Teen Confirmation, "I know it all."

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Well, I know that at that age, I often thought I had all the answers. While I acknowledge that I didn’t, I stand by my frustration at adults who were unwilling to listen to me when I thought I knew what I was talking about. For starters, if an adult listened to what I had to say, I would have either proven that I knew what I was talking about or demonstrated to myself that I didn’t have all the answers.

Why not try inviting this student of yours to share his experience with the other students in the confirmation class? Place some value on his experiences rather than trying to convince him to jump through hoops that he doesn’t think he need to try. Give him the chance to demonstrate what he does know, and he might just figure out that he has things to learn. Heck, maybe he does know it all. Weirder things have happened.

Eamon
 
To the first part that is one of the few things the OP told us: the time he spoke up in class was during the small-group/faith sharing exercise. To that extent we cannot assume he is wrong. (Doesn’t mean he is altogether in the right, we just have to err that way).

There are ways to make adjustments mid course (without doing away with Oneight this year). Parts of the program that are fluff can be replaced with more in depth coverage of topics. Small group can give way to adoration. Actually, if the young man in question were here, I would advise him to talk to Father about doing his own prep for Confirmation.
If you mean that this is all second-hand information, then you’re right: we cannot know. So let’s keep the point up front that we can only speak in theoretical terms about theoretical 17 year olds, theoretical youth ministers, and theoretical pastors. There is always a twist when you’re dealing with the actual birds in the field, and that is important for you to have pointed out.

IN THEORY: I’d tell him to be respectful tonight, and if he thinks the curriculum below him, he can talk tomorrow to someone who might be able to change things for him. I would probably advise him that his chances are not nearly so good if he doesn’t have his parents on his side on this endeavor. If his parents and/or the pastor decided to go to bat for him and ask me to make an exception, fine. I like to help people get more out of their educational opportunities, rather than go through the hoops and get less. I have found that going out on a limb on my own for someone who approaches me with a bad attitude, though, too often falls in the category of “no good deed goes unpunished.” They are much less likely to saw the limb off behind you if they’re further out on it than you are. (It happens, but at least you can have the look on their face as the both of you go hurtling to the ground…life is too short to avoid all risk, so you take your thrills where you get them.)
 
Ask him to recite the Catechism to you. It may just bring the point home.
 
Why not try inviting this student of yours to share his experience with the other students in the confirmation class? Place some value on his experiences rather than trying to convince him to jump through hoops that he doesn’t think he need to try. Give him the chance to demonstrate what he does know, and he might just figure out that he has things to learn. Heck, maybe he does know it all. Weirder things have happened.

Eamon
You have to pass the practical exam before you can say you know it all. There are kids who seem to have been on this earth before, but this one doesn’t seem to be one of them.

If he knew it all, he wouldn’t be handling things this way. You can be able to recite the Baltimore Catechism backwards and forwards, and there is a lot of “it” you might have missed.

With my own kids, who are ten, I invite them to look at things from the* other person’s* prospective, and think of a way to get the person with the vote they need to vote their way. “OK, you don’t want to jump through the hoops. Fine. Do you think the way you’re doing this is going to make anyone else feel the same way? What is another way to handle this?” They are not rewarded for whining or complaining. Even when it works, that is manipulation, not win-win. Learning to think how to make what you want into a win for the person who is in a position to help you is a way to make the world want to listen to you, a life skill worth learning, and not one that needs to be in violation of any of the virtues.
 
Ask him to recite the Catechism to you. It may just bring the point home.
You know I was thinking something along the same line. If he’s so smart than he should also know that pride is one of the 7 deadly sins. Anybody who thinks they know it all can’t be further from knowing it all. It also shows a lack of humility that which we need to obtain salvation. I’ll admit that I’m one smart cookie among my peers, but dagum I surely don’t know it all. Even if I did “know it all” I would still take the class so I can help out my peers. Not boast about how holy my brain is.
 
