Tawheed

[hawk]

Tawheed ar-Ruboobeeyah (Maintaining the Unity of Lordship)

This category is based on the fundamental concept that Allah alone caused all things to exist when there was nothing; He sustains and maintains creation without any need from it or for it; and He is the sole Lord of the universe and its inhabitants without any real challenge to His sovereignty. In Arabic the word used to describe this creator-sustainer quality is Ruboobeeyah which is derived from the root “Rabb” (Lord). According to this category, since God is the only real power in existence, it is He who gave all things the power to move and to change. Nothing happens in creation except what He allows to happen. In recognition of this reality, Prophet Muhammad (saws) used to often repeat the exclamatory phrase “La hawla wa laa quwwata illaa billaah” (There is no movement nor power except by Allaah’s will).

As Christian’s we believe that God is the mover of all things.

The Trinity is the mover of all things, The Persons are resposible for reconciling us to God.

Tawheed al-Asmaa was-Sifaat (Maintaining the Unity of Allaah’s Names and Attributes).

This category of Tawheed has five main aspects:

1. For the unity of Allaah’s names and attributes to be maintained in the first aspect

1. The second aspect of Tawheed al-Asmaa was-Sifaat involves referring to Allaah as He has referred to Himself without giving Him any new names or attributes.

1. In the third aspect of Tawheed al-Asmaa was-Sifaat Allaah is referred to without giving Him the attributes of His creation.

1. The fourth aspect of Tawheed al-Asmaa was-Sifaat requires that man not be given the attributes of Allaah.

1. Maintaining the unity of Allaah’s names also means that Allaah’s names in the definite form cannot be given to His creation unless preceded by the prefix ‘Abd meaning “slave of” or "servant of’.

Only the third and fourth are relevant to us. The rest do not really concern us.

…more to follow…

 

[hawk]

Remember that these rules are somewhat hierarchical.

For instance, if by following the second group of rules you contravene the first rule, that God is indeed the prime mover, then obviously the first rule takes precendence.

This is precisely the case with Jesus Christ.

Allah, God, promises us that He will incarnate in the Old testament.

God in all His loving wisdom,decides that it is fitting and appropriate for Him to incarnate.

This is not something that we attribute to God, this is something that God took upon Himself.
Far be us from deciding what is appropriate or inappropriate behaviour for our Creator.

In this case we are not falsely attributing qualities to God, but ackonledging that He is the prime mover, and is capable of all things.

And should He decide to redeem us to Him, through incarnation and bearing the sins of the world, through the death of an worldly body, who are we to deny this?

Hence we are not attributing anyhting to God, that God Himself did not choose.

There is a huge difference between saying
I think God should look like this

And God choosing to look like it.

I hope my muslim brothers can appreciate this difference.

We say all power to God, and we do not limit Him in anyway.

…more to come…please be patient

 

[Hashi_Al-Eritre]

Hi Hawk,

could u p(name removed by moderator)oint where in the old testament God says he will incarnate himself as a human being?

 

[hawk]

Hashi Al-Eritre:

Hi Hawk,

could u p(name removed by moderator)oint where in the old testament God says he will incarnate himself as a human being?

Sure

For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be upon his shoulder, and he will be called ‘Wonderful Counsellor Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace’" (Is 9:5)

“Behold, a virgin shall conceive and bear a son, and shall call his name Emmanuel” (Is 7:14).

BTW Emmanuel means “God is with us”

Zechariah 12:10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.

This is Allah’s speech, in much the same way as the Quran.

Death of the Messiah

But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.
Isaiah 53:5 (KJV)

In addition, there is all of psalm 22 from start to finish.

 

[Emad]

hawk I haven’t read the entire thing, I plan to do so tonight, but I went through it real quick. I didn’t see Tawheed al Uluhiya. I think you forgot that part. That is very important as almost everyone regardless of their religion believe in Tawheed ar Rububiya, and most of the Asma wa Siffat.

