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Valke2
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The tolerance of other religions in Libya is a very debateable thing as well. Which is a shame, since it had hosted one of the oldest Jewish communities in the world (300BC to about 1950.)
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Rodrigo_Bivar
Guest
The Hindus in Indonesia used to be all over the place - check out the Majapahit empire before you write another word.
Check out the fall of the Hindu Majapahit empire at the hands of the Muslim Sultan of Demak. Check out how the Hindus were forced to flee from the Muslims to the Island of Java.
The history of the Majapahit empire is well-known. I’m surprised you don’t know it.
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Rodrigo_Bivar
Guest
Edit: the Hindus were forced to flee Java and other parts of Indonesia to the Island of Bali by the Muslims.
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Valke2
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I agree to a point. And you did point out that Saudi is an extreme example. And I am looking at this from the point of view of an American citizen. I’m sure many have a lot of valid criticisms of the United States. But when it comes to freedom of religion, I think we are pretty much the “gold standard” there.
In general, however, muslim dominated countries are less tolerant of religious diversity than most western countries. WHile it is true that you will find other religious communities in Syria, Iran, Iraq, Turkey, etc., they do not enjoy the same degree of freedom and secuirty as they do in the U.S. and other nations.
Of course, they may enjoy greater freedom then they would in China and other non-muslim countries.
One last thought. There was some unprovked violence against muslims inthe U.S. after 9/11. However, for the most part, muslim communities in the U.S. continued and continue to thrive and enjoy all the rights and liberties as anyone else here. I find it hard to believe that if 14 christian extremists from America flew airplanes into tripoli or damascus, that the christian populations in those nations would not suffer.
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ralphinal
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Abe,
One hang up that we have in the west is that once a government endorses a form of a faith as the state religion, it is teh state religion. You can argue that they do not represent it, but to us, they ahve the backing of the government and must be considered as representative. I have yet to see a Muslim nation that practices the religious law allow freedom of religion. The Saudis, Lybians, Sudanese, etc. all persicute other faiths. You can point out nations that allow freedom of worship, but some of the other nations ACTUALLY KILL Christians and animists who worship. To many faiths, the building of a place of worship is important (don’t you build Mosques?) and a sign of freedom of worship. Freedom of assembly is important as well.
Want me to believe that Islam is peaceful? Let the peaceful Muslims overthrow the violent governments that corrupt this true faith and set up peaceful democracies where everyone can practice whatever faith they want, or none at all. Where women can vote and drive and own property. Do this and we will see.
One hang up that we have in the west is that once a government endorses a form of a faith as the state religion, it is teh state religion. You can argue that they do not represent it, but to us, they ahve the backing of the government and must be considered as representative. I have yet to see a Muslim nation that practices the religious law allow freedom of religion. The Saudis, Lybians, Sudanese, etc. all persicute other faiths. You can point out nations that allow freedom of worship, but some of the other nations ACTUALLY KILL Christians and animists who worship. To many faiths, the building of a place of worship is important (don’t you build Mosques?) and a sign of freedom of worship. Freedom of assembly is important as well.
Want me to believe that Islam is peaceful? Let the peaceful Muslims overthrow the violent governments that corrupt this true faith and set up peaceful democracies where everyone can practice whatever faith they want, or none at all. Where women can vote and drive and own property. Do this and we will see.
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AbeOman
Guest
Great, I do like and respect your sense of logic so in response, let me say two two things.
1- I know lot about America and Americans, went school there, worked in Manhattan for a year, traveled extensively from Galveston, TX, to Brighton, Maine, and from New York to LA. So my question is how much do you know about us…Muslims for a fact…? Do you think Omar Al Basheer of Sudan is God fearing Muslim or Muamar Al Ghadafi of Libya is good muslim leader…?
Lockerbie…? was just a whitewash or a real disaster…?
Check out who is Ghadafis closest ally today…? and you will see they are not the Muslims or the vetican or Christians or his own people big and powerful few who have lots of interests in keeping up, alive and the chair. till such time his folks get to him and they will eventually.
For instance, in America today, can we have a Friday off equal to Sat and Sun by law and at the federal level. the answer is NO…
can as Muslim by law built any sort a Mosque as grand as the National Cathedral with all the trimmings in D.C, or elsewere by the virtues of the D.C Zone laws or any other state laws, it’s not allowed. yes we can built what fashionalbly is kown as an Islamic Community Center but not a real Masjid “Mosque” unless you have seen a real one that I have not. Can we use external speakers for Adhan…(Call to Prayers) just like the churches use load bells…? Nop we can NOT, just check out and ask any Muslims or go and visit the local Islamic community center near you.
