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AbeOman
Guest
From Islamic point of view this is a good start, usc.edu/dept/MSA/notislam/misconceptions.html
This link was referred to my by one of our bothers under the nick “montalban”.
It worthy of reading.
Thanks
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AbeOman
Guest
Perhaps you need to change your tv channel and watch the ones that shows thousands and thousands of Muslims protesting against violence and exteremism. I suggest you do that and then you will have answers to your very valid questions.How come Muslims who say that Islam is peaceful never do anything to protest their fellow brethren blowing things up? You don’t see mass protests in Iraq speaking out against the violence.
Thanks
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AbeOman
Guest
by the looks of it, it’s quite candle lit cemetery but how does that mean “peace in Islamic style”…?
Or have I missed something…?
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Montalban
Guest
They’re all dead.
That’s Islamic peace. You kill all non-Moslems you can and then you have peace.
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AbeOman
Guest
How odd…? and how old are you, if you allow me to ask…?
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ralphinal
Guest
Abe,
Thank you for that link to the misconception website. I did find the information helpful. Perhaps, however, you can help me with a different question related to this topic.
We are told that, at most, only 10% of all Muslims hold to the form of Islam that creates terrorists. And of that 10%, only a small percentage would actually do anything like a terrorist attack. If these numbers are true, and I do not question that part of it, then why do the other 90%, the ones who want to live peacefully with us, not do more to stop them? I am not attacking Islam, nor am I questioning the faith. I am trying to understand how peaceful the overall practice is.
Thank you for that link to the misconception website. I did find the information helpful. Perhaps, however, you can help me with a different question related to this topic.
We are told that, at most, only 10% of all Muslims hold to the form of Islam that creates terrorists. And of that 10%, only a small percentage would actually do anything like a terrorist attack. If these numbers are true, and I do not question that part of it, then why do the other 90%, the ones who want to live peacefully with us, not do more to stop them? I am not attacking Islam, nor am I questioning the faith. I am trying to understand how peaceful the overall practice is.
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AbeOman
Guest
Thanks so much for your thoughtfulness and very constructive debating, moreover, I’m glad the link was helpful to you.
Now, let’s address your first point, let’s say for argument sake that 10% all Muslims are violent extremist or on their way to become violent extremists then that would mean about 100 to 150million bloodthirsty-half crazed-very dangerous group of Muslims and that represents lot more than the total populations of say Egypt or Nigeria or all the Muslim in some major Muslim countries compounded. so would not you agree with me that number is somewhat over exaggerated…? think about it that means whole lot of nut-heads running loose…!
Second, let’s examine what are we addressing here, are we talking about Islam as religion or Muslims as those who practise and believe in Islam, if we are talking about the first, then I would urge you to study, read more and try to spend sometime at Islamic centers, if your time permits or interested to do so, because whatever I say would not represent a very objective point of view to you and you should not take my word for it or any body else for that matter.
However, if we are talking the later, i.e Muslims, then yes, I will say it without any hesitation that we have major problems, just to prove my point, the number of deaths resulting from suicide bombs in Pakistan over the last few months are in hundreds, same if not more in Iraq, so to conclude, What do think these folks who are committing all these horrendous crimes as Muslims…? personally, I do not think they are not good Muslims, are they misguided and motivated by their own whims and wishes, absolutely yes, are the majority of Muslims sick and tired of them, hell, yes and that is why we are having changes in our education systems, that is why lots of reforms both politically and religion are taking place in so many Islamic countries countries.
Are there other outside forces and factors contributing or fueling these problems , without a doubt, yes, so you see in the final analyses religion teaches us how best to live our life’s but it does not force us to choose the how itself.
Again, thanks so much for your understanding and please do let me know if there is any points I missed out.
God bless.
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ralphinal
Guest
I see your point about the distinction between true Muslims and those who are name only. That is not unique to any religion. My question is more along the lines of the non-violent, peaceful types.
