Maybe this will help more - especially with the story of Merton's youth. Go to answers.com and look up Thomas Merton.
It's no wonder that the psychoses of Merton as a younger adult, as an adult, and as an older adult result in the warnings everyone has read about Merton's "early works" and his "later works". Heed those warnings.
It seems that those who want only to canonize Merton want to find only the good in him - and not just minimize his shortcomings but completely ignore them as if they don't exist. Of course, any standards of Sainthood require that the candidate's entire life and works are on the table - not just the good. And Merton's shortcomings were not restricted to his youth. In his fully mature adulthood (as mature as he could achieve given his upbringing and adult psychoses) Merton instructed his lover (the nurse he carried on with when he could no longer live with the other monks and insisted on his own private quarters on a remote part of the grounds) to write "conscience material" on her correspondence to him so as to break his vows in the monastery by not allowing his abbot to see it. And then, of course, all of the 'dates' the nurse and the hermit had.
It's understandable why his monastery would try to minimize his dark side (one is always reading that some one-dimensional abbot (or abbots) is (are) the one attempting to censor any of his writings that may have referred to his dark side) - as they are reaping the money from the book and memento sales at "Thomas Merton, Incorporated" to this day and into the future.
And the Mertonites only want to look for the good in him and simply ignore the rest . C'est la vie. Up until they want to canonize him. Canonization is the realm of the Church, not the Mertonites. Certainly they can put forth their man - then it is for the Church to decide. But what the Amchurch has done is to have already 'modern-day-canonized' the Modern-Day-Saint - which he is not! That is the main problem with the Mertonites. Let the man rest in peace. And move on to the many, many, many true saints to spend your time and effort in following the narrow and difficult path that they show.I did and found nothing that supports what you posted. Do you have a link?Maybe this will help more - especially with the story of Merton’s youth. Go to answers.com and look up Thomas Merton.
Merton instructed his lover (the nurse he carried on with when he could no longer live with the other monks and insisted on his own private quarters on a remote part of the grounds) to write “conscience material” on her correspondence to him so as to break his vows in the monastery by not allowing his abbot to see it.
Is this fact or hearsay? It’s the first I’ve heard about it.And then, of course, all of the ‘dates’ the nurse and the hermit had.
Maybe it’s because monasteries aren’t in the business of trashing dead people, especially one of their brothers?It’s understandable why his monastery would try to minimize his dark side (one is always reading that some one-dimensional abbot (or abbots) is (are) the one attempting to censor any of his writings that may have referred to his dark side) - as they are reaping the money from the book and memento sales at “Thomas Merton, Incorporated” to this day and into the future.
Well I think it’s better to look at the good in a person than the bad.And the Mertonites only want to look for the good in him and simply ignore the rest .
Whether he gets canonized or not is up to the Church. Although Merton was a great writer and teacher, I doubt that he’ll get canonized.Up until they want to canonize him.
Mertonites don’t like you to know anything but the good, as I said. She was a Catholic nurse engaged to a man in Chicago. Simple Google on 'Thomas Merton Nurse" yields:I did and found nothing that supports what you posted. Do you have a link?
Is this fact or hearsay? It’s the first I’ve heard about it.
Maybe…but this seminary is definitely in the Merton business. Caveat emptor.Maybe it’s because monasteries aren’t in the business of trashing dead people, especially one of their brothers?
I totally agree. I have drawn the line with the Mertonites, however, since their man was ‘trojan horsed’ into my parish in the Amchurch’s RENEW, INC. program a couple of years ago as a Modern Day Saint. (It was never clarified that he was NOT a saint). Since then, all I push for is full disclosure on the guy. Simple as that.Well I think it’s better to look at the good in a person than the bad.
Yup…Whether he gets canonized or not is up to the Church.
… I doubt that he’ll get canonized.
I agree.Heck, if Thomas Kempis(The Imitation of Christ) couldn’t get canonized, I don’t think Merton will make it.
[/SIGN][SIGN] Hello 30miller
It sounds like you question the holiness of Thomas Merton. I cannot obviously change your mind. [/SIGN]
Why can’t you? Don’t understand why that is “obvious” to you.
[SIGN] If you look at how many people his writings have helped (including my own reversion back to Catholicism)…that alone could make him a saint.[/SIGN]
No, that ALONE could not. Simple example: if he had done only that AND spent his entire life until his last breath indulging in the concubines of St. Augustine’s youth - then he could not be a saint. It’s interesting - posters like yourself always seem to have the two words ‘Merton’ and ‘saint’ together on the tip of your tongues. There’s an awful lot more to becoming a saint in the Catholic Church than having a certain percentage of your writings true to the faith. (And another percentage true to the faith of Chuang Tzu, for example).
[SIGN]Whenever I mention his name to someone, they most always reply that he and his writings had a hand in converting them or in bringing them back to the church[/SIGN].
Most people I know don’t know him at all other than from the Amchurch’s incessant promotion of him as a “Modern-Day” Saint. They have been misled.
[SIGN]I prefer not to pass judgement on him, as I totally trust our Church to do that for us. If they decide after their exhaustive canonization protocol that he is or is not a saint, [/SIGN]
I agree wholeheartedly.
[SIGN] Perhaps you’re equating human perfection with sanctity.[/SIGN]
Absolutely not.
[SIGN]Have you ever heard of St. Augustine? Have you ever read his Confessions or City of God?[/SIGN]
Excuse me a minute - I have to move this rock I just crawled out from under…there, that’s better. St. who?
