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Theban
Guest
Well, my logic is that if a marriage lacks one of the essential parts that make it a marriage (and thereby is invalid), it wouldn’t be any more valid just because the people involved aren’t planning a divorce.We can wait for someone to enlighten us
So if someone suspects that their marriage is invalid I think they should have the Church investigate the matter. This is done, as I understand, by applying for annulment. If the marriage indeed was null, then they can just get married again, with the proper dispositions, and so have a valid marriage.
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Vico
Guest
You mean:
For Catholic law, CIC Can. 1057 §1 shows what can be makes marriage:
And note that when a couple marry without a priest (which can sometimes be done validly) it still requires witnesses:
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His_helpmeet
Guest
In many areas you have to be divorced before you can petition for nullity. There must be objective evidence that the marriage is not salvageable. The best evidence of this is a civil divorce.
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Theban
Guest
Ok, maybe there is a simpler process for what I described. I guess you could just renew your vows and there wouldn’t be a need to know if the marriage up until that point was valid or not.
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JimG
Guest
And yet the Orthdox church permits divorce and remarriage without annulment. The prior marriage is dissolved.
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TheLittleLady
Guest
The majority of people who have a case accepted by the Tribunal will have a marriage found null.
What folks seem to ignore is there is a process that happens before acceptance. This is where the “just because” cases fall out, where cases that have no witnesses, cases are ended for a plethora of reasons.
The most grueling part of many cases is that primary step, giving testimony, finding witnesses to testify, once the case is accepted and under review, it is pretty much waiting.
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TheLittleLady
Guest
Not true. Currently, one cannot begin the petition until a civil divorce is final. One reason is to prevent everyone who has a fight from filing a petition.
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JimR-OCDS
Guest
My position is that it may be that the couple believed they had a valid marriage, but the events following marriage show that such was not the case.
"Therefore what God has joined together, no human being must separate.”
And this is true.
However, many marriages it’s man who has joined together and not God.
As Pope Benedict XVI stated, a lack of faith at the time of the marriage, could be used as grounds for determining an annulment.
Many marriages were social constructs rather than sacramental.
Jim
"Therefore what God has joined together, no human being must separate.”
And this is true.
However, many marriages it’s man who has joined together and not God.
As Pope Benedict XVI stated, a lack of faith at the time of the marriage, could be used as grounds for determining an annulment.
Many marriages were social constructs rather than sacramental.
Jim
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AlNg
Guest
Some are going to say that divorce is a more honest approach, instead of saying that the couple were never married.
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JimG
Guest
Yes, but Jesus says that one who divorces and remarries commits adultery, unless the original marriage was unlawful. So we appear to have a lot of marriages which were not marriages to begin with. And also a lot of people who seem unable to mean what they say when making vows.
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otjm
Guest
“Exactly. The overwhelming majority of people applying for a marriage annulment in the USA will get it.”
You might want to back that statement up with some statistics, and name your source. According to CARA. 7% of Catholics had received a decree of nullity, and 8% did not receive one; leaving 85% never having applied for one. Pardon me if I doubt your statement.
“Now there are a very few cases where annulments are appropriate, for example, in the case of a situation where the person attempting a marriage is already married and has concealed that fact.”
Not according to Canon law.
Joseph Kennedy is hardly a person I would quote about things Catholic.
Please state the date and source of your state,emt by Cardinal Kasper.
"That’s because fewer people are getting married, and of course, the number is still high, somewhere around 30,000 which is a big jump from 9 in 1929. ".
Of course they are different; Canon Law changed to recognize issues impacting consent.
We are not discussing what the Orthodox Church does or does not do. That is irrelevant.
You might want to back that statement up with some statistics, and name your source. According to CARA. 7% of Catholics had received a decree of nullity, and 8% did not receive one; leaving 85% never having applied for one. Pardon me if I doubt your statement.
“Now there are a very few cases where annulments are appropriate, for example, in the case of a situation where the person attempting a marriage is already married and has concealed that fact.”
