Tarot Cards and Divination

[sleepingflail]

I also should add, that it was Jesus himself who was derided by “Pharisees” for hanging out with sinners and protitutes. What did he say? They that are well need no physician, but they that are sick.

I’m sorry, but I have profound love and respect for the people I work with, and while some seem to have no path in life, God loves them and wants to help them. I had to sell a book I absolutely HATE today, and what could I do? I can do nothing. A lady came in today trying to get us to buy her old witchcraft books today and trade them for credit. She told me how she wants to change her life, to get away from that stuff. I sometimes have to get my hands dirty in order to clean something. This in itself is no sin. I will go to confession again and tell my friend I don’t like circulating irreligious material soon. Wonder if his opinion and advice will change from the last time.

I see witches in my store, some just getting involved in that wicked stuff, and I also see women like this 55 year old who obviously had her life ruined by the stuff. You could tell. She couldn’t stop grinding her teeth.
I felt sorry for her.

 

[ceeceex2]

The thing of it is the RCC does not even consider them evil thus most of my point…anything at all can be thought of as evil for goodness sake even Jesus was considered evil by people.

I read a whole bunch of judging like this “OH thank you Jesus I am not like them”,sound familiar? To me it does…it has everything to do with judging because it is only a opinion you all have ( basing your judgments on) I am neither here nor there to cards , oujia boards or anything like that I believe God gives us gifts and wants us to use them on our own…but so what if the Pope thinks something so what if anyone on this earth thinks its wrong or right its only opinion…its choose your flavor of the week.

“First off, and this isn’t the point we’re talking about, but this is… looks up at the forum name the “Traditional Catholicism” forum. So DannPM31 will be getting Catholic answers and responses. You’re not going to like to hear this, but yours is not a Catholic answer”

To whomever that was who wrote the above you reek of self righteousness I was never barred from joining this forum nor was I told I could not answer…the Traditional stance of the RCC is that the cards are NOT evil but only that we are cautioned to stay away from them as fraudulent people use them,read between the lines…man you people are so misinformed.

Maybe the original poster needed love not judgment.

So I will step away from this ugly thread now so you can all get on with judging everyone into hell,BTW feel free to say I am from the devil it strengthens my faith.

OYE. ROTFL…

 

[1way]

First of all; Hello to everyone,

I’m a born and raised devout Catholic and wanted to hear what people here thought about this topic.

I have been look at Tarot cards and Astrology online, some of the history and such, and it seems quite a bit of European clergy were fascinated with/used the aforementioned things that are considered to be of the occult with their usage condemned in the catechism.

What would be the difference between interpreting these items just as you would interpret a dream?

If you’re not one of these nuts that believes in some kind of mystical force guiding these cards but rather a random process (aka you’re shuffling the deck duh!) and the possibility of influence from God himself (as he could on any such occasion, in any matter) what would be wrong with them?

Basically I’m asking; if you take the divination out of these cards, like any rational person would, nothing would be counter to their use in the Catholic Church, correct?

Well, If I understand you you are defining what is rational an irrational based on logic. Many people who think they are “rational” people reject the concept of God because they could define the universe and everything in it as a “random process”.

Statistics and random events do exist. That said… If you believe in God and his son Jesus then the next step is to believe in what they both speak about in the Bible. In the Bible it clearly states that there is a spirit realm that governs the physical realm that we live in right now. God gives us clear instructions about what to do and what to avoid where the spirit realm is concerned. One of the specific things that God says is to stay far away from divination through witchcraft. Tarot is and has always been associated with witchcraft. It is clearly stated in the Bible that those who practice witchcraft will be sent to the lake of fire for eternity as described in this mans experience.

youtube.com/watch?v=ax8-WWQtm4g&feature=PlayList&p=55550ABD6247C55A&playnext=1&playnext_from=PL&index=4

If some in the clergy use tarot cards for guidance then they are just as wrong as any lay person who uses it. If a person uses tarot to guide them they are not basing the results that they seek on random chance. They are looking to a source other than the creator of random chance, the cards… and the universe.

