Teenagers and Church Music

[Cat]

benedictgal, perhaps it comes down to the nitty-gritty of practical, everyday life in the musical trenches of our Masses.

Pope Benedict XVIs opinion is certainly worthy of respect.

So what do we do with it?

I certainly cannot implement it. I have no authority in the diocese or in the parishes in which I play.

Others DO have that authority. The Bishop, the priests, and the ministers of music and liturgy that they have installed.

As of yet, they are not implementing Pope Benedict’s “opinion.”

I think a lot of it has to do with practicalities. There are not that many musicians who are knowledgeable about these forms of music. There are very few competent pipe organists (and not all that many pianists and guitarists who know how to accompany cantors and congregational hymns).

And when the teachers are available and the music is offered to Catholics, as it is to the people in our city at the Oratory–they don’t come. My friend in the TLM choir tells me that there aren’t that many people in the choir, and the young man who conducts has a hard time keeping things going.

I am the Chair of a classical music competition for young people. We have a Voice Division, but only a half-dozen students enter every year (if we’re lucky). We’ve talked to the voice teachers in our region, who tell us that kids don’t want to sing classical music. They want to sing pop. They don’t want to put the time into learning the art songs and arias that are required for our competition.

Now I personally think that the vocal teachers ought to charge and tell their students that they WILL study classical music and learn the techniques. But then, I am not making a living as a voice teacher, so its’ easy for me to talk.

So back to my original paragraph–what exactly are we to DO with your contentions that the music in the Catholic Church in the U.S.A. is a mess?

Write letters? You’ve seen that our Bishop is already well aware of the lack of Latin and chant in our Masses. What is he supposed to do? Wave his sceptre and materialize musicians schooler in these styles of music? Then displace all the current ministers of liturgy in all the parishes in his diocese and install these materialized musicians who can restore the “good” music?

Refuse to play or sing? I don’t think so. I personally like a lot of the “banal” hymns and even though you and snhs deny it, so do the majority of Catholics.

Besides, as a pianist, I serve. I don’t play for my own fulfilment. I play to serve the Lord, the priests, and the congregation. I don’t walk away from something that I don’t personally like. I couldn’t do that if I tried. And what good would it do if I said, “I refuse to play the piano for these “banal” hymns anymore. Call me back when you start doing Palestrina.” (Are there piano arrangements for Palestrina?)

You see, benedictgal, what you are going on about is not anything that most of us can influence. Sarabande is in a position to teach children, and that’s good. She’s one person. Perhaps her students will grow up and continue her work.

But in the meantime, we have dozens of parishes in our diocese and in our state that don’t even have ONE musician who can play piano, organ, or guitar. One of the organists told me that the state of Illinois has 125 parishes with NO musician at all. The people do the best they can.

I can testify from my experience (over 40 years) with Protestant churches that it’s pretty much the same there. That’s one reason why so many evangelical churches use soundtracks now, instead of live musicians. They don’t have live musicians.

In my opinion, the issue isn’t “Why do we keep singing “bad” music in Mass?” or “Why do the dioceses keep buying the “bad” OCP hymnals?”

The issue is, “Where are the musicians who are capable of teaching the great music of the Catholic Church?”

They aren’t there, benedictgal.

And so I see no sense in continuing this lament about “bad” music.

All of us who volunteer to play and cantor and sing in choirs and select the hymns for Mass are doing the very, very BEST that we are capable of.

And I think that our Bishops are very aware of this. They have to work with the material that the Lord gives them. If the best pianist in their diocese is me, a gospel pianist, and the best choir director in their diocese is a Gaither devotee–what’s the Bishop supposed to do with us? Tell us to go back to the Protestant churches where we came from? That’s what several people on CAF have told me.

Thankfully, Bishop Doran doesn’t do this. He accepts the gifts as they are. He allows the music that is do-able, even if it is not his personal preference. And I’m sure he prays and hopes that the day will come when there WILL be “Catholic” musicians and hymnwriters and conductors.

If that’s not good enough for you, well–I don’t know what to tell you. We’re all doing our best with what we have. The Bishop is doing his best with what he has.

**Pray about it. There isn’t a whole lot else you can do, is there? All your cut-and-paste quotes cannot produce knowledgeable musicians who are capable of making those quotes become reality. It doesn’t do a darn bit of good to post this stuff and hurt people’s confidence in their dear bishops and priests when no one is available to step up and make the Pope’s opinions happen. ** All you’re accomplishing here is creating a dichotomy between those of us who actually play and sing the music and those who complain about us and the music. But it’s not producing the changes that the Pope desires.

 

[MrS]

Forgive me, MrS and benedictgal, for not knowing the proper name for “hybrid Mass.”

I am a convert. I was raised in the evangelical Protestant church. I became a Catholic four years ago. Although our RCIA classes ran from 6:30-9:30 P.M. every Monday night from the first week of Sept. until Easter Vigil (April 10, 2004), the priests and teachers apparently decided to skip this. I can tell you all about the hypostatic union and the apologetics for the Marian Doctrines, and yes, I know what Gaudate Sunday is, but somehow, they missed this.

Amazingly, somehow, the Lord managed to used the banal dreck of the OF Mass to help me to become a Catholic. Jesus did say that with God, nothing is impossible.

And once again, what I see happening here, MrS and benedictgal, is an undermining of the authority of my bishop and priests. You say that the Holy Mass OF is supposed to have been “hybrid” all along. So what I hear you saying is that my bishop and priests are liberal and that I shouldn’t trust them.

No offence, but I choose to trust the apostles, the ordained servants of Jesus, rather than people on an online board who have a boatload of cut-and-paste quotes from the last 2000 years.