I’m surprised by the suggestions to make the kid “prove it.” Sounds like a sure-fire way to make him mad and unreceptive to other feedback.

Eamon
 
This young person might know all there is to the lifeteen program confirmation text. I have learned that just by having an imprimatur does not guarantee correct information. Our RE text state that manna grows on trees/bushes… It has all the credentials.

At our parish, the teens know that they need to be respectful of everyone. That is a ground rule that they all understand.

The confirmation prep text we have is seriously below their intelligence level and outdated. So… We use the basic info and build on it and make it relevant to their lives.

I usually start by writing a self reflection on the whiteboard that they must finish. This week it was "when I see a crucifix, It reminds me of … and they finish their thought. They are highly encouraged to share and most do.

I have group discussions, sometimes a video clip, journaling, and the rosary. We also have a coffee can with questions they might have… They are curious and have thought filled questions and answers.

I use the Catechism, and the Bible and they look up scripture and references. This also prepares them to find things for themselves … (don’t we teach them how to use dictionaries, thesauruses(sp?) Most struggle to find the gospels…YIKES!

Keeping it relevant without watering it down is hard. Pray for them. We lose some many of our youth to poor catechesis. Tell your friend to plant the seeds and let our Lord grow them…

Praying for our youth.
-Crystal
 
I’m surprised by the suggestions to make the kid “prove it.” Sounds like a sure-fire way to make him mad and unreceptive to other feedback.

Eamon
It would only work if the challenge were not essentially sarcastic: that is, if there was a way to actually test out of the requirement, and the youth minister were in a position to point him in that direction. Otherwise, whether or not he can recite the Catechism chapter and verse is irrelevant. Even so, that is something for after class.
 
Hi everybody! My name is Marcie, and while this opportunity to catechize isn’t my own, I am writing on behalf of a fellow youth minister who has encountered a ‘problem’, per se, with a 17-year old (HS junior) whose attitude in the Confirmation prep class is, well, less than stellar. It’s in the basement, actually. He professes to “know it all” and thinks his Confirmation preparation can take place on a single Saturday, because after all, he has been an altar server since 3rd grade, and he knows it all. Those were his words to me last week, and to his small group leader last night.

This particular class of confirmation candidates (all at least high school juniors) have very poor attitudes about, it seems, anything and everything that pertains to the Faith. And the fact that they do not mind sharing/showing their apathy toward their Catechists (to the point of being downright disrespectful) is very sad and disheartening to me. Selfishly, I’m glad I’m not one of those Catechists; however, they are all friends of mine, and this situation weighs heavily upon my heart. With all of that in mind, I am writing to this forum in hopes of gleaming some outside insight into situation, along with a plausible approach to making these swords into plowshares.

FWIW, the pastor of our cluster (2 parishes) believes that Confirmation is a true rite, and little to no prep is necessary. However, it is the bad attitudes of this entire class (with the exception of 2 students–no joke) that is truly testing that team’s patience and their commitment to continue in this ministry.

TIA so much for any insight you can provide! Take care, enjoy the rest of your day and praised be Jesus Christ! (Now and forever!)

Peace be with you,
-Marcie
Wow, I would *not allow *them to be confirmed with such an attitude. They can either go to another church (non-Catholic) or the team tells them to postpone Confirmation until they GROW UP!!
 
Wow, I would *not allow *them to be confirmed with such an attitude. They can either go to another church (non-Catholic) or the team tells them to postpone Confirmation until they GROW UP!!
Of course you write merely to vent utter frustration, but I think we would both give especially good odds that the youth minister does not have carte blanche to invite any troublesome teens in the program to choose between a) switching their noodles and b) exploring the practice of other faiths until they do! :eek:

Whether a particular person is accepted as a candidate for confirmation is also probably not the decision of the poor youth minister charged with running the program into which a 17 year old might come with such an attitude. I have my own opinion on that (oh, big surprise there! :rolleyes:), but it doesn’t help us much to have an opinion unless someone is going to consult us. They won’t.