By law can any Muslim marry 2 wives, the answer is big NOP. and I could go on till cows come home so you see my friend there is nothing call government backing up freedom of religion, there is always limitations. even woman can not wear head-scarfs in some places…!
the second point is that, America is a secular state…(No religion State) though since Bush things have changed just little, but there are so many things in the constitution that does not guarantee rights of religion, yes you have the right to worship but the two are not the same, at individual level one does have certain rights but at Federal or State level…it’s not allowed, school prayers is an example in point.
furthermore, I agree with you we have nasty despots running some so called Muslim countries but who is really backing them up and keeping them in power…just check out what John Negroponte was doing and has done in Islamabad keeping Musharaf in the chair while thousands of Pakistanis are lead to prisons and some badly beaten up, get close look and you will get big part of the picture…?
Do I have to say more…?
Thanks and God bless.
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ralphinal
Guest
Abe, I am with you on some of this, but there are some things that I must point out. The main reason that bigamy is not allowed in America has nothing to do with Islam. To an extent it has to do with Mormanism, but primarily it is to protect women and childern with inheritance laws. Bigamy was not part of the culture that the founders of the United States came from.
I do see the restrictions placed upon Islam in America. There are several reasons that this is the case. But, at no point do we condone death for publicly practicing Islam. This is the case in some countries with non-Muslims. How about legalized slavery? That is another issue.
I do agree that you have some real doozies held up as representatives of your faith. Ghadafi is almost not even worth the time to talk about him. I have studied a great deal of history, although not as much as some of the posters on here. I know of teh effects of colonialism on Africa and Asia. I am having trouble wrapping my head around the fall of Islamic Culture since 1500. At one time, the great science and math people were in Muslim lands. Education seemd to be vastly more important then. Jewish communities thrived. When was there a change? Is it linked to the rise of Islamic Fundamentalism?
By the way, I do not judge the goodness of my governent by its allies. We ahve a history of dealing with the devil if a dollar is to be made. I wish we could quit that attitude, as well as the mentality that the enemy of our enemy is our friend. That is what got us into bed with Bin Ladin in the first place (as well as Sadam Hussian).
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AbeOman
Guest
Excellent points…this is better then “my God is better then yours” stuff…I mean, I’m starting to enjoy myself again after a long and futile discussions with one of our friends.
Now going back to the topic, I agree with you on 3 points,
1- America is ruled by the virtues of the constitution and not by the Bible nor Torah or the Quran, that makes it a secular state, though what I have seen of late does tell a different attitudes.
So, on these bases, an individual’s rights are more or less protected under the constitution.
2- You are right in your assessment that there is less religious tolerance in certain Muslim countries and mainly in the conservative ones, like Iran and Saudi Arabia, while Turkey is on the other extremely, Syria has it’s plus points and down to zero ones, for instance, Syria is home to the oldest known early Christians who still speak Aramaic as Lord Jesus(PBUH) did 2007 years ago, but then look how they treat Jews during the wars or even other Muslim sects who are minorities and who is in power…in Damuscus? The majority Sunni or small yet powerful Alawy sect…?
3- None of the so called Muslim countries are actually using Islam as it’s source of constitution, what we have so many different and at time and at best contradictory laws, some apply part of the Sharai for certain things, etc.
So how could they be Islamic state when they are not, well it’s simple when you are not elected to an office as islam dictates, when you have hold on every aspect of the peoples lives and when you can control basically everything, then believe me you devise your own rules and regulations and none will ever close to those of God in Islam or otherwise.
Finally, the point, I would like to disagree with you is that of the tendency that all Muslim countries re alike and the assumption they are run in accordance with Islamic laws and hence what is wrong with them is their Islamic laws when on the contrary hardly any Muslim country is actually run by the book, even the once who are not conservative and least Islamic like Turkey, Jordan, Egypt, Tunisia and Marrocco.
In addition, one has to realize a common fact, when the Islamic world was under a Islamic rule, things where different, Islam was powerful, none Muslims had their rights protected and the society as whole was prosperous and at peace, case in a point, where did the Jews find refuge when they were stamped out from Europe, they found home in Granada, Andalusia, Baghdad when it was center of global learning…so on and so forth.
