Teenagers and Church Music

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Japhy:
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Joysong:
I think this part of JPII’s statement is critical to understanding his message – i.e., that the ‘same spirit’ pervades all music, the spirit of reverence and awe
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That is not at all what Pope John Paul II said. He does not say that the same spirit pervades all music, but rather that a particular spirit “gave rise to and so molded” Gregorian chant.
It all depends on which words one “bolds,” doesn’t it? That would make one’s interpretation more valid than another’s interpretation of what JPII really meant.

Did he mean all new music must sound like Gregorian chant?

Or did he mean all new music must be molded with the spirit of reverence and awe, which underlies GC?

Let the reader decide. I do not wish to argue semantics.
 
It all depends on which words one “bolds,” doesn’t it? That would make one’s interpretation more valid than another’s interpretation of what JPII really meant.
“The spirit of reverence and awe” is your quote, not the Pope’s. He does not define what the spirit was “of”. I would look back to what Pope St. Pius X said (in the document Pope John Paul II was quoting) about Gregorian chant and the three qualities which true sacred music must have:
Sacred music should consequently possess, in the highest degree, the qualities proper to the liturgy, and in particular sanctity and goodness of form, which will spontaneously produce the final quality of universality.

It must be holy, and must, therefore, exclude all profanity not only in itself, but in the manner in which it is presented by those who execute it.

It must be true art, for otherwise it will be impossible for it to exercise on the minds of those who listen to it that efficacy which the Church aims at obtaining in admitting into her liturgy the art of musical sounds.

But it must, at the same time, be universal in the sense that while every nation is permitted to admit into its ecclesiastical compositions those special forms which may be said to constitute its native music, still these forms must be subordinated in such a manner to the general characteristics of sacred music that nobody of any nation may receive an impression other than good on hearing them.
Since Gregorian chant possesses those three characteristics, it seems plausible to say that the spirit which gave rise to Gregorian chant was responsible for that. Music then which is pervaded by that same spirit, it would seem, should meet those three characteristics as well.

This spirit goes beyond mere “reverence and awe”.
 
Personally, I think the problem is the contemporary music we use and how we sing it. My definition of contemporary is something like “Sanctuary” or “Shout to the Lord” or “Here I Am to Worship.” I’ve had 4 years of experience in Catholic music ministry, and I think contemporary music needs to have a bigger role.

First and foremost, we (at least in America for the most part) say the Mass in English. This is called the vernacular as I’m sure you’re well aware. The reason we changed it to the vernacular during VAII was to bring the Mass to the people’s level so they could understand what was going on. The best way for people to participate musically, I believe, is to use music that has a meaning to them and help them connect with God. I’m not sure about you, but at 15, “Gather Us In” means so much less than say “Crazy” by MercyMe.

Secondly, Gregorian Chant and Polyphony have their creative limits. There’s only so much you can do with that. Using contemporary music allows you to create something new for God on the spot. You’re literally singing a new song right then and there. “Open the Eyes of My Heart” is a great example, although probably a bit overplayed. You can do it faster with a little bit more of a rock edge (again, not overdoing it. This isn’t death metal or anything, but depending on the audience, I believe electric guitars are acceptable) or you can slow it down and do a nice acoustic guitar version. Either way, you’re using your creativity AND musical ability for God.

Lastly, we’re losing the next generation of the church. My youth minister always says, “If you think Mass is boring, find some part about it you like. Say its the music. Just focus on that and pretty soon you’ll discover something else you like.” Music can be the biggest turn on for people at Mass. Now I’m not saying go out and use contemporary music to fill seats, I’m saying use it to speak to people in their own language and invite them to join into the rest of the Mass, because after all, isn’t that the whole point of music at Mass?

This last bit is sort of unrelated but I think it’s close enough. When Teenagers make music in Church, they should sound like teenagers making music. When 30 year olds make music in church, they should sound like who they are, 30 year olds. When 80 year old grandmas sing, they should sound like grandmas. Every age ground has their own style. Don’t squash that diversity, nourish it because it’s diversity that makes us stronger.