I have the feeling that if the right people came along, they could refute your cut-and-pastes with cut-and-pastes of their own that say just the opposite of what yours say. I saw it over and over again in the Protestant church.

My bishop and priests have teaching authority. The people on this forum do not have teaching authority, no matter how much they know about rubrics, music, and history.

I’ll go with the authority, please.

Thanks for responding.

But again you reversed things. A properly celebrated OF or NO, is a beautiful thing. It is when the abuses/norms are interjected that it might become a “hybrid”.

If that is what brought you to the Church, then you have added another proof that “God works in mysterious ways”

By the way, Gaudate Sunday is called such, because of the Introit to the Mass.

The Introit, the introductory prayers as the Mass begins, is still alive and well in the EF. The OF has “gotten away with” replacing it with an opening hymn or song… not what was intended.

No one has called your priests or bishops liberal=bad. Are they subject to err? Sure.

But they are given their authority by the Church and the responsibility they have is staggering.

If we pray that they will carry out those responsibilities fully, we may be asking for too much. So lets pray they do as best they can…

that they not tire in their work
that they not tire of their work.

.

 

[benedictgal]

It’s funny that those of us who provide bona fide documents and commentary get soundly criticized by the other side. These documents and comments back up the arguments. All the other side has to back them up is noise, nothing else.

I’ve worked with children’s choirs. At my rector’s request, we stopped the pickin’ and grinnin’ music and had the kids sing the trditional hymns. The choir director balked at it and said that the kids wouldn’t like it. Well, it was a lot easier for the kids to sing the traditional hymns, including some of the parts of the Mass in Latin, than it was to sing the contemorary stuff. The rector even helped out.

Contrast that with the rock band playnig at my alma Mater. The priests who have celebrated Mass there have had great issue with the Protestant Contemporary music the Salesians have incorporated into the Mass. Were St. John Bosco to walk in on this campus, he would quickly take the nuns to the liturgical woodshed. What is worse is that they’ve been trying to spread this garbage throughout the diocese (including “liturgical dance”). I sent documents regaring music and the issue of dance to our diocesan superintendent and she has managed to pull the plug on a lot of ths. I even went so far as to send, at least the dance documents, to the FMA Mohterhouse for the Western Provice in San Antonio. I told the provincial that as a graudate of the school, I could not, in good conscience, remain silent over practices that go against Rome. Don Bosco stressed fidelity to the Holy Father. I also mentioned the music, in pasing. When I ran into the current superior, she gave me the evil eye, and still insisted that Children’s Masses have laxity. I told her that the lexity ends when abuses begin.

The reason why most Catholics are exosed to the banal and the tripe (and, by the way, Cat, banal isn’t my word, it’s the adjective used by the Holy Father, himself), it’s because OCP does a terrific marketing job in selling their stuff. But, there are those like SNHS who aren’t going to fall for the trap. By the way, OCP does sell its wares in Europe and in Australia, which accounts for some of the questionable stuff that was performed during the WYD Masses.

 

[ethelzguy]

The reason why most Catholics are exosed to the banal and the tripe

Tripe?

I thought we were discussing music, not offals.

 

[Cat]

benedictgal, there are a few practical things that I thought of that you can do besides pray.

Support FINANCIALLY any musicians you know who ARE working to teach traditional Catholic music in their parishes–heaven knows musicians need money! Establish a scholarship in your parish for a young person planning to major in music and learn Catholic music and teach it. Support your Catholic schools financially and encourage the music teacher to add a little “chant” to the repertoire.

PURCHASE those classical hymnals YOURSELF! Did you know that in many Protestant churches, the hymnals are DONATED by the people? Look in the front of the hymnal next time you visit a Protestant fellowship (if they still have hymnals instead of overheads). You might see a “Donated by ____.”

So go ahead and donate the “good” hymnals yourself. Raise the funds through a second job or cash in an investment.

Sponsor a concert and seminar at your parish. You can probably find musicians online who would willingly travel to your parish and do the concert of chant and polyphony, and then give a Master Class afterwards for all who wish to learn more. YOU pay for it! That’s how our music club works–people sponsor (i.e., pay) for the various concerts. If you don’t have the money, well, find other like-minded people, do a few fund-raisers (car washes are always popular) and then you’ll have the money.

I would attend such a concert. For a while, our music club sponsored a “Cathedral Series” featuring sacred music in various traditions, including Catholic. It was awesome. I’m not sure why they stopped doing it. Perhaps there were complaints, but I have continued to ask the Board to restore this Cathedral Series. I have suggested several musicians and choirs that could fill this series.

YOU do that, too! If you don’t have a music club in your city, perhaps you have an arts council. Ask THEM about it. And ask how you can help financially and as a volunteer.

You see, benedictgal, there are a few practical things you can actually DO besides post here on CAF. Go for it.

 

[Cat]

It’s funny that those of us who provide bona fide documents and commentary get soundly criticized by the other side. These documents and comments back up the arguments. All the other side has to back them up is noise, nothing else.

I’ve worked with children’s choirs. At my rector’s request, we stopped the pickin’ and grinnin’ music and had the kids sing the trditional hymns. The choir director balked at it and said that the kids wouldn’t like it. Well, it was a lot easier for the kids to sing the traditional hymns, including some of the parts of the Mass in Latin, than it was to sing the contemorary stuff. The rector even helped out.