I only hope I have made some sense,
thanks again for the great points.
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ralphinal
Guest
Abe, that last post helped me.
America is only a secular nation because the Founding Fathers did not want one group any more powerful than another. Look at the history of America and Christianity has ben used to justify a bunch of bad things.
I should have pointed out that when I say Muslim Countries, I mean those where the government and the faith are intertwined, like Iran and Saudi Arabia. Egypt, Jordan, and Turkey are good examples of how the two can co-exist.
I am glad that you pointed out that some nations using the Sharai for certain things. That is not the way it is portrayed here.
America is only a secular nation because the Founding Fathers did not want one group any more powerful than another. Look at the history of America and Christianity has ben used to justify a bunch of bad things.
I should have pointed out that when I say Muslim Countries, I mean those where the government and the faith are intertwined, like Iran and Saudi Arabia. Egypt, Jordan, and Turkey are good examples of how the two can co-exist.
I am glad that you pointed out that some nations using the Sharai for certain things. That is not the way it is portrayed here.
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AbeOman
Guest
This is very true and it does apply to Muslim countries to, when the interest of the mainly becomes the subservient of the few, then the big problems become on the surface.Abe, I am with you on some of this, but there are some things that I must point out. The main reason that bigamy is not allowed in America has nothing to do with Islam. To an extent it has to do with Mormanism, but primarily it is to protect women and childern with inheritance laws. Bigamy was not part of the culture that the founders of the United States came from.
If the Mormons or Muslims want have more than one wife let them, I know this was not originally against Muslims but it’s federal crime hence against one means against others…the rule applies to all.
BIG SNIP…though i enjoyed your post entirely but getta make a space for mine, call me selfish…
How about legalized slavery? That is another issue. Auch you get me here…? please explain, I thought Islam dealt with that around 1400 yrs ago…! unless you mean, modern white slavery, folks not having their rights protected or getting required laws for fairer or just labor laws. is that what you refer to…?
A whoply snip again…
When was there a change? Is it linked to the rise of Islamic Fundamentalism?
No, we had fundemantalism from day one but what happen is that we misplaced with God’s rule to man’s rule, every man for his little country and his little empire…this continued till or towards the end of Othoman Empire in the early 19 century, in others I strongly believe the decline started when Islam is replaced by nationalism or nationism…
By the way, I do not judge the goodness of my government by its allies. We have a history of dealing with the devil if a dollar is to be made. I wish we could quit that attitude, as well as the mentality that the enemy of our enemy is our friend. That is what got us into bed with Bin Ladin in the first place (as well as Sadam Hussian).
Look at Pakistan today…a nuclear state that has the ballistic capability that can reach almost Italy if not beyond and as far as south china sea…that is a real scary situation.
Hey thanks again and keep talking if time allows, alter and God bless…
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ralphinal
Guest
Abe,
Snip away to make it fit, its all good. The Slavery issue has come up over about the last 12 or so years. THe UN and US State Department has presented proof that some Muslims are selling non-Muslims into slavery. I will find the links and post them when I can. This is a more divisive issue to me than terrorism. Sooner or later, terrorists strike anyone who is not on their side, regardless of faith. Everyone will work on one side of the other on it. Slavery though, tends only to be an issue to the enslaved, the owners, and those affected by it.
Snip away to make it fit, its all good. The Slavery issue has come up over about the last 12 or so years. THe UN and US State Department has presented proof that some Muslims are selling non-Muslims into slavery. I will find the links and post them when I can. This is a more divisive issue to me than terrorism. Sooner or later, terrorists strike anyone who is not on their side, regardless of faith. Everyone will work on one side of the other on it. Slavery though, tends only to be an issue to the enslaved, the owners, and those affected by it.
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AbeOman
Guest
Please, this very serious so take it upon yourself to find out more and let me kow, I will dig more also, specially on UN sites or perhaps just walk in at the local UNICEF or UNISCO offices, we only have these two in Muscat.
If this is true, how come I have not seen some alarm bells going around in the Friday prayers, I pray to God it is not so but never the less let’s get to the bottom of it.