-as usual, apologies for grammar mistakes
I could only shake my head at your post.

Not even a hint of why we have the Mass in the first place… the Eucharist.

find some part about it you like is an excuse to continue with poor catechisis on the Liturgy

Encourage your need for diversity in other activities if that is what you think teens “want”. Personally I prefer to give them a lot more credit for being able to understand the value in the Eucharist which is the source and summit of their faith… or at least it should be.

The reformers would love you… they probably think diversity made the Church better too.🤷
 
Thank goodness, that the Holy See, while noting what is “preferred”, had the wisdom to grant priests and bishops the ability to be flexible as they deem appropriate.
never happened…

No priest has the flexiblity to change the GIRM or the rubrics of the Liturgy.
 
Well, Japhy, I took your bait and answered your post, against my better judgment. :ouch: But since I did not use the Pope’s exact and lengthly definition in words to explain my meaning of ‘reverence and awe’ but chose simple language that most would easily understand, then my definition in your book is just not good enough. It doesn’t encompass “holy, universality, art, goodness of form, exclusion of profanity” and anything else you think I omitted. I stand corrected. Next time I explain myself, I should do so only cutting and pasting with documents. :rolleyes:
 
never happened…

No priest has the flexiblity to change the GIRM or the rubrics of the Liturgy.
I think that this bears repeating:
11.] The Mystery of the Eucharist “is too great for anyone to permit himself to treat it according to his own whim, so that its sacredness and its universal ordering would be obscured”.27 On the contrary, anyone who acts thus by giving free rein to his own inclinations, even if he is a Priest, injures the substantial unity of the Roman Rite, which ought to be vigorously preserved,28 and becomes responsible for actions that are in no way consistent with the hunger and thirst for the living God that is experienced by the people today. Nor do such actions serve authentic pastoral care or proper liturgical renewal; instead, they deprive Christ’s faithful of their patrimony and their heritage. For arbitrary actions are not conducive to true renewal,29 but are detrimental to the right of Christ’s faithful to a liturgical celebration that is an expression of the Church’s life in accordance with her tradition and discipline. In the end, they introduce elements of distortion and disharmony into the very celebration of the Eucharist, which is oriented in its own lofty way and by its very nature to signifying and wondrously bringing about the communion of divine life and the unity of the People of God.30 The result is uncertainty in matters of doctrine, perplexity and scandal on the part of the People of God, and, almost as a necessary consequence, vigorous opposition, all of which greatly confuse and sadden many of Christ’s faithful in this age of ours when Christian life is often particularly difficult on account of the inroads of “secularization” as well.31
To say that the priest has the right to change anything in the Mass is just plain wrong. What is worse is when publshing houses take it upon themselves to change the words of the prayers of the Mass like the Gloria, the Sanctus and the Agnus Dei. This is what happens a lot with the music used at these Teen Masses. The kids aren’t learning the correct prayers. They are, instead, learning someone’s paraphrase of them.
 
never happened…

No priest has the flexiblity to change the GIRM or the rubrics of the Liturgy.
I was referring to the music specifically. But generally, yes the priest does have flexibility…like 4 EPs to choose from?

🤷
 
Well, Japhy, I took your bait and answered your post, against my better judgment. :ouch: But since I did not use the Pope’s exact and lengthly definition in words to explain my meaning of ‘reverence and awe’ but chose simple language that most would easily understand, then my definition in your book is just not good enough. It doesn’t encompass “holy, universality, art, goodness of form, exclusion of profanity” and anything else you think I omitted. I stand corrected. Next time I explain myself, I should do so only cutting and pasting with documents. :rolleyes:
How ever did we discuss and debate, before the folks at Apple came up with cut and paste technology? :rolleyes:

The posts in question remind me of an old Sesame Street skit the kids used to watch way back when…there was a sign that said:

“Private Property No Fishing Allowed”.

