Tangible ways a nonbeliver can not help as much as a believer

[ThinkingSapien]

I succeeded in keeping a suicidal woman alive for five months but unwisely trusted a doctor’s judgment that she was manipulating me

The presence of people that will take advantage of one’s kindness has made it difficult at time to distinguish those exploiting from those genuinely in need. Sadly I think it might not be an uncommon for someone in need to be flagged as trying to take advantage of one’s kindness. ??

She rarely spoke but one day she said “No one loves me.” I replied “What about your son?” (who was only twelve). She didn’t say anything but I’m sure that thought helped to sustain her in her deep depression.

Her main problem was that she was a Catholic who had lost her faith. So even though she said very little I talked a lot about the purpose of life and how we are created to love and be loved, reasons an unbeliever couldn’t have given her.

Feeling love can be extremely helpful, comforting, and can make difficulties in life more bearable. If one thinks that love is part of the purpose and intention that someone was brought into existence than this may be quite helpful to them. There’s more than one way to make someone feel love. To borrow the metaphor of Gary D. Chapman there are some love languages that resonate more with some than with others. Sometimes figuring out someone’s love language can take work and take time.

Love seems to be part of the human experience, experienced by religious and non-religious. As to alleged inability of someone non-religious to say something about one’s “purpose for existence” being tied to love I disagree. It’s going to in part depend on the person being spoken to.

One of the people for which I had to seek help because of suicidal talks had a discussion with me sometime well before the possible suicide was a known issue. There was something that she had planned to do with which I had moral disagreement and I asked her not to engage in the behavior. Instead of giving her the reasons that I had a problem with her pending actions I gave her an argument based on a theological perspective. As you might imagine her initial response was to point out that it was not part of my beliefs. I agreed with her, but I also pointed out that the foundation of the argument was part of her belief. I can’t remember whether or not she went through with the action but I do remember it was enough to make her think about her plan more. Similarly if a religious person is trying to convince a non-religious person not to perform some action the arguments presented to the non-religious person need not be part of the motivation for why the religious person would avoid the action to be effective.

The terminally ill person that I’m keeping an eye on had come up with some way to terminate herself should she feel the need. She’s Catholic, and knowing this my statements to discourage her from acting on this plan included references to the CCC. This is not because I am trying to promote the CCC, but because it was something to which I thought she would respond given her background. To someone that is not Catholic I would not make such a references.

There’s another question that this raises. Are there ways that a religious person can be helped in which a non-religious person can’t (or vice versa)? That may be material for another thread.

Even though I failed in the end at least she spent the Christmas holidays with her son when all her friends had written her off as a hopeless case. She was gradually recovering from her depression but the odds were against me because I also had to care for my elderly mother who thought she had lice in her hair and drove her out of the house. I explained that Carol kept scratching her head because she was mentally disturbed but to no avail.

From what I understand the suicide rate here in the USA is typically lower during the winter holidays (contrary to popular belief) and it’s thought that the close proximity and togetherness with friends and family around that time lead to a more positive mood. But I’ve often wondered if those that don’t find themselves among large groups of friends and family feel more alone at that time. If many of her friends had written her off I could see that collectively contributing to her feeling more alone.

You are only one person tony. There are limitations imposed in how many places that you can be at once. Don’t blame yourself for only being able to be in one place at a time.

The question remains: “What caused her to walk along the track with a smile on her face?” Her son, her friend and I all phoned her in the morning on that fatal day but there was absolute silence at the other end, no sound in the room whatsoever. The telephone company told me the next day there was no fault in the line or the phone…

That’s may remain a mystery. There’s no way to know if this is applicable to her, but someone seeming much happier after being depressed is not an uncommon occurrence before a suicide. I’ve wondered if it is because the person anticipates being at peace soon or if there is some other reason. It remains an unknown to me.

Pardon my mistakes. Sent from 10,964 meters above ground.

 

[inocente]

I did blame myself for being a fool who forgot Carol had asked me to help her kill herself a few hours earlier but that evening she was curled up on a settee in a friend’s flat drinking whisky as if she didn’t have a care in the world. I have good reasons to believe she was not clinically ill but possessed. For one thing she was terrified of being on her own and followed me everywhere like a lost dog - even to Mass on Sundays which she hated, with tears streaming down her cheeks all the time she was in church. If she had really wanted to kill herself she could have easily slipped out of the house and walked in front of a bus.

