Teenagers and Church Music

[ethelzguy]

And if he did have “authoritative support”, would he be lambasted for copying and pasting it?

I think, from the motu proprio itself and the accompanying letter, the Pope’s reasons are made clear. It’s not novelty, because the desire for the older form of the liturgy was constant. One of the positive reasons for issuing it was “a matter of coming to an interior reconciliation in the heart of the Church”.

He also wrote: “What earlier generations held as sacred, remains sacred and great for us too, and it cannot be all of a sudden entirely forbidden or even considered harmful. It behooves all of us to preserve the riches which have developed in the Church’s faith and prayer, and to give them their proper place.”

Where does one get support for the notion that it was done for novelty value?

I am not questioning whether or not it was for “novelty value”. I have no doubt, personally, that it was not…what I am questioning, is when posters make authoritative statements that can’t be supported. It is highly unlikely that your run of the mill CAF poster has inside knowlege of what a given Pope was thinking, or what their purpose was/is.

 

[ethelzguy]

This is why the Holy Father issued his Motu Propio:

This comes courtesy of the online magazine Chiesa and the person making the statement is the Holy Father’s Master of Ceremonies.

What is really rather dismaying is to read comments like this:

What reasoning is there, from the Church’s standpoint, to validate this statement, especially if the Fathers of the 2005 Synod on the Eucharist found the music at “Youth Masses” problematic? What this poster indicated is a complete 180-degree difference from what the Church says on Sacred Music. You don’t conform the Church to your music; the music conforms to what the Church requires. As Pope Paul VI wisely noted:

Pope John Paul II, the founder of World Youth Day, echoed this same statement when he wrote that:

You need to look at how the Church examines sacred music and not how you wish for it to be.

I have read all the documents that you have recommended. However, it is still very clear, that while certain musical methods are “preferred”, others are clearly NOT restricted or discouraged per se.

The Church does not say "no guitars, no drums, no keyboards, no tambourines, no OCP hymnals, etc. That is apparently your personal interpretation. Thus, the bishops and priests are not “wrong” for not following your interpretation(s).

 

[benedictgal]

I have read all the documents that you have recommended. However, it is still very clear, that while certain musical methods are “preferred”, others are clearly NOT restricted or discouraged per se.

The Church does not say "no guitars, no drums, no keyboards, no tambourines, no OCP hymnals, etc. That is apparently your personal interpretation. Thus, the bishops and priests are not “wrong” for not following your interpretation(s).

Actually, the Church does in the sense that whatever has a secular use and a secular association should not be used. As the often-ignored provision in Musicam Sacram notes:

1. In permitting and using musical instruments, the culture and traditions of individual peoples must be taken into account. However, those instruments which are, by common opinion and use, suitable for secular music only, are to be altogether prohibited from every liturgical celebration and from popular devotions.44

That is where youir electric guitars, bass guitars, drums, keyboards and the like come into play. These are the instruments commonly used at these “youth Masses.”

Incidentally, what part of this from Sacramentum Caritatis do you and the proponents of these "teen songs’ not understand?

Liturgical song

1. In the ars celebrandi, liturgical song has a pre-eminent place. (126) Saint Augustine rightly says in a famous sermon that “the new man sings a new song. Singing is an expression of joy and, if we consider the matter, an expression of love” (127). The People of God assembled for the liturgy sings the praises of God. In the course of her two-thousand-year history, the Church has created, and still creates, music and songs which represent a rich patrimony of faith and love. This heritage must not be lost. ***Certainly as far as the liturgy is concerned, we cannot say that one song is as good as another. Generic improvisation or the introduction of musical genres which fail to respect the meaning of the liturgy should be avoided. ***As an element of the liturgy, song should be well integrated into the overall celebration (128). Consequently everything – texts, music, execution – ought to correspond to the meaning of the mystery being celebrated, the structure of the rite and the liturgical seasons (129). Finally, while respecting various styles and different and highly praiseworthy traditions, I desire, in accordance with the request advanced by the Synod Fathers, that ***Gregorian chant be suitably esteemed and employed (130) as the chant proper to the Roman liturgy ***(131).

I think that the Holy Father has spoken quite clearly and resoundingly on this. It’s just that there are some who are just tone deaf when it comes to sacred music.

 

[snhs]

I am not questioning whether or not it was for “novelty value”. I have no doubt, personally, that it was not…what I am questioning, is when posters make authoritative statements that can’t be supported. It is highly unlikely that your run of the mill CAF poster has inside knowlege of what a given Pope was thinking, or what their purpose was/is.

Just how authoritative do you want it to be? Will the words of Pope Benedict himself in the Moto Proprio and accompanying letter to Bishops do?