 

[GodIsGracious]

1. I was not judging. Nor was I being self righteous. It’s interesting that when someone says something someone else does not like, that someone else calls the first person “self righteous.”
2. If by “RCC” you mean, “Roman Catholic Church,” please prove that the RCC does not consider these items to be “evil.” Please quote from the Catechism of the Catholic Church.

The thing of it is the RCC does not even consider them evil thus most of my point…anything at all can be thought of as evil for goodness sake even Jesus was considered evil by people.

I read a whole bunch of judging like this “OH thank you Jesus I am not like them”,sound familiar? To me it does…it has everything to do with judging because it is only a opinion you all have ( basing your judgments on) I am neither here nor there to cards , oujia boards or anything like that I believe God gives us gifts and wants us to use them on our own…but so what if the Pope thinks something so what if anyone on this earth thinks its wrong or right its only opinion…its choose your flavor of the week.

“First off, and this isn’t the point we’re talking about, but this is… looks up at the forum name the “Traditional Catholicism” forum. So DannPM31 will be getting Catholic answers and responses. You’re not going to like to hear this, but yours is not a Catholic answer”

To whomever that was who wrote the above you reek of self righteousness I was never barred from joining this forum nor was I told I could not answer…the Traditional stance of the RCC is that the cards are NOT evil but only that we are cautioned to stay away from them as fraudulent people use them,read between the lines…man you people are so misinformed.

Maybe the original poster needed love not judgment.

So I will step away from this ugly thread now so you can all get on with judging everyone into hell,BTW feel free to say I am from the devil it strengthens my faith.

OYE. ROTFL…

 

[sleepingflail]

St. Matthew pray for ALL of us…

 

[melissaanne]

Tarot cards go along with pagan practice and therefore if we were in the 15 th century and you practiced tarot you’d be put to deathif you were Catholic and not following your faith 100%. They were banned somewhere in the 15-18 century around I think the Inqusition in Europe.

 

[dostoyevskyfan]

I play texas hold’em for real money and win. Should I confess this? How is it any different from Tarot cards? I will be going to confession tomorrow.

 

[Claire_from_DE]

I play texas hold’em for real money and win. Should I confess this? How is it any different from Tarot cards? I will be going to confession tomorrow.

Only confess this if you cheat or if you’re letting this hobby take over your life. If either of these are the case, repent and confess and amend your life.

If you win all the time you’re either very lucky or something strange is going on.

Do your poker cards give you information about the future or suggestions about what’s going on in your life? That’s why people use Tarot cards, not to play a game of chance or skill. So there’s the difference.

Christians should base their actions on God’s guidance from church teachings, scripture reading, and prayer, not from reading Tarot cards.

 

[rwoehmke]

Tarot cards? get rid of them. If you want a little harmless fun, just get a regular deck of cards. Why do you have to have tarot cards? Why flirt with the occult?
If you want mysticism, go to the Mass, go to adoration. Read a book on the life of a saint.

I know of at least one Irishwoman,now dead God rest her soul, who told fortunes using an ordinary deck of cards. If the mind set is telling fortunes, whether for fun or profit, it is at least bordering on evil if not evil. Recommend avoiding any kind of fortune telling as in a group no one ever knows who may take it seriously. You can ruin someones life this way.

 

[hockeyfighter21]

stay away from this near occasion of sin no matter how you put it, use of these objects are gravely sinful

 

[sumo_poser]

While I understand the perspectives on both sides of this issue, I think a lot of people have approached it from the faulty assumption that the Tarot is evil because it is used by people in the “occult”. Some people might be unfamiliar with this, but some practitioners of the occult use the Bible, too. That doesn’t mean that the Bible should be defined by this usage.

