Teleology important for science

[tonyrey]

Or, more likely a deification of self which bleeds over into science.

I think Lewis hits the nail on the head when he speaks of the three parts to morality:

1. The relationships between moral agents
2. The correct internal workings of each moral agent
3. The purpose or ends for which moral agents exist

youtu.be/MtTeCyrgjIQ

It seems to me that Lewis is correct that the third (which is primarily concerned with the question of teleology) determines the nature and correctness of the other two. It also determines the correctness of the scientific endeavor.

Whether or not to conduct inquiry into something (science in a general sense) hinges upon whether such an inquiry is good in itself – not merely “good” for me or us, but actually good. If knowing about anything will lead to determinably bad ends, why would any moral agent will to know about such things?

The ends of knowledge – of what is to be known – can only be worthwhile if they are determinably good, which means we ought to be more concerned about the nature of the good than in pursuit of knowledge for its own sake; unless a case can be made that simply knowing a lot is, indeed, good for its own sake. Yet, even that requires an understanding of the good and that all knowledge qua knowledge will be good.

I agree. Science doesn’t exist in a vacuum and implies the existence of scientists.
Being amoral it gives no adequate explanation of morality and reduces us to mammals which exist for no **reason **whatsoever.

 

[IWantGod]

and reduces us to mammals which exist for no **reason **whatsoever.

No it doesn’t

 

[tonyrey]

No it doesn’t

Please explain how science explains moral values and the purpose of our existence.

 

[STT]

Please explain how science explains moral values and the purpose of our existence.

I am wondering what is the purpose of life from your point of view. I really sometimes struggle with my life because it lacks any meaning. I of course keep myself busy with loving others but I cannot help it sometimes.

 

[IWantGod]

Please explain how science explains moral values and the purpose of our existence.

It doesn’t, but that’s not the same thing as pushing the philosophical viewpoint that there is no moral value or purpose

 

[tonyrey]

Please explain how science explains moral values and the purpose of our existence.

It is a natural temptation when we start thinking deeply but the very fact that you keep yourself busy with loving others shows you have found the purpose of life! Surely there is nothing more important than trying to make others happy and help them whenever we can - as Jesus did. By doing that we make ourselves happy and liberate ourselves from ourselves.

 

[tonyrey]

Please explain how science explains moral values and the purpose of our existence.

That’s precisely what happens when people think science can replace philosophy and explain everything! “God exists” is a philosophical statement.

 

[STT]

It is a natural temptation when we start thinking deeply but the very fact that you keep yourself busy with loving others shows you have found the purpose of life! Surely there is nothing more important than trying to make others happy and help them whenever we can - as Jesus did. By doing that we make ourselves happy and liberate ourselves from ourselves.

All you said is good and dandy. In fact I try my best to love others, make them happy and keep myself in good mood.

But you didn’t explain that what is the meaning from your point of view. I sometimes even struggle to define it. Do you have any definition for meaning?

 

[tonyrey]

All you said is good and dandy. In fact I try my best to love others, make them happy and keep myself in good mood.

But you didn’t explain that what is the meaning from your point of view. I sometimes even struggle to define it. Do you have any definition for meaning?

The meaning - and best test - of any belief or philosophy is whether it corresponds to **the way we live **and by its positive results. We are essentially social beings even though we also have a need for privacy. No reasonable person behaves like a wild animal or treats others as if they are worthless and insignificant. Of course there are degrees of selfishness but on the whole people are not extremists or psychopaths. Aristotle’s golden mean is a good guide to the meaning of life! We also create meaning for ourselves by choosing what to believe, how to live and who to love. In the words of John Keats this is “a vale of soul making” in which we develop morally, socially and spiritually by overcoming the challenges of life, suffering and death:

