tattoos of Catholic images: sin?

[catholic2]

Quoting bible verses also does not prove your point because, again, unless you are a priest or Jesus, you don’t have the authority to interpret scripture. Don’t quote leviticus unless you live like an orthodox Jew (mmm…this ham sammich is good!!! )
…

We did have another conversation about it first, and I told her that " Most of the people I asked think that it is ok unless it is excessive or obscene."

tsk tsk. I would try to apply scripture, then the opinions of “Most of the people”.

 

[Harmony1988]

wow…I left for a few days and…wow. Thanks for all the opinions!!

I’m pretty sure though, that unless you are either a priest or Jesus, you cannot say “this is a sin.period.the end.” You do not have the authority to say that. Quoting bible verses also does not prove your point because, again, unless you are a priest or Jesus, you don’t have the authority to interpret scripture. Don’t quote leviticus unless you live like an orthodox Jew (mmm…this ham sammich is good!!! )

I asked for opinions…nothing more or less…so please keep them as “I think that…” or “I believe that…” so that no one gets offended by overly-rightous statements. A little humility goes a long way

I asked this because my friend asked me for MY opinion…I asked for YOUR opinions hoping for your thoughts (not holier-then-thou “facts”) as well as verifiable facts from priests or apologists.

Since the origional post, my friend has gotten the tattoo. She got a very simple, very small tattoo of the sacred heart on the underside of her forearm. It does not draw attention and only serves to remind her of her faith whenever she looks at it. We did have another conversation about it first, and I told her that " Most of the people I asked think that it is ok unless it is excessive or obscene."

So unless you want different opinions in order to confuse your friend or yourself more, you can keep asking for it.

Read the quote Jimmy Akin above, it’s clearly explained.

The majority opinion here is that tattooing is not immoral in itself, but maybe, depending on the intention, the content and etc, which is left upto good judgement

There you go.

 

[Harmony1988]

tsk tsk. I would try to apply scripture, then the opinions of “Most of the people”.

Surf(name removed by moderator)ure posted this:

The Leviticus passage is part of the Mosaic Law, which is not binding on Christians (or anybody else these days). Originally the Mosaic Law was binding on the Jewish people only; now it is binding on nobody except insofar as it repeats things that are part of the moral law, having been superceded by Christ.

Many of the precepts of the Mosaic Law are ceremonial and do not belong to the moral law. Their purpose, in many cases, is simply to make the Israelites culturally distinct from the Canaanites who surrounded them. This is one such command. The Canaanites cut their bodies for the dead and made tattoos as part of their religious practice, and this command forbids that in order to make the Israelites unable to participate in Canaanite religious practices.

A prohibition on tattooing is not part of the moral law, however. From a moral perspective, there is no reason why one cannot color one’s skin, which is what tattooing amounts to. One can apply color to one’s skin by make-up (as is common among women), magic markers (as is common among children), press-on tattoos (as are common in Crackerjack boxes), or with real tattoos. The mere fact that the ink goes into the skin in the latter case does not create a fundamental moral difference.
Of course, in doing this there are moral considerations to be factored in: (1) One should not use the tattoo to transmit an immoral message, (2) one should not use an unsafe process to get the tattoo (e.g., dirty tattoo needles that might be carrying who knows what diseases), (3) and one should be generally prudent about getting a tattoo (e.g., what effects will getting this tattoo have on your relationships with others? if you break up with your girlfriend, do you really want her name still on your arm? do you really want a permanent tattoo when they have temporary ones now?). However, the Church doesn’t have a problem with tattooing in principle.

But it seems, you have just missed it

Come to terms my man, you just lost this debate. There is nothing else to whinge about now.