I submit that having an opinion on how one will let a 17 year old treat us as teachers or group leaders is another matter altogether. (IMHO! :D)
 
What in the responses gave you that impressioin?
Hi 1ke,
Perhaps the response as quoted below:
1ke:
The priest and the kid are right about sacramental prep …
Perhaps what the class is telling their leaders is that they are bored because indeed they have heard this all before … Maybe it’s time to examine your program…And, what the heck is a small group leader? What do they do? … Also, can you give any specific behavior examples of students? “Bad attitude” is rather vague.
CDNowak:
A personal note, I sympathize very much with the know-it-all. I was homeschooled through seventh grade and knew as much as, if not more, than my teachers in CCD and eighth grade about Catholicism. I even had classes in seminary where I could have argued finer points with the professor.
In response to the first quote, I don’t agree that it’s correct, because they may be right about the intellectual level of the material, however the motivation or intent seems false and disingenuous regarding that 17 year-old. From the words and behaviour attributed to him, it sounds like he simply ‘doesn’t care’ to be quite frank, as his persistent apathetic, presumptuous, ignorant and uncharitable attitude seems to indicate that he’s not so much eager to seek a more intense learning experience, but rather determined to express his discontent of having to be in class. Meaning, it doesn’t look like he wants to learn, more or, at all.
Bad attitude is quite vague, however generally speaking, it refers to the stereotypical apathy and ignorance of the western pop-culture induced teenager. It’s pandemic, almost archetypal, and its a deadly persona so commonly assumed by the youth which involve a disproportionate amalgamation of ignorance, apathy, presumption, pride, envy, anger, sloth, lust, superficiality, insensitivity, disrespect, dishonour, blindness, crudeness, indifference, laziness, hate, half-heartedness, insolence, contempt and self righteousness (not excluding etc) all acting to kill off the Christian spirit in some way or another.

I think the point that Mamamarcie was trying to stress was that this 17 year old was being:
(1) Disrespectful - as she referenced the Fourth Commandment which the CCC explores quite beautifully.
(2) Uncooperative - regarding his concerns about the teaching material in which if his claims were indeed legitimate, then he went about dealing with it incorrectly. As his behaviour was detrimentally the reverse, not being eager, constructive or enthusiastic. By proclaiming to the few that he “knows it all”, he is putting himself in a position that says he doesn’t need any help, but rather that he can help himself.
(3) Proud - lacking the basic foundation on which the learning of God and the Catholic Faith must rest upon, being humility. There is no valid excuse to commit the sin of presumption or that of pride in self-knowledge. One never knows all, that’s impossible, as it admits a lie that one can reach a point or place where one cannot learn anything or any more. As learning is not always about the curriculum material, it always includes factors overlying this like the spiritual, the moral, the social, the pedagogical, philosophical, one’s character, the atmosphere and etc. For example, that 17 year old could have spent the time in class learning to be patient, humble, and using his competent learning in helping fellow students better learn. We should not have the attitude that we are above anything, nor that anything is beneath us, we may be overskilled but always learning, as from dust we have come so dust we shall return.
(4) Uncharitable - as love, charity, is fundamental to a Christian’s every thought, word and deed, so there is no place for heartlessness especially to the matter of studying about God, specifically the Holy Spirit.
(5) Unwilling - it seems his behaviour carries more of a hesitancy & unwillingness, than that of academic rigour or holy zeal.