Everyone who was outlived someone else can find things they think they might have done better. And when someone dies suddenly, we are wired to think we are to blame. Every soldier who survives a shell blast when his buddies didn’t, feels guilty even though it was totally outside of his control. The hardest person to forgive is yourself. But I think God looks at you and finds nothing to forgive, because some things you can’t control.

I don’t believe in demons. That was how people used to understand mental illness, and that’s why Jesus uses that terminology, but I think now we know different.

*One day she looked at me with so much hatred in her eyes I have never forgotten it. I’m not superstitious in the slightest but I felt I was in the presence of sheer evil. It is the only time in my life I have ever felt so afraid - not even when I was being mugged by a thug. There are other reasons I believe she wasn’t responsible, her son being one of them. Why didn’t she take an overdose rather than choose such a terrible way to die?

I don’t believe she did it of her own free will. She was definitely obsessed but lucid and down to earth in every other respect. Even though I often questioned her she wouldn’t or couldn’t tell me why she wanted to die. The question remains: “What caused her to walk along the track with a smile on her face?” Her son, her friend and I all phoned her in the morning on that fatal day but there was absolute silence at the other end, no sound in the room whatsoever. The telephone company told me the next day there was no fault in the line or the phone…*

I know why she was smiling. Twenty years ago I had a period of depression, caused by overwork. My doctor categorized it as mild, and said it is common, but even that “mild” form is a living hell. You cannot feel positive emotions, everything is negative, despondent, angry, desperate, dull, grey. You wish there was an off button, to get some rest, it hurts just to think and you can’t stop yourself thinking.

And that’s just “mild” depression. I cannot image how much worse severe depression is.

I think Carol didn’t overdose because if she was found and pumped out, she knew she would then be watched more closely and it would be impossible to end it all. She wanted a more certain method, and she smiled from relief, from knowing the hell would soon end, the heavy burden would be lifted and she would at last find rest unto her soul.

That’s what the illness can do, turn logic on its head.

 

[tonyrey]

Everyone who was outlived someone else can find things they think they might have done better. And when someone dies suddenly, we are wired to think we are to blame. Every soldier who survives a shell blast when his buddies didn’t, feels guilty even though it was totally outside of his control. The hardest person to forgive is yourself. But I think God looks at you and finds nothing to forgive, because some things you can’t control.

I don’t believe in demons. That was how people used to understand mental illness, and that’s why Jesus uses that terminology, but I think now we know different.

I know why she was smiling. Twenty years ago I had a period of depression, caused by overwork. My doctor categorized it as mild, and said it is common, but even that “mild” form is a living hell. You cannot feel positive emotions, everything is negative, despondent, angry, desperate, dull, grey. You wish there was an off button, to get some rest, it hurts just to think and you can’t stop yourself thinking.

And that’s just “mild” depression. I cannot image how much worse severe depression is.

I think Carol didn’t overdose because if she was found and pumped out, she knew she would then be watched more closely and it would be impossible to end it all. She wanted a more certain method, and she smiled from relief, from knowing the hell would soon end, the heavy burden would be lifted and she would at last find rest unto her soul.

That’s what the illness can do, turn logic on its head.

There is truth in what you say but depression doesn’t explain why she was so afraid of being on her own, why she hated being in church, why on one single occasion she had such an uncharacteristic look of hatred in her eyes, why she couldn’t give a reason for killing herself, why her love for her son didn’t stop her, why there was no sound whatsoever when the phone stopped ringing on the day she killed herself and one important fact I forgot to mention. She had arranged for her son to be adopted by a solicitor after her death. Three months later his wife committed suicide. Was that sheer coincidence?

 

[inocente]

There is truth in what you say but depression doesn’t explain why she was so afraid of being on her own, why she hated being in church, why on one single occasion she had such an uncharacteristic look of hatred in her eyes, why she couldn’t give a reason for killing herself, why her love for her son didn’t stop her, why there was no sound whatsoever when the phone stopped ringing on the day she killed herself and one important fact I forgot to mention. She had arranged for her son to be adopted by a solicitor after her death. Three months later his wife committed suicide. Was that sheer coincidence?

