Teaching on the Death Penalty

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If capital punishment is the only way a state can accomplish this, then it IS valid in that sense.

The “lives of others” the state has responsibility for here would especially be the guards and that of the other prisoners.
Self defense does not permit preemptive killing (except perhaps in the most extreme circumstances), which would rule it out as a punishment (solely on those terms), but the stronger argument against it is that even if one is obliged to administer a lethal blow one is still prohibited from intending to kill. In the matter of capital punishment, however, the death of the prisoner is the entire purpose of the action. If you’re going to make the argument from self defense it would seem necessary to adhere to all the criteria that make self defense justifiable.
 
Thanks for your (name removed by moderator)ut Ender.

I will try to thoughtfully consider your points here. Again many thanks.
 
One of my concerns with the way the previous version of 2267 was written is that it gave the impression that the defense of society was what justified capital punishment.

The traditional teaching of the Church does not exclude, presupposing full ascertainment of the identity and responsibility of the offender, recourse to the death penalty, when this is the only practicable way to defend the lives of human beings effectively against the aggressor.

While defense is a legitimate aim of punishment, it is only a secondary objective, and of itself cannot determine the extent of the punishment. In fact 2267 simply ignored what had just been stated in 2266 as to the primary objective of punishment:

The primary scope of the penalty is to redress the disorder caused by the offense.

The phrasing here is unfortunately vague as well, but what “redressing the disorder” actually refers to is retribution. This is why 2266 also says “Legitimate public authority has the right and duty to inflict penalties commensurate with the gravity of the crime.” This is what is called for by retribution, that is, retributive justice, and it is why the State has a duty to inflict such a punishment. Punishment is first a matter of justice, not protection.
 
And given that statement, about its attack on a persons dignity, that’s what makes it look very much like an intrinsic condemnation of the death penalty.
Yes. If the death penalty is an attack on a person’s dignity today, why was it not an attack on a person’s dignity yesterday or during the time of the Inquisition when, according to the book by Charles Lea, you were excommunicated if you opposed burning a heretic at the stake. The Church handed over heretics to the state, knowing full well that they would be burned at the stake and did not oppose such. The Pope was the head of the papal states and as head of the papal states, he had the possibility to stop the execution of people living in the papal states. Why was burning of heretics allowed and not an attack on the person’s dignity ? St. Thomas favored the death penalty for heretics:
In his Summa theologiae II-II, q. 11. a. 3, he writes: “Therefore if forgers of money and other evil-doers are forthwith condemned to death by the secular authority, much more reason is there for heretics, as soon as they are convicted of heresy, to be not only excommunicated but even put to death.”
 
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If the death penalty is an attack on a person’s dignity today, why was it not an attack on a person’s dignity yesterday…
It appears the way the recent change to the catechism gets around this difficulty is not by claiming there is a difference in what constitutes an attack on a person’s dignity between today and yesterday, but that today’s understanding of a person’s dignity is enhanced over what was understood before. As the new 2267 puts it:

Today, however, there is an increasing awareness that the dignity of the person is not lost even after the commission of very serious crimes.

I’m not sure it’s a stronger argument to claim that none of the Fathers or Doctors of the church, as well as none of the 260 odd previous popes properly understood man’s dignity, but that would appear to be the claim.
 
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So if burning heretics was deemed acceptable by the Church before should it been seen as acceptable today?

Slavery was not condemned by the Church for much of it’s history- does this mean that slavery is not wrong?
 
Slavery was not condemned by the Church for much of it’s history- does this mean that slavery is not wrong?
There are several degrees of doctrines and teaching within the church, and surely you would acknowledge the difference between not saying something is wrong and positively saying something is right. The doctrine regarding the right of States to employ capital punishment is as old as anything in the church, has been unchanged and acknowledged by all of the Doctors of the church (who have written about it) and virtually all of the Fathers. This doctrine is not changeable.

There are certain moral norms that have always and everywhere been held by the successors of the Apostles in communion with the Bishop of Rome. Although never formally defined, they are irreversibly binding on the followers of Christ until the end of the world. Such moral truths are the grave sinfulness of contraception and direct abortion. Such, too, is the Catholic doctrine which defends the imposition of the death penalty. (Fr. John Hardon, 1998)
 
So the death penalty is different than killing of heretics and slavery.