Pope Benedict wrote in his accompanying letter, which you can see it its full context here:

“I now come to the positive reason which motivated my decision to issue this Motu Proprio updating that of 1988. It is a matter of coming to an interior reconciliation in the heart of the Church. Looking back over the past, to the divisions which in the course of the centuries have rent the Body of Christ, one continually has the impression that, at critical moments when divisions were coming about, not enough was done by the Church’s leaders to maintain or regain reconciliation and unity. One has the impression that omissions on the part of the Church have had their share of blame for the fact that these divisions were able to harden. This glance at the past imposes an obligation on us today: to make every effort to enable for all those who truly desire unity to remain in that unity or to attain it anew.”

Now I don’t see anything there which mentions novelty. The first two reasons also, surprisingly enough do not mention novelty. Perhaps I am wrong to trust the Holy Father, when he gives his reasons and lays them out so clearly for all to see, explaining his purpose in releasing the Moto Proprio. But I think when it comes to a document issued by Pope Benedict XVI he is a fairly authoritative source on his reasons behind issuing it don’t you?

 

[snhs]

It doesn’t seem to be happening like this in my parish. They haven’t noticed yet, after many years, that the emperor isn’t wearing clothes. The young people just keep coming to Life Teen and they seem to love it. We keep having a surplus of priests in our diocese, and they are coming out of OF parishes, including out of the Life Teen program. The young people don’t seem to be driving a mile down the road to attend the TLM in our city and listen to the historic music. Instead, they are driving to the Franciscan University at Steubenville not only to the Youth Conferences, but also to attend as students.

I agree that eventually they’ll become interested in other styles of sacred music–when they are no longer teenagers, although many people who grow up still enjoy the music of their youth and still enjoy rock music as it evolves.

But teenagers, most of them anyway, are not adults. Yes, there are those teens who prefer adult things and feel more comfortable consorting with adults. But most teens are young and they like YOUNG things. They should not be looked down up for that, and their sacred music is NOT entertainment. It’s just a different style from the ancient music of the Church.

The way to get young people to like the ancient music of the Church is NOT to criticize their music and take it away from them. That will only foster rebellion.

The way to get young people to like the ancient music of the Church is to VALIDATE their music and lovingly encourage through example their participation in many forms of music. They will follow leaders that they love and trust. They will ignore people who tell them that their music is just “entertainment” or “banal” or “irreverent.” That’s not the way to influence teens.

I’m sure I’m not the only one who noticed that many young people aren’t able to drive. You have acknowledged in a previous post that you have only 1 TLM Parish in the whole Diocese, does it really surprise you that most of the Priests are hence coming from OF Parishes? What I will say is that that one TLM Parish probably has one of the highest, if not the highest, number of young men going on to Priestly formation relative to their number of young people. That has certainly been the experience of groups such as the FSSP, which continue to thrive.

I’m guessing that your not familiar with WDTPRS? Perhaps you’d like to read this, and a more recent follow up here. It’s interesting that while you are telling us all these young people of yours are happy with LT the facts are that a lot of young people whom are at Steubenville are trying to get the TLM on campus, indeed campaigning and petitioning for it. Obviously they’re not quite as content as you seem to think.

You don’t appear to be understanding my point from earlier. The fact is I know very few teenagers who listen to P&W in their free time, do you? There is in a divide between what young men and women listen to, there is also a contrast within those groups which can range from Jazz and Country to Rock and Death Metal. The fact is the music I hear in ‘youth’ Masses reminds me more of songs teenagers may have listened to 20-30 years ago, which often coincides with the age of the people planning the ‘youth’ Masses.

I read a comment once which took the position that because of the way society has changed the most radical form of rebellion has became returning to Orthodoxy.

No it won’t, or at least not if it is done properly. If instead of giving children and teenagers watered down versions of Church teachings the Priest or youth minister sat them down and said here is what the Church says, here is why it says it then they will not only embrace the music most suited for the Mass they will be demanding it as what is proper.

Try to think back to when you were a teenager, if your mum started saying how much she loved the Rolling Stones, or whatever band it was at the time, and she started listening to the same music as you and not criticising you when you had it blaring out of speakers and thereby ‘validating’ your choice of music. Would you think that made her ‘cool’? Or would it have made you cringe, not least when you were with your friends?

Yes they will follow leaders who they trust. So when Pope Benedict delivered a Homily at WYD in which he said “How many voices in our materialist society tell us that happiness is to be found by acquiring as many possessions and luxuries as we can? But this is to make possessions into a false god. Instead of bringing life, they bring death.” they listened. He criticised the kind of behaviour many of them and their friends would have engaged in normally, what they may have fallen into in the past by wanting that handbag or pair of sunglasses so they could be like Victoria Beckham, or whoever. He didn’t validate all of their past choices, indeed he told them that many of their choices in the past were wrong. But they followed what he had said, they understood it in the way they should understand what music or behaviour is or is not appropriate during the Mass.

