I
ibkc
Guest
That is very sad, because it is truly one of the treasures of the world, and one which developed organically within the Catholic Church.
Yes. forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=223327
- Status
J
japhy
Guest
I’ll try that; but I won’t ignore the three characteristics of sacred music that the Church uses to test music.
Yes, women sing chant. What don’t you “get” about the music? Can you be specific? Is it the foreign language? The fact that it’s not in 4/4 or 3/4 time? The fact that it’s often slooooooow and draaaaaawn oooouuuutt? What chants have you been listening to?
I find their description of it a bit… well… laughable: “These are definitive Catholic songs - the one’s that are always popular, that everyone sings, knows by heart, and wants to hear over and over again.” A lot of those songs are 40 years old or younger; some of them aren’t particularly or necessarily Catholic; the 2000-year-old treasury of Catholic music is represented in a rather lopsided manner, in my opinon. (I’m curious if the CD uses a PC version of “Let There Be Peace” that changes the original lyrics – written by a woman – from “brothers all are we” to “we are family”…) The fact that “Catholics are joined by Christians across the other denominations in singing these wonderful and beloved hymns” says to me that these most of these hymns avoid any particularly Catholic subjects. (I don’t know many Protestants who would sing Salve Regina or Hail Mary: Gentle Woman, at least not without changing the words!)
Not all Protestant hymns are bad, just the ones that espouse non-Catholic beliefs. The three Eucharistic hymns I recognize (“Eat this Bread”, “I am the Bread of Life”, and “Gift of Finest Wheat”) pale in comparison to traditional Eucharistic hymns which make no qualms about the belief in the Real Presence; hymns like O Salutaris Hostia (“O Saving Victim”) and Pange Lingua (“Sing, My Tongue”) are rather clear about what Catholics believe about the Eucharist, and wouldn’t be sung by Protestants. By promoting music which, while dealing with Catholic subject matter, is acceptable to both a Catholic and a Protestant, they are potentially confusing the matter: a Protestant could sing “Gift of Finest Wheat” while believing the Lord’s Supper is just a memorial meal and nothing more. That’s dishonesty on our part towards the Protestant.
I’m sorry about the “salvos … full of hatred” that you are bombarded with.
I
ibkc
Guest
I love 70’s music and rock music. I played in a band for years: we were late 80’s/early 90’s pop-punk, all-girl. Between my husband and myself we have over 2000 rock CDs and LPs (yep, vinyl.) I love rock music.
Just not at Mass.
Just not at Mass.
C
Cat
Guest
snhs, I can’t find the thread in which you asked if I had been in Masses where chant, Latin, etc. are used.
We have had a TLM Mass in our city since the 1980s. Bishop Thomas Doran has been committed to the TLM, as were the Bishops of our diocese before him.
(This is the same Bishop Thomas Doran who supports the Life Teen Mass in our parish.)
The TLM is prayed every day, and twice on Sunday.
The church is right in the middle of our city, no more than a few miles from all the other parishes. The church building is beautiful–very old and ornate.
Our city has 150,000 people, and is surrounded by several smaller towns.
We are 65 miles from Chicago.
I have never been to the TLM. At this point, I am not interested. Perhaps someday I will be, but not at this point. I am not a person who seeks “experiences.”
A faithful but rather small crowd attends the TLM. I know one of the choir members. The choir is small; I’m not sure if they even have a dozen people.
All the other thousands of Catholics in our city, including the majority of teenagers, attend the OF of the Mass at their parish or other parishes.
The Life Teen Mass is offered at my parish (around 7000 people) on Sunday evenings. Generally it is packed. Many of the attendees are teenagers (hundreds of them). I can testify that most of the teenagers who are active in the Life Teen Mass as musicians or altar servers or lectors also spend time each week in Adoration of Jesus in the Blessed Sacrament in our parish’s 24-hour Adoration Chapel. I’ve seen them there.
As for Gregorian chant–it is not done at one of the parishes where I play because the parish is officiated by the Franciscan friars, and they do not ever use Gregorian chant. They do another kind of chant (plain chant?) when they pray. The friars sing almost all of the prayers in the Mass.
We do OCP songs and traditional hymns, although at Lent and Advent, there are some Latin songs. Although the church has an organ, there is no one who knows how to play it, and so all the music is accompanied by piano or guitar. The guitarist is a classical guitarist, very beautiful to hear, and he sings, too. (I do not sing, so I always have to have a cantor when I play.)