 

[masterjedi747]

Jimmy Akins… claims that tattooing, as long as it doesn’t impair the body’s function is fine …] His position then would be diametrically opposed to an earlier post quoting Father Echert who said that, depending on the degree of tattooing could be a mortal sin. If Akin is correct, it is never a sin, except if it endangers your health to tattoo yourself. If Father Echert is correct and that one could incur a mortal sin defacing yourself with tattoos, then perhaps to the degree that you tattoo yourself, to that degree you sin, starting from a venial one. N’este pa?

Alright, I’m going to try explaining this once, and hope it makes sense.

Tattooing is not a sin per se (as itself).
Tattooing can be a sin per accidens (accidentally).

Example to help explain: A carpenter who is also a doctor builds a table.
The carpenter built the table as carpenter (per se).
You can say “the doctor built the table”, but the doctor did not build the table as doctor (per se). The doctor only built the table per accidens, by virtue of also being a carpenter.

So now, real example: Catholic person getting a tattoo of the devil.
The sin that occurs is not a sin of tattooing (per se).
The sin that occurs is that of idolatry (or whatever), and the tattooing is only a sin accidentally (per accidens)… through association with the sinful action. You can say that “the tattooing was a sin”, but only by virtue of the fact that it is inseparably tied to the sinful act of idolatry.

Tattooing can be a sin… but it’s only a sin accidentally.

Thus, Jimmy Akins and Father Echert are both correct, and not actually in disagreement with one another. It is never a sin per se… but it can be a sin (either mortal or venial) per accidens: if it endangers your health, or is immoderate, or uncharitable, or idolatrous, etc.

 

[surfinpure]

Very eloquently put, masterjedi.

 

[Harmony1988]

I agree

 

[latinmasslover]

HoldenCaulfield,

I would like to know, do you shave? Do you wear clothing made of blended fibers? Do you eat PORK? Do you believe women should leave the city for a week out of the month, during their menstrual cycles?

Exactly how far to do you take the Levitical law in your life?

Well, *my *family would love for me to leave the city for that week out of the month.

 

[surfinpure]

Well, *my *family would love for me to leave the city for that week out of the month.

And I wouldn’t exactly mind a monthly sabbatical!

 

[Sheeniac]

So the question is this; For those of you who have a problem with tattoo’s, If you saw me at a church function (I wear long pants at mass) and I was wearing shorts, would you think differently of me or prejudge my intentions as a faithful Catholic?

Just curios.

No problems with tattoos here and I certainly wouldn’t judge you for it!

 

[catholic2]

Can you guys digest this?

(Quotes from Fr. Robert Levis, Colin B. Donavan STL
Fr. Vincent Serpa O.P., Fr. Echert)

Tattoo
Question from on 06-17-2006: Is getting a tattoo self-mutilation or OK body beautification? Does the Catholic faith allow getting tattoos? Answer by Fr. Robert J. Levis on 06-17-2006: Diane, Yes, the tattoo is self-mutiliation. I believe the sin of tattoo depends on how much of an area of the body is mutilated. E.g. to tattoo one’s toes is not a big deal! To tattoo one’s face is. Fr. Bob Levis

Tattoo
Question from on 04-09-2005: Is getting a tattoo against church teaching? (i chose this forum cause the others were full.) Answer by Fr. John Echert on 04-28-2005: It can be, depending upon it content, location and the intention of the person receiving it. But anything intended to be sexually provocative, contrary to religion, or excessive could very well be a mortal sin. Be careful…
Thanks, James
Father Echert
Tattoos
Question from on 07-01-2004: Is there a scriptural reference to avoid getting a tattoo? Answer by Fr. John Echert on 07-04-2004: I would cite this text from Corinthians:
6:19 Do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit within you, which you have from God? You are not your own; 6:20 you were bought with a price. So glorify God in your body.
A tattoo is an unnecessary, permanent modification of the body given to us by God, which has been sanctified to be made a Temple of the Holy Spirit, through baptism. That, in itself, would argue against tattoos, not to mention the fact that many are contrary to Christianity and nature itself, and many are immodest, in form and location.
Thanks, Robin
Father Echert
re:tattoos
Question from on 12-04-2003:
Father, I’m really sorry, but I just don’t understand your logic. I agree with you that tatoos would be maiming the body, …
Answer by Fr. Robert J. Levis on 12-04-2003:
… My judgment is solidly supported by approved moralists. God bless. Fr. Bob Levis