 

[ethelzguy]

I think that the Holy Father has spoken quite clearly and resoundingly on this. It’s just that there are some who are just tone deaf when it comes to sacred music.

Or, it’s that there are some who are so obstinate and arrogant to think that they are in charge of pastoral decisions.

Again, your quotes do NOT make your case. They are simply quotes that you apply your personal preferences to.

 

[benedictgal]

Or, it’s that there are some who are so obstinate and arrogant to think that they are in charge of pastoral decisions.

Again, your quotes do NOT make your case. They are simply quotes that you apply your personal preferences to.

So then, supply authoritative documentation from the Holy See and the Supreme Pontiffs that makes your case.

The fact of the matter remains that the Church uses Gregorian chant as her benchmark. It is the standard used to mesure all other forms of music.

The problem is that the proponents of such music aren’t necessarily the kids themselves. Many teenagers who post on these forums are of the same mind-set as SNHS. They don’t care for the audience, even though, according to some folks here, the singing is geared towards them. In fact, the ones who are puhing the cult of the banal are the aging flower children who were so quick to follow the spirit of Vatican II that they neglected to read what the documents actually said.

 

[ethelzguy]

So then, supply authoritative documentation from the Holy See and the Supreme Pontiffs that makes your case.

Actually, when someone accuses assorted People of the Church of being in error, or defying Rome with regard to music, it stands that the burden of proof lies with the accuser.

To date, no proof as such has been offered. All that has been offered as “proof” is personal interpretation of admittedly vague documents.

The argument doesn’t hold water. Preference for ribeye does not make veal cutlet inferior.

 

[benedictgal]

Actually, when someone accuses assorted People of the Church of being in error, or defying Rome with regard to music, it stands that the burden of proof lies with the accuser.

To date, no proof as such has been offered. All that has been offered as “proof” is personal interpretation of admittedly vague documents.

The argument doesn’t hold water. Preference for ribeye does not make veal cutlet inferior.

But, in the same vein, you haven’t provided proof to state that your position is correct. I have provided the documentation, but those with eyes look, but they don’t see. Those with ears hear, but, they don’t listen to the music.

 

[Cat]

Right I’ll accept Bishop Doran supports the TLM on your say so. However I would like you to demonstrate this ‘support’ he’s given to LT, as so much of your argument seems to be founded on it.

As others have pointed out the TLM is rather more than an experience. The Pope didn’'t issue his Moto Proprio Summorum Popntificum for novelty value.

Many Sunday evening Masses are, it is the last chance people have to meet their Sunday Obligation after all. I suppose it has never occurred to you that they might just be there to see their friends, or maybe are just going to Mass because that is the most convenient Mass time for them? **Interesting that so many of them attend Adoration, and I guessing, or hoping at least, that it doesn’t have any P&W songs? **And going along to the Polish Mass to hear Polish hymns doesn’t have anything to do with seeking ‘experiences’, right?

Many Churches have an echo, indeed many Cathedrals where Chant has been in use for hundreds of years have an echo. It didn’t stop them using it.

How incredibly generous, so anyone that likes anything which vaguely resembles tradition has to pack themselves off to the only Parish which does the Extraordinary Form downtown. Indeed you are blessed, but it seems that applies less so for those who would wish a more prominent position for the musical heritage of the Church.

Our Perpetual Adoration Chapel is open 24 hours. It is in a separate building on the parish campus. It is completely silent. There are signs up that remind everyone that silence is to be maintained at all time in the Chapel.

 

[Cat]

Right I’ll accept Bishop Doran supports the TLM on your say so. However I would like you to demonstrate this ‘support’ he’s given to LT, as so much of your argument seems to be founded on it.

As others have pointed out the TLM is rather more than an experience. The Pope didn’'t issue his Moto Proprio Summorum Popntificum for novelty value.

Many Sunday evening Masses are, it is the last chance people have to meet their Sunday Obligation after all. I suppose it has never occurred to you that they might just be there to see their friends, or maybe are just going to Mass because that is the most convenient Mass time for them? Interesting that so many of them attend Adoration, and I guessing, or hoping at least, that it doesn’t have any P&W songs?

And going along to the Polish Mass to hear Polish hymns doesn’t have anything to do with seeking ‘experiences’, right?

Many Churches have an echo, indeed many Cathedrals where Chant has been in use for hundreds of years have an echo. It didn’t stop them using it.