[SIGN]He admits to many wrongdoings.[/SIGN]
That’s ONE of the reasons he is a saint - and a great one, I might add.
[SIGN]It is not the wrongdoings alone that matter, but our willingness to repent and allow the mercy of God to heal us when we realize that we have sinned.[/SIGN]
You are absolutely right. Now, how does this relate to Merton. Merton is no Augustine. He is no Francis of Assisi. He is no John of the Cross. (Note - Mertonites always like to link him somehow to the great saints. And he simply doesn’t belong there).
[SIGN]Maybe you would consider reading some more of him before you pass such a harsh judgement.
Cephas1229,30miller
“Mertonites don’t like you to know anything but the good, as I said. She was a Catholic nurse engaged to a man in Chicago.”
You keep bringing this up. What significance does it have for you?
“I have drawn the line with the Mertonites, however, since their man was ‘trojan horsed’ into my parish in the Amchurch’s RENEW, INC. program a couple of years ago as a Modern Day Saint. (It was never clarified that he was NOT a saint). Since then, all I push for is full disclosure on the guy. Simple as that.”
Wow…you have drawn the line! I’m sure that you set them straight in your parish that Merton was NOT a saint. The church always pushes for full disclosure, and that is why we leave it up to her.
30miller…are you Catholic?
Cephas1229,Hi 30miller
I am sensing a hostility coming from you. I am wondering however, why is it that you could not answer my very simple question and why do you feel the need to ask me to take a breath or two? If you really read what I wrote you would realize that I do not know if Merton will become a saint and the idea is not one I spend a great deal of time thinking about. As I said in my previous post, I leave that to the church.
You say, “Merton is no Augustine. He is no Francis of Assisi. He is no John of the Cross.”
Actually a great many scholars see a connection with Merton and Augustine, and I’ve read some on the similarities with John of the Cross as well.
Since this is the first time I’ve heard it said that Merton has a “multiple personality problem,” when you have the time, could you explain to me where you’ve heard that, or do you have the qualifications to come to that conclusion on your own. Please know that I am not challenging you, I am merely asking a question.
Also, If you would like to continue this dialogue I’m going to ask you to tone down the sarcasm.
“Excuse me a minute - I have to move this rock I just crawled out from under…there, that’s better. St. who?”
“Perhaps you could take a deep breath or two while I respond to your first post (which I have completed now - see above) before your inquisition.
Cephas 1229…are you a Dominican?”
You claim to have read some Merton, “I’ve read quite enough of Merton, thank you.” Would you mind telling me what you’ve read and if you found anything lacking in them. Thanks.
The author of the article that you linked to, seems to do a lot of speculation on just what level this relationship was on. He himself said, “Until the later volumes of his journals appear, we will not have Merton’s complete account of the episode.”Mertonites don’t like you to know anything but the good, as I said. She was a Catholic nurse engaged to a man in Chicago. Simple Google on 'Thomas Merton Nurse" yields
First Things : leaderu.com/ftissues/ft9702/articles/revessay.html
:
What you’re pushing is merely gossip and hear-say against Merton, which actually lacks Christian charity.I have drawn the line with the Mertonites, however, since their man was ‘trojan horsed’ into my parish in the Amchurch’s RENEW, INC. program a couple of years ago as a Modern Day Saint. (It was never clarified that he was NOT a saint). Since then, all I push for is full disclosure on the guy. Simple as that.
[SIGN]30miller
The author of the article that you linked to, seems to do a lot of speculation on just what level this relationship was on. He himself said, “Until the later volumes of his journals appear, we will not have Merton’s complete account of the episode.”
So why is he telling us about it now?
[/SIGN]
Probably in response to you Mertonites having declared Merton’s premature Sainthood. That calls for full disclosure. The author is simply presenting facts. It’s been almost 40 years since Merton’s death. We have done the “Merton records sealed for 25 years after his death” thing - and almost 15 extra to boot. Why don’t you rant for full disclosure now instead of trying to silence those who simply want the whole Merton presented?
[SIGN]Actually they’re in the business of fruit cake. The Order of the Strict Observance receives any profit from his writings.
But contrary to your accusation, it’s not the focus of their ministry.
[/SIGN]
Please cite your source regarding the money. Also - since you profess knowledge of the finances of the monastery, what are those figures?
(And don’t forget the cheese and the Jack Daniels - also the “business” of the monastery).
[SIGN] Then why are you posting dirt in here?[/SIGN]
As I’ve said countless times - full disclosure on your Saint. No other reason. If Mertonites and the Amchurch hadn’t declared his Sainthood - I wouldn’t waste a single keystroke on the man.
One man’s “dirt” is another man’s “full disclosure”.
[SIGN]What you’re pushing is merely gossip and hear-say against Merton, which actually lacks Christian charity.
[/SIGN]
Declaring Merton’s Sainthood and misleading the uninformed lacks Christian charity at the least and in the event it leads any Christian to the Way of Chuang Tzu and away from Christianity it is far worse.
[SIGN]Why would you want to destroy what has led many people to God?
[/SIGN]
The ONLY thing I want to destroy (your words, not mine) is the idea that Merton IS a saint. He is NOT.
[SIGN]You don’t like Merton for reasons you believe are to be true, fine, leave it alone.
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You lilke Merton for reasons you believe (are) to be true, fine, leave Sainthood alone.