Gregorian chant is done rarely at the larger parish that is my home parish. I personally think it would sound very bad, since the acoustics in our church are awful. I think it would echo something fierce.
I don’t attend the Sunday morning Masses because of work schedule; I attend the Saturday vigil Mass, which is always OCP and traditional hymns with piano and pipe organ, or just piano.
We have the best pipe organ in the city, perhaps the best in the entire Northern Illinois/Southern Wisconsin area. It cost a million dollars and was donated. Unfortunately we are being blacklisted by the Organists Guild because our parish fired a Music Director/Organist a few years back after he revealed that he was living in a practicing gay relationship and planning to adopt children. The Organist Guild denounced our church and declared that no member of their organization would be allowed to play there. They have stuck to their guns on this. As far as I’m concerned, it’s their loss.
Our organist is a hero, in my opinion, because he crosses their silly picket line to play at our church. For this reason, I don’t really care that he isn’t a “classical” organist and that he doesn’t teach Gregorian chant. He’s a good Christian, and that’s more important than his knowledge of chant and polyphony and classical pipe organ pieces.
Occasionally we do Latin responses (propers?), but not often.
The choir is about 30 people, and they generally do traditional and modern hymns, good arrangements by people like Rutter. I haven’t heard them often, since I don’t attend the Mass that they sing at.
In our city, along with the Life Teen and the TLM, there are also Masses in Spanish and Polish. The Spanish parish is quite full, and the Polish Mass also attracts a respectable number. I’ve been in their church and heard them sing hymns in Polish. Fascinating.
In our city, people who do not like OCP and Haugen and Haas and Life Teen and guitar masses and and vernacular in any language and lack of chant and lack of a pipe organ and all the rest of the “modern” stuff can go to the TLM–every day. So perhaps that’s why I’ve never heard any of the complaining about music that I hear on this forum. Maybe all the ones who hate the “modern” music are downtown at the TLM. I’m glad for them, and wish that all the rest of the Catholics who despise “Protestant” music and long for chant and polyphony could go to TLMs and leave all the rest of us in peace. We are very blessed to have the opportunities in our city to attend the Masses of our choice.
We have had a TLM Mass in our city since the 1980s. Bishop Thomas Doran has been committed to the TLM, as were the Bishops of our diocese before him.
(This is the same Bishop Thomas Doran who supports the Life Teen Mass in our parish.)
The TLM is prayed every day, and twice on Sunday.
The church is right in the middle of our city, no more than a few miles from all the other parishes. The church building is beautiful–very old and ornate.
Our city has 150,000 people, and is surrounded by several smaller towns.
We are 65 miles from Chicago.
I have never been to the TLM. At this point, I am not interested. Perhaps someday I will be, but not at this point. I am not a person who seeks “experiences.”
A faithful but rather small crowd attends the TLM. I know one of the choir members. The choir is small; I’m not sure if they even have a dozen people.
All the other thousands of Catholics in our city, including the majority of teenagers, attend the OF of the Mass at their parish or other parishes.
The Life Teen Mass is offered at my parish (around 7000 people) on Sunday evenings. Generally it is packed. Many of the attendees are teenagers (hundreds of them). I can testify that most of the teenagers who are active in the Life Teen Mass as musicians or altar servers or lectors also spend time each week in Adoration of Jesus in the Blessed Sacrament in our parish’s 24-hour Adoration Chapel. I’ve seen them there.
As for Gregorian chant–it is not done at one of the parishes where I play because the parish is officiated by the Franciscan friars, and they do not ever use Gregorian chant. They do another kind of chant (plain chant?) when they pray. The friars sing almost all of the prayers in the Mass.
We do OCP songs and traditional hymns, although at Lent and Advent, there are some Latin songs. Although the church has an organ, there is no one who knows how to play it, and so all the music is accompanied by piano or guitar. The guitarist is a classical guitarist, very beautiful to hear, and he sings, too. (I do not sing, so I always have to have a cantor when I play.)
Gregorian chant is done rarely at the larger parish that is my home parish. I personally think it would sound very bad, since the acoustics in our church are awful. I think it would echo something fierce.
I don’t attend the Sunday morning Masses because of work schedule; I attend the Saturday vigil Mass, which is always OCP and traditional hymns with piano and pipe organ, or just piano.