How incredibly generous, so anyone that likes anything which vaguely resembles tradition has to pack themselves off to the only Parish which does the Extraordinary Form downtown. Indeed you are blessed, but it seems that applies less so for those who would wish a more prominent position for the musical heritage of the Church.

snhs, please re-read my post (#324). I didn’t say that I had been in the Polish parish for Mass.

 

[ethelzguy]

But, in the same vein, you haven’t provided proof to state that your position is correct. I have provided the documentation, but those with eyes look, but they don’t see. Those with ears hear, but, they don’t listen to the music.

I am not the one making the accusations of error or wrongdoing, so what is there for me to prove? As far as my position being “correct”, I am obviously in union with the many priests and bishops who do allow various types of music, instruments, and hymnals.

 

[Cat]

Right I’ll accept Bishop Doran supports the TLM on your say so. However I would like you to demonstrate this ‘support’ he’s given to LT, as so much of your argument seems to be founded on it.
As others have pointed out the TLM is rather more than an experience. The Pope didn’'t issue his Moto Proprio Summorum Popntificum for novelty value.

Many Sunday evening Masses are, it is the last chance people have to meet their Sunday Obligation after all. I suppose it has never occurred to you that they might just be there to see their friends, or maybe are just going to Mass because that is the most convenient Mass time for them? Interesting that so many of them attend Adoration, and I guessing, or hoping at least, that it doesn’t have any P&W songs?

And going along to the Polish Mass to hear Polish hymns doesn’t have anything to do with seeking ‘experiences’, right?

Many Churches have an echo, indeed many Cathedrals where Chant has been in use for hundreds of years have an echo. It didn’t stop them using it.

How incredibly generous, so anyone that likes anything which vaguely resembles tradition has to pack themselves off to the only Parish which does the Extraordinary Form downtown. Indeed you are blessed, but it seems that applies less so for those who would wish a more prominent position for the musical heritage of the Church.

You don’t have to accept it based on my say-so. Google Diocese of Rockford, call, and ask.

I base my statement that Bishop Doran supports Life Teen on the fact that it has been going on in my parish for many years, much longer than I’ve been a Catholic. I remember hearing Catholic friends at work talk about it when it first started, and that’s been quite a few years back.

Bishop Doran doesn’t allow abuses in the Liturgy of the Mass. Here is a quote from one of his columns:

"*The late Bishop Lane, Bishop O’Neill and I, myself, have all said on appropriate occasions to our priests and people that where the Mass of Pope Paul VI is offered in a dignified manner, with due attention and with devotion, our people have come to love and respect the liturgical reforms of the Second Vatican Council and to grow spiritually by using them.

However, the Holy Father also notes another situation: “In many places celebrations were not faithful to the prescriptions of the new Missal, but the latter actually was understood as authorizing or even requiring creativity, which frequently led to deformations of the liturgy which were hard to bear. I am speaking from experience, since I too lived through that period with all its hopes and its confusion. And I have seen how arbitrary deformations of the liturgy cause deep pain to individuals totally rooted in the faith of the Church.”*

Here is a link to the entire column (about the Traditional Latin Mass) from which I excerpted the above quote:

observer.rockforddiocese.org/Columnists/BishopThomasGDoran/BishopDoran2007Columns/July202007/tabid/422/Default.aspx

Bishop Doran doesn’t allow anything to get past him or pull the wool over his eyes. He drove a schismatic Catholic group out of town before they had a chance to set up their little organization in one of the towns in our diocese.

When our city government tried to have the oratory declared an Historic Site, Bishop Doran refused. He stood up to them.

So it is on my knowledge of his commitment to strong Catholicism that I make the statement that he supports Life Teen Mass. If he didn’t want it in his diocese, it would be OUT this weekend.

 

[Cat]

Right I’ll accept Bishop Doran supports the TLM on your say so. However I would like you to demonstrate this ‘support’ he’s given to LT, as so much of your argument seems to be founded on it.

As others have pointed out the TLM is rather more than an experience. The Pope didn’'t issue his Moto Proprio Summorum Popntificum for novelty value.

Many Sunday evening Masses are, it is the last chance people have to meet their Sunday Obligation after all. I suppose it has never occurred to you that they might just be there to see their friends, or maybe are just going to Mass because that is the most convenient Mass time for them? Interesting that so many of them attend Adoration, and I guessing, or hoping at least, that it doesn’t have any P&W songs?

And going along to the Polish Mass to hear Polish hymns doesn’t have anything to do with seeking ‘experiences’, right?

Many Churches have an echo, indeed many Cathedrals where Chant has been in use for hundreds of years have an echo. It didn’t stop them using it.

