick at. It was less than that that did so much damage with the scandals.

My only point is that I live in a place where the SSPX could do a lot of good. I wish they could do that good within the Church because outside of it they can do no good at all. Only harm. It is the SSPX’s fault that they are not in the Church. We can all agree on that. What I dont understand is all the absolute disdain and hatred for people that we should be praying for and who’s hands consecrate our Lords Body. Again, no one would be allowed to speak this way about the Eastern Orthodox but with the SSPX it is open season. I just see a lot of heart hardening with this group. Sad. And such a double standard. But it has been that way since I joined so I guess I should not be surprised. I would like to see more compassion from all sides.

See this thread for an example:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=699097

 

[TrueLight]

In my diocees we can not have the EF. It would shake up our diocese if there was an EF Mass within an hour of 20 parishes.

500 priests is nothing to shake a stick at. It was less than that that did so much damage with the scandals.

My only point is that I live in a place where the SSPX could do a lot of good. I wish they could do that good within the Church because outside of it they can do no good at all. Only harm. It is the SSPX’s fault that they are not in the Church. We can all agree on that. What I dont understand is all the absolute disdain and hatred for people that we should be praying for and who’s hands consecrate our Lords Body. Again, no one would be allowed to speak this way about the Eastern Orthodox but with the SSPX it is open season. I just see a lot of heart hardening with this group. Sad. And such a double standard. But it has been that way since I joined so I guess I should not be surprised. I would like to see more compassion from all sides.

See this thread for an example:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=699097

I never saw this thread, but what a testament to his faith for that young man to stay so calm in the midst of the jibes.

 

[Timothysis]

In my diocees we can not have the EF. It would shake up our diocese if there was an EF Mass within an hour of 20 parishes.

What does this even mean? Can you not have an EF because the bishop refuses, or is it that there is not a stable enough group/demand for the bishop to devote the resources necessary for something that may not have enough support? What does "it would shake up our diocese" mean? In my town there is one parish that has and has had a regular EF Mass for the past 20 years. Those who know about it and desire it go and those who don’t know or don’t desire it don’t go. It hasn’t shaken up anything here, anymore than the sspx chapel that was established years ago.

500 priests is nothing to shake a stick at. It was less than that that did so much damage with the scandals.

The Church is more than just those Catholics in America. Of the half million priests around the world, 500 is a small fraction.

My only point is that I live in a place where the SSPX could do a lot of good. I wish they could do that good within the Church because outside of it they can do no good at all.

Once again, as a priestly society you probably wouldn’t even be aware of their presence in your diocese unless they were given a parish. I still don’t understand how such a small group of people who exclusively celebrate a form of the Mass that a very small percentage of Catholics know about or even desire could do so much for the Church.

What I dont understand is all the absolute disdain and hatred for people that we should be praying for and who’s hands consecrate our Lords Body.

It should be noted that they consecrate our Lords Body illicitly and in disobedience of the pope and Canon Law. To use your own example, even that original small group of protestant priests were validly celebrating Mass.

 

[TrueLight]

Once again, as a priestly society you probably wouldn’t even be aware of their presence in your diocese unless they were given a parish. I still don’t understand how such a small group of people who exclusively celebrate a form of the Mass that a very small percentage of Catholics know about or even desire could do so much for the Church.

The very fact that we have constant threads on them show that they are having an effect. Also, some might disagree with me, but do you notice the conversations Rome is having about Vatican II and the documents of Vatican II? Notice the clarifications that have been forthcoming?

Because of the SSPX, the FSSP was born - and by that I mean, their stance forced everyone to see that there remained some faithful that were really attached to the Latin Mass. And so the FSSP was formed…

In the midst of the illicit behavior, the SSPX has managed to have an effect. I am not saying that the SSPX will save the Church or anything like that, but this small group of priests, by insisting that we remain faithful to tradition, is having an effect.

 

[Timothysis]

The very fact that we have constant threads on them show that they are having an effect. Also, some might disagree with me, but do you notice the conversations Rome is having about Vatican II and the documents of Vatican II? Notice the clarifications that have been forthcoming?

An effect, possibly, on those here at CAF but outside of here, how many people have you met who know anything about the SSPX or the struggle of Archbishop Lefebvre?

It is my understanding that the Holy See is willing to discuss any ambiguities of Vatican II which the SSPX may have but it is NOT an occasion of saying that the Council was wrong or misguided. In this sense, using the word c**larifications is completely one sided in favor of the Church.

 

[Timothysis]

Because of the SSPX, the FSSP was born - and by that I mean, their stance forced everyone to see that there remained some faithful that were really attached to the Latin Mass. And so the FSSP was formed…

In the midst of the illicit behavior, the SSPX has managed to have an effect. I am not saying that the SSPX will save the Church or anything like that, but this small group of priests, by insisting that we remain faithful to tradition, is having an effect.

Brother JR once told the story of how several SSPX priest could not in good conscience remain with the Society after the excommunications and went to Rome not knowing what to do. They told their story to Cardinal Ratzinger who told them to come to his office the next day. When they arrived Pope John Paul II was there to welcome them back and only requested a renewal of their pledge of obedience. And so the FSSP was formed. This is a far cry from the behavior and actions of the SSPX.