These are changeable but the Churches view on the death penalty is not?
 
So the death penalty is different than killing of heretics and slavery.

These are changeable but the Churches view on the death penalty is not?
Yes, the teachings on the death penalty are in fact different than those on slavery and the killing of heretics. This comment from the First Vatican Council applies to the former but not to the latter two.

And as the things which the Holy Synod of Trent decreed for the good of souls concerning the interpretation of Divine Scripture, in order to curb rebellious spirits, have been wrongly explained by some, We, renewing the said decree, declare this to be their sense, that, in matters of faith and morals, appertaining to the building up of Christian doctrine, that is to be held as the true sense of Holy Scripture which our Holy Mother Church has held and holds, to whom it belongs to judge the true sense and interpretation of the Holy Scripture; and therefore that it is permitted to no one to interpret the Sacred Scripture contrary to this sense, nor, likewise, contrary to the unanimous consent of the Fathers.

There was no consent among the Fathers on slavery or killing heretics. There was on capital punishment.
 
The execution of heretics was an application of the doctrine on the death penalty–a prudential judgement in that case that heresy would cause sufficient harm to the social order to warrant it. The circumstances, and therefore the prudential judgment, changed. To be fair to the people at the time, because orthodoxy was so interwoven in the social order, they experienced heresy leading to grave social disorder, violence, and bloodshed (see what happened after the Reformation as an example). Obviously, that is no longer the case now.

Slavery is a bit of a different issue. There’s nothing contrary to the natural law about one person owning title to all the services that another person could reasonably render for his lifetime, provided the title was acquired justly and the slave was treated like a human being–and there still isn’t. However, because experience showed this good form was so rare, it had other attendant evils that almost always accompanied it, and wage based service proved a better method, just slavery became left to the theoretical and the church worked for its abolition everywhere. But to this day, the CCC is appropriately narrow on slavery to not have the just kind fall under its condemnation.
 
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We are bound by the living Magisterium. The revised Catechism of the Catholic Church does not teach that the death penalty is intrinsically evil (though admittedly one could almost believe that was the Holy Father’s intent)…it teaches that it is inadmissible. I would say that in light of previous Magisterial teaching, we cannot consider the death penalty to be intrinsically evil, but we are now bound to oppose its use, as the prudential judgment of the Church, in the here and now. When it comes to the application of the Church’s social doctrine, the current Catechism does take precedence over previous catechisms.

When most people today here the word “slavery”, the mind automatically goes to the institutionalized slavery of entire races within a colonial / imperialistic context. The Church certainly never taught that every single member of a particular ethnic group or of a particular skin colour should, on principle, be enslaved…as was believed by many individual Christians at one point.
The Church was more comfortable with Roman style slavery, in which men and women of various backgrounds could find themselves enslaved for this or that reason.
 
I would say that in light of previous Magisterial teaching, we cannot consider the death penalty to be intrinsically evil, but we are now bound to oppose its use, as the prudential judgment of the Church, in the here and now.
But the prudential judgment is based on an area in which the Church has no competency, authority, or expertise… the condition and state of advancement of every criminal justice and detention system in the world is not a matter of faith and morals nor is it within the purview of the Church’s teaching authority.
 
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You’ll have to back up that assertion… and also explain why you’re certain the Pope was in error when he ordered the revision of the Catechism…
 
There’s nothing contrary to the natural law about one person owning title to all the services that another person could reasonably render for his lifetime, provided the title was acquired justly and the slave was treated like a human being–and there still isn’t.
I would not go along with enslaving people. Regardless of what the natural law says, IMHO, it is wrong for a white European slave owner to hold title to a young black African female slave even if the title was acquired justly. I don’t understand why some Roman Catholics today don’t see the injustice here.
 
I am not sure since I don’t see any way to reconcile slavery. I have heard some people use the gospels and parables in their arguments. The only thing I can figure is a type of slavery that is not race based and functions more as a servant than slave. That seems to be more reflective of the slaves of the gospels and parables. What we think of as slavery now seems indefensible to me.
 