Not according to Canon law.
Joseph Kennedy is hardly a person I would quote about things Catholic.
Please state the date and source of your state,emt by Cardinal Kasper.
"That’s because fewer people are getting married, and of course, the number is still high, somewhere around 30,000 which is a big jump from 9 in 1929. ".
Of course they are different; Canon Law changed to recognize issues impacting consent.
We are not discussing what the Orthodox Church does or does not do. That is irrelevant.
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KevinK
Guest
Why not for something so important?
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mythbuster1
Guest
Think about it, can a man marry his half-sister? No, such a thing is forbidden by Divine Law, and can never bind a man. Now, given that adultery and similar sexual sins can produce offspring who do not know of each other’s existence, it could certainly come to pass that a man and woman present themselves for marriage unaware of the fact that they are half-siblings. They cannot marry, but nobody is aware of this fact when they attempt to marry, so they go through the Rite of Matrimony and have relations. Some time later, they have a child, and when a DNA sample is taken of the child, the parents learn they are half-siblings. At this point, they must cease relations, because they are not and never could be married.
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Theban
Guest
Because it is not necessary. If the people applying for annulment are honest, the Church will be able to accurately tell whether the marriage was lawful or not. If they lie in order to procure an annulment, then they will know that they have sinned, and that the annulment cannot be valid.
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AlNg
Guest
“take the case of a couple who are ten years married and have children, in the first years they had a happy marriage, but for different reasons the marriage fell apart. This marriage was a reality, and to say it was canonically null and void does not make sense to me. This is an abstract canonical construction. It’s divorce in a Catholic way, in a dishonest way.”
America, The Jesuit Review. In All Things
Cardinal Kasper: Some Fear a Domino Effect at the Synod on the Family
Gerard O’Connell
September 28, 2014
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AlNg
Guest
I recommend that people who are interested in the statistics of the Catholic Church refer to the “Statistical Yearbook of the Church” Rome. Vatican Press. In various yearbooks one will find the outcome of US First Instance Ordinary Process Cases Concluded by sentence for various years. For one example:
year 1991
number concluded 41,820
number for nullity 41,121
number against nullity 699
percent nullified 98.3
Other years show similar results with about 97% of the cases tried returned for nullity and 3% of the cases tried against nullity.
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mythbuster1
Guest
In the absence of the marriage being entered into based on a lie or contrary to the law of nature, he’s right.
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Usagi
Guest
I don’t doubt that there are dishonest petitions for a declaration of nullity. And I’ll admit that the wider variety of possible impediments acknowledged today (including ones psychological and entirely internal to the participants) certainly makes things fuzzier than in earlier times (though I wouldn’t want the Church to abandon that greater understanding of psychological nuance, either, whether considering annulment or suicide or the conditions of mortal sin).
But being married for however-many years and having however-many kids and grandkids is not evidence either way. To see this, look at the obvious cases. If, after that 10 or 20 years, a previous spouse turns up alive, or evidence of consanguinity is found (ew), then despite having a wedding and living out a putative marriage in all innocence, the couple cannot have been legally or validly married. No one is saying that those years and that relationship literally cease to exist, but upon investigation, the legal reality turns out to be something other than what was believed.
But being married for however-many years and having however-many kids and grandkids is not evidence either way. To see this, look at the obvious cases. If, after that 10 or 20 years, a previous spouse turns up alive, or evidence of consanguinity is found (ew), then despite having a wedding and living out a putative marriage in all innocence, the couple cannot have been legally or validly married. No one is saying that those years and that relationship literally cease to exist, but upon investigation, the legal reality turns out to be something other than what was believed.
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TheLittleLady
Guest
What percentage of petitions were never accepted by the Tribunal? As has been explained by many experienced people on these forums (Advocates, Canonists, Clergy, etc.) a large percentage of attempted petitions are never accepted. Why not speak to an Advocate at your parish or someone at your Tribunal to get a grasp of the process.
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