How incredibly generous, so anyone that likes anything which vaguely resembles tradition has to pack themselves off to the only Parish which does the Extraordinary Form downtown. Indeed you are blessed, but it seems that applies less so for those who would wish a more prominent position for the musical heritage of the Church.

I ask that you refrain from insulting the Bishops of Rockford, who have strived for several decades to make sure that the TLM continues to be offered in their diocese. From what I have read on this Forum, many Bishops have not allowed any TLMs in their dioceses.

There are several other parishes in our diocese that offer TLM. I am speaking of the TLM in our CITY.

Bishop Doran has expressed a desire to comply with the motu proprio: observer.rockforddiocese.org/Columnists/BishopThomasGDoran/BishopDoran2007Columns/July202007/tabid/422/Default.aspx

You imply in your post that our city’s TLM is in some inconvenient, hidden location. Not so.

Our city has 150,000 people. It is not that large. The downtown is an easy drive, not more than 10-15 minutes in light traffic for pretty much anyone who lives in our city or in any of the small towns that surround our city. The Oratory where the TLM is offered is right smack in the middle of the city, which means that everyone is equally close–I find this very significant. And it is in a very prominent place geographically, right next to the Courthouse and the Public Safety Building, and it’s only about a mile down the road from the Cathedral. There is plenty of free parking, and the area is fairly safe, at least as safe as the rest of the city (the Public Safety Building is right next door!). As I mentioned before, the Oratory is extremely beautiful, breath-taking. It’s not some crummy old edifice crawling with mice and dust.

 

[Cat]

Right I’ll accept Bishop Doran supports the TLM on your say so. However I would like you to demonstrate this ‘support’ he’s given to LT, as so much of your argument seems to be founded on it.

As others have pointed out the TLM is rather more than an experience. The Pope didn’'t issue his Moto Proprio Summorum Popntificum for novelty value.

**Many Sunday evening Masses are, it is the last chance people have to meet their Sunday Obligation after all. I suppose it has never occurred to you that they might just be there to see their friends, or maybe are just going to Mass because that is the most convenient Mass time for them? Interesting that so many of them attend Adoration, and I guessing, or hoping at least, that it doesn’t have any P&W songs? **

And going along to the Polish Mass to hear Polish hymns doesn’t have anything to do with seeking ‘experiences’, right?

Many Churches have an echo, indeed many Cathedrals where Chant has been in use for hundreds of years have an echo. It didn’t stop them using it.

How incredibly generous, so anyone that likes anything which vaguely resembles tradition has to pack themselves off to the only Parish which does the Extraordinary Form downtown. Indeed you are blessed, but it seems that applies less so for those who would wish a more prominent position for the musical heritage of the Church.

Of course it’s occurred to me.

And I’m sure a lot of people attend all kinds of Masses, not just Life Teen, because it’s a convenient time for them, or to meet their friends. So?

We have several hundred teenagers in our parish who are actively involved in various ministries. The Youth Director and his wife do a good job of evangelization and catechesis.

The teens themselves are the ones who present the music at Life Teen. If it is 70s “geezer” rock–well, they play it anyway.

Consider this–for several years, the keyboardist for the Life Teen Mass was a young lady who did a very nice job with the rock-style songs. I can picture her sitting there with her long flowing hair, singing her heart out–Lord I Lift Your Name On High" while she played. When she graduated from high school a few years ago, she entered a contemplative convent. Today she is a contemplative sister.

And people say that Life Teen is not conducive to prayer and contemplation?

 

[MrS]

Cat:
Our city has 150,000 people. It is not that large. The downtown is an easy drive, not more than 10-15 minutes in light traffic for pretty much anyone who lives in our city or in any of the small towns that surround our city. The Oratory where the TLM is offered is right smack in the middle of the city, which means that everyone is equally close–I find this very significant. And it is in a very prominent place geographically, right next to the Courthouse and the Public Safety Building, and it’s only about a mile down the road from the Cathedral. There is plenty of free parking, and the area is fairly safe, at least as safe as the rest of the city (the Public Safety Building is right next door!). As I mentioned before, the Oratory is extremely beautiful, breath-taking. It’s not some crummy old edifice crawling with mice and dust.

Sounds cool. I pray that the Catholics in the area who want the TLM in their parish will have priests willing to comply… and if not the Bishop can see to it that the “stable few” or the “stable many” are served also.

By the way, you do know the big difference between a parish Church and an Oratory, right?

newadvent.org/cathen/11271a.htm

newadvent.org/cathen/11499b.htm

Continue to support your good bishop that he will follow the Pope’s wishes that the TLM be available to all parishes.

 

[Cat]

Sounds cool. I pray that the Catholics in the area who want the TLM in their parish will have priests willing to comply… and if not the Bishop can see to it that the “stable few” or the “stable many” are served also.