On this note, it should be stressed, that whatever instance in life, whether you know better or not, its always key to exercise that virtue of humility. For example, I attended a friend’s prayer group, and the guest speaker gave a talk about the “Spiritual Battle” as referenced in the Letters of Saint Paul. I was tempted during the beginning of the talk, thinking I already know this, this is really for the others around me. But God granted that I sit through that one and a half hour talk and REALLY learn. And to my great surprise, I listened, I meditated on each point, expanding it deeper and deeper, got a lot of gems, and was caught up in the gift of wonder and awe. The talk in its simplicity helped me extra-ordinarily to become more patient. I was loving it. And everything the speaker talked about that I already knew inside out, helped me in humility, and to reaffirm it in my mind, helping me to remember it more sharply. Also, I immersed myself in the goodness of that atmosphere that was created by the gathering of Christians in holy faith and as a confirmation of faith. I bathed myself it in, and at the end I thanked the speaker, a seminarian, and commended him on his talk.
From all these good things and graces that I know was there to be received, it was only a small part of the bigger picture which we never really glimpse. But it all goes towards our spiritual edification and ascension in the love of God.

This post isn’t at all directed to the 17-year old, who among many like him we must work with and pray for - as it is especially difficult as with the circumstances of the western world today - but rather an example for the mature and older ones who may be tempted to validate or sympathize with such misbehaviour and bad attitudes or dispositions. A false compassion, as Archbishop Fulton so clearly describes it. Pity and prayers - yes, but validation - no.
 
This is this Sacrament where our young people should be free to choose to say, “YES, LORD! I will follow You and Your Church all the days of my life!!!”
I think perhaps Mammamarcie was referring to, in this sentence, was having the correct disposition before the sacrament and in receiving the sacrament. There are surely apologists and catechists in this thread who could elaborate on this point. Is willingness or ‘holy desire’ a factor when receiving the Sacrament of Confirmation. Can one correctly receive this sacrament with a disposition as indifferent as a passport receiving a stamp?
 
…You see a man wise in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him. Proverbs 26:1-12
What is the point of discussing all of this as if it were be going to be changed by a youth minister on the complaint of a 17 year old? … If they don’t ask, save all this fine advice for the day when they do, or for your own use at a future date. In the meantime, the best you can do is to keep your mouth closed and let them handle their problem children in their own way.
Very decisive and to the point. 👍
… I have group discussions, sometimes a video clip, journaling, and the rosary.
Amen to that! Any place with the Rosary being prayed is bound to bountiful. 😃

Mammamarcie, before I posted, your concerns were already well answered by previous posts, most of whom seem like they’re in your field of work. Puzzleannie, also posted what seems to be a very helpful systematic approach, but leave others to judge.

It would seem that if there be a problem with that young man and other candidates, in which the Catechist resorted to calling their parents. Perhaps, in the event your friend asks, it may not be a bad idea for your friend to consult the pastor, namely the candidates Spiritual Director, as the source of the problem doesn’t appear to stem really from the classroom, and so the matter may need this option. I’m not sure if this is correct, but reading from the situation - that which we can only compile from your account - it seems that if he isn’t lacking in religious education department (so to speak), perhaps a strengthening in the spiritual formation department is what needs attention.
 
Of course you write merely to vent utter frustration, but I think we would both give especially good odds that the youth minister does not have carte blanche to invite any troublesome teens in the program to choose between a) switching their noodles and b) exploring the practice of other faiths until they do! :eek:

Whether a particular person is accepted as a candidate for confirmation is also probably not the decision of the poor youth minister charged with running the program into which a 17 year old might come with such an attitude. I have my own opinion on that (oh, big surprise there! :rolleyes:), but it doesn’t help us much to have an opinion unless someone is going to consult us. They won’t.

I submit that having an opinion on how one will let a 17 year old treat us as teachers or group leaders is another matter altogether. (IMHO! :D)
How old do you think this youth minister is? 18? C’mon, the youth minister is an adult (or should be). Again, to allow Confirmation bestowed on a person with such a hostile attitude towards the sacrament, the Church, and, in the final analysis, Christ Himself, I certainly would not allow such a sacrilige to take place. I’ve taught many a confirmation class in my day, and have NEVER had such attitude from ANY of the kids in all of my forty years of doing so - and we have a relatively mid-sized parish.
 
