Tell me what you think of this chapter in the Book of Mormon

[SteveVH]

Your statement about “dark forces” also means that those “dark forces” will of course bring a feeling of “feeling sick” to someone when those dark forces know that the person is going to stop pursuing a truth once they feel “sick” inside. That is one of the ways they operate.

Your statement that God “clarified the issue” goes right back to “feeling sick”. So what I am saying to you is that God does not do that, as you noted. The Holy Spirit does not do that. That would be using the body as a tool of forcing behavior.

Your next paragraph does not sound like a very positive experience with God. God the Father does not dish out negative experiences to force behavior, nor does the Savior and Redeemer, nor does the Holy Spirit or Testator. The Savior doesn’t force a person back into His flock. He loves and beckons through the scriptures, but does not force nor “carry on His back” against the will of the person.

“The spiritual forces of evil” will indeed try to mimic whatever they think will make an impression on the mind and soul of someone. They are very adept at doing that. It is probably one of the things they do most actively and most cunningly.

Parker, I was just wondering if you have ever smelled a dead carcass of a large animal. It is immediately revolting and you instinctively go the other direction. God gave us the senses to be able to detect something putrid. He did not cause the odor. Death and decay caused the odor. He gave us the sense to recognize it. It is no different in the spiritual realm. Evil has a bad spiritual odor. God gave us the spiritual sense to recognize it. I realize that I am somewhat repeating myself but it doesn’t seem that you have caught on to what Anna and I are trying to tell you. Can you at least acknowledge the logic here? I am also aware that you probably will not respond to me. Maybe you can address your response to Anna.

 

[ParkerD]

Parker,

I had to repent for embracing a false gospel. I really didn’t expect you to understand. Just stating my experience.

Anna

Anna Scott,
If you were acting out of the sincerity of your heart, then there was nothing to repent of even if you decided you had embraced a “false gospel” and thus changed your mind.

This is such an important item to realize–God is not about forcing behavior, and desires instead sincere choices made with the best of intentions. It sounds like you did that–therefore, when you changed your mind you had nothing to “repent of”, and the feelings you had where you fell to the floor were not from God. It is as simple as that.

 

[LongJourney]

:nope: Oh–Parker Parker, what are we going to DO with you???

Do you know that invalidating the feelings of others has been earmarked as an LDS trait?

The BoM is a fiction, cobbled together from multiple sources in the 1820’s. I could say more, but I don’t want to hurt YOUR feelings.

Have you ever read Clavigero or Maccabees?

books.google.com/books?id=YWg6AAAAcAAJ&pg=PA47&dq=clavigero&hl=en&ei=hua4TLvbFcKcnAeo4NXjDQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=9&ved=0CE8Q6AEwCA#v=onepage&q=clavigero&f=false

books.google.com/books?id=RjDVAAAAMAAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=clavigero&hl=en&ei=hua4TLvbFcKcnAeo4NXjDQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CCgQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false

books.google.com/books?id=ZDzomfrnqrUC&pg=RA1-PA139&dq=king+james+I+Maccabees&hl=en&ei=TOe4TNHyGsXHnAeYvpDrDQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2&ved=0CDIQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q&f=false

 

[ParkerD]

Parker, I was just wondering if you have ever smelled a dead carcass of a large animal. It is immediately revolting and you instinctively go the other direction. God gave us the senses to be able to detect something putrid. He did not cause the odor. Death and decay caused the odor. He gave us the sense to recognize it. It is no different in the spiritual realm. Evil has a bad spiritual odor. God gave us the spiritual sense to recognize it. I realize that I am somewhat repeating myself but it doesn’t seem that you have caught on to what Anna and I are trying to tell you. Can you at least acknowledge the logic here? I am also aware that you probably will not respond to me. Maybe you can address your response to Anna.

SteveVH,
I was respecting that you had asked that I “lay off.” I have no problem responding to your comments, since evidently that is now what you would like me to do.

First, I have never been offended by you nor anyone on this forum. I don’t take offense in that way. I’m fine that people disagree with me in whatever way suits them.

If as you say “evil has a bad spiritual odor” then everyone should be always choosing good because no one likes a bad odor around them. This would be forcing behavior, regardless that you don’t think so.

The comment about children and drugs gives a similar situation. If God were interested in seeing to it that no one gets involved with drug use and God uses feelings of “illness” to bring people toward the choices He wants them to make, then He would cause an “illness” before a person moves toward taking drugs, and they would not do it. They would have reacted to the negative situation, and chosen against being ill and there would be a cause-and-effect relationship in that the idea of that choice leads to the “illness” and that leads to not choosing drug use.

Instead, the dark spirits do indeed tempt toward taking illicit drugs and there is no precursor of illness; instead there is a false “high” and perhaps manipulative “friends” and soon the person becomes addicted to that false “high”. To be warned is not the same thing as to have been made “ill” or even to have sensed some “bad spiritual odor”.