For example, when the folks in Europe were rioting about the depiction of Mohammid in the cartoon (I do not want to discuss the issue of the cartoon itself, just the riots), why did we not see/hear from voices of calm and peace? Why do the more moderate minded Muslims and Muslim governments not actively hunt down terrorist groups? It seems like silence is the course of action that is most common, and to many non-Muslims, silence sounds like consent.
For example, when the folks in Europe were rioting about the depiction of Mohammid in the cartoon (I do not want to discuss the issue of the cartoon itself, just the riots), why did we not see/hear from voices of calm and peace? Why do the more moderate minded Muslims and Muslim governments not actively hunt down terrorist groups? It seems like silence is the course of action that is most common, and to many non-Muslims, silence sounds like consent.
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Marina14
Guest
It’s not! Read any one of the thousands of Orthodox Christians who have died a martyrs death at their hands - particularly during the Ottoman-Turk Empire.
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jerry_h_1700
Guest
I guess I have to be the one to show numbers here.
The total amount of terrorist attacks between 1982 and 2007 was 10,437. Now many of these terrorist attacks were not Muslim related, and many of them were committed by the same individual multiple times, however lets assume an extreme position and let’s assume each was committed by a Muslim and assume that each one was committed by one Muslim person. There are 1,800,000,000 Muslims in the world. This means that around 1 out of 180,000 Muslims committed terrorism (And that number as I mentioned is even higher than it should be) So if Islam in general really was preaching violence, shouldn’t we see way more attacks than this?
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam
jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Terrorism/tergraph.html
The total amount of terrorist attacks between 1982 and 2007 was 10,437. Now many of these terrorist attacks were not Muslim related, and many of them were committed by the same individual multiple times, however lets assume an extreme position and let’s assume each was committed by a Muslim and assume that each one was committed by one Muslim person. There are 1,800,000,000 Muslims in the world. This means that around 1 out of 180,000 Muslims committed terrorism (And that number as I mentioned is even higher than it should be) So if Islam in general really was preaching violence, shouldn’t we see way more attacks than this?
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam
jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Terrorism/tergraph.html
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AgnosTheist
Guest
^ its not just about terrorism, but how muslim countries are ruled with cruel religious policies. like when 15 girls were prevented by religious police from escaping a burning building simply because its unislamic to go out without a head cover (their covers got burned). that happens only in Islam. 
yes! islam is peace! rest in peace!
yes! islam is peace! rest in peace!
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jerry_h_1700
Guest
Jews in Spain were in the 1400’s forced to leave and were burned at the stake by Catholic monarchs. But I am not gonna then blame this on the Catholic church or the Pope because I know those monarchs hijacked religion for their own devious purposes.^ its not just about terrorism, but how muslim countries are ruled with cruel religious policies. like when 15 girls were prevented by religious police from escaping a burning building simply because its unislamic to go out without a head cover (their covers got burned). that happens only in Islam.
yes! islam is peace! rest in peace!
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dparker
Guest
Hmm…I see you have to go back 600 years to try to establish moral equivalency. That’s rather sad. The problem with Islam is NOW and is widespread throughout the Muslim world.
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jerry_h_1700
Guest
Find me numbers on how many Muslim men worldwide actually beat their wives versus the sermon by this one cleric and then we can see a more accurate number.
P.S. Try going out and actually get to know real Muslims here in the US instead of playing Halo in your mom’s basement
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dparker
Guest
Fact: The Qu’ran instructs husbands to beat their wives.Find me numbers on how many Muslim men worldwide actually beat their wives versus the sermon by this one cleric and then we can see a more accurate number.
P.S. Try going out and actually get to know real Muslims here in the US instead of playing Halo in your mom’s basement
Fact: Muslim countries are uniformly backward and restrictive.
Fact: Islam’s treatment of women is tragic and totalitarian.
Fact: Islam is a brutal medieval religion sorely in need of reformation.
Fact: Muslims in the US do not represent worldwide Muslim norms.
Fact: I have never played Halo.
Fact: I am in my 50s with five kids and 2 grandkids.
Fact: My mother doesn’t have a basement.