@EasterJoy, I agree completely with your 9:17 post.
Again, to allow Confirmation bestowed on a person with such a hostile attitude towards the sacrament, the Church, and, in the final analysis, Christ Himself, I certainly would not allow such a sacrilige to take place.
  1. We don’t know that there is a hostile attitude toward the sacrament, just the instruction.
  2. The Sacraments are not for the perfect.
  3. In short, it is not your place, nor that of the instructors to keep him from receiving the Sacrament (especially given that odds are he meets the requirements in Canon Law).
  4. Swearing on the Lord’s Name only undermines the opinion that perhaps you should have nothing to do with teaching children religion.
@Anthony88,
We don’t know what his actions were other than to raise the issue (with poor word choice) with two catechists at what seem to be reasonable times (ie not disrupting the class). Oh, and he, and all the young adults in the parish have “bad attitudes”.

We know mamamarcie’s idea of respect is “sit still and keep your mouth shut”. This is not respectful to the students, and will not engender respect from the students. If there are issues with all the students, either there is a massive problem in the parish (withholding the Sacrament of Confirmation isn’t helping), or a problem with the catechetical program, or both. They only one we can have any objective view of is the catechetical program, which ***is ***beneath most (being charitable) of the young adults in their program.

Actually there is another option for the young adult, move over to RCIA, where he won’t be expected to “keep him mouth shut”.

More and more, though, this thread has one theme running through it:
Bye Bye Birdie -Kids:
Kids! / I don’t know what’s wrong with these kids today!
Kids! / Who can understand anything they say?
Kids! / They a disobedient, disrespectful oafs!
Noisy, crazy, dirty, lazy, loafers! / While we’re on the subject:
Kids! / You can talk and talk till your face is blue!
Kids! / But they still just do what they want to do!
Why can’t they be like we were, / Perfect in every way?
What’s the matter with kids today?
Kids!
 
How old do you think this youth minister is? 18? C’mon, the youth minister is an adult (or should be). Again, to allow Confirmation bestowed on a person with such a hostile attitude towards the sacrament, the Church, and, in the final analysis, Christ Himself, I certainly would not allow such a sacrilige to take place. I’ve taught many a confirmation class in my day, and have NEVER had such attitude from ANY of the kids in all of my forty years of doing so - and we have a relatively mid-sized parish.
If the youth minister were asking, I’d think they were pretty early in their careers. This is the kind of thing that comes up sometimes. That is not to say you get used to it, but you do learn to cope with it. So maybe they’re experienced and just venting, and the OP got the idea that they had a problem they didn’t know what to do with, rather than one that they didn’t like to deal with. I would also expect that youth ministers in their twenties get this kind of lip more than youth ministers in their late 50s or early 60s.

In 40 years of youth ministry, you have never had a 17 year old with an “I’m too good for this”, “I know all this”, “This is stupid” or a “Who are you to tell me what to do” attitude? My thinking is that you have a bearing that demands more respect than that in the first place, because believe me, they were making a least a few kids that act like that back in James Dean’s time. With the loosening of rigidity in dealing with young people (a good thing, I think), there is more of this to deal with. The young lions are no longer kept on their stools, so a bit more skill is involved in handling them. And yes, it helps a lot if we get to teach a program that we would have chosen ourselves, but we don’t always get exactly what we want, either. In class is not the place to voice that discontent. That is disrespectful of those who picked the program, who are not present to defend themselves or, if present, may not be in a position to do so, for similar reasons.

Is the youth minister consulted by the pastor about the disposition of the candidates? I would think so. Does the youth minister literally get a veto? I would think not. It is the pastor who decides who to recommend for the sacrament. As this is the conclusion of the sacraments of initiation, I don’t think many pastors will flatly turn someone down because he went through the required preparations but was vocal about not liking them. If the person was repudiating the faith, that would be another thing. Still having spiritual faults, especially one of the faults that are most common among the immature, would not usually disqualify a candidate. We’re not talking about Holy Orders, here.
 
