Tis_Bearself
Patron
shrug You asked how I felt, I told you.
What do you expect Catholics to say?
Have a nice day.
What do you expect Catholics to say?
Have a nice day.
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CapitalistCatholic
Guest
I feel like she just came to this forum for confrontation. I’m going to give her the benefit of the doubt, and say that she actually wanted a debate, but found that her skewed view of Catholicism was in error. 
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meltzerboy2
Guest
You are entitled to believe in any god or gods you wish, or no god. Judaism believes that we are judged by our behavior toward others (humans and animals), not by our particular faith or lack of faith.
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CapitalistCatholic
Guest
Really? Looks like I’m safe just in case then :crazy_face:
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AtypicalAntipsychotk
Guest
I revere Miyolangsangma and Cernunnos. Imma let you look up Miyolangsangma (hint: she’s connected to Chomolungma, her two-sided throne.) I’m Wiccan.
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AtypicalAntipsychotk
Guest
Just to put some perspective here, but with the utmost respect, “honour thy father and mother” as its limitations. I was abused, suffer from abandonment issues and basically taught myself how to be an adult. I was never good enough for them. They were never there for me when I needed them the most. Then I had a God (methodist) telling me what to do.
I don’t want any paternalistic god, either. I want a god and goddess i can talk to on an equal level. I’m tired of being judged and feeling unlovable.
I don’t want any paternalistic god, either. I want a god and goddess i can talk to on an equal level. I’m tired of being judged and feeling unlovable.
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JMMJ
Guest
Paganism doesn’t bother me. I applaud you for seeking out a way to experience your spirituality that works for you.
No. I don’t believe you are destined to the Catholic concept of hell when you die.
No. I don’t believe you are destined to the Catholic concept of hell when you die.
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Padres1969
Guest
Seconded. All the best on your spiritual journey.
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Zach
Guest
I feel about pagans the same way I feel about all non-Catholics. I feel they are missing out on the fullest religious truth there is. Being a Catholic why would I think any differently? If I did not feel this way there would not be any point in me being a Catholic.Not believing this would be wishy-washy. I pray for all that they come to the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church. Does this mean I think they will burn in Hell? Of course not that is between each Individual soul and God. But it does mean I believe the best way to ensure salvation is through the Catholic Church.
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Salibi
Guest
Don’t really mind that you’re a pagan. I don’t hate anybody on the basis of what they believe.
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ante83
Guest
I spent 20 something years as a “pagan”, before being confronted by the living God.
What I feel about you? I feel sad.
At risk of sounding condescending, but I feel that when you grow older, and if you keep an open mind and heart searching for truth, I have confidence that you will, like me, find your way on a road that leads to Rome.
P.S. The concept of salvation outside the Church is not difficult to find articles upon, so I am thinking you are looking for a confrontation here.
What I feel about you? I feel sad.
At risk of sounding condescending, but I feel that when you grow older, and if you keep an open mind and heart searching for truth, I have confidence that you will, like me, find your way on a road that leads to Rome.
P.S. The concept of salvation outside the Church is not difficult to find articles upon, so I am thinking you are looking for a confrontation here.
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Bonaventurian
Guest
That’s terrible, I’m sorry to hear that. But I didn’t specify YOUR father and mother, but that the relationship is like that of a parent to his children.
That libertine mindset is the thing that is going to destroy you in the end because we do not simply get to choose our God much like we cannot choose our parents. The difference between your situation and what I am talking about is that God is trying to direct you to the ultimate Good.
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catholicray
Guest
1 Corinthians 5:9-13 RSVCE
I wrote to you in my letter not to associate with immoral men; not at all meaning the immoral of this world, or the greedy and robbers, or idolaters, since then you would need to go out of the world. But rather I wrote to you not to associate with any one who bears the name of brother if he is guilty of immorality or greed, or is an idolater, reviler, drunkard, or robber—not even to eat with such a one. For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Is it not those inside the church whom you are to judge? God judges those outside. “Drive out the wicked person from among you.”