We have the best pipe organ in the city, perhaps the best in the entire Northern Illinois/Southern Wisconsin area. It cost a million dollars and was donated. Unfortunately we are being blacklisted by the Organists Guild because our parish fired a Music Director/Organist a few years back after he revealed that he was living in a practicing gay relationship and planning to adopt children. The Organist Guild denounced our church and declared that no member of their organization would be allowed to play there. They have stuck to their guns on this. As far as I’m concerned, it’s their loss.
Our organist is a hero, in my opinion, because he crosses their silly picket line to play at our church. For this reason, I don’t really care that he isn’t a “classical” organist and that he doesn’t teach Gregorian chant. He’s a good Christian, and that’s more important than his knowledge of chant and polyphony and classical pipe organ pieces.
Occasionally we do Latin responses (propers?), but not often.
The choir is about 30 people, and they generally do traditional and modern hymns, good arrangements by people like Rutter. I haven’t heard them often, since I don’t attend the Mass that they sing at.
In our city, along with the Life Teen and the TLM, there are also Masses in Spanish and Polish. The Spanish parish is quite full, and the Polish Mass also attracts a respectable number. I’ve been in their church and heard them sing hymns in Polish. Fascinating.
In our city, people who do not like OCP and Haugen and Haas and Life Teen and guitar masses and and vernacular in any language and lack of chant and lack of a pipe organ and all the rest of the “modern” stuff can go to the TLM–every day. So perhaps that’s why I’ve never heard any of the complaining about music that I hear on this forum. Maybe all the ones who hate the “modern” music are downtown at the TLM. I’m glad for them, and wish that all the rest of the Catholics who despise “Protestant” music and long for chant and polyphony could go to TLMs and leave all the rest of us in peace. We are very blessed to have the opportunities in our city to attend the Masses of our choice.
C
Cat
Guest
Here’s what I’m listening to:
Proprium missae in Dominica tertia post pentecosten
- Introitus: Respice in me
2 Graduale: jacta cogitatum - Halleluia: Diligan te
- Offertorium: Ego Clamavi
5. Kyrie
6. Gloria
7. Sanctus
8 Agnus Dei
In nativitate Domini, ad matutinum, in primo nocturno
9 Antiphona: Dominus dixit ad me Psalmus: Quare fremuerunt gentes
- Antiphona: Tamquam sponsus Psalmus: Caeli enarrant
- Responsorium: Hodie nobis caelorum rex
- Responsorium: Hodie nobis de caelos pax
- Responsorium: Descendit de caelis
- Prose: Fac, Deus, munda corpora nostra
What don’t I get?
- Foreign language. I don’t understand anything they’re saying except for the Kyrie, Gloria, Sanctus, and Agnus Dei, and the only reason I know these is because of singin Latin pieces in college.
- Amelodic. This is probably my biggest turn-off. I really don’t like music that doesn’t have a strong melody. That’s one reason I like a lot of the traditional hymns and the 70s songs–melody was important. That’s one reason I don’t like a lot of CCM (Contemporary Christian Music)–the singer is more prominent than the melody. I like a song that I can hum to myself the rest of the week once I leave the church building.
- Spooky. Sorry, it doesn’t sound peaceful to me. It sounds like something ghosts would sing. JMO, and I realize that many disagree with me. But it’s not the kind of thing I want to listen to by myself. Creeps me out.
I respect the Church’s edict about Gregorian chant. I think it is unrealistic in most parishes. To teach this correctly requires a knowledgeable person, and this kind of knowledge is not wide-spread. In all my years at college, we never learned anything in my music classes about Gregorian chant, and I had never heard of Palestrina until I became Catholic. I guess that’s what happens when you play piano instead of organ. But I took piano lessons from one of the best pipe organists in our city, and she didn’t tell me anything about this kind of music, either!
So I don’t think that knowledge of Gregorian chant and polyphony is wide-spread. So it’s not too likely that many parishes will have the resources to learn all about it and start using it in their Masses.