By the way, you do know the big difference between a parish Church and an Oratory, right?

newadvent.org/cathen/11271a.htm

newadvent.org/cathen/11499b.htm

Continue to support your good bishop that he will follow the Pope’s wishes that the TLM be available to all parishes.

Thank you. I pray for our Bishop often. He was diagnose with cancer last year, but he seems fully recovered now.

Back when I was Protestant, I used to listen to him on the radio while I was at work. I remember thinking–remember, I wasn’t Catholic and knew little about Catholicism!–“Wow, this man sounds like an apostle!”

I couldn’t tell you right off the top of my head the difference between the Oratory and the parish church, but I have read it before. I just don’t remember. Thanks for pointing this out.

BTW, to anyone interested, we do have several parishes in our diocese that are doing that “hybrid” Mass thing (whatever you call it)–the OF, but with Latin propers and chants and kneeling to receive Holy Communion and receiving Holy Communion on the tongue and all boys or men serving as altar servers and lectors.

So there are a lot of opportunities for Catholics in our diocese who are looking for more traditional Masses. And there is the Life Teen Mass for those of us who prefer something more contemporary. Like I said, we are incredibly blessed.

And I think that this is the key to preventing the “music wars” and the “Mass wars” that seem to rise up constantly on CAF–balance.

I think our diocese does an excellent job of offering Mass in both forms, with all kinds of musical settings from traditional Catholic hymns to Life Teen with a rock band to no music at all.

And our Bishop is committed to keeping ALL of these Mass forms and settings (including the Life Teen Mass) ABUSE FREE! This means that we can trust that our Masses are truly reverent and pleasing to the Lord.

And as if all that isn’t enough, the 24/7 Adoration Chapel gives us the opportunity to adore Our Lord in total silence. Wow! If someone sitting in the pew in front of you chattered for twenty minutes before Mass started and made it difficult or impossible for you to pray and contemplate Our Lord–well, you can drive a few miles later in the day and spend a Silent Holy Hour of Reparation with the Lord Himself, Truly Present.

I think what’s really bad is when one form and setting of Mass is the only option in a city or diocese; e.g., ALL the Masses are guitar folk Masses or ALL the Masses are classical choir settings. No wonder people get discouraged and come here to vent. I can’t even imagine this. I hope I never move to a place like this.

In our diocese, we are able to attend the Mass of our choice and allow others to do the same. There’s no need to protest hymn selections or various instruments or people who raise their hands during hymns because there are so many other options for Mass and you can go elsewhere to Mass if you are offended by a certain practice at a Mass. And there’s no need to write letters to the Bishop about abuses because he eliminates them before they get a foothold.

It’s very peaceful here. I wish the same for all of the rest of you who struggle week after week to attend Masses that you find irreverent or inane or boring.

 

[Kolbelover]

I am a Director of Music and Liturgy at my parish and at a local Catholic, Elementary School.

Forgive me for venting, but I am sick to death of these arguments. I must confess too that the bickering back-and-forth has gotten so bad in our diocese that on more than one occassion, I have considered not doing it any more… I’ve been at it for 26 years and the shortsightedness and lack of charity shown by some folks on BOTH sides of this issue is tiresome.

a few random thoughts:

in my experience, the ones who complain the most, are conspicuously absent from Music Ministry itself… You want change? Be part of the solution! Work with your pastor and Director of Music! Tell them what you would like to see/hear…But remember: We are NOT there to entertain

the songs mentioned by the young poster at the beginning of the thread (Open the Eyes of My Heart; Sanctuary; et al) are praise and Worship songs. They are great for Retreats… prayer Groups… Adoration (a la Steubenville)… and other NON Liturgical settings. I sing 'em ALL and love doing so in the proper setting…BUT they are NOT meant for Mass. It is not so much that they are anti-Catholic in content, rather, they do not support Catholic theology well. Praise and Worship is Great!! We should all be doing more of it… but P&W is not what the Mass is about

on the other hand… many traditionalists I encounter should try to be more charitable regarding contemporary music. There is even a “society” dedicated to erradicating the “banal” music of Marty Haugen and David Haas! A shockingly Un-Christian thing to attach oneself to, IMO… To those harshest critics of contemporary music in general and theirs in particular, you know NOTHING of what it takes to compose music…let alone the faith of those two men. I KNOW them both. Do I like all of their music? NO… but I admire their dedication to create new, approachable Liturgical music. The net result of which can only ever be partially successful because many will choose to not like something even before listening to it… Stylistically, I think David’s music gets too “layered” for Congregational singing at times…AND he paraphrases too much…Marty’s music is stronger, IMO. I claim a bit of personal bias here because it was a Marty Haugen psalm setting that caught my attention back in 1980 that made me want to do Music Ministry in the first place… It’s not all my cup of tea NOW, but i need to allow for it (when appropriate and licit) to speak to hearts which are open to its intended use. My “conversion” in Spirit may have begun with “Let All the Earth”, but it certainly did not end there. Today, Panis Angelicus is more of a practical model of what constitutes Great Liturgical Music