 

[hawk]

Emad:

hawk I haven’t read the entire thing, I plan to do so tonight, but I went through it real quick. I didn’t see Tawheed al Uluhiya. I think you forgot that part. That is very important as almost everyone regardless of their religion believe in Tawheed ar Rububiya, and most of the Asma wa Siffat.

Asalam 'Alaykum Emad,
We are working individuals, as soon as we get a chance we will post it.

 

[hawk]

Tawheed-al-Uluhiya

It is declaring Allah (SWT) as the Only god to whom all acts of worship must be dedicated such as Salat (prayers), Zakat (poor tax), Saum (fasting), Du’a (supplications), Intention, etc.

As far as Christians go, It is important to note, that we believe that communication with people who went before us is possible.

Muslims argue that once a person dies, it is not possible to communicate with them, and they cannot intercede for you.

As Christians we do direct prayer to Mary and the saints, this is done as is in the Bible in Maccabees.

But our prayers are prayers or communication asking them for their intercession with the Lord Jesus.

Surely God can answer all prayers and does not need any interceder, however muslims too ask each other to make du’a or supplications for another.

Then one must ask, is communication with the people in heaven possible?

The answer is a testament of miracles and signs.

How many miracles are performed through the intercession of Mary? Thousands and thousands eveyr year.

This is the most powerful testament to the Truth of our faith.

The all important question though is:

Do we worship other than God?

Even by muslim standards we do not.

Take the Hail holy queen prayer, even in that prayer we say…
Pray for us O Holy Mother of God.

But we do not say, We worship thee O Holy Mother of God.

So yes we believe we can communicate with the dead.
Ofcourse Islam rejects this.

But no we do not worship anything other than God.
So we still maintain the rule of Tawheed-al-Uluhiya

 

[Emad]

Seeking intercession from the dead is against the Islamic concept of Tawheed al Uloohiya. We are allowed to ask people who are alive to pray for us, not for the dead. When you think a dead person buried on the other side of the world hears you, you are assuming he is all hearing and only God is all hearing, therfore it breaks the rule of Tawheed ar Rububiya and Asma was Sifat as well. Case closed.

 

[Ghosty]

When you think a dead person buried on the other side of the world hears you, you are assuming he is all hearing and only God is all hearing, therfore it breaks the rule of Tawheed ar Rububiya and Asma was Sifat as well. Case closed.

This is not true. We assume that God, who is all-hearing and all-powerful, allows these these dead to hear us just as He allows us to breath, and allows the universe to exist. We never, ever believe that it is by their own power that these things happen.

By saying that this can not be the case, you seem to be violating Tawheed ar-Ruboobeeyah, Emad. We Catholics, on the other hand, are utterly submitting to Tawheed ar-Ruboobeeyah, as Scripture indicates that the dead can hear us, and that is within God’s power to allow.

You are following Tawheed al-Asmaa was-Sifaat and ignoring Tawheed ar-Ruboobeeyah.

 

[Faith101]

Ghosty:

This is not true. We assume that God, who is all-hearing and all-powerful, allows these these dead to hear us just as He allows us to breath, and allows the universe to exist. We never, ever believe that it is by their own power that these things happen.

By saying that this can not be the case, you seem to be violating Tawheed ar-Ruboobeeyah, Emad. We Catholics, on the other hand, are utterly submitting to Tawheed ar-Ruboobeeyah, as Scripture indicates that the dead can hear us, and that is within God’s power to allow.

You are following Tawheed al-Asmaa was-Sifaat and ignoring Tawheed ar-Ruboobeeyah.

this is kind of interesting. I was just recently studying the pagan meccans at the time of the Prophet Mohamed peace be upon him…and your responses are the exact thing they said. 1400 years and nothing has changed. interesting.

i dont mean to offend you guys…but i’m just saying your responses have been given 1400 years ago and the rebuttals to your responses are in the Quran…read up if you have the time

 

[Ghosty]

Faith101: Since I can’t read Arabic, and you’ve made it clear that to properly understand it I must understand Arabic, why don’t you post the rebuttals with an explaination here? I think that would make it much easier for everyone, and would have the benefit of making it public.