And–I know that many of you will gasp–I think a lot of people feel the same way I do about Gregorian chant–it’s in a foreign language and it’s amelodic. I think a lot of people find it peaceful to listen to (unlike me). But I don’t think that most people would choose it over Amazing Grace as a weekly thing at Mass. Maybe in small doses. But I think that you’re kidding yourselves if you think people will flock to hear Gregorian chant at Mass. We have TLM in our city, and I understand from my friend in their choir that they do chant, and people don’t flock and crowd their way into the church to hear it. They DO flock and crowd their way into the Life Teen Mass (standing room only, usually).
J
japhy
Guest
Well, once I’ve been listening to a chant, I make an effort to discern the words and then find a translation. It’s not always necessary (I can be content without knowing what they’re singing) but it’s a definite help.
Well, I don’t get all worked up over sanctus by itself, but Sanctus, Sanctus, Sanctus, Dominus Deus Sabaoth is better than “Holy, Holy, Holy Lord, God of power, God of might” any day of the week. I mean, “Holy, Holy, Holy, Lord God of Hosts” is good, too, but it’s nationalistic of me to prefer my vernacular to someone else’s. Really, this is one of the reasons why the Church promotes Latin, because it’s no one’s vernacular and it’s everyone’s treasure.
(But does your hospital use English translations of muscle names and bone names?) Latin can be a really concise language. Take this line from one of the stanzas of Pange lingua: “Verbum caro, panem verum verbo carnem efficit”. Roughly translated, it says: “The Word-made-flesh turns true bread into flesh by His word”; any decent English translation requires a lot more, because the Latin words pack a lot of individual punch.
I’m not affected by it. Some chant is more melodic than others; some is in verses with repeating melodies, others are not. I find that the melody of the chant is usually more emotive and evocative. The solemn tone for Salve Regina, for example: on the words gementes et flentes, the tune feels like “mourning and weeping”. Another example is Psalm 110 (I think), where the chant uses the same melody for Dominus (The Lord) and ego (I), and it uses a trinitarian formula of notes for filius (son): three notes on fi, two notes on li, one note on us. It’s really spiritually and theological thick music!
I wouldn’t say “ghosty”, I’d say “angelic”. I think that’s the point, really.
I promise not to attack you.
But you can start simple… really simple. If you start with hard stuff, of course people will be turned off to the whole thing.
If you offer a child his choice of apple or donut for dessert, how often is the kid going to choose the apple? I think that’s what happened with sacred music in the Church. The Church allowed for other forms of music to be admitted to the liturgy, and chant and polyphony got stomped on and ignored almost completely. Already by 1974 the damage was nearly irreversible.
Some of us here are trying to make that knowledge more widespread, but are encountering resistance. I will admit it could be because we get very confrontational about music, and if our approach were less acerbic, we would probably get better results.
I would want people to flock to sing Gregorian chant at Mass. And I ultimately want to hear the choir singing the texts of the Mass, instead of substituting hymns all the time.
S
Sarabande
Guest
I think a reason behind chant not being as “melodic” as what you would hear in other forms of music is because it serves as a meditative tool. The “ghostly” or “angelic” form of it has a purpose in that sense. It is get you into a different and higher state of mind rather than to stay within the physical. (That’s not to say you can’t transcend with other forms of music.) Chant has been around long before Christianity. It was and still is used to get you into the spiritual “zone” or realm of God.
Cat - Since you are musician, you may want to borrow sheet music to look at while you are listening to the chants. I started reading and chanting when I was in college. Looking at music which is transcribed to read easier for the modern eye, then looking at the original version, can help in better understanding it.
That’s very true. One of the first things I learned when I taught my students (age 3 to 14) was that beginner ears and young ears can hear things very differently. I also remembered it myself when I would learn new music. I started teaching when I was 24, so I wasn’t that much older than them.
Young children will gravitate towards lighter sounds. They prefer a lighter female voice, so whenever I’d sing with them or bring in music samples, I would lighten my voice and let them listen to singers who mostly performed early music to the Classical period or early Romantic. (The young ones LOVED the Rennaisance madrigal stuff.) The same would go with instrumental music. I would very rarely, if ever, bring in Brahms or Mahler, etc. Their music was too heavy, too complex. If you are not accustomed to this kind of music it can be totally overwhelming. But music from the Baroque, Classical and Early Romantic periods would be very palatable and enjoyable to the children.
I’ve said it once and I’ll say it again.