I share this to say that culpability is a big factor in the final judgement. If you do not know the truth as I do as a witness of the God of Israel then you do not share in my bondage to Christ the same way I do. That is to say I have learned to discern between judging actions and judging the person. If I a lowly sinner can make this discernment then God who is mercy does so to perfection. You are loved. You have your own unique walk in this life. Do not squander your life. Furthermore do not waste your time being that which you are not. It can lead to all kinds of resentment. For you all I have to offer is prayer that you are brought by the Lord (not by me) into His loving embrace. That you can spend many beautiful days in fellowship with His flock. But that is done by Him. We as Catholics love and care about you right where you are. You may find it to be otherwise because Love is bound in Justice and sometimes you may experience the discipline of our Father which can seem cruel to our flesh. But our Father disciplines those that He loves. I’m rambling now but I hope you know you are valued as you are where you are. That’s ultimately the position of our family and our Catholic Faith. The final judgement is in the hands of God alone. It is between Him and your heart.
I wrote to you in my letter not to associate with immoral men; not at all meaning the immoral of this world, or the greedy and robbers, or idolaters, since then you would need to go out of the world. But rather I wrote to you not to associate with any one who bears the name of brother if he is guilty of immorality or greed, or is an idolater, reviler, drunkard, or robber—not even to eat with such a one. For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Is it not those inside the church whom you are to judge? God judges those outside. “Drive out the wicked person from among you.”
I share this to say that culpability is a big factor in the final judgement. If you do not know the truth as I do as a witness of the God of Israel then you do not share in my bondage to Christ the same way I do. That is to say I have learned to discern between judging actions and judging the person. If I a lowly sinner can make this discernment then God who is mercy does so to perfection. You are loved. You have your own unique walk in this life. Do not squander your life. Furthermore do not waste your time being that which you are not. It can lead to all kinds of resentment. For you all I have to offer is prayer that you are brought by the Lord (not by me) into His loving embrace. That you can spend many beautiful days in fellowship with His flock. But that is done by Him. We as Catholics love and care about you right where you are. You may find it to be otherwise because Love is bound in Justice and sometimes you may experience the discipline of our Father which can seem cruel to our flesh. But our Father disciplines those that He loves. I’m rambling now but I hope you know you are valued as you are where you are. That’s ultimately the position of our family and our Catholic Faith. The final judgement is in the hands of God alone. It is between Him and your heart.
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Dan_Defender
Guest
Before Christ entered human history, the whole of Europe was pagan. People gradually converted, as they saw Christianity as the truth. Christianity became the pillar of western civilization. So why would anyone go back to paganism, is beyond me. I respect your choice, but do not think highly of it.
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Major
Guest
This already happened.
Technically speaking probably majority of the western population is effectively pagan. Only their gods do not have fancy names and nice sacred groves, usually they ale called money, carier, science etc… if you think about it you can see that they have in general similar characteristics. Type that AlpinePagan represents is only easier to spot and - in my opinion - more honest.
Technically speaking probably majority of the western population is effectively pagan. Only their gods do not have fancy names and nice sacred groves, usually they ale called money, carier, science etc… if you think about it you can see that they have in general similar characteristics. Type that AlpinePagan represents is only easier to spot and - in my opinion - more honest.
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StillWandering
Guest
Part 1
Alpine Druid, as a Celt myself, from an area that speaks a Celtic language, I applaud your move to reconnect with your ancient heritage. Also, as someone who has deep affinity to nature and the natural environment, I understand and sympathise with your own affinity to the natural world.
However, I am confused by your statement that you “practice druidry”.
I’ve studied, in detail, Celtic polytheism, both in its insular and continental forms. My thesis was on the subject of survivals of “Celtic Paganism” in folklore and popular religion in Europe and Britain and Ireland. I grew up with the sagas, the folklore, the myths of the Celts in the most authentic way a person could encounter them; sitting by a turf fire listening to my grandmother recount the tales in the original language, as part of an unbroken oral tradition. I’ve taken part in genuine survivals of Celtic religion that were transferred into Catholicism during the conversion period. I’ve read virtually all the academic texts there are about Celtic paganism, and I’ve studied the primary sources regarding the subject. In short, there are few people with as in depth a knowledge of Pre Christian religion of the Celtic peoples, as me.
What do we know of the beliefs of the pagan Celts? Virtually nothing. Due to the druids suspicion of writing and commitment to oral transmission, there are no religious texts relating to Celtic paganism. Any description of their beliefs must be drawn from (a) Classical writers, who vaguely describe doctrine and practice, mostly based around blood sacrifice and transmission to the “Otherworld” through water, (b) folkloric references from medieval Ireland and Wales written by Christian scribes which do not describe in any detail the beliefs and practices of the pagans, (c) genuine folkloric survivals in popular religion and mythology, which once again, are scanty and framed within a Christian understanding of religion. In short, what we have are peculiar practices and traditions, which have no correlation in Christianity, and thus we conjecture that they must be pagan, and we then speculate on what these things meant within a culture and context which is absolutely alien to our own modern reality.
