P
ProVobis
Guest
Br JR, thanks. I wondered about the “observance” part. Seems like it can have multiple meanings here.
- Status
C
choliks
Guest
Ooops. I forgot to specify.
J
JReducation
Guest
Apparently, they’re using it differently from what has been the traditional use of the term in the Church. It sounds like they’re not referring to observing a particular way of life, but a particular mission and vision. Primitive observance has not been used that way before. This is why many of us went
when we saw the term.They should have used another term. Talk about irony. The same people who complain about the ambiguity in the Church today, use language in a way that has never been used in the Church before, thus creating ambiguity about their identity.
Why do we human beings complicate our lives so much?
Fraternally,
Br. JR, FFV
J
Justin_Swanton
Guest
According to the Angelqueen post, Mother Ann-Marie Simoulin has given her name to the new group. She is the Mother Superior of the Fanjeaux Dominican sisters which in Traditionalist terms is quite a large community: several schools, well over a hundred nuns and something like a 1000+ pupils. See here, though the information is rather dated. Question is whether her community will follow her.
The fact that Bishop Fellay has *not *signed an accord will I suspect take the wind out of the sails of the dissenters. After all they only dissented in the first place because an accord was going to be signed. I doubt they’ll get widespread support from the Traditionalist faithful.
The fact that Bishop Fellay has *not *signed an accord will I suspect take the wind out of the sails of the dissenters. After all they only dissented in the first place because an accord was going to be signed. I doubt they’ll get widespread support from the Traditionalist faithful.
M
mymamamary
Guest
You know, I will chime in and give my two cents
I want the SSPX back. If they would come back, I would possibly consider a vocation, however they aren’t back, so they are out of the question.
I also believe that we cannot force a single set of “Spirituality” on anyone. Some people would not bode living well spiritually with Franciscan Spirituality. Some wouldn’t stand the Dominican approach of study and learning. Some would think the the OPUS DEI is too mundane. Some people don’t like Marian devotions as much (Which is unbelievalbe, who can’t possibly love their Heavenly Mamma), Some people like the NO, Some like the EF. That is the beauty of the Catholic Church. The fact that so many spiritualites co-exist for the ultimate good is so beautiful, especially when the Faithful are gathered for events like World Youth Day, or at the Vatican. Its so beautiful to see them all gathered in ONE.
I am personally traditional. I believe that there are codes that could use a little “tightening”, (thats a whole 'nother debate). However, I would not want to completely force the EF on every single Catholic, nor the NO. I love them both. Both are valid, and both when celbrated properly, are very beautiful and Sacred. I believe that the Church should be a little more conservative on small issues, but other than that, I enjoy the fact that so many spiritualites exist.
For my vocation, Im considering either the Friars of the Immaculate or the Institute of CHRIST THE KING, Sovereign Priest.
Please pray for me…
I want the SSPX back. If they would come back, I would possibly consider a vocation, however they aren’t back, so they are out of the question.
I also believe that we cannot force a single set of “Spirituality” on anyone. Some people would not bode living well spiritually with Franciscan Spirituality. Some wouldn’t stand the Dominican approach of study and learning. Some would think the the OPUS DEI is too mundane. Some people don’t like Marian devotions as much (Which is unbelievalbe, who can’t possibly love their Heavenly Mamma), Some people like the NO, Some like the EF. That is the beauty of the Catholic Church. The fact that so many spiritualites co-exist for the ultimate good is so beautiful, especially when the Faithful are gathered for events like World Youth Day, or at the Vatican. Its so beautiful to see them all gathered in ONE.
I am personally traditional. I believe that there are codes that could use a little “tightening”, (thats a whole 'nother debate). However, I would not want to completely force the EF on every single Catholic, nor the NO. I love them both. Both are valid, and both when celbrated properly, are very beautiful and Sacred. I believe that the Church should be a little more conservative on small issues, but other than that, I enjoy the fact that so many spiritualites exist.
For my vocation, Im considering either the Friars of the Immaculate or the Institute of CHRIST THE KING, Sovereign Priest.
Please pray for me…
J
JReducation
Guest
The red is mine. If I may, since I have been all three: vocation director, formator and now superior, let me help you out here by clarifying that those of us who are either religious, priests or both, did not consider a vocation. A vocation is not something that one considers at all. We came because Christ invited us. We heard a very clear invitation to follow him down a specific path. The two paths that you have in your last paragraph, the Franciscans and the ICRSS are diametrically opposed to each other. This does not mean that they are enemies. Diametrically opposed here means that both are on the journey to union with the divine, but one is going east and the other is going west. Christ does not invite that way.
