Ted Haggard scandal

[Steadfast]

No apology, more pride and stubborness, I find it ironic that you do exactly what you seem to get mad at others for.

Someone calls Luther insanse, you call Saint John Vianney retarded (which the MOD rightly erased and closed down the thread for). Someone brings up Pastor Ted Haggard, leader of American Evangelicals engaging in meth induced gay romps, you bring up priest scandal, THEN you have the audacity to critique Cestusdei for using the “see but you do it too defense”, the hypocrisy is astounding.

It’s pretty obvious you’re here to make noise and little esle, I’ll just ignore you.

You have a point here.

In mentioning what certain biographers have said about Vianney’s intellectual faculties in response ot criticism of Luther, I have done exactly the kind of thing I am chiding CestusDei for.

I accept your correction and publicly apologize.

I hope though that when I encounter remarks like the one’s made about Luther in that thread, the ones making those remarks will accept correction for the sake of charity if for no other reason.

Luther may have been unstable and Vianney may have been mildly retarded. Then again they may not have been. It’s frank calumny to mention either point for no reason other than to provoke ones dialogue partner and I am very sorry for having succumbed to it.

 

[cestusdei]

steadfast, given that you can find no example of gloating then why should I be ashamed for reporting a newsworthy event? I suspect you are right. You Protestants will continue to bash Catholicism over scandals while ignoring your own. It is you who should be ashamed.

 

[Steadfast]

steadfast, given that you can find no example of gloating then why should I be ashamed for reporting a newsworthy event? I suspect you are right. You Protestants will continue to bash Catholicism over scandals while ignoring your own. It is you who should be ashamed.

What, to your way of thinking would qualify as gloating?

Because, clearly, we have different ideas about what the word means. You are clearly pleased that a high profile Protestant leader has fallen to sexual sin. I certainly haven’t seen you give any indication otherwise.

You, however, have no problem at all in bearing false witness when, for example you call me a fundamentalist and accuse me of bashing your Church over the priestly sex abuse scandal.

Again, and maybe you missed it the first time I asked for it, perhaps you could provide an example of my giving evidence of being a fundamentalist and of expressing delight over your church’s recent scandal.

When you’ve provided me with these three things instead of invective and baseless accusation, I’ll satisfy you with an apology. Until then to do so would be to violate my consience because you have yet to demonstrate that I have anything to apologize for.

 

[cestusdei]

Steadfast, I think you did miss it. Please check the post where I quoted you. As of yet you have been unable to show where I said I was “pleased” about Haggard’s scandal. Does that mean that it should not have been covered in the news? Do you mean to say we cannot cover a scandal unless it is Catholic? Forget about the apology. You won’t give one no matter what. It is a waste of time asking for one from you. I will have to be satisfied that you have proved me correct. Thanks.

 

[here_i_stand]

steadfast, given that you can find no example of gloating then why should I be ashamed for reporting a newsworthy event? I suspect you are right. You Protestants will continue to bash Catholicism over scandals while ignoring your own. It is you who should be ashamed.

This whole thread is pretty disappointing and filled with generalizations. I’m not saying we shouldn’t talk about it because we need to discuss things such as this (hopefully with love and charity). The fact of the matter is we are ALL sinners who need the forgiveness of sins through Jesus Christ. He loved THE WORLD enough to suffer death FOR US!! Doesn’t that humble us enough to want to show just a little bit of that for others? Those who call all Catholic priests pedophiles are obviously wrong. It is also wrong to assume that all Protestants ignore their own scandals. The fact of the matter is this is just more fuel for the fire for the liberal media against Christianity and NONE of us should be happy about that.