As someone who was fairly successful in teaching and instilling an appreciation and, for some, a love of music, I know that if a teacher/music director has a sincere love for what she is trying to instill in her students that will carry through to them. The same would happen if the teacher hates or doesn’t appreciate her subject matter, but would achieve the opposite and negative result. And Cat was very right in regards to not trashing the students’ preference of music. That gets you no where. Whenever my older students asked why we didn’t get into rock, pop or rap, I’d tell them that I was there to teach them about the music they didn’t know about, to help them learn more about their Church’s rich musical history. I worked to help them discover how the Church’s influence in music helped shaped music in the secular world as well. (Although at the end of the year, I’d let them bring in music of their own, but would ask them to express why they liked that particular song, encouraging them to discuss the melody, rhythm, tempi, etc. just as they would with a more classical piece or sacred piece of music.)It’s that unending circle. One side will be rude and confrontational, so the other side will be as well. Everyone gets frustrated. No one listens to each other and all will end up with a preconceived notion of the other side so that the cycle will start again. One of the best ways is to try to be as calm and polite as possible and not to be too passionate, no matter how fierce the other side will become. That helps to calm the storm. (I know… easier said than done.)
N
nightwalker
Guest
Bull.
B
benedictgal
Guest
I must say, I don’t know what is more contentious: the intense pounding of rain that I’m fixing to receive thanks to Tropical Storm Dolly or the deteriorating conditions of this debate.
It’s funny. The same bishops (not necessarily by name, but, bishops in general) that are repeatedly mentioned have themselves noted that there are problems with the music used at Youth Masses (read: Teen Masses). Those of you who push this kind of stuf seem to either ignore that part of the list of concerns that the Synod Fathers had or are just tone deaf to the whole thing. Pope Benedict responded by saying that as far as the liturgy is concerned, one song is not as good as another.
SNHS, who is a teenager, expressed his opinion (since he is a teenager and makes up part and parcel of the OP as far as subject matter is concerned), a very valid one, as far as I see it. For someone so young, he has a true Sensus Fideum, something that is lacking in the older crowd. He’s been able to defend himself quite well, and, he’s got a good head on his shoulders. If I recall, another teenager (well, 12 is close enough) managed to fend for himself rather nicely during his three-day jaunt at the Temple, debating with the elders.
Those of us who post authoritative documents from the Holy See and from the Supreme Pontiffs get criticized. However, when we don’t post something to back up what we are saying, we get sarcastic requests asking us to “show where it is in the documents.” It’s a catch-22 situation. Furthermore, the same people who have leveled the criticism and who have tried to defend the tripe and the banal have yet to provide any authoritative documentation from the Holy See to prove their point.
The bottom line is that the Church has her standard, and that standard is Gregorian Chant. Whatever is out there needs to be measured by that standard. While Eagles’ Wings may be based on one of the psalms, it’s musical composition sounds as sappy and drippy as something by either Barry Manilow or the Carpenters. Sorry, but, just because bell-bottoms are making a comeback, that doesn’t mean that Benedictgal will be squeezing into a pair just to be a fashionista, neither will she be singing something tired and tripe and not fitting for the Mass.
Furthermore, comments like:
The poster also made some less than charitable remarks regarding the issue of Latin. May I remind her and those who consistently pan its use that it is the language of the Church and the document (SC, GIRM, Sacramentum Caritatis, etc) promote and encourage its use. It is the language of the Church. That is why we are called the Latin Rite.
To call Gregorian Chant “spooky” is to fall prey to the way Hollywood depcicts the Church. It seems that every time there is a horror movie invovlving demonic possession, producers throw in Gregorian Chant during the scary parts (End of Days, the Omen), failing to realize that this is the Church’s sacred music and not some filler for the soundtrack. Blame Hollywood for the scariness, not the Church.
The bottom line is that we are doing the teens a disservice when we offer them the banal and try to mask it as Sacred Music. Pretty soon, the kids, like SNHS, will realize that the emperor has no new clothes on (and is actually in his scivvies) and they’ll see the truth behind the whole thing. We offer them entertainment when they crave the sacred, something beyond themselves.
It’s funny. The same bishops (not necessarily by name, but, bishops in general) that are repeatedly mentioned have themselves noted that there are problems with the music used at Youth Masses (read: Teen Masses). Those of you who push this kind of stuf seem to either ignore that part of the list of concerns that the Synod Fathers had or are just tone deaf to the whole thing. Pope Benedict responded by saying that as far as the liturgy is concerned, one song is not as good as another.