That being said, I want to know how you can say that the dead can’t hear us by God’s will while maintaining Tawheed ar-Ruboobeeyah. Note that the pagans argued that their gods did have powers of their own, but that they submitted to God. We Christians say no such thing about the saints.

 

[Emad]

039.003
Is it not to Allah that sincere devotion is due? But those who take for protectors other than Allah (say): “We only call upon them in order that they may bring us nearer to Allah.” Truly Allah will judge between them in that wherein they differ. But Allah guides not such as are false and ungrateful.

035.013
He merges Night into Day, and he merges Day into Night, and he has subjected the sun and the moon (to his Law): each one runs its course for a term appointed. Such is Allah your Lord: to Him belongs all Dominion. And those whom ye invoke besides Him have not the least power.

035.014
If ye invoke them, they will not listen to your call, and if they were to listen, they cannot answer your (prayer). On the Day of Judgment they will reject your “Partnership”. and none, (O man!) can tell thee (the Truth) like the One Who is acquainted with all things.

You are doing the same thing that the Arab idol worshipers used to say. We don’t call upon them except that the may bring us clearer to God.

This is not true. We assume that God, who is all-hearing and all-powerful, allows these these dead to hear us just as He allows us to breath, and allows the universe to exist. We never, ever believe that it is by their own power that these things happen.

So you believe that there are others than God who can also hear everything? Lets assume two hundred people are calling them at once, can they hear all of them at once without being confused? This attribute belongs to God and only God.

 

[Emad]

accident

 

[Faith101]

Faith101: Since I can’t read Arabic, and you’ve made it clear that to properly understand it I must understand Arabic, why don’t you post the rebuttals with an explaination here? I think that would make it much easier for everyone, and would have the benefit of making it public.

ohh man! let me explain FOR THE LAST TIME

the Quran says " we have sent down this Quran" an ignorant Christian says “oh my God! seee, God is saying WE, he is referrring to himself as a trinity!!!”

if the Christian understood arabic, he would never make this silly remark.
THAT is what i mean. In terms of recieving guidance from the Quran, the OVER 80 % of Muslims in the world who dont uderstand arabic have no problem with this.

You can read the Quran yourself and find the rebuttals to many of your rejections and concerns already in there. It makes me wonder…there is a book that over 1.3 billion people on this earth believe to be the direct word of God, and you havent read it??

That being said, I want to know how you can say that the dead can’t hear us by God’s will while maintaining Tawheed ar-Ruboobeeyah. Note that the pagans argued that their gods did have powers of their own, but that they submitted to God. We Christians say no such thing about the saints.

Some of the pagans said that all the power that the idols have are from God. They believed that He owned them and owned their powers. There is actually a prayer of theirs that said exactly that.

just direct prayers straight to God…trust me, He can hear you.

 

[Ghosty]

So you believe that there are others than God who can also hear everything?

Nope, I believe that God allows others to hear everything, but that it is not an attribute of these individuals. For example, I can’t speak Arabic, but a translator could allow me to speak with someone who speaks only Arabic. Speaking Arabic is not an attribute of mine, but I can easily communicate with someone who speaks only Arabic by virtue of the attributes of another.

Again, those pagans were giving attributes to the gods that belong only to God, but we are doing no such thing. They believed the gods could hear them by their own power, we do not. The saints hear us because God wills it, and allows our voices to reach them, not because the saints have the attributes of hearing voices all around the world. God is all-powerful, Tawheed ar-Ruboobeeyah, and His will is absolute. If He wills that others hear what is being said, they will hear. If He wills that they hear nothing, or even that I hear nothing, I will hear nothing even though I have ears. In fact, God could will away my very ears, such is His power.

So answer this question: Does God have the power to will our voices to the souls of the dead?

 

[Ghosty]

just direct prayers straight to God…trust me, He can hear you.

We do all the time, trust me. I pose the same question to you, though: Is it within God’s power to allow His creations to hear eachother?

 

[Ghosty]

You can read the Quran yourself and find the rebuttals to many of your rejections and concerns already in there. It makes me wonder…there is a book that over 1.3 billion people on this earth believe to be the direct word of God, and you havent read it??