My parish had long done Psalm adaptations… people loved them! You can hum the tune on your way out of Mass… But the documents call for using Lectionary versions. SO… we sing CHANTED lectionary Psalms…AND, if there is an appropriate (and good) adaptation of the Psalm, it mat be “reprised” if you will, later in the Mass (Offertory…Communion…Reflection Hymn…et cetera)… to use the vernacular it’s “ALL GOOD”

It has also been my experience that using a “cookie cutter” approach never works…what “works” in one setting may not in another (I am NOT talking about content here…ALL Liturgical music should pass the litmus test of being Liturgically licit FIRST)… in other words, I take a more Contemporary slant at the Elementary school than I do at the parish. This is not meant to “dumb down” the Liturgies at the school, though. With small children (pre-k, kindergarten, 1st and even some 2nd graders) they cannot READ. So doing music that is more repetitious, or is call and response in nature is advantagous. I also sprinkle in a P&W song there as well (especially Going Forth music since mass is technically “over”)

I am rambling on now and i promised myself I would not. Obviously, music strikes a chord (pun intended) with many… I think in all situations, we should strive for Liturgical appropriateness first, followed closely by tolerance, patience and charity for the sensibilites of others

St Cecelia…PRAY FOR US!!

 

[snhs]

Our Perpetual Adoration Chapel is open 24 hours. It is in a separate building on the parish campus. It is completely silent. There are signs up that remind everyone that silence is to be maintained at all time in the Chapel.

Right so one minute you tell us that if we “take it (their music) away from them (presumably during the Mass). That will only foster rebellion.”. The next you are telling us that these are the same people who feel strongly enough about their faith that they go to Adoration where they can somehow manage to pray in silence with not a guitar or drum kit in sight?

Perhaps you can explain your logic here.

snhs, please re-read my post (#324). I didn’t say that I had been in the Polish parish for Mass.

You said, and I quote, “The Spanish parish is quite full, and the Polish Mass also attracts a respectable number. I’ve been in their church and heard them sing hymns in Polish. Fascinating.” Now if you have never been to their Mass I would suggest you cannot actually speak on the numbers attending, so although I may have made an error it was due to a misleading statement on your part.

You don’t have to accept it based on my say-so. Google Diocese of Rockford, call, and ask.

I base my statement that Bishop Doran supports Life Teen on the fact that it has been going on in my parish for many years, much longer than I’ve been a Catholic. I remember hearing Catholic friends at work talk about it when it first started, and that’s been quite a few years back.

Bishop Doran doesn’t allow abuses in the Liturgy of the Mass. Here is a quote from one of his columns:

"*The late Bishop Lane, Bishop O’Neill and I, myself, have all said on appropriate occasions to our priests and people that where the Mass of Pope Paul VI is offered in a dignified manner, with due attention and with devotion, our people have come to love and respect the liturgical reforms of the Second Vatican Council and to grow spiritually by using them.

However, the Holy Father also notes another situation: “In many places celebrations were not faithful to the prescriptions of the new Missal, but the latter actually was understood as authorizing or even requiring creativity, which frequently led to deformations of the liturgy which were hard to bear. I am speaking from experience, since I too lived through that period with all its hopes and its confusion. And I have seen how arbitrary deformations of the liturgy cause deep pain to individuals totally rooted in the faith of the Church.”*

Here is a link to the entire column (about the Traditional Latin Mass) from which I excerpted the above quote:

observer.rockforddiocese.org/Columnists/BishopThomasGDoran/BishopDoran2007Columns/July202007/tabid/422/Default.aspx

Bishop Doran doesn’t allow anything to get past him or pull the wool over his eyes. He drove a schismatic Catholic group out of town before they had a chance to set up their little organization in one of the towns in our diocese.

When our city government tried to have the oratory declared an Historic Site, Bishop Doran refused. He stood up to them.

So it is on my knowledge of his commitment to strong Catholicism that I make the statement that he supports Life Teen Mass. If he didn’t want it in his diocese, it would be OUT this weekend.

So now anything that has gone on for several years in a Parish suddenly has the support of the Bishop? Unless you can back up your statement it is misleading to say Bishop Doran supports something.