Contrast that with the rock band playnig at my alma Mater. The priests who have celebrated Mass there have had great issue with the Protestant Contemporary music the Salesians have incorporated into the Mass. Were St. John Bosco to walk in on this campus, he would quickly take the nuns to the liturgical woodshed. What is worse is that they’ve been trying to spread this garbage throughout the diocese (including “liturgical dance”). I sent documents regaring music and the issue of dance to our diocesan superintendent and she has managed to pull the plug on a lot of ths. I even went so far as to send, at least the dance documents, to the FMA Mohterhouse for the Western Provice in San Antonio. I told the provincial that as a graudate of the school, I could not, in good conscience, remain silent over practices that go against Rome. Don Bosco stressed fidelity to the Holy Father. I also mentioned the music, in pasing. When I ran into the current superior, she gave me the evil eye, and still insisted that Children’s Masses have laxity. I told her that the lexity ends when abuses begin.

The reason why most Catholics are exosed to the banal and the tripe (and, by the way, Cat, banal isn’t my word, it’s the adjective used by the Holy Father, himself), it’s because OCP does a terrific marketing job in selling their stuff. But, there are those like SNHS who aren’t going to fall for the trap. By the way, OCP does sell its wares in Europe and in Australia, which accounts for some of the questionable stuff that was performed during the WYD Masses.

I am glad that you are able to use your knowedge of documents to affect good changes.

As I said in my earlier post, which I hope that you read carefully, is that your documents are NOT producing the changes that you desire in the Masses of most U.S. parishes. A document does not materialize an organist, a conductor, and a choir capable of producing “chant” and other forms of traditional Catholic music. Banning “protestant” music does not produce hymnals of Catholic hymns and those who know the Latin and are capable of teaching it to those who don’t.

How are you working to bring about these reforms? What practical things are you doing besides sending documents to various bishops?

I have posted a list of suggestions (see above post). Perhaps you are doing these things?

 

[benedictgal]

benedictgal, there are a few practical things that I thought of that you can do besides pray.

Support FINANCIALLY any musicians you know who ARE working to teach traditional Catholic music in their parishes–heaven knows musicians need money! Establish a scholarship in your parish for a young person planning to major in music and learn Catholic music and teach it. Support your Catholic schools financially and encourage the music teacher to add a little “chant” to the repertoire.

PURCHASE those classical hymnals YOURSELF! Did you know that in many Protestant churches, the hymnals are DONATED by the people? Look in the front of the hymnal next time you visit a Protestant fellowship (if they still have hymnals instead of overheads). You might see a “Donated by ____.”

So go ahead and donate the “good” hymnals yourself. Raise the funds through a second job or cash in an investment.

Sponsor a concert and seminar at your parish. You can probably find musicians online who would willingly travel to your parish and do the concert of chant and polyphony, and then give a Master Class afterwards for all who wish to learn more. YOU pay for it! That’s how our music club works–people sponsor (i.e., pay) for the various concerts. If you don’t have the money, well, find other like-minded people, do a few fund-raisers (car washes are always popular) and then you’ll have the money.

I would attend such a concert. For a while, our music club sponsored a “Cathedral Series” featuring sacred music in various traditions, including Catholic. It was awesome. I’m not sure why they stopped doing it. Perhaps there were complaints, but I have continued to ask the Board to restore this Cathedral Series. I have suggested several musicians and choirs that could fill this series.

YOU do that, too! If you don’t have a music club in your city, perhaps you have an arts council. Ask THEM about it. And ask how you can help financially and as a volunteer.

You see, benedictgal, there are a few practical things you can actually DO besides post here on CAF. Go for it.

Actually, before the parish was elevated to the rank of Cathedral, I brokered a deal with my former parish in Central Texas. They had just bought RitualSong and had several hundred Worship III hymnals. We bought them for about $1 each and I managed to load up my little Honda (at the time) with the books (the catch was that I had to go pick them up and bring them). We also got the organ accompanyment (and some older, beautiful vestments, to boot). We had some extras left over and we gave them to another downtown parish that is using them.

Unfortunately, when the new administrator came in, he put these books into storage and bought the ghastly OCP stuff. We are trying to see if the diocesan director of dvine worship can get the old hymnals back.

Furthermore, for the White Mass for Healthcare professionals, I got the local philharmonic chorale to help out (since we don’t have a diocesan choir). They sang pieces from Benedict’s installation Mass as well as selections from the Worship hymnal and one Spanish hymn. We got the doctors to pay for the choir and the organist.

 

[snhs]

snhs - Did this bishop comment on how he’d like to see this loss to be remedied within his diocese? I do know that remedies take some time, but I was curious to see how he was hoping to do this, if was planning on it. I know when our archbishop came, he took his time making the changes. He has been here about 5 years and I’m starting to notice them now. One thing I did notice the first year he was here, the youth/young adult group (which was actually a group of aging 40+ year-olds) at the cathedral who did one Sunday evening mass a month in the chapel was disbanded. He did one mass with them and the next thing you knew, they were gone. Truth be told, no one really missed them. It really wasn’t an appropriate group for the Cathedral and the parish along with the college students that attended. Those who preferred that stayed on campus at the Newman Centers. (Not knocking Newman Centers as I was also involved in the music ministry there at the time, although I eventually left it all to be solely involved with the music ministry at the Cathedral.)

Then the Director of Worship was changed and the liturgies for the archdiocesan masses became so much better. It set an example for other parishes. Our music director was taken aback when very positive feedback came from the priests of the diocese, commending the music choices for liturgy and how prayerfully and reverently they were. (This was music we did for our regular masses with choir at the cathedral, but before were hardly ever permitted at the archdiocesan masses.)