ICRSS is a secular society of clerics. Secular, meaning that they live in the world. They never leave the world. They own property. They come and go as they please. They do not have a strict way of life that all have to follow. There is a fraternal spirit and they do many things in common, such as prayer. But each develops his spirituality, his relationships and his goals in life. They do not make a vow of chastity. They make a promise of celibacy. Everyone is called to be chaste. This includes celibate people. But a promise of celibacy is a promise never to marry.
The Franciscans are not a society of clerics. They are an order. This means that they follow a rule of life that governs their lives from the time they wake up to the time they go to bed. They are part of an international family of Franciscans. The FI are one obedience within this great family of ours. An obedience is an autonomous group of Franciscans who owe obedience to one superior. They are not called congregations or orders as such, because all of them follow the exact same rule written by St. Francis. The difference is in the things that are not in the rule. The rule cannot be changed. However, whatever is not in the rule can be added by writing statutes in what we call a constitution. Each Franciscan community has a constitution. A friar is not a secular man. He is a consecrated man. He owns nothing. He does not have friends outside of the community. He never leaves the community house without the permission of the superior. Some superiors are more flexible and they give you blanket permission as long as you’re going to stay in the area, but you still have to leave a note. In other words, accountability for your actions and whereabouts it essential. You will not find this in a secular society of priests.
The friars also make a vow of chastity, not a promise of celibacy. We are celibate, because the Rule commands celibacy. Chastity means that we no longer belong to our natural families. We become one with our Franciscan family. A priest in a secular society remains a part of his family. When he is old or too sick to work, he goes home to his family or he buys a condo in Florida and retires. A friar has not place to go when he is sick or old. He remains with his brothers and they care for him until he dies.
J
JReducation
Guest
Notice, that I have not yet spoken about the priesthood. The friar-priest is not essential to the life of the Franciscan order. We have priests because from the very beginning, some secular priests left their bishops to follow Francis, not because Francis wanted priests, unlike St. Dominic who founded an order of priests. If you become a Franciscan, even if you’re ordained, you will always be a brother. You will never be singled out as a priest. This singularity is not part of the Franciscan charism. You will work, live and die next to men who are priests, cooks, theologians, administrators, artists, medical doctors, etc. They are all considered equal in dignity, duty, rights and obligations. This is not the case in a secular society like the ICRSS. They have men who are not priests. They call them lay brothers or sometimes, just brother. These brothers are very different from the friar. They are not equal to the priests in the Institute. They are consecrated men, while the priests are not. But their invitation is to take care of the priests. It is a noble call, but very different from that of a friar.
A priest of the ICRSS is not expected to scrub toilets, do laundry, nurse a sick brother, walk the dog, cook dinner, do gardening or work on an engine. These duties are considered beneath the priest. Whereas among Franciscans, these duties are shared by all the brothers, priests and non priests alike. If you have the gift of cooking, guess what, you’re going to cook, even if you’re a priest. You will still hear confessions and celebrate mass, but you are also going to serve your brothers.
Your brothers will dictate how you live, your opinions, your goals in life, how you pray, what you think and how you act. This is called accountability. This does not exist in an institute. The friars have a house chapter where points are discussed and a vote is taken. Once that vote is taken, everyone complies. If the discussion is about the merits of apple pie (a silly example) and the vote is against apple pie, every friar is bound by obedience to his brothers not refrain from apple pie. This kind of structure does not exist in an Institute. An institute is made up of secular priests. This means that they remain in the world. Because they’re in the world,they have the right to eat, like, think and opine as they wish. The superior can only intervene if it does harm to the Institute or to the ministry.
Do you see why I say that the two are going in opposite directions? They are both noble and both are paths to God, but very different. If you were attracted to Franciscans and Dominicans, that would make sense. They are both mendicants and they are on the same path, with different ministries. They are both very scholarly. However, the Franciscan uses his academic knowledge in the classroom more than anywhere else. Franciscan scholars are usually professors. Dominicans use their knowledge to preach. There is a similarity there, but not identical.
But ICRSS and FI are no where near each other. Think about this again and ask Jesus to questions. What are you inviting me to do with my life? How can I do it faithfully?
Remember, a vocation is not something that we consider. A vocation is an invitation that we hear.