It’s comforting to have someone around who understands if only because it means they can answer the door and the phone and talk to others while you hide.

I stopped going to church when I was in depression. I couldn’t cope with all those people all at once, it took too much out of me. And it was frightening that perhaps I couldn’t sit there all that time and might fall apart in front of everyone.

As I said, the only emotions you can feel are negative, and with half your brain closed down you’re not always in control, so bursts of anger and hate are common.

Remember that co-pilot who flew the airliner into the Alps? The voice recorder showed only regular breathing. The calm of knowing it would soon be over, just as with Carol. (But I will never understand why he took all those others with him, and don’t even want to try).

It was good of her to think of her son. I don’t know the extent to which his state or the circumstances contributed to the wife’s problems. But they are causal connections, and a coincidence requires no causal connection, so I think it can’t be called coincidence.

 

[tonyrey]

There is truth in what you say but depression doesn’t explain why she was so afraid of being on her own, why she hated being in church, why on one single occasion she had such an uncharacteristic look of hatred in her eyes, why she couldn’t give a reason for killing herself, why her love for her son didn’t stop her, why there was no sound whatsoever when the phone stopped ringing on the day she killed herself and one important fact I forgot to mention. She had arranged for her son to be adopted by a solicitor after her death. Three months later his wife committed suicide. Was that sheer coincidence?

I can’t imagine how Carol’s son (who was only twelve) could have caused a solicitor’s wife with three daughters to kill herself. It implies she was driven out of her mind by a boy who was out of control to such an extent even her husband couldn’t do anything to control him or find another solution. Surely he would have been deeply concerned about her state of mind and taken some form of action to help her. If the boy was molesting the girls he wouldn’t have hesitated to have him removed from the house and taken into social care. I believe a child who has lost his mother so suddenly would appreciate having a family to belong to and try to please them rather than cause trouble. So two questions remain:

Why did Carol kill herself and why did the solicitor’s wife kill herself? If they were depressed what was the cause of their depression? Unless we can answer these questions we cannot talk a person off the ledge. I think it is a mistake to try to explain all human behaviour in terms of natural causes. As Hamlet said to Horatio:

“There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio,
Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.”

 

[inocente]

I can’t imagine how Carol’s son (who was only twelve) could have caused a solicitor’s wife with three daughters to kill herself. It implies she was driven out of her mind by a boy who was out of control to such an extent even her husband couldn’t do anything to control him or find another solution. Surely he would have been deeply concerned about her state of mind and taken some form of action to help her. If the boy was molesting the girls he wouldn’t have hesitated to have him removed from the house and taken into social care. I believe a child who has lost his mother so suddenly would appreciate having a family to belong to and try to please them rather than cause trouble.

I didn’t mean the boy was badly behaved, but that he went through the trauma of his mother’s suicide, and so the wife had to cope with that and the circumstances, which probably added to her own problems.

*So two questions remain:

Why did Carol kill herself and why did the solicitor’s wife kill herself? If they were depressed what was the cause of their depression? Unless we can answer these questions we cannot talk a person off the ledge. I think it is a mistake to try to explain all human behaviour in terms of natural causes.*

I don’t know about the UK where you are, but this link says that in America, 1 in every 6 people will suffer major depression at some point in their life. Which means that right now, around 13 million people in America are clinically depressed. Apparently there are many causes, including fast food, not enough sunlight, sleep disorders, anxiety, major life event.

As the link says, it is treatable, and it is treated by therapy, medication, regular exercise and so on, not by casting out demons from millions of people every year. Telling someone on a ledge that they are possessed by demons is, I think, more likely to make them feel lost and alienated, more likely to make them jump.

(Anyone reading this who is persistently sad or anxious, or who feels hopeless or worthless or rundown, go see your doctor, he/she knows how to help you, they see it all the time, it’s a well-researched illness, nothing to feel ashamed about).

 

[tonyrey]

I didn’t mean the boy was badly behaved, but that he went through the trauma of his mother’s suicide, and so the wife had to cope with that and the circumstances, which probably added to her own problems.

I don’t know about the UK where you are, but this link says that in America, 1 in every 6 people will suffer major depression at some point in their life. Which means that right now, around 13 million people in America are clinically depressed. Apparently there are many causes, including fast food, not enough sunlight, sleep disorders, anxiety, major life event.