I think we might be be defining terms differently. Given the rest of your comment, it seems you might have been giving it the narrower definition which only includes the unjust form (which in fairness to you is the most common usage these days). But what you quoted from me, even if we don’t call it slavery, is not per se unjust.

The most obvious example of a just acquisition of title to services (it is contrary to the natural law to have title to a person) is a voluntary exchange. If you have an employer, your employer has title to some services from you during a limited period of time. You voluntarily exchanged this title likely for payment of a certain wage and other benefits. Is this unjust? Of course not. Just as we can voluntarily exchange some reasonable services for a limited period time, so can we voluntarily exchange all the reasonable services we might provide for a lifetime–say, in exchange for a lifetime of food, shelter, clothing, medical care, etc. There’s nothing per se wrong with this (although it presents lots of opportunity for abuse, as history shows).

Some period of involuntary service (again, provided that service be reasonable, etc.) is also not always unjust, say, as punishment for a duly convicted crime (the US Constitution, for example, provides for this to this day).

I don’t think slavery as practiced in the US met the definition of just. Title was usually not acquired justly. Unreasonable services were required. People were treated like chattel (families separated, cruel animalistic practices like bits were employed, etc., etc.). As I mentioned in my prior post, experience in general showed the just form to have become merely theoretical, which is why the Church rightly advocated for its abolition everywhere (and why when we hear the word slavery today we have a good revulsion for it like you expressed, we don’t even think of just forms of lifetime servitude).
 
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We are bound by the living Magisterium. The revised Catechism of the Catholic Church does not teach that the death penalty is intrinsically evil (though admittedly one could almost believe that was the Holy Father’s intent)…it teaches that it is inadmissible. I would say that in light of previous Magisterial teaching, we cannot consider the death penalty to be intrinsically evil, but we are now bound to oppose its use, as the prudential judgment of the Church, in the here and now.
Given that you recognize this teaching is a prudential judgment you must surely accept what the church herself says about what level of assent is due such judgments.

“Prudential” has a technical theological meaning … It refers to the application of Catholic doctrine to changing concrete circumstances. Since the Christian revelation tells us nothing about the particulars of contemporary society, the Pope and the bishops have to rely on their personal judgment as qualified spiritual leaders in making practical applications. Their prudential judgment, while it is to be respected, is not a matter of binding Catholic doctrine. To differ from such a judgment, therefore, is not to dissent from Church teaching. (Cardinal Dulles, 2001)
When it comes to the application of the Church’s social doctrine, the current Catechism does take precedence over previous catechisms.
I don’t think this is accurate.

“The individual doctrines that the catechism affirms have no other authority than that which they already possess.” (Cardinal Ratzinger

This new “teaching” is not based on any authority other than the personal opinion of the current pope.
 
Um, well the Pope and Bishops think it is.

I’ll stick with them on this.
 
I read this thread fully. Rather than come up with another death penalty thread, this is interesting in Tennessee:


So, in this inmate’s case (they can not always made this decision), he is choosing the electric chair.

I will go, generally, with what the Pope says and I will be against the death penalty. I lean that way already though I think some killings are exceedingly vile. Some cases are much different than each other.
 
Pope Francis changes teaching on death penalty, it’s ‘inadmissible’
In reading the Bible it seems that God has commanded the death penalty in certain cases. For example: Deuteronomy 22:22-25.
22 If a man is found sleeping with another man’s wife, both the man who slept with her and the woman must die. You must purge the evil from Israel.

23 If a man happens to meet in a town a virgin pledged to be married and he sleeps with her, 24 you shall take both of them to the gate of that town and stone them to death—the young woman because she was in a town and did not scream for help, and the man because he violated another man’s wife. You must purge the evil from among you.

25 But if out in the country a man happens to meet a young woman pledged to be married and rapes her, only the man who has done this shall die.
It seems that these are commandments of God? Are they not?
Do these commandments of God still hold, or did God change His mind so that they no longer hold today?
 
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