        **Tattoo as a Catholic Statement?

Question from on 07-09-2003:** Dear Brothers and Sisters,… and Mr. Akin has stated that the Church will not firbid them. Can you find out how I would have Called To Be Holy in Latin? I Love Catholic Answers and EWTN! They helped bring me into the Fulness of the Christian Faith! I call these two Apostolates Fountaints of Grace (of the intelectual kind).
Your little Brother in Christ, Justin S. Steele
Answer by Catholic Answers on 07-09-2003: Dear Justin,
…
Forget the tattoos. There are better things to spend your money on. AND there are more important things to think about! If you need to read what they are, let me know.
Fr. Vincent Serpa, O.P.

      **tattoos and ear piercing for men

Question from on 07-28-2005:**
What does the Catholic Church teach about a boy having his ear pierced? By this I mean just one earring I understand that an excess would not be accepted. Also, what the church teaches about tattoos. Again knowing the excess would not be accepted, but what if someone wanted a cross tattoo on their arm or something of that sort. I have 4 children and have befriended a Catholic family and our views seem to differ on this subject therefore I want to know what the Church teaches and where i would be able to “find it in writing” . I thank you for taking your time to respond it will be greatly appreciated.by me and my family. God Bless Ana G.
Answer by Colin B. Donovan, STL on 08-04-2005:
The virtue of modesty calls for a certain “humility” in behavior and mannerisms, not just for sexual modesty (St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa Theologica, Part II-II, question 160). In addition, we should maintain our dignity as human persons (Catechism of the Catholic Church 2524) through our modesty.
Tatoos and piercings deface the body, and are not generally accepted, even if widely tolerated in our individualistic society. In keeping with St. Thomas, one has to ask if there is pride (or perhaps vanity or rebellion), involved in wanting to be wierdly different. There is, in addition, the medical and moral concern we should have for the integrity of our body (regarding especially the issue of piercings). Finally, as a matter of prudence, many a person who got tattooed (for example, in the military), or pierced, later regreted it for the impression it gave of them to a future spouse or employee.
Although addressing only women, St. Paul’s words to Timothy should give all believers a sense of proper, humble, and therefore modest, Christian dress, adornment and behavior.
1 Tim. 2:9-10 Similarly, women should adorn themselves with proper conduct, with modesty and self-control, not with braided hairstyles and gold ornaments, or pearls, or expensive clothes, but rather, as befits women who profess reverence for God, with good deeds.
Body Piercings
Question from on 11-09-2007:
I’m sure you’ve had this question asked before, but what is the church’s teaching on tattoos and body piercings?
Answer by Fr. Robert J. Levis on 11-11-2007:
Matt, Body piercings are mutilation of the body and obviously sinful. Tattoos may be very small and covered by clothing and so could be less sinful. Large tattoos destroy bodily integrity, are in themselves pagan, and so sinful. Fr. Bob Levis

 

[surfinpure]

catholic2,

Thank you for posting some sources. As you can see, some of us have had no trouble in coming up with our own sources, which rather strongly disagree with the ones you posted. I believe this highlights the critical issue at hand, and that is this: Even the best Catholic apologists disagree on whether or not tattoos are morally wrong.

Why would this be? The obvious and only answer is that there is no official Church teaching on the subject. Sure, there is teaching about vanity and idolatry, but we are talking about tattoing per se, that is, apart from any other condition. The fact that there is no official teaching means that it is left up to the individual to form a decision based on his own conscience and the information and advice he has at hand. I would not exclude the opinions and interpretations of apologists opposed to tattoos, but I would also not exclude those of the ones who are not opposed. Do you catch my drift? A well-informed person would have both types of (name removed by moderator)ut to weigh, as well as the Scriptures, the lives of the saints, and the Catechism.