While the Tarot can be used by some in an attempt to foretell the future, another completely valid way of understanding the Tarot is based on psychological norms and universal truths. It is really no different than a friend offering advice or alternative perspectives. It just happens to be a random falling of the cards in this instance instead of a friend. A good parallel to me is how some people will just open the Bible and put their finger down. Whatever verse they land on, they try to apply that day or they apply it a situation under the assumption that the Holy Spirit has guided these random events. Is that acceptable?*

And to say that we should avoid certain things because they “open doors” or because of their association with some undesirable sect is really ridiculous. It’s a fear-inducing technique that really has no place in adult conversation. You won’t get possessed if you touch a pentagram and the Devil isn’t going to pinch your butt if you own tarot cards.

*BTW…if you answered yes, then you just approved a type of divination called bibliomancy.

 

[mangy_dog]

While I understand the perspectives on both sides of this issue, I think a lot of people have approached it from the faulty assumption that the Tarot is evil because it is used by people in the “occult”. Some people might be unfamiliar with this, but some practitioners of the occult use the Bible, too. That doesn’t mean that the Bible should be defined by this usage.

While the Tarot can be used by some in an attempt to foretell the future, another completely valid way of understanding the Tarot is based on psychological norms and universal truths. It is really no different than a friend offering advice or alternative perspectives. It just happens to be a random falling of the cards in this instance instead of a friend. A good parallel to me is how some people will just open the Bible and put their finger down. Whatever verse they land on, they try to apply that day or they apply it a situation under the assumption that the Holy Spirit has guided these random events. Is that acceptable?*

And to say that we should avoid certain things because they “open doors” or because of their association with some undesirable sect is really ridiculous. It’s a fear-inducing technique that really has no place in adult conversation. You won’t get possessed if you touch a pentagram and the Devil isn’t going to pinch your butt if you own tarot cards.

*BTW…if you answered yes, then you just approved a type of divination called bibliomancy.

This is precisely the kind of dismissive, new age, I’m fine-you’re fine, evil is relative dribble that this current age is full of.

If you are a Catholic or a Christian of any denomination - you need to stay away from Tarot Cards as well as all the other instruments of divination and occultism.

The Bible is the Word of God but, that would escape the mind of anyone who opens it with the purpose of divination. However, the example you pose is legitimate and the Holy Spirit does guide the person who seeks solace and answers to prayers

So I say to thee, " …Ipse venea bibas…"

 

[rinnie]

While I understand the perspectives on both sides of this issue, I think a lot of people have approached it from the faulty assumption that the Tarot is evil because it is used by people in the “occult”. Some people might be unfamiliar with this, but some practitioners of the occult use the Bible, too. That doesn’t mean that the Bible should be defined by this usage.

While the Tarot can be used by some in an attempt to foretell the future, another completely valid way of understanding the Tarot is based on psychological norms and universal truths. It is really no different than a friend offering advice or alternative perspectives. It just happens to be a random falling of the cards in this instance instead of a friend. A good parallel to me is how some people will just open the Bible and put their finger down. Whatever verse they land on, they try to apply that day or they apply it a situation under the assumption that the Holy Spirit has guided these random events. Is that acceptable?*

And to say that we should avoid certain things because they “open doors” or because of their association with some undesirable sect is really ridiculous. It’s a fear-inducing technique that really has no place in adult conversation. You won’t get possessed if you touch a pentagram and the Devil isn’t going to pinch your butt if you own tarot cards.

*BTW…if you answered yes, then you just approved a type of divination called bibliomancy.

Anyone who does this practice is putting their soul in mortal danger. If you do this you are not going to God you are putting someone or something above him. Please re-think this practice. It is not works of God it is works of the devil.

 

[sumo_poser]

This is precisely the kind of dismissive, new age, I’m fine-you’re fine, evil is relative dribble that this current age is full of.

Actually, I’m not a relativist and I’m not really sure where you got that in my message. To say that intention rather than method determines the ultimate moral implications of an action isn’t relativistic. It is, in fact, a consistently orthodox position.