I just had this thought and I would like to sahre with you, I hope you don’t mind, it’s not really that great but just a thught that come across my mind,
You know I read stories of thieves hand been chopped off and also heard a Saudi prince who steals millions and never his hand get chopped off. you will hear plenty of some low life petty thieve getting theirs ripped off …(I’m just using that as an analogy) but there has been cases where this actually happen…and so was it in the Sharia or some fools rules.
Different strokes for different folks, just like in the of A if you one is super rich he can get away with murder or with anything or least the president will pardon you before he leaves office…!
We are living in a crazy times and with certainly No God rules…man marrying man and women leaving her home and kids for another woman and someone blows himself up to kill and mime lots innocent folks who has never done him no wrong…!
We argue…about God, is he big, small, 3 or one, does he exist, is near or far …blah blah and so on and so and but we don’t do what we suppose to do, we talk to each other about God as if he is one of our friends and none of us remembers sooner or later we will put in a hall six food under and none of these is going to help, none will make a any difference but all that Godly deeds, good and great acts that he has told us to do while roaming on this earth. will surely help.
I wonder, if ever God in the Bible, Torah or Quran told us to commit sin out of pleasure or selfishness, but in our own deficiencies we will make it as if the God Muslims tell them to be voilant or the God of the Jews tell them to be bad or if the God of Catholics or that of the protestant instruct them to be sinners or saints…? as if he said tell the others that I your God…I’m better then theirs…!
Who is God anyway…? our own or God as his own…?
Peace and may the blessings of our creator whoever he is be upon you all.
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thedavidwilson
Guest
Unlike Catholicism, Islam preaches and condones this. As well as killing apostates and opressing non-muslims.
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dparker
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thedavidwilson
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She also got 6 months in prison.
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ralphinal
Guest
I thing I know what you are getting at. If it can be said that God did anything wrong (He didn’t), it would be entrusting humans with following His Word. Men twist it, ignore it, shift it, misuse it, or whatever. It is part of having free will. No denying that at all. Some slavery posts to follow. One reason that I think you do not hear much about slavery is not because people are turning a blind eye to it as much as it does not concern them.
You are 100% right about there being two justice systems in America, and most of the world. The perversion of this life says that the Golden Rule is “He who has the gold, rules.”
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ralphinal
Guest
I tried to weed out websites that were obviously biased or had an agenda. Likewise, those without any sources were out.
humanevents.com/article.php?id=20586
amren.com/mtnews/archives/2007/07/the_persistence.php
religioustolerance.org/sla_world.htm
Recently, a former slave from the Nuba Mountains of Sudan, Mende Nazer, had her autobiography: “Slave: My True Story” published. Mende was captured in 1992, she was first a slave to a rich Arab family in Khartoum, and then in 2002 to a Sudanese diplomat in London, from whom she escaped and saught political asylum.
I think that it is easy to see that this is not hugely widespread, but it seems to be openly practiced in some countries.
I have found TONS of proof that it is banned by most of the governments, but there are a few clerics and sheiks that speak in favor of it.
nytimes.com/books/01/03/04/reviews/010304.04hochsct.html
Seems like Sudan and Mauritania are the big ones. Sudan seems to pop up in all Human Rights Issues. Any ideas why?
humanevents.com/article.php?id=20586
amren.com/mtnews/archives/2007/07/the_persistence.php
religioustolerance.org/sla_world.htm
Recently, a former slave from the Nuba Mountains of Sudan, Mende Nazer, had her autobiography: “Slave: My True Story” published. Mende was captured in 1992, she was first a slave to a rich Arab family in Khartoum, and then in 2002 to a Sudanese diplomat in London, from whom she escaped and saught political asylum.
I think that it is easy to see that this is not hugely widespread, but it seems to be openly practiced in some countries.
I have found TONS of proof that it is banned by most of the governments, but there are a few clerics and sheiks that speak in favor of it.
nytimes.com/books/01/03/04/reviews/010304.04hochsct.html
Seems like Sudan and Mauritania are the big ones. Sudan seems to pop up in all Human Rights Issues. Any ideas why?
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thedavidwilson
Guest
Is it because they are islamic countries?
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Valke2
Guest
This story makes me physically ill every time I hear it. The practical side of me says that despite such abuses, Saudi Arabia is too valuable an ally to the U.S. . The moral side of me weeps over the fact that we’ve chosen to accept such behavior as the status quo.
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ralphinal
Guest
I know. We do this all the time. Our ally would not be our ally if 1) they did not have something we need or 2) we didn’t hate someone more.
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