Anyway, I would be interested in learning more on which this bishop discussed in his columns. He sounds like he is a good bishop from what Cat describes. I can’t base anything from one quote, but it seems as if he might be doing a very good balancing act in achieving what he would like to see, for the well-being of his entire diocese.

He did say later on in the article “That is why I am especially appreciative of the choir … to have covered the whole range of Catholic liturgical music in such a way that, like a wise householder, the musicians brought forth from their storehouse of treasures both the new and the old. It is a good example that all of us should value and follow.”. I’m having problems navigating the site for some reason but in a report on a DPC meeting of June 15th, 2007 it contains the following:

"In new business, Father John Slampak, chairman of the Diocesan Liturgical Commission, spoke about the propriety of liturgical music, a topic that Bishop Doran asked the DPC to address. Father Slampak explained through a story the struggle that sometimes can exist between pastors and parish liturgists. According to the USCCB (United States Conference of Catholic Bishops), he said, there are three judgments — musical (the value of song in music), liturgical (that which is required by the liturgy), and pastoral (the expression of faith) — each of which plays a vital role in enhancing the value of music during Mass.

Father Slampak suggested parishioners and liturgists alike gain some familiarity with the official documents of the Church which give guidance to all liturgical questions. He also explained the various segments of Mass that can be sung, stating that almost the entire Mass can be sung, if so desired.

After Father Slampak’s presentation, DPC members met in small groups to discuss the following questions:

• What music touches you prayerfully at Mass (in other words, helps you pray)?

• What seems most difficult in liturgical music?

• What is it that you don’t like, or makes prayer more difficult for you?

• To what degree do you pay attention to the words of the song?

The group reconvened to share their discussions. Members were asked to spend some time during the summer paying attention to these questions as they attend Mass. The focus of the next DPC meeting, to be held in September, will be to establish a “sense of the council” regarding music in the liturgy."

So it is obviously something the Bishop has started to address within the Diocese. I’ve not been able to find a report from the September meeting, and his columns for 2008 don’t seem to be yet. From what one of the other articles said about the role of the DPC after they’ve got their consensus it will probably go on to the Council of Priests for discussion etc.

Sounds like your Archbishop going about it in the right way. What is going on at the Cathedral is almost guaranteed to feed through to the Parish level, particularly when the Priests sound supportive of the changes.

He seems to cover a lot of ground in the columns. I think Cat’s already provided the link, but this should take you to the others available on the Diocesan website.

And thanks for the Private Message .

 

[snhs]

And once again, what I see happening here, MrS and benedictgal, is an undermining of the authority of my bishop and priests. You say that the Holy Mass OF is supposed to have been “hybrid” all along. So what I hear you saying is that my bishop and priests are liberal and that I shouldn’t trust them.

No offence, but I choose to trust the apostles, the ordained servants of Jesus, rather than people on an online board who have a boatload of cut-and-paste quotes from the last 2000 years.

I have the feeling that if the right people came along, they could refute your cut-and-pastes with cut-and-pastes of their own that say just the opposite of what yours say. I saw it over and over again in the Protestant church.

My bishop and priests have teaching authority. The people on this forum do not have teaching authority, no matter how much they know about rubrics, music, and history.

I’ll go with the authority, please.

I quoted earlier what your Bishop has said on it in one of is published articles. Indeed it was in that article that he described some of the new songs as “dreck”, similarly it was in that article that he criticised the format of the hymnals and how much of the Catholic musical tradition has been lost. Can you possibly explain how we are undermining their authority when it is the view of your own Bishop, and the view of the current and several previous Bishops of Rome that is being presented?

I think most of the quotes have came from the last hundred years in fact. Except those of the Bible, although I hope you’re not objecting to those. Excellent then trust what the Successor of Peter has said on it, trust what your own Bishop has said on it.

The Pope has teaching authority. If you wish to get his books out of the local library and confirm what you are being told he said then you are perfectly entitled to do so.

 

[snhs]

Sarabande, I don’t think he has a plan for reforming the music liturgy in the diocese. I can’t say that for certain, since I’m not involved with any diosescan committees or anything. But since I play, I’m friends with a lot of the music ministers and liturgical directors of various parishes in my city, and I would think that they would share the gist of any “grand plan” with me.

…

I think he sees the Life Teen program as a good tool for Catholic churches to use to counter some of the megachurch youth outreaches in our city.

There is one church in our city that has a youth outreach called “Cross Current.” Thousands of teenagers atttend the weekly meetings. I’m not exaggerating.

There is a megachurch that attracts even more teenagers to their youth group. And there is an older megachurch that holds their own huge youth meeting once a week, attracting hundreds.

With this kind of competition, the Catholic Church has to rise to the challenge and offer their youth something that will keep them from straying. Our young teenaged friend and others on this forum can make grandiose statements that teenagers will be attracted to traditional Mass and music, but it doesn’t seem to work that way in real life. I think Bishop Doran would rather see Life Teen than see all the Catholic teens headed off to Cross Current.

Our diocese is celebrating its centennial this year, and I know that Bishop Doran is very involved in this. It’s quite exciting.

I know that we have a person working for the diocese who is in charge of Liturgy. I don’t know what her title is. I’ve accompanied her and she is very sharp. Extremely committed to the contemporary Christian music in the Mass that this thread has been condemning. I have not heard her talk about developing chant, Latin, etc.

Considering that she works right alongside of Bishop Doran, I think that we need to put his comments in that one article that snhs quoted in context. If Bishop Doran truly despised all contemporary Christian music and considered it “dreck,” would he have this person working for him? Would he place her in charge of liturgy for his diocese?