If you are a Catholic or a Christian of any denomination - you need to stay away from Tarot Cards as well as all the other instruments of divination and occultism.

Check. All Christians should avoid the use of candles (used in ceromancy and pyromancy), incense (often used to purify implements of divination and occult practice), chalices (used to hold water for scrying and also used in occult practice), altars (used as consecrated places for divination), basins of water (again, used for scrying such as Nostradamus). Wait…a lot of those tools seem to ring a bell. Just making a point that tool is a tool and it can be used by whomever for whatever.

The Bible is the Word of God but, that would escape the mind of anyone who opens it with the purpose of divination. However, the example you pose is legitimate and the Holy Spirit does guide the person who seeks solace and answers to prayers

So I say to thee, " …Ipse venea bibas…"

The Bible is used by practitioners of divination particularly because they do believe it to be a sacred text.

I should probably note as well that I don’t practice divination. My decision to clarify what I believed to be failures in the debate was strictly because I felt like the tarot was being examined through only one lens and the alternative perspectives (such as using them as images of psychological norms and archetypes and assessing a particular situation in light of those archetypes) were being ignored or rejected without consideration.

And yes, I don’t buy “opening doors” or creating “demonic pathways” or any other concepts that seem to be evangelical scare tactics to keep kids in line. To say that adults can’t discuss or possess certain things without “endangering” their souls is the result of someone watching too many Hollywood movies or implicitly buying the worldview of the new age movement.

 

[mangy_dog]

Actually, I’m not a relativist and I’m not really sure where you got that in my message. To say that intention rather than method determines the ultimate moral implications of an action isn’t relativistic. It is, in fact, a consistently orthodox position.

Check. All Christians should avoid the use of candles (used in ceromancy and pyromancy), incense (often used to purify implements of divination and occult practice), chalices (used to hold water for scrying and also used in occult practice), altars (used as consecrated places for divination), basins of water (again, used for scrying such as Nostradamus). Wait…a lot of those tools seem to ring a bell. Just making a point that tool is a tool and it can be used by whomever for whatever.

The Bible is used by practitioners of divination particularly because they do believe it to be a sacred text.

I should probably note as well that I don’t practice divination. My decision to clarify what I believed to be failures in the debate was strictly because I felt like the tarot was being examined through only one lens and the alternative perspectives (such as using them as images of psychological norms and archetypes and assessing a particular situation in light of those archetypes) were being ignored or rejected without consideration.

And yes, I don’t buy “opening doors” or creating “demonic pathways” or any other concepts that seem to be evangelical scare tactics to keep kids in line. To say that adults can’t discuss or possess certain things without “endangering” their souls is the result of someone watching too many Hollywood movies or implicitly buying the worldview of the new age movement.

Thank you for this follow-up post,

It clearly shows how way off in left field you find yourself. You poor soul…you still pose an ambiguous and relativistic view of [these things] as inocuous if used one way and possibly harmful if used the other way.
Then you go on to talk about the use of candles and chalices in the catholic liturgy and comparing or equating their use to pagan rituals…like I said - Ipse venea bibas.

 

[sumo_poser]

Thank you for this follow-up post,

It clearly shows how way off in left field you find yourself. You poor soul…you still pose an ambiguous and relativistic view of [these things] as inocuous if used one way and possibly harmful if used the other way.
Then you go on to talk about the use of candles and chalices in the catholic liturgy and comparing or equating their use to pagan rituals…like I said - Ipse venea bibas.

Wow…ok. So evidently your accusation that I am a relativist is based on the fact that I won’t acknowledge that cards made of paper and ink (regular paper, regular ink…not sacrificial goatskins and baby’s blood) could possibly have a morally neutral use. (Be reminded that universal negative statements are usually logically invalid)

My statement that morality is defined by intention is not relativism. If it were, then our very definition of “mortal sin” becomes relativistic because it depends on the free choice of the individual to knowingly abrogate the will of God. Without proof of that intention, one could not say that individual committed a mortal sin regardless of the action they took. That is not relativism.