And all of that is most admirable, however it still doesn’t constitute him supporting LT. That as may be, but if he wanted it in his Diocese and had so willed it you should be able to produce a statement of some sort to back it up. There is a vast, vast difference between a Bishop tolerating something and supporting it.

I also wonder why three consecutive Bishops have felt the need to enforce this so strongly on their Priests, don’t get me wrong I think its great that he is supporting and advocating sound liturgy but would they really need to keep hammering the point unless there are some who persist in error?

I ask that you refrain from insulting the Bishops of Rockford, who have strived for several decades to make sure that the TLM continues to be offered in their diocese. From what I have read on this Forum, many Bishops have not allowed any TLMs in their dioceses.

There are several other parishes in our diocese that offer TLM. I am speaking of the TLM in our CITY.

Bishop Doran has expressed a desire to comply with the motu proprio: observer.rockforddiocese.org/Columnists/BishopThomasGDoran/BishopDoran2007Columns/July202007/tabid/422/Default.aspx

You imply in your post that our city’s TLM is in some inconvenient, hidden location. Not so.

Our city has 150,000 people. It is not that large. The downtown is an easy drive, not more than 10-15 minutes in light traffic for pretty much anyone who lives in our city or in any of the small towns that surround our city. The Oratory where the TLM is offered is right smack in the middle of the city, which means that everyone is equally close–I find this very significant. And it is in a very prominent place geographically, right next to the Courthouse and the Public Safety Building, and it’s only about a mile down the road from the Cathedral. There is plenty of free parking, and the area is fairly safe, at least as safe as the rest of the city (the Public Safety Building is right next door!). As I mentioned before, the Oratory is extremely beautiful, breath-taking. It’s not some crummy old edifice crawling with mice and dust.

I’m not aware of insulting the Bishop of Rockford in the slightest, it was your attitude which I was calling into question. The Church has not now, nor has it ever said that anyone who prefers having the TLM or Gregorian Chant should be shunted into a Parish and ignored by the rest while they carry on as they wish. Indeed that is the exact opposite of what Pope Benedict called for in the Moto Proprio, he spoke of mutual enrichment. Perhaps you could explain how that could happen when your own attitude treats them like Granny in the Attic, something to be tolerated or ignored.

We normally speak in Diocese when discussing Church matters. For example it may be true that everyone in the city can hop on a bus and get to the TLM Parish in five seconds flat, I rather doubt that would be true outwith the main city. Similarly what are public transport links like for older people or young people who may but can’t drive?

You may be interested to know I had a quick look through a few of Bishop Doran’s columns, and I’m sure you will want to follow what he has said. For example in his column on Aug 31st 2007 he writes “The music was very appropriate and particular Latin hymns dear to the hearts of all of us were sung” later he states "One of the losses that has taken place in the liturgical renewal is the practical extinction of our traditional Catholic Latin hymns. Choirs can no longer sing them and hymnals no longer feature them with the Latin and English text side by side. It may seem a small point but it is one that grates on all of us who are as young as I am. " and then “However, the hymnals and the music that I grew up with were drawn from Catholic sources. Much of what is sung today in Church is nicely rendered but is not from the Catholic tradition of sacramental theology, or piety or devotion and some of it is, if you will excuse the term, dreck. I have commented elsewhere about our propensity to omit singing the second half of the Ave Maria which for us, the living and for those who are dying, is all important.”. “Dreck”, what an apt word that is.

 

[Sarabande]

From one musician to another: Thank you for your well-thought out post!!!

One thing I would add… go to the music director or the musician doing the music for the mass to talk about the music choices rather than complain to the pastor. I’ve seen it happen at parishes where people will write nasty letters about the music choices to the pastor and then some of these musicians (musicians can be sensitive beings no matter how much of a thick skin they develop) get really down or they get their backs up. So find out from the musician first what is behind their thinking with the music before putting all the blame on them. It may not be their choice or there might be another reason behind the selections which could be explained more clearly by them, rather than a pastor who may not know anything about music and may not really care what is going on in the music ministry part of the parish.

I am a Director of Music and Liturgy at my parish and at a local Catholic, Elementary School.

Forgive me for venting, but I am sick to death of these arguments. I must confess too that the bickering back-and-forth has gotten so bad in our diocese that on more than one occassion, I have considered not doing it any more… I’ve been at it for 26 years and the shortsightedness and lack of charity shown by some folks on BOTH sides of this issue is tiresome.

a few random thoughts:

…

I am rambling on now and i promised myself I would not. Obviously, music strikes a chord (pun intended) with many…** I think in all situations, we should strive for Liturgical appropriateness first, followed closely by tolerance, patience and charity for the sensibilites of others**
St Cecelia…PRAY FOR US!!