A thing of beauty is a joy for ever:
Its loveliness increases; it will never
Pass into nothingness; but still will keep
A bower quiet for us, and a sleep
Full of sweet dreams, and health, and quiet breathing.
Therefore, on every morrow, are we wreathing
A flowery band to bind us to the earth,
Spite of despondence, of the inhuman dearth
Of noble natures, of the gloomy days,
Of all the unhealthy and o’er-darkened ways
Made for our searching: yes, in spite of all,
Some shape of beauty moves away the pall
From our dark spirits. Such the sun, the moon,
Trees old and young, sprouting a shady boon
For simple sheep; and such are daffodils
With the green world they live in; and clear rills
That for themselves a cooling covert make
‘Gainst the hot season; the mid forest brake,
Rich with a sprinkling of fair musk-rose blooms:
And such too is the grandeur of the dooms
We have imagined for the mighty dead;
All lovely tales that we have heard or read:
An endless fountain of immortal drink,
Pouring unto us from the heaven’s brink.
Nor do we merely feel these essences
For one short hour; no, even as the trees
That whisper round a temple become soon
Dear as the temple’s self, so does the moon,
The passion poesy, glories infinite,
Haunt us till they become a cheering light
Unto our souls, and bound to us so fast,
That, whether there be shine, or gloom o’ercast,
They alway must be with us, or we die.

 

[STT]

The meaning - and best test - of any belief or philosophy is whether it corresponds to **the way we live **and by its positive results.

That everybody knows. You define a purpose for your life, positive result, and live along. Having a purpose however does not give any meaning to life.

We are essentially social beings even though we also have a need for privacy. No reasonable person behaves like a wild animal or treats others as if they are worthless and insignificant. Of course there are degrees of selfishness but on the whole people are not extremists or psychopaths. Aristotle’s golden mean is a good guide to the meaning of life! We also create meaning for ourselves by choosing what to believe, how to live and who to love. In the words of John Keats this is “a vale of soul making” in which we develop morally, socially and spiritually by overcoming the challenges of life, suffering and death:

What is Aristotle’s Golden mean?

 

[tonyrey]

The meaning - and best test - of any belief or philosophy is whether it corresponds to **the way we live **

Not everyone realises the philosophical implications of their beliefs.

Having a purpose however does not give any meaning to life.

It is irrational to have a meaningless purpose! A purpose may not give a meaning to the whole of life but it certainly gives meaning to aspects of life.

What is Aristotle’s Golden mean?

In Ancient Greek philosophy, especially that of Aristotle, the golden mean or golden middle way is the desirable middle between two extremes, one of excess and the other of deficiency. For example, in the Aristotelian view, courage is a virtue, but if taken to excess would manifest as recklessness, and, in deficiency, cowardice.

• wikipedia

 

[STT]

Not everyone realises the philosophical implications of their beliefs.

I believe that that is common sense. Even my mother who does not know philosophy is full aware of that.

It is irrational to have a meaningless purpose!

Well, I believe that it is impossible to have a meaning unless you could explain me what is meaning?, how we can gain it?, what is definition of meaning?, etc.

I cannot even define meaning.

A purpose may not give a meaning to the whole of life but it certainly gives meaning to aspects of life.

Life without its aspects is empty so I don’t understand what you are claiming here.

 

[tonyrey]

I believe that that is common sense.

Life without its aspects is empty so I don’t understand what you are claiming here.There is a difference between no aspects and some aspects…

[/QUOTE]

 

[Charlemagne_III]

It is a natural temptation when we start thinking deeply but the very fact that you keep yourself busy with loving others shows you have found the purpose of life!

And this is a purpose that we sense by our very nature. We can deny that purpose, but we cannot annihilate it, just as we can defy the natural law of gravity by escaping Earth’s atmosphere, but in that defiance cannot annihilate the law of gravity that gives purpose to our being since we could never have come to exist without it.

 

[tonyrey]

It is a natural temptation when we start thinking deeply but the very fact that you keep yourself busy with loving others shows you have found the purpose of life!

I cannot understand how anyone can reject the significance of love…

 

[tonyrey]

I cannot understand how anyone can reject the significance of love…

And that is the greatest problem for those who believe science will eventually explain all human behaviour. Ironically science itself is derived from the teleological activity of scientists and their very existence which is due to God’s love and their parents’ love…

 

[Peter_Plato]

I believe that that is common sense. Even my mother who does not know philosophy is full aware of that.

Well, I believe that it is impossible to have a meaning unless you could explain me what is meaning?, how we can gain it?, what is definition of meaning?, etc.