There is the matter of circumstance (what, where, and why), and there is individual conscience to be considered. Obviously a person getting a tattoo when he believes it to be a sin would be sinning in the violating of his conscience. **But the one thing we cannot now say absolutely is that a tattoo, under all circumstances, is a sin. **

 

[Scott6003]

I think tattoos are ok to have on your body. I don’t think it effects you relationship with God in any way.

 

[holdencaulfield]

I think tattoos are ok to have on your body. I don’t think it effects you relationship with God in any way.

That wasn’t however the question. Are tattoos a sin. Yes, they are.

 

[surfinpure]

That wasn’t however the question. Are tattoos a sin. Yes, they are.

(In holdencaulfied’s personal, private, Catechetically unsupported opinion.)

 

[catholic2]

catholic2,

Thank you for posting some sources. As you can see, some of us have had no trouble in coming up with our own sources, which rather strongly disagree with the ones you posted. I believe this highlights the critical issue at hand, and that is this: Even the best Catholic apologists disagree on whether or not tattoos are morally wrong.

Why would this be? The obvious and only answer is that there is no official Church teaching on the subject. Sure, there is teaching about vanity and idolatry, but we are talking about tattoing per se, that is, apart from any other condition. The fact that there is no official teaching means that it is left up to the individual to form a decision based on his own conscience and the information and advice he has at hand. I would not exclude the opinions and interpretations of apologists opposed to tattoos, but I would also not exclude those of the ones who are not opposed. Do you catch my drift? A well-informed person would have both types of (name removed by moderator)ut to weigh, as well as the Scriptures, the lives of the saints, and the Catechism.

There is the matter of circumstance (what, where, and why), and there is individual conscience to be considered. Obviously a person getting a tattoo when he believes it to be a sin would be sinning in the violating of his conscience. **But the one thing we cannot now say absolutely is that a tattoo, under all circumstances, is a sin. **

The sources that I quoted are from people who are well versed in what they say. Their background, their spirituality, their dedication to truth is rock solid, and you can investigate them yourself in Catholic Answers. As far as I can recall, your lone supporter on an academic level is Akin, and I believe that what he said about tattooing your whole body is ok, as long as it doesn’t impair its function is way short of the moral implications tattooing entails.

For one thing, tattooing your body is against natural law. The disfigurement of tattooing flies against the idea that God has created you and has done it perfectly. To go against this perfection is a mockery. Even if the church does not specifically exclude tattooing, does not mean it isn’t against it. If moralist and teachers of the Church are confronted with this direct question, “Is Tattooing a disfigurement and therefore wrong?”, I am positive that very few would equivocate and point to the fact that our bodies are not ours to mess up.

Another thing…maybe I shouldn’t even mention it here…but… some of the criticism of my position and holdencaulfeld has been quite vitriolic and caustic. I sense a deeper resistance than a normal search for truth here.

 

[latinmasslover]

The sources that I quoted are from people who are well versed in what they say. Their background, their spirituality, their dedication to truth is rock solid, and you can investigate them yourself in Catholic Answers. As far as I can recall, your lone supporter on an academic level is Akin, and I believe that what he said about tattooing your whole body is ok, as long as it doesn’t impair its function is way short of the moral implications tattooing entails.

We’re asking for Church teaching, not the opinions of priests. Other priests - holy, orthodox, well versed, etc - disagree. Church teaching please.

For one thing, tattooing your body is against natural law. The disfigurement of tattooing flies against the idea that God has created you and has done it perfectly. To go against this perfection is a mockery. Even if the church does not specifically exclude tattooing, does not mean it isn’t against it. If moralist and teachers of the Church are confronted with this direct question, “Is Tattooing a disfigurement and therefore wrong?”, I am positive that very few would equivocate and point to the fact that our bodies are not ours to mess up.