I think that what we are seeing is the limitations of one man. He can only do so much. I think he’s leaving “reform of the liturgy” to the next bishop. Long life to Bishop Doran! God bless him and keep him.

You might like to see the quote I’ve included earlier from an article on one of your DPC’s meetings, it turns out that the topic of “the propriety of liturgical music” is something Bishop Doran has asked them to address.

Yet he has never said so on the Diocesan website? He didn’t refer to it in his column either.

As I’ve said previously I’m very happy to hear what Bishop Doran thinks about it, your interpretation of what he might or might not think doesn’t really mean that much however.

Have you looked at that survey yet?

In fact did you even read what I wrote earlier dealing specifically with the megachurches? We cannot compete with them on the music, in fact if you look at that survey you’ll find that Catholic teenagers and the unchurched don’t want them to. We can however show them that the Catholic Church has infinitely more substance, and it is that to which they’ll be attracted. I find it very interesting that you’re trying to turn this into a balance of harms scenario, does this mean you are accepting LT is a negative influence? Or does it just mean we should all be so concerned about teenagers leaving for other churches that we should adopt an anything goes approach?

I wonder if this is the kind of person Fr. Slampak, chairman of the Diocesan Liturgical Commission had in mind when he brought up “the struggle that sometimes can exist between pastors and parish liturgists”.

It seems apparent that she isn’t in charge of liturgy, Fr Slampak as chairman of the Diocesan Liturgical Commission sounds in charge of liturgy to me.

Oh my, what has happened to listening to our Bishops and following what they say. After all they are the ones in authority, and I think that Bishop Doran probably meant what he said in that article.

Did you actually read it at all? He didn’t say “all contemporary Christian music” did he?

Well as he has started to take action on it your interpretation seems quite seriously flawed. Perhaps your interpretation that he ‘supports’ LT is similarly flawed.

 

[Cat]

You might like to see the quote I’ve included earlier from an article on one of your DPC’s meetings, it turns out that the topic of “the propriety of liturgical music” is something Bishop Doran has asked them to address.

Yet he has never said so on the Diocesan website? He didn’t refer to it in his column either.

As I’ve said previously I’m very happy to hear what Bishop Doran thinks about it, your interpretation of what he might or might not think doesn’t really mean that much however.

Have you looked at that survey yet?

In fact did you even read what I wrote earlier dealing specifically with the megachurches? We cannot compete with them on the music, in fact if you look at that survey you’ll find that Catholic teenagers and the unchurched don’t want them to. We can however show them that the Catholic Church has infinitely more substance, and it is that to which they’ll be attracted. I find it very interesting that you’re trying to turn this into a balance of harms scenario, does this mean you are accepting LT is a negative influence? Or does it just mean we should all be so concerned about teenagers leaving for other churches that we should adopt an anything goes approach?

I wonder if this is the kind of person Fr. Slampak, chairman of the Diocesan Liturgical Commission had in mind when he brought up “the struggle that sometimes can exist between pastors and parish liturgists”.

It seems apparent that she isn’t in charge of liturgy, Fr Slampak as chairman of the Diocesan Liturgical Commission sounds in charge of liturgy to me.

Oh my, what has happened to listening to our Bishops and following what they say. After all they are the ones in authority, and I think that Bishop Doran probably meant what he said in that article.

Did you actually read it at all? He didn’t say “all contemporary Christian music” did he?

Well as he has started to take action on it your interpretation seems quite seriously flawed. Perhaps your interpretation that he ‘supports’ LT is similarly flawed.

If there are any delays in getting information out, it could be because Bishop Doran was diagnosed with cancer last year, and spent quite a bit of time recovering. I’m sure that a lot of the less urgent projects were put aside.

Also, as I mentioned, our diocese is celebrating its centennial this year, so there are lots of events attended by the Bishop.

And we have that surplus of vocations for him to watch over!

What survey? Can you please post a link? Thanks.

Perhaps you are correct and I am wrong about Bishop Doran. (Funny that I live here and hear him all the time and listen to his radio show and attend parishes in his diocese, etc., and you don’t. But you do seem to have an ability to know what people are thinking that you have never met before.)

I will do what the Bishop says. I will play what I am told to play. I am an accompanist. An accompanist does not lead, they follow. If I am handed a stack of whatever, I will play it for the Church.

If I cannot play it, well, I’ll either try to learn, or bow out so that someone who can play it will play it.

I may be incorrect, but I think that piano has no place in traditional Catholic music literature. Am I correct?

Considering how few organists there are (benedictgal had to go outside of the Church to find them for her affair), I think that when OCP music is banned and traditional Catholicl music is restored, many Catholic parishes will have no music at all. How very sad.

But whatever Bishop Doran says is fine with me. He is the apostle. If I am misinterpreting his actions and words, then it is me who at fault, not him.

However, I insist that since all of the parishes in his diocese still offer OCP music for most of their Masses (including a good selection of traditional Catholic hymns that are to be found in the OCP hymnals), that Bishop Doran does not consider the situation serious enough to warrant banning OCP music or take some of the other actions that many of you seem to think he should take.

I think he is handing this back to the individuals in parishes who are in charge of music and liturgy. It is up to them to implement his suggestions.

As of yet, I have not heard of any churches where the music director has been disciplined for failing to implement the Bishop’s suggestions.

It is not up to me. I am the pianist, not the liturgical director. I will never be a liturgical director.

Since the priest has the authority in his own parish to approve and disapprove music selections, I am doing no wrong to play (and sing) what the priest allows.

We will be attending the Mass that he presides over in a few hours. I’ll try to find time to report back.