CDNowak;6241344We know mamamarcie’s idea of respect is “sit still and keep your mouth shut”. This is not respectful to the students said:
beneath most (being charitable) of the young adults in their program.

There is no way of doing things that does not yield some complaints. It is not the job of the youth minister, having heard two or three complaints, to poll the entire class on the suitability of a program unless it is within the authority of the youth minister to change it. That leads to more frustration than it solves. Rather, having heard the complaint, he advises the student concerning what person or persons who can hear the complaint and act on it.

There is such of thing as saying, “I’ve heard what you said, but there’s not a thing either one of us can do about it right now. If you want to talk after class, I can suggest what your options might be. Right now, though, it is time to quit beating a dead horse and get on with it.” Getting on with it, for the 17 year old, might very well include sitting down and taking a turn in the listening chair. He does not have the right to cause turmoil every time things don’t suit him.

We do not learn to listen only by being listened to. We have to be required to take a turn at listening ourselves, too. If a youth cannot respect another person who listens and still does not agree, that youth does not know what respect is. Giving him the impression that complaining to every staff member he catches in the hall will help his cause does him a disservice. Rather, he needs to be guided through how one complains in a way that does not burn bridges and might actually bear the fruit of positive change for him some day.
 
There is no way of doing things that does not yield some complaints. It is not the job of the youth minister, having heard two or three complaints, to poll the entire class on the suitability of a program unless it is within the authority of the youth minister to change it. That leads to more frustration than it solves. Rather, having heard the complaint, he advises the student concerning what person or persons who can hear the complaint and act on it.
snip for length<
I agree that the original complaints (AFAWK, two comments to Catechists less than a week apart) should be met with a deferral to an appropriate time or person (not the OP in this scenario) to deal with the issue. Yes, he has to put up with it for the time being. Yes, he will need to listen and defer after the pastor reaches a decision.

There is no indication that the young man in question has been listened to, rather it seems that he is being dismissed, judged, and gossiped about online. This serves to build up the friend of the teacher, who is hardly an unbiased source. Likewise the fact that the pastor does not support the program is much more indicative of deeper problems in the situation than just the OP’s issues with kids.

Rather then continuing the line of this thread into bashing disobedient, disrespectful oafs (and I do understand the need to vent, and the problems with respect pervasive in all age groups in our society), can we turn to constructive advise for the whole parish situation?

Considering the situation at hand (junior and senior students preparing for Confirmation), I would immediately recommend RCIA as an alternative for any dissatisfied student. This would seem to be the path of least resistance. Alternatively establishing a mode for individual instruction (either with the Pastor or Catechetical team) would prevent discontent from spreading, but would require significantly more effort on behalf of the parish. In the long term (anything beyond this year): changing the program to one the pastor will support, lowering the age of Confirmation, correcting the catechetical team’s understanding of Confirmation should all be priorities.

In any event this all should have gone to the pastor, not ended up online (ahem). Certainly enough detail should have been omitted to keep other parishioners from being able to identify the young man in question (as it is I am sure that I could tip the pastor off, probably with more information than he has received from those involved.)

(PS for those who were wondering, yes I do enjoy playing devil’s advocate…)
 
I’m 14years old i have been confirmed into the anglican church, but because of modernization i am disgusted with my present church , is it possible for me to be confirmed into the latin rite of the roman catholic church …?🤷
 
Great comments on this post. I teach Confirmation class as well. Heed the comments. We as Catechists are not ordained and we have no right to “determine” that one is or is not ready for Confirmation. We can only follow the ‘checklist’ as we have in our Diocese and the candidate has either met the requirement or has not.
As far as the young adult disrupting your class.
“Blessed be the peacemaker” as I have had to be one. It can be aggravating at times for the half the class that you think is getting something out of your class. But, pull your disruptive ones aside and you may find as I did. They know everything the others do as well and are just bored. Challenge them and use scripture as your guide.
When Jesus asked the Apostles to “Follow me” they did not ask questions they only obeyed.
 
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