SNHS, who is a teenager, expressed his opinion (since he is a teenager and makes up part and parcel of the OP as far as subject matter is concerned), a very valid one, as far as I see it. For someone so young, he has a true Sensus Fideum, something that is lacking in the older crowd. He’s been able to defend himself quite well, and, he’s got a good head on his shoulders. If I recall, another teenager (well, 12 is close enough) managed to fend for himself rather nicely during his three-day jaunt at the Temple, debating with the elders.
Those of us who post authoritative documents from the Holy See and from the Supreme Pontiffs get criticized. However, when we don’t post something to back up what we are saying, we get sarcastic requests asking us to “show where it is in the documents.” It’s a catch-22 situation. Furthermore, the same people who have leveled the criticism and who have tried to defend the tripe and the banal have yet to provide any authoritative documentation from the Holy See to prove their point.
The bottom line is that the Church has her standard, and that standard is Gregorian Chant. Whatever is out there needs to be measured by that standard. While Eagles’ Wings may be based on one of the psalms, it’s musical composition sounds as sappy and drippy as something by either Barry Manilow or the Carpenters. Sorry, but, just because bell-bottoms are making a comeback, that doesn’t mean that Benedictgal will be squeezing into a pair just to be a fashionista, neither will she be singing something tired and tripe and not fitting for the Mass.
Furthermore, comments like:
do not seem to have a full understanding, I respectfully submit, of what the Church requires and why does of us who care about the quality of music in the Mass have a legitimate concern.
The poster also made some less than charitable remarks regarding the issue of Latin. May I remind her and those who consistently pan its use that it is the language of the Church and the document (SC, GIRM, Sacramentum Caritatis, etc) promote and encourage its use. It is the language of the Church. That is why we are called the Latin Rite.
To call Gregorian Chant “spooky” is to fall prey to the way Hollywood depcicts the Church. It seems that every time there is a horror movie invovlving demonic possession, producers throw in Gregorian Chant during the scary parts (End of Days, the Omen), failing to realize that this is the Church’s sacred music and not some filler for the soundtrack. Blame Hollywood for the scariness, not the Church.
The bottom line is that we are doing the teens a disservice when we offer them the banal and try to mask it as Sacred Music. Pretty soon, the kids, like SNHS, will realize that the emperor has no new clothes on (and is actually in his scivvies) and they’ll see the truth behind the whole thing. We offer them entertainment when they crave the sacred, something beyond themselves.
C
Cat
Guest
I am not frightened. I am just not the least bit interested in Mass in a foreign language when I can attend many wonderful Masses in my heart language and sing hymns that I really love.
Both forms of the Mass are “equal” according to Holy Mother Church.
You are not intested in attending Life Teen. I am not interested in attending TLM. So we’re even here.
I’m not alone in my lack of interest. The one time that my husband attended the TLM, there were 20 people there.
In case you’re wondering, the Mass is officiated by the priests of Christ the King. So it’s a good TLM.
S
snhs
Guest
I’m sure I’m not the only one detecting your rank hypocrisy here. You know nothing about me except that I am a teenager, yet you have questioned whether I should be voicing my opinion on a thread entitled ‘Teenagers and Church Music’. If you are going to question my qualifications to express a view then you can, or should, be able to extend me the same courtesy unless your own ‘qualifications’ come from bombast. And as your sole basis for questioning my position was on age, then you presumably consider that an acceptable basis. Or does that criteria only apply when it suits you?
Are you an adult? Perhaps you can prove it? I’m sorry but I’m not going to defer to your age when I think you are wrong.
You bring a document up for discussion, you are highlighting that document, bringing it to the attention of others who are reading and responding to this thread. It was obviously your desire to do so, or did it somehow appear in your post without your knowledge? I also find it interesting you felt compelled to add your own spin to it.
Do you think you could try to remember that next time you telling us about what Popes etc have written on something? I am interested in what Pope John Paul II view is, but I’m afraid your interpretation of what he might have said doesn’t hold much weight with me.
I know nothing except what I know and can see. You have tried to reduce the discussion to a matter of personality rather than fact, presumably because you feel your argument shall stand to scrutiny better if you attack others than allowing it to hold its own on an intellectual basis.