 

[Sarabande]

Cat - It sounds like you come from a great diocese and have a wonderful Bishop. From what you have said and also from what snhs has posted regarding him, he is doing a good job as being a pastor to his diocese. It is always nice to hear of good bishops. Being head of anything that large is a huge balancing act. There is a lot of prioritizing which is very understandable. It also appears that he has been working with the quality of liturgical music - not throwing the baby out with the bathwater - but also saying that although there is good modern music for mass, there is also a lot of what he calls ‘dreck’ which he’d like to be eliminated. But he knows his diocese better than most and is probably dealing with it in the best way for the people in the diocese. I will say a prayer for him in regards to his cancer and for shepherding his diocese.

snhs - Thank you very much for the further information and you’re welcome!! And, yes, I believe that what is happening at the upper levels of our archdiocese is working its way down. It’s a slow process, but within the 5 years he’s been here, I have noticed a change in all aspects - not just in the music liturgy. I don’t believe it is a coincidence. I know with him being here has made my colleague’s job much less of a headache in terms of the liturgical music selections.

 

[snhs]

If there are any delays in getting information out, it could be because Bishop Doran was diagnosed with cancer last year, and spent quite a bit of time recovering. I’m sure that a lot of the less urgent projects were put aside.

Also, as I mentioned, our diocese is celebrating its centennial this year, so there are lots of events attended by the Bishop.

And we have that surplus of vocations for him to watch over!

What survey? Can you please post a link? Thanks.

Perhaps you are correct and I am wrong about Bishop Doran. (Funny that I live here and hear him all the time and listen to his radio show and attend parishes in his diocese, etc., and you don’t. But you do seem to have an ability to know what people are thinking that you have never met before.)

I will do what the Bishop says. I will play what I am told to play. I am an accompanist. An accompanist does not lead, they follow. If I am handed a stack of whatever, I will play it for the Church.

If I cannot play it, well, I’ll either try to learn, or bow out so that someone who can play it will play it.

I may be incorrect, but I think that piano has no place in traditional Catholic music literature. Am I correct?

Considering how few organists there are (benedictgal had to go outside of the Church to find them for her affair), I think that when OCP music is banned and traditional Catholicl music is restored, many Catholic parishes will have no music at all. How very sad.

But whatever Bishop Doran says is fine with me. He is the apostle. If I am misinterpreting his actions and words, then it is me who at fault, not him.

However, I insist that since all of the parishes in his diocese still offer OCP music for most of their Masses (including a good selection of traditional Catholic hymns that are to be found in the OCP hymnals), that Bishop Doran does not consider the situation serious enough to warrant banning OCP music or take some of the other actions that many of you seem to think he should take.

I think he is handing this back to the individuals in parishes who are in charge of music and liturgy. It is up to them to implement his suggestions.

As of yet, I have not heard of any churches where the music director has been disciplined for failing to implement the Bishop’s suggestions.

It is not up to me. I am the pianist, not the liturgical director. I will never be a liturgical director.

Since the priest has the authority in his own parish to approve and disapprove music selections, I am doing no wrong to play (and sing) what the priest allows.

We will be attending the Mass that he presides over in a few hours. I’ll try to find time to report back.

Well if you had taken the time to look at one of the articles I had referred you to regarding the DPC meeting which was published on June 15, 2007 it opens “Bishop Thomas G. Doran’s health was but a small part of his comments at the June 2 meeting of the Diocesan Pastoral Council.”. So despite the fact that he’d been diagnosed with cancer he still thought it important enough to ask the DPC to address the topic of “propriety of liturgical music”. And his comments from his column were in fact after that date. It seems apparent that if he considered it important enough to need addressing despite his health concerns it is doubtful to be one of those ‘less urgent projects’.

I’ve posted a link, you were too busy quizzing me on my geographical location to respond to that issue. Indeed you actually responded to that post twice, failed to respond to many of the points made but… . Anyway here is the link again.

I don’t think I’ve claimed mind reading powers of any description. I have always trusted Bishops and Popes to be aware of what they are writing unless there are extenuating circumstances obviously, so when Bishop Doran wrote that column on music I take it as being a representation of his view on it. Now if you happen to have another source written by Bishop Doran where he expresses his support for LT and the music which accompanies it then by all means present it. Until then I’m afraid what you think Bishop Doran thinks can not be accepted as being what he thinks…which of us was it who was claiming an ability to know what people think again?

The piano wasn’t invented when the Catholic tradition of Liturgical music began, so in that respect yes. Having said it depends how traditional you want to be.

I don’t suppose anyone has ever pointed out to you that an Organ although having far more keyboards than a piano actually has more or less exactly the same key configuration? If need be pianists can transfer to organ with fairly minimal practice and can gradually add in more parts of the melody as they gain confidence. It wouldn’t be ideal certainly but over time it would be more than adequate.

“I think that when OCP music is banned and traditional Catholicl music is restored, many Catholic parishes will have no music at all. How very sad.”

Does this mean you now accept this as an inevitability? Don’t suppose it has ever been pointed out to you that people can sing unaccompanied? And as for how very sad, I’m not sure I’d agree with you. I would be more than happy to trade the vast majority of stuff which “is not from the Catholic tradition of sacramental theology, or piety or devotion”, and certainly all of the “dreck”, if only we can regain some of the hymnals and the music which “were drawn from Catholic sources”.

Yet he has considered it serious enough to have the DCP address the “propriety of liturgical music”? Don’t know but it sounds like he is looking upon it as something which needs addressed at the Diocesan level. And as you admit that “all of the parishes in his diocese still offer OCP music for most of their Masses” it sounds like the problem lies there, no? It also seems to fall short of this support the Bishop had for it earlier.