So you are as opposed to ear piercings, yes? What about women wearing make up? This adds to the way God created us.

Things can always be worded to make anything look good or bad.

1. Is it disrespectful to God to attend the Novus Ordo Mass?
   or
2. Is it disrespectful for the prayer leader (priest) to offer prayer with his back on the One he’s praying to (God)?

Another thing…maybe I shouldn’t even mention it here…but… some of the criticism of my position and holdencaulfeld has been quite vitriolic and caustic. I sense a deeper resistance than a normal search for truth here.

Because people disagree with you and the opinions of others (note: not Church teaching) means that they don’t care about the Truth? You provide opinions, not Church teaching, and then dump on a view that the Church does not condemn.

Do you oppose ear piercings, fasting, and the scourging performed by the Saints themselves? If not, then you’re view is rather hypocritical.

 

[surfinpure]

The sources that I quoted are from people who are well versed in what they say. Their background, their spirituality, their dedication to truth is rock solid, and you can investigate them yourself in Catholic Answers. As far as I can recall, your lone supporter on an academic level is Akin, and I believe that what he said about tattooing your whole body is ok, as long as it doesn’t impair its function is way short of the moral implications tattooing entails.

Jimmy Akin, Michelle Arnold, Fr. Serpa – also with solid backgrounds and dedication to the truth. Would you disagree, and if so, on what grounds, exactly?

For one thing, tattooing your body is against natural law. The disfigurement of tattooing flies against the idea that God has created you and has done it perfectly. To go against this perfection is a mockery. Even if the church does not specifically exclude tattooing, does not mean it isn’t against it. If moralist and teachers of the Church are confronted with this direct question, “Is Tattooing a disfigurement and therefore wrong?”,** I am positive** that very few would equivocate and point to the fact that our bodies are not ours to mess up.

You are positive. But lots of us are not. You are stating your opinion again. We are discussing morality as set forth by the Magisterium.

Another thing…maybe I shouldn’t even mention it here…but… some of the criticism of my position and holdencaulfeld has been quite vitriolic and caustic. I sense a deeper resistance than a normal search for truth here.

I’m sorry, I wasn’t aware of anyone being vitriolic or caustic. Some of us have some strong opinions on the subject, not the least of whom are you and holdencaulfield. Personally, I have no strong feelings regarding tatttoos either way, but I do have strong feelings about people presuming to legislate morality single-handedly when the Church herself has left the subject alone.

If the Church has been silent on the subject, I find it hard to swallow that one or two of us amateurs ought to make the pronouncement for her.

I know that you and holdencaulfield are only trying to help inform consciences, and I believe that you do it out of love for Truth and God’s law; but we must all be careful not to cross the line that separates “I believe this is the way it is” from “This is the way it is.”

 

[po18guy]

So…I come to CAF to hear opinions! I suppose another question would be, do you think it is tasteful?

Tasteful? Hmmmmm… certainly not my taste. I have neither tattoos, nor the slightest interest in them, since they have a particularly non-Christian origin. I have heard of wearing your beliefs on your sleeve, but in your skin?

We are called to be holy, i.e. set apart. Being covered with tats places you in communion with the Teutals, not with the Saints.

Christ’s peace.

 

[holdencaulfield]

(In holdencaulfied’s personal, private, Catechetically unsupported opinion.)

“Do not cut your bodies for the dead or put tattoo marks on yourselves.” (Leviticus 19:28)

 

[Harmony1988]

“Do not cut your bodies for the dead or put tattoo marks on yourselves.” (Leviticus 19:28)

You are completely clueless, please do not quote things you can’t understand.

A lot of people here + well known DEFENDERS of the faith, have affirmed that ritual law of the mosaic law and that of tattooing pertaining to it NO LONGER applies to us.

If you want to adhere to this Leviticus law, by all means do, but don’t push it on others. Also, don’t cut your beard.

If you do, you are going against Leviticus.

You are seriously like a little child.