I cannot even define meaning.

Meaning is seeing the whole of existence and all things within it in their proper perspective along with grasping the real significance of each relative to its place in the whole.

Meaning, in this life, is more of a quest to find that proper perspective and retain it in the face of challenges to it. By facing those challenges our sense of meaning is refined – we abandon the aspects which are found to be false and retain those which are true.

Kind of like Michelangelo sculpting the statute of David from a raw, undefined, block of marble. The more we seek meaning (and engross ourselves in searching for it) the more skilled (artists) we become uncovering it. The skills we develop in searching it out become the means by which it is revealed.

In reality, however, it is our sincerity, perspicacity, self-discipline and diligence which are key in the quest. Actually, grace is the most crucial element, but that isn’t obvious to most searchers in the early stages.

 

[STT]

Meaning is seeing the whole of existence and all things within it in their proper perspective along with grasping the real significance of each relative to its place in the whole.

To me meaning is more than the whole existence. Meaning to me is something which allows last long existence possible.

Meaning, in this life, is more of a quest to find that proper perspective and retain it in the face of challenges to it. By facing those challenges our sense of meaning is refined – we abandon the aspects which are found to be false and retain those which are true.

I don’t have a definition for meaning myself but I don’t think that meaning is a quest. To me even purpose is not even close to meaning. Meaning is something that give a real taste to life, something that give us a strong reason to stand life no matter how long and harsh life is. Meaning is really something which everybody needs it when it comes to eternal life because at the end the most magnificent experience cannot last long.

Kind of like Michelangelo sculpting the statute of David from a raw, undefined, block of marble. The more we seek meaning (and engross ourselves in searching for it) the more skilled (artists) we become uncovering it. The skills we develop in searching it out become the means by which it is revealed.

I have being thinking and searching for meaning for a while but I don’t even have a grasp of it.

In reality, however, it is our sincerity, perspicacity, self-discipline and diligence which are key in the quest. Actually, grace is the most crucial element, but that isn’t obvious to most searchers in the early stages.

I agree with you that these attributes are important in any quest but I think one needs more than this. I believe that meaning can be acquired from a search within. One needs to turn inside out to find meaning in the core of its soul, if there is any soul. I am not sure if we can find meaning in outside world unless we look for a meaning for relationship between us.

 

[Peter_Plato]

To me meaning is more than the whole existence. Meaning to me is something which allows last long existence possible.

It has to be more than merely “long lasting,” precisely because we get tired of things after a time. So, primarily, meaning has to be all-encompassing or answers every possible question and eventuality – ties everything together, so to speak – before it is made to go on forever.

Trivialities can be long-lasting. But that, by itself, doesn’t mean they have importance or significance.

I don’t have a definition for meaning myself but I don’t think that meaning is a quest.

Well, it seems to me that meaning must be a “quest” in the sense that if it isn’t something that we hold at this moment, it must be “obtained” in some sense by a “movement” of some kind towards it. That movement may be a change about or within us, but that still requires that something – even if that “something” is ourselves – changes.

If you have true meaning, then nothing need change. If you don’t then, apparently, something has to – unless you have predetermined that meaning itself is inconsequential, but that seems self-contradictory: i.e., it is a self-refuting claim that meaning is meaningless.

 

[Aloysium]

As with our bodies, the physical universe makes sense only when we go beyond the mere material activity. Attempting to describe what is happening here as we communicate, in terms of concepts such as atoms, molecules and cellular function, one will totally miss the truth of what it is that we are doing. It is the same with the universe. The cosmos makes sense only by bringing God into the picture, actually at its centre. The universe no more revolves around the material than the firmament revolves around the earth. As the sun is the centre of the solar system, God is the Centre of creation. Material substances exist as they are, doing what is in their nature, countless forms and transformations of being emerging from the eternal Font. In us they act as the substrate for our relational nature, our being in the world. Carbon, hydrogen, oxygen behave as they do; and, united with the spirit of God in us, they participate in the perceptions, considerations and actions of the unity that is the person. Ultimately, time and space, and within it we ourselves, having a free will to become whom we choose to be, are all brought into existence as a manifestation of God’s glory and infinite love.