For some reason I don’t think so. Why would it be addressed by the DPC rather than the Diocesan Liturgical Commission if that were the case? And why would Fr. Slampak, chairman of the DLC, have felt the need to bring up “the struggle that sometimes can exist between pastors and parish liturgists”? It seems these problems may be caused by the “parish liturgists”, so although they may be part of the solution I think it may be left to the Priests to ultimately carry it forward.

Well that isn’t surprising. If the Bishop didn’t get the final result from the DPC until their September meeting it wouldn’t get to the Council of Priests until some time this year. After which it will probably be too close to the Summer to see major changes happening. It takes time to implement change, and I think it will probably be fairly gradual, similar to the process Sarabande mentioned earlier.

 

[japhy]

Considering how few organists there are (benedictgal had to go outside of the Church to find them for her affair), I think that when OCP music is banned and traditional Catholicl music is restored, many Catholic parishes will have no music at all. How very sad.

All the more reason for serious Catholic musicians to rediscover the organ and the repertoire of traditional Catholic music; and for parishes to begin re-introducing chant (even a capella) into their liturgies.

 

[michelle_p]

All the more reason for serious Catholic musicians to rediscover the organ and the repertoire of traditional Catholic music; and for parishes to begin re-introducing chant (even a capella) into their liturgies.

It is all fine and good to while away the day, ranting and raving about the “way it oughta be” in the Church.

In the meantime, there’s about a billion of us out here who are living our faith daily for what it is, not what a handful say it should be.

Have a great weekend,

'chelle

 

[dconklin]

All the more reason for serious Catholic musicians to rediscover the organ and the repertoire of traditional Catholic music; and for parishes to begin re-introducing chant (even a capella) into their liturgies.

I am not sure we want to hear the priests at my church chant. The Deacon tries, but the priests were blessed with other gifts.

 

[japhy]

In the meantime, there’s about a billion of us out here who are living our faith daily for what it is, not what a handful say it should be.

I never said anything about people not “living [their] faith daily” because they don’t have chant at their parishes. And in case you haven’t been following along, it is the expressed desire of the Church to have Latin chants in the Mass; it’s not some secret cabal intent on turning Catholics into drones.

Have a great weekend

You too! Benedicere!

 

[japhy]

I am not sure we want to hear the priests at my church chant.

That’s why God invented recto tono!

 

[Cat]

Well if you had taken the time to look at one of the articles I had referred you to regarding the DPC meeting which was published on June 15, 2007 it opens “Bishop Thomas G. Doran’s health was but a small part of his comments at the June 2 meeting of the Diocesan Pastoral Council.”. So despite the fact that he’d been diagnosed with cancer he still thought it important enough to ask the DPC to address the topic of “propriety of liturgical music”. And his comments from his column were in fact after that date. It seems apparent that if he considered it important enough to need addressing despite his health concerns it is doubtful to be one of those ‘less urgent projects’.

I’ve posted a link, you were too busy quizzing me on my geographical location to respond to that issue.** Indeed you actually responded to that post twice, failed to respond to many of the points made but… . Anyway **here is the link again.

I don’t think I’ve claimed mind reading powers of any description. I have always trusted Bishops and Popes to be aware of what they are writing unless there are extenuating circumstances obviously, so when Bishop Doran wrote that column on music I take it as being a representation of his view on it. Now if you happen to have another source written by Bishop Doran where he expresses his support for LT and the music which accompanies it then by all means present it. Until then I’m afraid what you think Bishop Doran thinks can not be accepted as being what he thinks…which of us was it who was claiming an ability to know what people think again?

The piano wasn’t invented when the Catholic tradition of Liturgical music began, so in that respect yes. Having said it depends how traditional you want to be.

I don’t suppose anyone has ever pointed out to you that an Organ although having far more keyboards than a piano actually has more or less exactly the same key configuration? If need be pianists can transfer to organ with fairly minimal practice and can gradually add in more parts of the melody as they gain confidence. It wouldn’t be ideal certainly but over time it would be more than adequate.

“I think that when OCP music is banned and traditional Catholicl music is restored, many Catholic parishes will have no music at all. How very sad.”

Does this mean you now accept this as an inevitability? Don’t suppose it has ever been pointed out to you that people can sing unaccompanied? And as for how very sad, I’m not sure I’d agree with you. I would be more than happy to trade the vast majority of stuff which “is not from the Catholic tradition of sacramental theology, or piety or devotion”, and certainly all of the “dreck”, if only we can regain some of the hymnals and the music which “were drawn from Catholic sources”.

Yet he has considered it serious enough to have the DCP address the “propriety of liturgical music”? Don’t know but it sounds like he is looking upon it as something which needs addressed at the Diocesan level. And as you admit that “all of the parishes in his diocese still offer OCP music for most of their Masses” it sounds like the problem lies there, no? It also seems to fall short of this support the Bishop had for it earlier.

For some reason I don’t think so. Why would it be addressed by the DPC rather than the Diocesan Liturgical Commission if that were the case? And why would Fr. Slampak, chairman of the DLC, have felt the need to bring up “the struggle that sometimes can exist between pastors and parish liturgists”? It seems these problems may be caused by the “parish liturgists”, so although they may be part of the solution I think it may be left to the Priests to ultimately carry it forward.

Well that isn’t surprising. If the Bishop didn’t get the final result from the DPC until their September meeting it wouldn’t get to the Council of Priests until some time this year. After which it will probably be too close to the Summer to see major changes happening. It takes time to implement change, and I think it will probably be fairly gradual, similar to the process Sarabande mentioned earlier.

snhs, I’m going to give you a little “mom” advice. As a teenager, I hope you will take it and use it.