And this is his command: to believe in the name of his Son, Jesus Christ, and to love one another as he commanded us.
(I John 3:23)

 

[Stephen_C]

I think we all need to chill out a little here. You both make good points. I don’t think anyone who is Christian should be gloating over this. And I don’t think Cestusdei is. I think he is responding to what he has seen as a Catholic, how the sex scandal was played out in the media. And how some non-Catholic’s took it and ran with it from there. I also think the only reason this made athe national news was the fact Ted was a national figure. If it was a Pastor in some small town USA we would have never known it. (I don’t think we need to know) But if it was a Catholic Priest at the Catholic Parish in that same small town, it would be front page on all the news wires. And it would be the first thing I would hear from my non-Catholic friends and co-workers.
Steadfast, I take you on your word that you have not gloated over the “sex scandal” in the Catholic Church.
So let’s all just move forward. Pray for Ted yes but let’s move on.

 

[cestusdei]

Fine by me. If my point hasn’t been made by now it won’t get made.

 

[Steadfast]

Steadfast, I think you did miss it. Please check the post where I quoted you. As of yet you have been unable to show where I said I was “pleased” about Haggard’s scandal.

Your reference showed me nothing.

Does that mean that it should not have been covered in the news?

Your retreat into histrionics and grandstanding (again) is duly noted. Who has said that such things shouldn;t be reported in the news whomever the culprit?

Do you mean to say we cannot cover a scandal unless it is Catholic?

Ditto.

Forget about the apology. You won’t give one no matter what. It is a waste of time asking for one from you. I will have to be satisfied that you have proved me correct. Thanks.

Fine, don’t apologize, just show me where I’ve expressed delight over the priestly sex abuse scandal.

Show me how I’m a fundamentalist.

Show me where I’ve said or even suggested that the Haggard story shouldn’t be reported in the news.

You’re bearing false witness and last time I checked, priests were accountable to the Ten Commandments as much as anyone else.

 

[cestusdei]

On the other hand steadfast has made my original point.

 

[Steadfast]

Fine by me. If my point hasn’t been made by now it won’t get made.

What is your point anyway?

Even if we accept your disengenuous claim that you just hope this will even the playing the field (as selfish and childish a claim as this might be), whoopdyfrickindoo.

 

[carol_marie]

This thing with Pastor Haggard is not going to change anyone’s opinion of what happened in the Catholic Church because the two aren’t even similar. Pastor Haggard was caught using drugs & cheating on his wife with a man. He was removed from his position of authority.

The Catholic Church had numerous Priests sexually abusing the youth of their parishes and when their superiors were made aware of their activities, rather than removing them as Priests, they just moved them to another parish where they were able to abuse MORE children over & over & over again.

I am THRILLED that it got the media attention that it did because finally it seems that things might be handled differently. Without the media & the lawsuits that followed why should we believe that they would’ve taken steps to protect our children - they didn’t for years.

I am sorry that people yell “Pedophile” at you on the street Father. That is just awful. But make no mistake… we have the perverted Preists & leadership of the Church that turned a blind eye for decades to blame for that. It has nothing to do with Fundamentalists.

 

[cestusdei]

Sigh…the point is that fundamentalists point to the scandals to show that Catholicism is false. It is a weapon in their armory of anti-Catholicism. With this scandal, it was to be hoped, they would be more hesitant to do that for fear the logic would impale themselves. Scandals among fundamentalist and Protestant clergy are not infrequent. They often forget that. So, that’s the point. I have said it as many different ways as I can. This isn’t about Ted per se. It’s about anti-Catholicism.

 

[Eliza10]

I never said you were gloating. If anything, it’s a weak, childish argument. Throwing someone’s bad behavior at them and using it to characterize an entire group of people like you say you want to do in the first post here is just as wrong as someone looking at your collar and calling you a pedophile. All I’m saying is that if you act like the people who are being nasty to you, you come off as badly as they do. Take the moral high ground.

Amen. Taking the moral high ground is whats called for. For anyone, but if you are a priest, you are held to even higher standards!

 

[Eliza10]

steadfast, given that you can find no example of gloating then why should I be ashamed for reporting a newsworthy event? I suspect you are right. You Protestants will continue to bash Catholicism over scandals while ignoring your own. It is you who should be ashamed.