And my noting of the parallel in religious paraphernalia between Catholicism and various occult sects was merely to point out your overly broad anathema on “instruments” of “occultism”. Embrace the fact that when handing down “divine approbations”, you should use some care to provide appropriate clarity. If the mere presence of a thing in the occult sphere of thought or practice makes it off-limits to acceptable Christian practice, then we can’t ignore these problems.

To me it makes more sense to say that the resemblance is a symbol of the seed of truth that exists in all religious practice. And if my saying that all religions contain a seed of truth marks me as a relativist, I will gladly take the stand beside St. Justin Martyr who introduced the seminal logos theory to the Church.

And if my choices are poison or fundamentalist kool-aid, I gladly choose the poison.

 

[mangy_dog]

Wow…ok. So evidently your accusation that I am a relativist is based on the fact that I won’t acknowledge that cards made of paper and ink (regular paper, regular ink…not sacrificial goatskins and baby’s blood) could possibly have a morally neutral use. (Be reminded that universal negative statements are usually logically invalid)

My statement that morality is defined by intention is not relativism. If it were, then our very definition of “mortal sin” becomes relativistic because it depends on the free choice of the individual to knowingly abrogate the will of God. Without proof of that intention, one could not say that individual committed a mortal sin regardless of the action they took. That is not relativism.

And my noting of the parallel in religious paraphernalia between Catholicism and various occult sects was merely to point out your overly broad anathema on “instruments” of “occultism”. Embrace the fact that when handing down “divine approbations”, you should use some care to provide appropriate clarity. If the mere presence of a thing in the occult sphere of thought or practice makes it off-limits to acceptable Christian practice, then we can’t ignore these problems.

To me it makes more sense to say that the resemblance is a symbol of the seed of truth that exists in all religious practice. And if my saying that all religions contain a seed of truth marks me as a relativist, I will gladly take the stand beside St. Justin Martyr who introduced the seminal logos theory to the Church.

And if my choices are poison or fundamentalist kool-aid, I gladly choose the poison.

 

[mangy_dog]

Wow…ok. So evidently your accusation that I am a relativist is based on the fact that I won’t acknowledge that cards made of paper and ink (regular paper, regular ink…not sacrificial goatskins and baby’s blood) could possibly have a morally neutral use. (Be reminded that universal negative statements are usually logically invalid)

My statement that morality is defined by intention is not relativism. If it were, then our very definition of “mortal sin” becomes relativistic because it depends on the free choice of the individual to knowingly abrogate the will of God. Without proof of that intention, one could not say that individual committed a mortal sin regardless of the action they took. That is not relativism.

And my noting of the parallel in religious paraphernalia between Catholicism and various occult sects was merely to point out your overly broad anathema on “instruments” of “occultism”. Embrace the fact that when handing down “divine approbations”, you should use some care to provide appropriate clarity. If the mere presence of a thing in the occult sphere of thought or practice makes it off-limits to acceptable Christian practice, then we can’t ignore these problems.

To me it makes more sense to say that the resemblance is a symbol of the seed of truth that exists in all religious practice. And if my saying that all religions contain a seed of truth marks me as a relativist, I will gladly take the stand beside St. Justin Martyr who introduced the seminal logos theory to the Church.

And if my choices are poison or fundamentalist kool-aid, I gladly choose the poison.

Resemblance of the [seed of truth]; universal negative statements; the occult sphere of thought…

Lets keep it simple - the use of tarot cards as well as the ouija board and other occult instruments are evil and noxious to a life of prayer and a life of the spirit of any christian. Nolo tangere! Not good ,not for divination - not for “entertainment” or even the seemingly innocent excuse of entertainment.

The fulness of truth is in the Eucharist and the Sacraments established by Jesus for His church…by this I stand firm and proclaim here against any intended or unintentional ambiguity to this subject.