Being generous, and I mean really generous, we know the names of some of the gods & goddesses, we know that they lived lives that basically correlated with contemporary ordinary people ie. they drank, had sex, fought and feasted. We know some aspects of Celtic ritual through survivals in Christianity (circumambulation at holy wells) and archeological evidence (mostly sacrifice of animals through burial, usually under houses or in tombs, and human sacrifice, most notably the threefold death where the sacrificial person (usually a king) was bludgeoned on the head (1. wounding), hung with a rope (2. strangulation) and finally pushed into a pool of water, as a gateway into the Otherworld (3. drowning).
Alpine Druid, as a Celt myself, from an area that speaks a Celtic language, I applaud your move to reconnect with your ancient heritage. Also, as someone who has deep affinity to nature and the natural environment, I understand and sympathise with your own affinity to the natural world.
However, I am confused by your statement that you “practice druidry”.
I’ve studied, in detail, Celtic polytheism, both in its insular and continental forms. My thesis was on the subject of survivals of “Celtic Paganism” in folklore and popular religion in Europe and Britain and Ireland. I grew up with the sagas, the folklore, the myths of the Celts in the most authentic way a person could encounter them; sitting by a turf fire listening to my grandmother recount the tales in the original language, as part of an unbroken oral tradition. I’ve taken part in genuine survivals of Celtic religion that were transferred into Catholicism during the conversion period. I’ve read virtually all the academic texts there are about Celtic paganism, and I’ve studied the primary sources regarding the subject. In short, there are few people with as in depth a knowledge of Pre Christian religion of the Celtic peoples, as me.
What do we know of the beliefs of the pagan Celts? Virtually nothing. Due to the druids suspicion of writing and commitment to oral transmission, there are no religious texts relating to Celtic paganism. Any description of their beliefs must be drawn from (a) Classical writers, who vaguely describe doctrine and practice, mostly based around blood sacrifice and transmission to the “Otherworld” through water, (b) folkloric references from medieval Ireland and Wales written by Christian scribes which do not describe in any detail the beliefs and practices of the pagans, (c) genuine folkloric survivals in popular religion and mythology, which once again, are scanty and framed within a Christian understanding of religion. In short, what we have are peculiar practices and traditions, which have no correlation in Christianity, and thus we conjecture that they must be pagan, and we then speculate on what these things meant within a culture and context which is absolutely alien to our own modern reality.
Being generous, and I mean really generous, we know the names of some of the gods & goddesses, we know that they lived lives that basically correlated with contemporary ordinary people ie. they drank, had sex, fought and feasted. We know some aspects of Celtic ritual through survivals in Christianity (circumambulation at holy wells) and archeological evidence (mostly sacrifice of animals through burial, usually under houses or in tombs, and human sacrifice, most notably the threefold death where the sacrificial person (usually a king) was bludgeoned on the head (1. wounding), hung with a rope (2. strangulation) and finally pushed into a pool of water, as a gateway into the Otherworld (3. drowning).
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StillWandering
Guest
Part 2
We also know that they sacrificed goods and objects to the gods through water deposits. We know from literary accounts that the druids could read the future through the death spasms of the sacrifice, or through signs in the entrails of a sacrifice, and we know they believed that the soul resided in the head and would pass on to the Otherworld after death, they may have also believed in partial reincarnation.
Beyond the paragraph above, we know absolutely nothing of Celtic paganism. In the eighteenth century, a Welsh eccentric composed, for impressionable London friends, a description of Druidism. This is the root of modern druidry and as literally every single academic or person of even the most basic grasp of the historical evidence will tell you, this “druidry” bears no resemblance whatsoever to the historical practice of paganism amongst the Celtic peoples.
We also know that they sacrificed goods and objects to the gods through water deposits. We know from literary accounts that the druids could read the future through the death spasms of the sacrifice, or through signs in the entrails of a sacrifice, and we know they believed that the soul resided in the head and would pass on to the Otherworld after death, they may have also believed in partial reincarnation.
Beyond the paragraph above, we know absolutely nothing of Celtic paganism. In the eighteenth century, a Welsh eccentric composed, for impressionable London friends, a description of Druidism. This is the root of modern druidry and as literally every single academic or person of even the most basic grasp of the historical evidence will tell you, this “druidry” bears no resemblance whatsoever to the historical practice of paganism amongst the Celtic peoples.