The comment that I have bolded above is phrased rudely.

The only reason that I have been able to spend as much time as I have on this forum the last few days is that I came home sick from work in the middle of the day on Thursday.

Usually I have about an hour a day to spend on Foruming, and I participate in several other forums (ice skating, Robert Patrick, X-Files, The Unit, a Protestant forum, etc.).

The implication in your post is that I am either deliberately ignoring parts of your posts or that I am too ignorant to read and comprehend them.

I assure you that neither of your assumptions about me is true. I simply missed this as I was trying to get through as much of the posts on this thread as possible, including yours.

I am not some kind of anal robot that can notice and respond to every single point that you or any other poster makes.

I have mentioned to you before that people have to work with what they have. I have an hour or so a day. More when I’m home sick. But that’s it. And there are a lot of forums to respond to (I’m friends with a lot of people on the skating forums, so it’s more personal and fun). Most people can’t possibly hit everything.

As a mom, I tell you that you will get a LOT more flies with honey than vinegar. It would be wise (and Biblical) for you to speak (and write) with respect to everyone, but especially to mothers, if for no other reason, for the Sake of the Blessed Mother.

I would STRONGLY suggest that you attempt to eliminate ALL forms of sarcasm from your writing in online forums. It’s difficult to do, I know. In real life, we so often use a sarcastic comment in our work or school life–but the difference is, people understand from our body language, facial expressions, and voice tone and timbre that we ARE using sarcasm (e.g., when I say, “BOY, I’m SURE GLAD to be here at WORK instead of at HOME relaxing!”) Also in real life, we can communicate that we are not attempting to insult or denigrate anyone through our use of sarcasm; we’re just having a little fun and trying to lighten things up.

But online, it is often difficult to determine the tone of the sarcastic comments. They come across as insulting and demeaning.

I am trying to eliminate any sarcasm from my posts on this forum and the other religious forum that I am involved with. I am trying to let my “yes be yes and my no be no.”

I would suggest that you do the same.

I hope you will take this advice to heart. It will do you much good in your life. I can tell you that there are many times when I was young (and even now that I am 51) that I did NOT follow this advice, and ended up grovelling and apologizing to the person(s) that I offended. Sometimes I ended up losing certain cherished things because of a sarcastic comment.

So be kinder and more patient with people.

 

[snhs]

The comment that I have bolded above is phrased rudely.

The only reason that I have been able to spend as much time as I have on this forum the last few days is that I came home sick from work in the middle of the day on Thursday.

…

The implication in your post is that I am either deliberately ignoring parts of your posts or that I am too ignorant to read and comprehend them.

I assure you that neither of your assumptions about me is true. I simply missed this as I was trying to get through as much of the posts on this thread as possible, including yours.

I am not some kind of anal robot that can notice and respond to every single point that you or any other poster makes.

I have mentioned to you before that people have to work with what they have. I have an hour or so a day. More when I’m home sick. But that’s it. And there are a lot of forums to respond to (I’m friends with a lot of people on the skating forums, so it’s more personal and fun). Most people can’t possibly hit everything.

As a mom, I tell you that you will get a LOT more flies with honey than vinegar. It would be wise (and Biblical) for you to speak (and write) with respect to everyone, but especially to mothers, if for no other reason, for the Sake of the Blessed Mother.

I would STRONGLY suggest that you attempt to eliminate ALL forms of sarcasm from your writing in online forums. It’s difficult to do, I know. In real life, we so often use a sarcastic comment in our work or school life–but the difference is, people understand from our body language, facial expressions, and voice tone and timbre that we ARE using sarcasm (e.g., when I say, “BOY, I’m SURE GLAD to be here at WORK instead of at HOME relaxing!”) Also in real life, we can communicate that we are not attempting to insult or denigrate anyone through our use of sarcasm; we’re just having a little fun and trying to lighten things up.

This may come as a surprise but teenagers also have others things to do. When I took the time to provide evidence for my position, both of which sources were American in origin, you instead found the time to pick up on a minor spelling difference and gave the impression to anyone reading that this somehow invalidated my views on the topic. One word spelt in the British way, yet you missed two hyperlinks and several other points which are of far more importance to the topic than where I come from.

Similarly I took the time yesterday to look up that link again, to respond to your other queries and contest your various points. Yet instead of using whatever limited time you might have had to reply to points of substance you picked up on one phrase and as you accept “it is often difficult to determine the tone of the sarcastic comments”. It may have appeared that that was less generously phrased than it might have been, but it saved me quite a considerable amount of time relative to looking up and rephrasing all of the points I had already made. To date people have attempted to negate my argument on the basis of my age, and more recently on where I’m from, however to my knowledge they have yet to challenge it with any efficacy on the basis of a well reasoned line of argumentation.

If you only have sufficient time to respond to one or two points then by all means do so. But make them points of substance rather than picking up on minor or entirely irrelevant things which give the impression, intentional or otherwise, that the facts of the argument are being dodged.

Perhaps you could begin by explaining why the views of American teenagers which were surveyed in that study are almost the polar opposite of what you were telling us teenagers thought? You might prefer to explain individual parts for example, “The traditional choral sound was given its highest ratings by the Catholic and Lutheran students in the study” or maybe the comment from unchurched students several of whom wrote, of contemporary Christian music, “This sounds like my parents’ music!”. Or maybe you could answer this question from earlier “Can you possibly explain how we are undermining their authority when it is the view of your own Bishop, and the view of the current and several previous Bishops of Rome that is being presented?”.