Not being familiar with the Quran it would be very difficult for me to find the rebuttals easily. Please post them as Emad has begun doing.

 

[hawk]

Ghosty:

Not being familiar with the Quran it would be very difficult for me to find the rebuttals easily. Please post them as Emad has begun doing.

You can read the Quran yourself and find the rebuttals to many of your rejections and concerns already in there. It makes me wonder…there is a book that over 1.3 billion people on this earth believe to be the direct word of God, and you havent read it??

I curious too, about these prayers of the pagans, and also the questions of the pagans.
As well as the rebuttals of Allah to the pagans.

I expect a narration with at least some chain of isnad.

If you bring proof, I expect to see its veracity

 

[hawk]

039.003
Is it not to Allah that sincere devotion is due? But those who take for protectors other than Allah (say): “We only call upon them in order that they may bring us nearer to Allah.” Truly Allah will judge between them in that wherein they differ. But Allah guides not such as are false and ungrateful.

We do not take anything but God as the source and prime mover of all.
Thus we do not take the saints as anything but intercessors

035.013
He merges Night into Day, and he merges Day into Night, and he has subjected the sun and the moon (to his Law): each one runs its course for a term appointed. Such is Allah your Lord: to Him belongs all Dominion. And those whom ye invoke besides Him have not the least power.

I would agree completely with this.

035.014
If ye invoke them, they will not listen to your call, and if they were to listen, they cannot answer your (prayer). On the Day of Judgment they will reject your “Partnership”. and none, (O man!) can tell thee (the Truth) like the One Who is acquainted with all things.

I disagree, invocation for intercession is completely acceptable, the miracles we continue to experience as Christians bear witness to it.

What have muslims to say about intercession not working except that that is written in the Quran?

More important how do muslims explain the hundreds of miracles of healing that take place in Christianity?

Do you want the answer? They go to Christian shrines dedicated to Mary

So you believe that there are others than God who can also hear everything? Lets assume two hundred people are calling them at once, can they hear all of them at once without being confused? This attribute belongs to God and only God.

Tell me do you know that jinns can travel at a very high speed.
Far faster than a human.

Does that make them God? Does it make them all powerful?

In the same way, the spirit is not bound by the limitations of this world, so dont presume to understand its workings.

God is all-hearing and all-seeing. This means that God is omni-scient He knows all past, present and future, even the end of Time.
We do not say that the saints and Mary know all, this is the domain of God and God alone.
What they do know, is from the grace of God alone.
Their intercession is to God alone.

Most important is to note that we pray for intercession, think of it as a phone call to 911.

But the help and prime mover is God alone, and nothing else.

I think Christians uphold this rule of Tawheed more than anyone else.

We truly believe that To God alone is all power, and we will not presume to define His power over anything.

If he allows Mary and the saints the power to intercede for us, how can we question this?

And ofcourse the Truth of our belief is tangible in the thousands of miracles.

Where are the miracles of this nature in islam?
Doesnt it make a muslim wonder?

“If we are the saved sect, then why does God favour them with miracles?, He gave us the Quran, but after that He has forgotten about us, and favours them completely with miracles and signs”

I can tell you, I wondered abou this a long long time. It disturbed me greatly, why arent the muslims receiving these wondrous miracles of healing, or apparitions.
The Christians are mushriks why are they being favoured , when we are the ones that God has chosen to reveal His greatness to.

Then I realised, after realising that even the Quran is false, that islam is not the true faith. It is unfortunately a lie, and in the Bible we are told—

Even if an angel of God was to preach a different Gospel, do not believe him.

This is Christianity being prepared for Islam, it is a prophecy.
The angel, is a fallen angel, a dark angel.

 

[Emad]

Hawk according to the definition of Islam, then you are not fulfilling the Tawheeds. If you want to take the terms and twist them around then that is another issue. However in our terms you are going against all three tawhids. I will not be on this forum after tonight, if you want to continue this with me please visit the WhyIslam forum.