What it meant all depended on what punctuations you used before and after the word “no”…👍
 
Well, Japhy, I took your bait and answered your post, against my better judgment.
I am not baiting anyone. Please put personalities aside and deal with the issue.
But since I did not use the Pope’s exact and lengthly definition in words to explain my meaning of ‘reverence and awe’ but chose simple language that most would easily understand, then my definition in your book is just not good enough.
Using the phrase “spirit of reverence and awe” is, well, ambiguous. I’m sure the composer of “Our God is an Awesome God” was filled with reverence and awe, but that doesn’t make his song liturgically appropriate nor what the Church considers “sacred music”. Furthermore, as I pointed out, Pope John Paul II did not define the spirit that nurtured Gregorian chant in his document, so I’m not going to put words into his mouth. I will defer to Pope St. Pius X – in fact, so did Pope John Paul II, who adopted his predecessor’s rule as his own.
It doesn’t encompass “holy, universality, art, goodness of form, exclusion of profanity” and anything else you think I omitted. I stand corrected. Next time I explain myself, I should do so only cutting and pasting with documents.
It’s time to get over the “cut and paste” cliche. When I quote a document, I am doing so to let the author of that document speak for himself. I also do it to provide a context for my own opinion/belief on a matter, and to prove (if necessary) a rationale for it.

Let me use the “Our God is an Awesome God” example again. “When He rolls up His sleeves, He ain’t just puttin’ on the ritz…” That is an example of the profane (and rather comical at that); but like I said, I’m sure the author composed the song out of a spirit of “reverence and awe”.
 
It all depends on which words one “bolds,” doesn’t it? That would make one’s interpretation more valid than another’s interpretation of what JPII really meant.

Did he mean all new music must sound like Gregorian chant?

Or did he mean all new music must be molded with the spirit of reverence and awe, which underlies GC?

Let the reader decide. I do not wish to argue semantics.
Indeed it does. If we put in bold, or bring to attention the words of the Pope or his predecessors it backs up what so many people are trying to explain about what music is appropriate for use in the Mass and how we determine that. If however we put in bold what you want PJPII to have said then it agrees with your position, quite remarkable really although not at all surprising given how weak your overall argument is.

I hardly think it is semantics when you are, unintentionally or not, putting words in the mouth of PJPII. If you can not avoid doing so it is certainly best if you do not argue about anything, semantics or otherwise. Nonetheless, let he who have eyes see.
 
SNHS,

Since you are yet just a teenager, I will consider the source of your post. You are a bit young to be voicing and instructing the rest of us with your lack of experience with many years of liturgy and knowledge. I do admire your spunk, though. Wisely used, it will be an asset to you as you age. 😉
 
Ok… what has stayed consistant throughout the centuries for the Church regarding sacred music? Chant is the model for sacred music and any music composed for the liturgy should be modelled (not necessarily sound like chant) after that. It should also uphold the highest of standards set by the Church and which have been indicated throughout the thread.

What has also been consistent throughout the centuries? Introduction of newer forms/styles of music that would make its way into the mass. What would tend to occur with each introduction? Churches would adopt this music for their liturgy. Sometimes it would go on for a short period of time before it becomes known to the heads of the Church. Sometimes it would take years and people would assume that it was “approved”. It would eventually be reviewed and would be banned or accepted.
I’ve used this example before, but Polyphony, for instance, when it first came onto the scene for mass, was considered profane in it’s more rougher, secular form. Nothing was said about it until it became known by the Vatican. It was then subsequently banned. Generations later, the form was “refined” to better reflect sacred music and be more in line to the standards of what the Church deemed appropriate for mass. This took almost a century.