C
Cat
Guest
Boldface mine–it doesn’t seem to be happening like this in my parish. They haven’t noticed yet, after many years, that the emperor isn’t wearing clothes. The young people just keep coming to Life Teen and they seem to love it. We keep having a surplus of priests in our diocese, and they are coming out of OF parishes, including out of the Life Teen program. The young people don’t seem to be driving a mile down the road to attend the TLM in our city and listen to the historic music. Instead, they are driving to the Franciscan University at Steubenville not only to the Youth Conferences, but also to attend as students.
I agree that eventually they’ll become interested in other styles of sacred music–when they are no longer teenagers, although many people who grow up still enjoy the music of their youth and still enjoy rock music as it evolves.
But teenagers, most of them anyway, are not adults. Yes, there are those teens who prefer adult things and feel more comfortable consorting with adults. But most teens are young and they like YOUNG things. They should not be looked down up for that, and their sacred music is NOT entertainment. It’s just a different style from the ancient music of the Church.
The way to get young people to like the ancient music of the Church is NOT to criticize their music and take it away from them. That will only foster rebellion.
The way to get young people to like the ancient music of the Church is to VALIDATE their music and lovingly encourage through example their participation in many forms of music. They will follow leaders that they love and trust. They will ignore people who tell them that their music is just “entertainment” or “banal” or “irreverent.” That’s not the way to influence teens.
S
snhs
Guest
Right I’ll accept Bishop Doran supports the TLM on your say so. However I would like you to demonstrate this ‘support’ he’s given to LT, as so much of your argument seems to be founded on it.
As others have pointed out the TLM is rather more than an experience. The Pope didn’'t issue his Moto Proprio Summorum Popntificum for novelty value.
Many Sunday evening Masses are, it is the last chance people have to meet their Sunday Obligation after all. I suppose it has never occurred to you that they might just be there to see their friends, or maybe are just going to Mass because that is the most convenient Mass time for them? Interesting that so many of them attend Adoration, and I guessing, or hoping at least, that it doesn’t have any P&W songs?
And going along to the Polish Mass to hear Polish hymns doesn’t have anything to do with seeking ‘experiences’, right?
Many Churches have an echo, indeed many Cathedrals where Chant has been in use for hundreds of years have an echo. It didn’t stop them using it.
How incredibly generous, so anyone that likes anything which vaguely resembles tradition has to pack themselves off to the only Parish which does the Extraordinary Form downtown. Indeed you are blessed, but it seems that applies less so for those who would wish a more prominent position for the musical heritage of the Church.
S
snhs
Guest
Yes it was the arrangment. I’m afraid it was post midnight when I was typing it and my clarity of expression suffered.
M
MrS
Guest
Did you intend this wording… good pun B/G
E
ethelzguy
Guest
Correct.Bull.
We ALL know, that true learning comes from reading a few documents, then declaring ones self an authority.
E
ethelzguy
Guest
You have authoritative support for this claim? Just wondering.
B
benedictgal
Guest
This is why the Holy Father issued his Motu Propio:
This comes courtesy of the online magazine Chiesa and the person making the statement is the Holy Father’s Master of Ceremonies.
What is really rather dismaying is to read comments like this:
What reasoning is there, from the Church’s standpoint, to validate this statement, especially if the Fathers of the 2005 Synod on the Eucharist found the music at “Youth Masses” problematic? What this poster indicated is a complete 180-degree difference from what the Church says on Sacred Music. You don’t conform the Church to your music; the music conforms to what the Church requires. As Pope Paul VI wisely noted:
Pope John Paul II, the founder of World Youth Day, echoed this same statement when he wrote that:
You need to look at how the Church examines sacred music and not how you wish for it to be.
J
japhy
Guest
And if he did have “authoritative support”, would he be lambasted for copying and pasting it?snhs:
.You have authoritative support for this claim? Just wondering.
I think, from the motu proprio itself and the accompanying letter, the Pope’s reasons are made clear. It’s not novelty, because the desire for the older form of the liturgy was constant. One of the positive reasons for issuing it was “a matter of coming to an interior reconciliation in the heart of the Church”.
He also wrote: “What earlier generations held as sacred, remains sacred and great for us too, and it cannot be all of a sudden entirely forbidden or even considered harmful. It behooves all of us to preserve the riches which have developed in the Church’s faith and prayer, and to give them their proper place.”
Where does one get support for the notion that it was done for novelty value?
- Status