As the link says, it is treatable, and it is treated by therapy, medication, regular exercise and so on, not by casting out demons from millions of people every year. Telling someone on a ledge that they are possessed by demons is, I think, more likely to make them feel lost and alienated, more likely to make them jump.

(Anyone reading this who is persistently sad or anxious, or who feels hopeless or worthless or rundown, go see your doctor, he/she knows how to help you, they see it all the time, it’s a well-researched illness, nothing to feel ashamed about).

It would obviously be wrong to tell severely depressed people they may be possessed but if we ignore the possibility that they need spiritual guidance we are descending to the level of materialists who believe everything can be explained scientifically. Modern medicine takes the whole person into account not just the physical symptoms and recognises that our beliefs and values make all the difference to our will to live. If we reject the possibility of divine inspiration we are not Christians but deists, agnostics or atheists. To restrict evil to natural events implies that it doesn’t even exist! Yet there is abundant evidence that it does and the accounts of possession in the gospels are not derived from primitive beliefs but the logical consequence of supernatural reality. If all references to Satan, including those by Jesus, are sheer nonsense then Christian doctrines are no longer credible. Exorcism is no more than an exercise in futility!

 

[inocente]

It would obviously be wrong to tell severely depressed people they may be possessed but if we ignore the possibility that they need spiritual guidance we are descending to the level of materialists who believe everything can be explained scientifically. Modern medicine takes the whole person into account not just the physical symptoms and recognises that our beliefs and values make all the difference to our will to live. If we reject the possibility of divine inspiration we are not Christians but deists, agnostics or atheists. To restrict evil to natural events implies that it doesn’t even exist! Yet there is abundant evidence that it does and the accounts of possession in the gospels are not derived from primitive beliefs but the logical consequence of supernatural reality. If all references to Satan, including those by Jesus, are sheer nonsense then Christian doctrines are no longer credible. Exorcism is no more than an exercise in futility!

Surely we’re Christians because we follow Christ, and we don’t need to believe in demons to do that. I don’t agree with connecting mental disorders with evil, it never helps to tell an ill person that they are ill because they’re evil or possessed by evil, and there’s still a lot of prejudice about mental illness, some of which is caused by trying to connect it with evil when it is a medical matter.

Certainly talking is an important part of therapy, and talking to someone who shares your spiritual beliefs can obviously be beneficial. For some, exorcism may have a placebo effect, but we don’t say a broken leg or the flu is caused by demons and can be cured by exorcism, and I don’t see how mental heath is any different.

I’m getting uneasy about discussing a disorder where my only expertise is having once suffered from it, so I’d like to end it there, thanks for the conversation.

 

[tonyrey]

Surely we’re Christians because we follow Christ, and we don’t need to believe in demons to do that. I don’t agree with connecting mental disorders with evil, it never helps to tell an ill person that they are ill because they’re evil or possessed by evil, and there’s still a lot of prejudice about mental illness, some of which is caused by trying to connect it with evil when it is a medical matter.

Certainly talking is an important part of therapy, and talking to someone who shares your spiritual beliefs can obviously be beneficial. For some, exorcism may have a placebo effect, but we don’t say a broken leg or the flu is caused by demons and can be cured by exorcism, and I don’t see how mental heath is any different.

I’m getting uneasy about discussing a disorder where my only expertise is having once suffered from it, so I’d like to end it there, thanks for the conversation.

I have the advantage because I worked in a psychiatric hospital for two years and understand that the subject is not everyone’s cup of tea! Best wishes.

 

[StrawberryJam]

A non-believer cannot console or give hope to others when a person they love has died or has an incurable disease or has been treated unjustly. They cannot console lonely persons who have no one to love them and are convinced no one loves them. They cannot give depressed and suicidal people a good reason why we are alive and have a lot to live for. They cannot justify belief in human rights or the principles of liberty, equality and fraternity. As Lear said, nothing shall come of nothing…

This is not something I can challenge you on now, not today. You have already set the tone for this to go your way.

I will challenge you on this directly at your call, when you are up for it.

 

[StrawberryJam]

I have the advantage because I worked in a psychiatric hospital for two years and understand that the subject is not everyone’s cup of tea! Best wishes.

You better start evaluating your superiority complex.