The example Aurora77 gave in #93 is not exactly gloating, but its where the person got that idea most likely. Its not gloating, but its not nice either. Two wrongs don’t make a right!

You’re saying “You Protestants” is not a way to talk.

The whole thread is argumentative. It was started on an uncharitiable note, and it has drawn uncharitable arguments.

I don’t like seeing this thread here.

 

[cestusdei]

I suggest you read my responses.

 

[ribozyme]

Why because he is married and has kids…you do know that the old NJ Governonr was gay and married twice and had kids…makes no difference many gays hide behind a marriage becuase they are afraid to “come out”

Well, I think he is guility now. In my initial response, I did not deny it. I think it is healthy if one demands more evidence for a somewhat extraordinary claim. Couldn’t the person making the allegations be lying? It is a possibility too.

 

[bella5110]

bella5110;1635685:

The purpose of this thread is to show other non-Catholic faiths that it happens in EVERY religion. /QUOTE]

I certainly hope that that is not the point of this thread. Surely, it goes without saying and saying it seems a bit immature, like going “haha” during someone else’s tragic experience.

It’s on the news; he’s famous; he’s politically influential so we’re talking about it. However, I also hope we are learning from it. It really highlights for me how little discipline there is within our church; I know of theology students who are involved in church ministry who are openly living with their boyfriend, and there seems to be complete silence about this in our church.

Kendy

But the point of this thread IS to show other faiths it happens, and there are more than this but you only hear about Haggart. Going “ha ha” during someone elses tragic experience I did not intend to do, but figures you would look at it that way. non-Catholics always see another view. pity. :nope:

 

[Steadfast]

Sigh…the point is that fundamentalists point to the scandals to show that Catholicism is false. It is a weapon in their armory of anti-Catholicism. With this scandal, it was to be hoped, they would be more hesitant to do that for fear the logic would impale themselves. Scandals among fundamentalist and Protestant clergy are not infrequent. They often forget that. So, that’s the point. I have said it as many different ways as I can. This isn’t about Ted per se. It’s about anti-Catholicism.

No, it’s not about anti-catholicism, it’s about sin, whatever the uniform worn by the sinner, and maybe this is the crux of your error.

In your haste to make polemical points with this you have stooped to exactly the kind of behavior you accuse “fundamentalists” of.

I’m still waiting for you to:

1. show me what I have said that would lead you to conclude that I am a fundamentalist,
2. how I’ve taken delight in the Catholic sex abuse scandal and
3. where I’ve said that only cases of Catholic priests committing such sins should be considered newsworthy.

You’ve made all three of these charges against me personally.

For my part, all I’ve said is that you were gloating; your attempt to retreat behind a justification that maybe now “Fundamentalists” will be nicer to you is as telling as it is shameful.

 

[cestusdei]

Actually that’s close to the point I was trying to make. As I noted you stated I deserved whatever happened to me in reference to my being harassed on the street. Seizing the moral high ground? I will consider dealing with your issues when you deal with the ones I challenged you on. But that isn’t going to happen is it?

 

[Steadfast]

Cestus,

In this thread you’ve loaded me with insults, accusing me of all kinds of stuff. I haven’t reported you for doing so because I don’t think it would matter (the double standard on this board is blatant) and because it wouldn’t alter your basic perspective which seems to be that it’s permissible to say whatever you like about someone as long as they’re Protestant.

As for my comment that you deserve everything you get, it was made before I realized that you were a priest. Since then I have said that you should not be harrassed and you do not deserve to be screamed at when people see your collar.

If this will not suffice as a retraction then let me say publicly that I apologize for saying you deserve whatever you get and I take it back. You don’t deserve it.

Now, will you tell me where I’ve shown myself to be a fundamentalist, where I’ve said that only cases of Catholic sexual misconduct are newsworthy, and where I’ve demonstrated myself to be “delighted when a priest falls into scandal and…use(d) it against” you?