Fraternally,
Br. JR, FFV
A priest of the ICRSS is not expected to scrub toilets, do laundry, nurse a sick brother, walk the dog, cook dinner, do gardening or work on an engine. These duties are considered beneath the priest. Whereas among Franciscans, these duties are shared by all the brothers, priests and non priests alike. If you have the gift of cooking, guess what, you’re going to cook, even if you’re a priest. You will still hear confessions and celebrate mass, but you are also going to serve your brothers.
Your brothers will dictate how you live, your opinions, your goals in life, how you pray, what you think and how you act. This is called accountability. This does not exist in an institute. The friars have a house chapter where points are discussed and a vote is taken. Once that vote is taken, everyone complies. If the discussion is about the merits of apple pie (a silly example) and the vote is against apple pie, every friar is bound by obedience to his brothers not refrain from apple pie. This kind of structure does not exist in an Institute. An institute is made up of secular priests. This means that they remain in the world. Because they’re in the world,they have the right to eat, like, think and opine as they wish. The superior can only intervene if it does harm to the Institute or to the ministry.
Do you see why I say that the two are going in opposite directions? They are both noble and both are paths to God, but very different. If you were attracted to Franciscans and Dominicans, that would make sense. They are both mendicants and they are on the same path, with different ministries. They are both very scholarly. However, the Franciscan uses his academic knowledge in the classroom more than anywhere else. Franciscan scholars are usually professors. Dominicans use their knowledge to preach. There is a similarity there, but not identical.
But ICRSS and FI are no where near each other. Think about this again and ask Jesus to questions. What are you inviting me to do with my life? How can I do it faithfully?
Remember, a vocation is not something that we consider. A vocation is an invitation that we hear.
Fraternally,
Br. JR, FFV
M
mymamamary
Guest
Thats what I like about Franciscan spirituality though. The Humility. IF I became a Priest, in a Franciscan or otherwise setting, I could hardly care less if they call me Father. I don’t care if they called me Brother, in fact to curb pride at times, I would encourage it. I don’t want to be a Priest for the preferntial treatment, I feel called to be a Priest, to Offer Sacrifice and Serve the Church.
R
RogerDeCourcy
Guest
Forget it’s the SSPX. If a priest were ordained by a vagus bishop and wanted to ‘come in from the cold’, what would be the mechanism, if any?
For starters, I think priests have a ‘genealogy’; who ordained them, going back in time. Most Latin Rite priests can trace back to a particular Cardinal. So I guess that would be investigated.
My point is the SSPX are exciting a lot of emotions in the relatively small fishpond that is religious ‘nerds’, for want fo a better word. Historically and in the wider world, it’s not the earthquake we think it is. Vatican I came and went. Vatican II will too. We must seek our own sanctification. We will come and go too!!
For starters, I think priests have a ‘genealogy’; who ordained them, going back in time. Most Latin Rite priests can trace back to a particular Cardinal. So I guess that would be investigated.
My point is the SSPX are exciting a lot of emotions in the relatively small fishpond that is religious ‘nerds’, for want fo a better word. Historically and in the wider world, it’s not the earthquake we think it is. Vatican I came and went. Vatican II will too. We must seek our own sanctification. We will come and go too!!
M
Mrs_Sally
Guest
Excellent point. First that this is not the big deal we think it is in the ‘real’ world. But more important that we should be concerned first with our own salvation.Forget it’s the SSPX. If a priest were ordained by a vagus bishop and wanted to ‘come in from the cold’, what would be the mechanism, if any?
For starters, I think priests have a ‘genealogy’; who ordained them, going back in time. Most Latin Rite priests can trace back to a particular Cardinal. So I guess that would be investigated.
My point is the SSPX are exciting a lot of emotions in the relatively small fishpond that is religious ‘nerds’, for want fo a better word. Historically and in the wider world, it’s not the earthquake we think it is. Vatican I came and went. Vatican II will too. We must seek our own sanctification. We will come and go too!!
P
pnewton
Guest
I thought what happens in vagus, stays in vagus.
M
Mrs_Sally
Guest
. Oh my! Too funny!!!
J
JReducation
Guest
He has to provide the documentation that proves that he was ordained by a validly ordained bishop. If there is a doubt, the man can be ordained conditionally. That’s what we’re doing with the Anglicans. The bishop will usually say something like "If you’re not ordained, I . . . " The Anglicans have such a messy history. He don’t know who does and who does not have Apostolic Succession. You can do this with a priest whose pedigree is unclear.