Fact: Those who don’t share your moral equivalency are not necessarily game playing children.
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jerry_h_1700
Guest
My bad, I had you mixed up with someone else
Can you cite a section of the Koran where this is made?
How so? In what way?
Women’s suffrage groups in the early 1900’s would have said the exact same thing of Christian USA
Where have I heard this before? Oh yeah, radical fundamentalists and atheists also say this of the Catholic church. Nice to see you are playing by our enemies book.
You may as well that no particular region can represent world norms in any group
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dparker
Guest
Sure…here are just a few lovely quotes from the Qur’an and Hadith regarding their precious womenfolk:
Tabari IX:113 “Allah permits you to shut them in separate rooms and to beat them, but not severely. If they abstain, they have the right to food and clothing. Treat women well for they are like domestic animals and they possess nothing themselves. Allah has made the enjoyment of their bodies lawful in his Qur’an.”
Qur’an 4:15 “If any of your women are guilty of lewdness, take the evidence of four witnesses from amongst you against them; if they testify, confine them to houses until death [by starvation] claims them.”
Qur’an 4:11 “Allah directs you in regard of your Children’s (inheritance): to the male, a portion equal to that of two females… These are settled portions ordained by Allah.”
Muslim:B1N142 “‘O womenfolk, you should ask for forgiveness for I saw you in bulk amongst the dwellers of Hell.’ A wise lady said: Why is it, Allah’s Apostle, that women comprise the bulk of the inhabitants of Hell? The Prophet observed: ‘You curse too much and are ungrateful to your spouses. You lack common sense, fail in religion and rob the wisdom of the wise.’ Upon this the woman remarked: What is wrong with our common sense? The Prophet replied, ‘Your lack of common sense can be determined from the fact that the evidence of two women is equal to one man. That is a proof.’”
Bukhari:V3B48N826 “The Prophet said, ‘Isn’t the witness of a woman equal to half of that of a man?’ The women said, ‘Yes.’ He said, ‘This is because of the deficiency of a woman’s mind.’”
Qur’an 24:34 “Force not your slave-girls to whoredom (prostitution) if they desire chastity, that you may seek enjoyment of this life. But if anyone forces them, then after such compulsion, Allah is oft-forgiving.”
Ishaq:496 “Ask the slave girl; she will tell you the truth.’ So the Apostle called Burayra to ask her. Ali got up and gave her a violent beating first, saying, ‘Tell the Apostle the truth.’”
Qur’an 24:6 “And for those who launch a charge against their wives, accusing them, but have no witnesses or evidence, except themselves; let the testimony of one of them be four testimonies, (swearing four times) by Allah that he is the one speaking the truth.”
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jerry_h_1700
Guest
First off please limit it to the Koran, Tabari for example is not considered orthodox writings to many Muslims, and one could just as easily cherry-pick bible quotes as well to make the Bible look sexist:
1 Corinthians 11:3 *
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3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman [is] the man; and the head of Christ [is] God.
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7 For a man indeed ought not to cover [his] head, forasmuch as he is the image and glory of God: but the woman is the glory of the man.
8 For the man is not of the woman; but the woman of the man.
9 Neither was the man created for the woman; but the woman for the man.
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34. Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but [they are commanded] to be under obedience, as also saith the law.
35 And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.
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22 Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord.
23 For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.
24 Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so [let] the wives [be] to their own husbands in every thing.
25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;
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9. In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with broided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array;
10 But (which becometh women professing godliness) with good works.
11 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.
12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve.
14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.
15 Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.
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26 And I find more bitter than death the woman, whose heart [is] snares and nets, [and] her hands [as] bands: whoso pleaseth God shall escape from her; but the sinner shall be taken by her.Plus many old Christian writings have blamed women for bringing evil into this world, so instead of quoting this or that Koran or Bible, let’s instead focus on more objective grounds by finding info on actual real world abuse versus whatever a book commands.
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exoflare
Guest
So… can you actually defend those passages of the Quran that were just cited, or was Tu Quoque your last resort?
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