When Pope Pius X wrote his instructions on Sacred Music similar things were occurring for at least half a century. There was lots of saccharine goop as well as masterpieces which were composed in such a way that was not appropriate for mass. The document was a reminder to Catholics about what was appropriate and more fitting to the standards. And it didn’t matter how high of art or brilliance the piece was. Guiseppe Verdi’s Requiem, for instance, has been considered his “greatest opera” rather than a true sacred piece of music. (He actually needed permission from the Archbishop in Milan to even have it performed with women singers. The women had to sing behind a grate, wear “full black dress and cover their heads with ‘an ample mourning veil’”.) Thus, despite its beauty and greatness, and because of its operatic sound, it was never appropriate to use for mass. High art? Yes Goodness of Form? In a way, yes. Sanctity? In regards to the Church No - To the listener or the composer yes and possibly. Exclude all profanity? No because of the fact it sounded more like an opera, which is a secular form of music rather than a sacred form.

Durufle’s Requiem, on the other hand, was appropriate and equally beautiful. It was because of how he wrote the music and had it held up to all the standards of the Church. He was even able to incorporate the traditional chants within the music, while still making “new” music.

You can see the difference in these two clips:
Here is the Durufle Agnus Dei from his Requiem and notice how he incorporates the Agnus Dei chant. This can also be done just with an organ and a cello instead of organ and orchestra. I have heard this and Faure’s Requiem at Memorial masses - especially after 9/11: youtube.com/watch?v=N6ySRRqe1ks

Then here is Verdi’s Dies Irae from his Requiem. It’s an increbile piece of music and makes you jump out of your seat, especially when listening to this live, but appropriate for mass? No. Too operatic and secular in sound and thus you will not hear it done during a funeral or memorial mass.
youtube.com/watch?v=DdT1Mw4QJT8&feature=related

So the question with any new music composed today is if it lives up to all the standards set by the Church and who has reminded us at various times whether it was Pius X or John Paul II or Benedict XVI. And we really need to answer that question honestly and not with regards to our own tastes. There are pieces of classical music written for mass, that I absolutely love and feel is very spiritual - for me. But I also realize that some of them were really not appropriate in the tone with which it was composed. I’m willing to not sing them or hear it played during mass for that reason, even though I love them so much. I also like listening to U2, The Beatles and Radiohead, French cafe songs etc. Would I want those styles set to sacred or religious words so that I could hear it for mass? No. Why? Mainly because the style is too secular… too profane. It’s really not the ‘truest of art’ even though I do enjoy the style. Even as a teen I wouldn’t have wanted that - way before I knew anything about what was or wasn’t appropriate for liturgy.

Anyway, that’s enough from me. God Bless.
 
SNHS,

Since you are yet just a teenager, I will consider the source of your post. You are a bit young to be voicing and instructing the rest of us with your lack of experience with many years of liturgy and knowledge. I do admire your spunk, though. Wisely used, it will be an asset to you as you age. 😉
Yay! the thread has now regressed to ad hominem…:eek: 😦

SNHS, “Let no man despise thy youth: but be thou an example of the faithful in word, in conversation, in charity, in faith, in chastity.” 2 Tim. 4:12
 
Sarabande,

While I don’t fully agree with your positions regarding music, I must give you credit for expressing yourself without the endless cut-and-paste that many others resort to.

:tiphat:
 
Yay! the thread has now regressed to ad hominem…:eek: 😦

SNHS, “Let no man despise thy youth: but be thou an example of the faithful in word, in conversation, in charity, in faith, in chastity.” 2 Tim. 4:12
not to mention Jeremiah and his youthful “inexperience” and God’s words of “…be not afraid…”

I have seen a number of young adults come here and reply to “older” posters who are just plain wrong, with clear and concise answers… even if the “older” poster tend to ignore the source.

.
 
Problem is, MrS, that Jeremiah was called to his ministry, even though he felt quite inadequate and declined, as we heard in today’s first reading. God had promised He would put His words in Jeremiah’s mouth and send him.

Reading a document in personal study does not qualify anyone other than adopting the view of the author. It is never a substitute for experience. If you believe it is, then you are like the guy on TV who was asked to do abdominal surgery through telephone instructions. “Shouldn’t YOU be doing this?” he asked. How willing are you to let a teenager do brain surgery simply by reading about it? And how willing are the bishops or priests to be corrected by a teenager with a mind full of book learning? It is rather odious and lacking in humility, IMO.
 