The problem is that every time that there is a crisis in the Church or the world, the generation going through it thinks that it’s the biggest crisis in history. People never look back at previous crises or forward at the possibilities. Bishop Fellay said something once that made a great deal of sense. “When has the Catholic Church not been in crisis?”My point is the SSPX are exciting a lot of emotions in the relatively small fishpond that is religious ‘nerds’, for want fo a better word. Historically and in the wider world, it’s not the earthquake we think it is. Vatican I came and went. Vatican II will too. We must seek our own sanctification. We will come and go too!!
This is very true. I always look like a total idiot, because people will comment to me about the mass. I hear about who tap danced down the aisle, which woman distributed Holy Communion wearing spandex, the stale joke the priest made during the homily, who tried to hold whose hand during the Our Father and I just give people a blank look.
I’m not trying to be dismissive. My blank look is absolutely genuine. When I’m at mass I never see any of these things that people say make them want to scream. The moment I reach my place, I kneel (if there’s time) and begin to pray. Once the mass begins, I’m so tuned in to every word or every thought that crosses my mind, that I’ve tuned out the entire world. It may be a phrase from the Responsorial Psalm, the Gospel or just a particular subject that I want to discuss with the Lord that day. The fact is that I’m there, but not there. I’m participating in mass, but oblivious.
Part of this comes from being a natural space cadet. Part of it comes from having been formed in the Franciscan school. You’re taught to be poor. A poor man is detached, even from his opinions and feelings. You don’t own them. If you don’t own them, then as St. Francis said, you don’t have to protect them either. You can ignore them. What’s left? Only what’s happening directly in front of you, the mass.
The other part comes from what the spiritual masters call “holy indifference”. Franciscans are very well educated in Spiritual Theology. We actually learn to be indifferent. In fact, if you’re not, you won’t make it to final vows. No way! If you have an opinion about everything and see a crisis everywhere, or find heresy and modernism spelled out in your alphabet soup, you will not make a good friar. It means that you can’t clear you brain to let St. Francis teach you how to get to Jesus. If you can’t get to Jesus via this route, then this way of life is not for you. The universal vocation is to reach the Father through the Son.
If I’m working with my pregnant mothers, the terminally ill who wants to accelerate death, the couple who is confused about contraception, the young person who does not understand the Church’s position on the sacredness of life, then I’m all there. That’s what God wants me to attend to. If the person on the Communion line is chatting on the cell phone or the one behind me is clicking his dentures, I’m oblivious. God does not want me to pay attention to that. I turn on the indifference mode. I literally zoom in on the thought of the Eucharist. I have great visual imagination, so that even if I’m the 200th person in line to receive Communion, I can walk and still see the host in my head without closing my eyes and knocking over the little lady with the walker.
Hold on, “Brother” is not a title of humility. You don’t call a priest Brother to help him be humble. That’s discrimination, because it represents vertical thinking. You call a friar or a monk Brother, because he’s a consecrated religious brother. He is literally a religious brother. He never ceases being a religious brother unless he gets an indult of secularization from the Holy Father. Then he would become a secular priest or a secular layman.
Fraternally,
Br. JR, FFV
P
pnewton
Guest
I never cared one way or another about indifference. If someone did care about holy indifference, wouldn’t that mean, by definition, he could not foster it?
J
JReducation
Guest
CuteI never cared one way or another about indifference. If someone did care about holy indifference, wouldn’t that mean, by definition, he could not foster it?
And babies are delivered by the US Postal Service too.
Fraternally,
Br.JR, FFV
T
TrueLight
Guest
R
Rich_C
Guest
I think that honoring priests is great blessing to the laity, a way for us to practice humility in a secular world that is always telling us "you’re #1.
It can also be a humble act to accept the honors of your office, to keep the dignity of the office, without feeling that its a reflection on you personally.
M
Melchior_1
Guest
His Grace can now make a formal appeal to th…oh wait, he can’t make a formal appeal, because everyone is suspended. Which is why if the SSPX did things by the book, they’d have to wait until they came back to make any disciplinary actions. Oops.
F
Friar_David_O.Carm
Guest
Actually I do not believe suspension of clerical status has anything to do with actual membership to a religious institute.
There are members of religious institutes that are in full communion with the Church that are under suspension but are still full members of their institute. One can not be removed from a religious institute without action from Rome (I believe).
P
ProVobis
Guest
It’s getting confusing here. Doesn’t “suspension” refer to the priest’s ministry and not his status within the Church? He can still call himself Catholic AFAIK.
- Status