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StillWandering
Guest
Part 3
I noted, with interest, your reference of two Celtic gods you venerate. “Danu (a river goddess, also the sun)” for example, we know absolutely nothing about her. We are not even sure if Danu was her actual name, being a reconstruction of a reference in a medieval Irish text to the “Tuatha Dé Danann” (the tribe of the deity Danann). We aren’t even sure if she is a she! Welsh mythology suggests Dôn, the Brythonic equivilent, was a male. We dont know her patronage, one scholar suggests that the name may form the basis of the river Danube but it is complete speculation. If that is the case, she may possibly be related to the Hindu goddess Danu, but once again, speculation. There is no Celtic reference to a connection with the sun, that being the traditional stronghold of Lug or Lugh. You also referenced Cernunnos as god of the hunt and moon. The name Cernunnos is attested only once, on a French dedication tablet, which bore an image of the “horned god”. We dont know if that was the name of the god depicted or if it was the name of the devotee, or if it referenced a tribe which controlled the shrine. We arent even sure what “Cernunnos” means, it may be related to the Gaulish word for horn (Karn, Irish Gaelic; Corn). We might be able to speculate that he is the god of the hunt through his depiction of being surrounded by animals but his depiction on the Pillar of the Boatmen probably links him more to commerce. Once again, there is no Celtic reference to him being associated with the moon, that is associated with Elatha.
I pointed all of this out not to disparrage your spirituality. I merely question the wisdom of associating with a religion which we know virtually nothing about, and what little we do know describes a violent and bloodthirsty cult. If you want to venerate nature and feel close to your roots then you can find that in Christianity, in fact you will probably be able to participate in genuine Celtic ritual if you go to Brittany, Ireland, Wales or Scotland, as a Christian than you ever could as a practioner of “Druidry”. If its a case that you have ideas about the spiritual world that you have asscribed the names of ancient gods, go for it! But please, dont call it druidry.
I noted, with interest, your reference of two Celtic gods you venerate. “Danu (a river goddess, also the sun)” for example, we know absolutely nothing about her. We are not even sure if Danu was her actual name, being a reconstruction of a reference in a medieval Irish text to the “Tuatha Dé Danann” (the tribe of the deity Danann). We aren’t even sure if she is a she! Welsh mythology suggests Dôn, the Brythonic equivilent, was a male. We dont know her patronage, one scholar suggests that the name may form the basis of the river Danube but it is complete speculation. If that is the case, she may possibly be related to the Hindu goddess Danu, but once again, speculation. There is no Celtic reference to a connection with the sun, that being the traditional stronghold of Lug or Lugh. You also referenced Cernunnos as god of the hunt and moon. The name Cernunnos is attested only once, on a French dedication tablet, which bore an image of the “horned god”. We dont know if that was the name of the god depicted or if it was the name of the devotee, or if it referenced a tribe which controlled the shrine. We arent even sure what “Cernunnos” means, it may be related to the Gaulish word for horn (Karn, Irish Gaelic; Corn). We might be able to speculate that he is the god of the hunt through his depiction of being surrounded by animals but his depiction on the Pillar of the Boatmen probably links him more to commerce. Once again, there is no Celtic reference to him being associated with the moon, that is associated with Elatha.
I pointed all of this out not to disparrage your spirituality. I merely question the wisdom of associating with a religion which we know virtually nothing about, and what little we do know describes a violent and bloodthirsty cult. If you want to venerate nature and feel close to your roots then you can find that in Christianity, in fact you will probably be able to participate in genuine Celtic ritual if you go to Brittany, Ireland, Wales or Scotland, as a Christian than you ever could as a practioner of “Druidry”. If its a case that you have ideas about the spiritual world that you have asscribed the names of ancient gods, go for it! But please, dont call it druidry.
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rosejmj
Guest
I do not judge you. I personally don’t understand how someone could worship many God’s, but I’m sure you have reasons why you believe in your gods. I understand how you could choose not to believe in Catholicism and I will not judge you for choosing not to. I think that as long as you follow your conscience and try to live a virtuous life and seek what is good and true then even according to Christian or Catholic beliefs you may be saved. I think it is unchristian to assume that someone is going to go to hell because they don’t believe what we believe. A non Catholic can be more virtuous than a Catholic. Just because you are a Catholic doesn’t mean you will be saved. Just because you aren’t a Catholic or Christian doesn’t mean you won’t be saved.
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Shakuhachi
Guest
What kind of flute? I play shakuhachi and more recently into Bansuri.
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