Problem is, MrS, that Jeremiah was called to his ministry, even though he felt quite inadequate and declined, as we heard in today’s first reading. God had promised He would put His words in Jeremiah’s mouth and send him.

Reading a document in study does not qualify anyone other than through the eyes of the author. It is never a substitute for experience. If you believe it is, then you are like the guy on TV who was asked to do abdominal surgery through phoned instructions. “Shouldn’t YOU be doing this?” How willing are you to let a teenager do brain surgery simply by reading about it? And how willing are the bishops or priests to be corrected by a teenager with a mind full of book learning? It is rather odious and lacking in humility, IMO.

But if it makes you and others feel superior to put down a person who has walked the walk for years and years, be my guest. Who do you really think qualifies therefore, for ad hominem?
Maybe that is where you are missing something… Wanting good church music ain’t brain surgury.

The the poster you critiqued did not deserve to be shut out because you have some kind of experience. I suggest you allow everyone here to voice (no pun) their opinion openly and freely.

Who knows, maybe God is putting words in their mouth for you or I to hear.

.
 
Reading a document in study does not qualify anyone other than through the eyes of the author. It is never a substitute for experience.
Then do you have some particular experience that renders you a more accurate interpreter of what Pope John Paul II meant in his chirograph?
And how willing are the bishops or priests to be corrected by a teenager with a mind full of book learning? It is rather odious and lacking in humility, IMO.
Actually, a bishop or priest who is willing to be corrected by a teenager who knows the answer is a great example of humility. The teenager must, of course, avoid pride in the matter.
But if it makes you and others feel superior to put down a person who has walked the walk for years and years, be my guest. Who do you really think qualifies therefore, for ad hominem?
You said to snhs: “Since you are yet just a teenager, I will consider the source of your post. You are a bit young to be voicing and instructing the rest of us with your lack of experience with many years of liturgy and knowledge.”

In other words, in a thread entitled TEENAGERS and Church Music, you are dismissing the opinion of a teenager who disagrees with you because… well, because he’s a teenager. Why don’t you try responding to the ARGUMENT and not the PERSON? I earnestly desire you to respond to the snhs’s reply to you. Or should I get a person with a liturgical degree to repeat it?

“I will consider the source of your post”!
 
SNHS,

Since you are yet just a teenager, I will consider the source of your post. You are a bit young to be voicing and instructing the rest of us with your lack of experience with many years of liturgy and knowledge. I do admire your spunk, though. Wisely used, it will be an asset to you as you age. 😉
If the source is stating the truth then I don’t think there’s much room for interpretation. Having said that there are many cases in history where the authorities have tried to manipulate it to suit there own ends.

This is a thread dealing with Teenagers and Church Music, unless I’m very much mistaken that makes me fairly ideally placed to respond to it with my view.

I’m not instructing anyone about anything, as far as I know. It has been people with liturgical experience who have been quoting Church Documents and you’re completely ignoring them or attempting to twist their meaning to suit your purposes.

Just what kind of experience does one require to have a view on this? What decade should I have been born in to be allowed to take a view on what music is appropriate? Or did I miss out on that by not being around in the 70s?

I’m more than happy to admit that I lack the experience of many of the people on here. But one of the things my school did teach me was how to read and comprehend texts, and I can do that just as well as you. Indeed quite possibly better if your current form is anything to go by.

Perhaps it is my youth and inexperience, but I find it very difficult to respect any position which is as full as holes as your own is. Maybe you could fill those holes with your ‘many years of liturgical experience’ and explain how much weight your views carry compared to those of assorted Popes and Cardinals.
 
He was not simply sharing his views, but correcting my conversation with another poster in a condescending fashion, even though I was not guilty of putting words in JPII’s mouth, as he inferred. Big difference, MrS.
 
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