Pray the Rosary
Go to Confession
Go to Mass
Recieve Communion
Pray for the souls in Purgatory

Notice that tarot cards are not in that list. Do these things really, really well and there will be no need for [those other things].

…Contra nequitiam et insidias diaboli, esto praesidium…

 

[sumo_poser]

Pray the Rosary
Go to Confession
Go to Mass
Recieve Communion
Pray for the souls in Purgatory

…

…Contra nequitiam et insidias diaboli, esto praesidium…

Here we find a point of agreement. These are undeniably the foundation of all Catholic devotion and I certainly support your recommendation of these foundational elements.

And I agree, that I probably went a little cerebral in my argument there. I do tend to do that when I go on the defensive. But, and accept this with the lighthearted charity that I offer it (and I do mean lighthearted…we can’t lose our senses of humor in all this), it is a little hard to argue simplicity and then toss around dead languages. After all, I’m not throwing Koine Greek around.

The position I was arguing from was not the foundational aspects of devotion, but from recognizing that there additional supplementary practices that relate to our devotional and human lives such as spiritual reading, meditative practices, and even simply psychotheraphy that affect how we conduct our relationship with ourselves and God and in which I acknowledge that there may be some valid place (not necessarily advised or recommended, but valid) for objects like Tarot cards. I simply don’t think we have examined all the ways these cards could be used and therefore I’m don’t support categorical damnation of them.

But, I’ll play the relativist for a second and say that if you find them utterly offensive, then yes, for you, reject them. I’m just not willing to say that the Holy Spirit can’t ever choose to speak to people through them because I don’t get to make that call. As scripture says the Spirit goes where it wills and it rains on the just and unjust alike.

 

[mangy_dog]

Here we find a point of agreement. These are undeniably the foundation of all Catholic devotion and I certainly support your recommendation of these foundational elements.

And I agree, that I probably went a little cerebral in my argument there. I do tend to do that when I go on the defensive. But, and accept this with the lighthearted charity that I offer it (and I do mean lighthearted…we can’t lose our senses of humor in all this), it is a little hard to argue simplicity and then toss around dead languages. After all, I’m not throwing Koine Greek around.

The position I was arguing from was not the foundational aspects of devotion, but from recognizing that there additional supplementary practices that relate to our devotional and human lives such as spiritual reading, meditative practices, and even simply psychotheraphy that affect how we conduct our relationship with ourselves and God and in which I acknowledge that there may be some valid place (not necessarily advised or recommended, but valid) for objects like Tarot cards. I simply don’t think we have examined all the ways these cards could be used and therefore I’m don’t support categorical damnation of them.

But, I’ll play the relativist for a second and say that if you find them utterly offensive, then yes, for you, reject them. I’m just not willing to say that the Holy Spirit can’t ever choose to speak to people through them because I don’t get to make that call. As scripture says the Spirit goes where it wills and it rains on the just and unjust alike.

I understand completely my friend and, you are right - we should keep our wits about us when bringing up our individual points of view.

We live in a time in which it is becoming more and more necessary to “draw the clear battle line” if you will. Psychotherapy is a good thing and church exorcists work hand in hand with such medical professionals to get to the truth of certain human/spiritual ailments.
It is unfortunate that under the guise of “alternate remedies”, somehow the heavy and light elements of occultism have made their way into these viable means.

I do sense the charity in your post, I really do…and, it’s in that same spirit of charity that I tend to emphasize the necessity for clear lines of devotion and practice. They have been and are becoming more vital as time goes on. When I say “time goes on” I truly mean, the time of the Antichrist which is upon us.

I don’t say this in a Mayan or Hopi prophecy kind of way but, in true christian understanding of the signs of these times we live in.

That list I offered - grace is the greatest benefit from those devotions and practices. Grace to have a life of the spirit and a life of prayer. Grace that comes from God. Grace that repels the evil of the times and seeks the Beloved of the soul.

I know you have a very mature, educated and scholarly view of what these divination tools are… I would simply recommend caution

This I say to you in the Love of Christ.