God warns through the scriptures and the words of the prophets, but does not warn through “illness” or through “bad spiritual odor” because those are elements of forced behavior. But the dark spirits certainly would want a person to think an ill feeling or “bad spiritual odor” is God talking to the person, because they can then mimic those qualities–which they are allowed to do by God since He is never about forced choices yet allows the dark spirits to have a place on the earth temporarily. So that is what they do when given the chance, and when given the attention by the person.

 

[LongJourney]

there is a false “high” and perhaps manipulative “friends” and soon the person becomes addicted to that false “high”. To be warned is not the same thing as to have been made “ill” or even to have sensed some “bad spiritual odor”.

What an excellent description of the addiction to positive social reinforcement that can occur in Mormonism!! It smells very bad. Emotional and spiritual manipulation at its most scary.

 

[ParkerD]

Parker,
Do you know that invalidating the feelings of others has been earmarked as an LDS trait?

LJ,
Do you know that Christ invalidated the feelings of the Pharisees, the Sadducees, the Publicans, the Sanhedrin, and the Jews who wanted more bread instead of the “hidden manna” He was offering them; and that Paul invalidated the feelings of all the people who he said were following false spirits?

The true gospel Christ offered is not about validating every feeling a person has.

 

[LongJourney]

No, they criticized those religious practices because of their bad RESULTS, and because they did not honor God. They did not invalidate feelings. There are times when we go through temptation that we must put aside FEELINGS, and turn away, because we intellectually know that there will be bad consequences. The BoM is similar. It can be very seductive to the vulnerable.

The true gospel Christ offered is not about validating every feeling a person has.

Exactly. But the LDS faith is based on feeling divorced from intellect. Therefore, those of us who report our feelings, linked with intellect, that we experience in reading that incredible mish-mash, are told by LDS that our feelings don’t matter. :nope: It does not compute.

Non-Mormons are human beings, and we DO have feelings, family commitment, a desire to earn a living, and beliefs and desires, EVERYTHING that goes with being human. :

 

[ParkerD]

What an excellent description of the addiction to positive social reinforcement that occurs in Mormonism!! “It smells very bad.” Emotional and spiritual manipulation at its most scary.

LJ,
The descriptions of Zion in the Old Testament depict a situation where the “children shall be taught of the Lord, and great shall be the peace of thy children”. If that picture doesn’t look like a picture where there is “positive social reinforcement” since the children are in a situation where there is peace around them, then I guess you have a different view of what “Zion” would be comprised of than I do.

There is nothing wrong with a group saying, “we have a good situation–let’s work to make it even better”–so long as no one feels “forced” into choosing to do that.

Not that I care about your choice of words above since you are free to choose, but you might at least try and let the Bible be your guide rather than dark spirits bringing darkness and fear and gloom and doom into the word picture you paint.

 

[LongJourney]

I agree. I had better back off right now. My own memories are haunting me.

 

[PaulDupre]

Oh my, this sounds just like the argument of atheists that talk about “bigoted” statements in the Bible, among other things. Very interesting argument you have there (your “plagiarisms from the Bible won’t be allowed” statement also shows that you know that your “exercise” also applies to the Bible).

Note that the Mormon’s first instinct when defending the Book of Mormon is to attack the bible. The Mormons, in their heart of hearts, hate the bible. Here’s why: Those who study the bible, love the bible, live by the bible, don’t need Mormonism to get their answers.

Paul (a former Mormon, now happily Catholic)

 

[Caprica]

Note that the Mormon’s first instinct when defending the Book of Mormon is to attack the bible. The Mormons, in their heart of hearts, hate the bible. Here’s why: Those who study the bible, love the bible, live by the bible, don’t need Mormonism to get their answers.

Paul (a former Mormon, now happily Catholic)

Note that if you actually read what I wrote, you’d see that I was not attacking the Bible, but showing that atheists use the same argument that is being used against the Book of Mormon, which shows a double standard (since the atheists’ argument wouldn’t hold weight, yet we are somehow supposed to buy into the argument when used against the Book of Mormon). The fact is that many critics of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints use arguments that can be used against their own religions, showing a double standard.

Caprica (happily Mormon)

 

[zaffiroborant]

What an excellent description of the addiction to positive social reinforcement that can occur in Mormonism!! It smells very bad. Emotional and spiritual manipulation at its most scary.

LJ,
The descriptions of Zion in the Old Testament depict a situation where the “children shall be taught of the Lord, and great shall be the peace of thy children”. If that picture doesn’t look like a picture where there is “positive social reinforcement” since the children are in a situation where there is peace around them, then I guess you have a different view of what “Zion” would be comprised of than I do.

There is nothing wrong with a group saying, “we have a good situation–let’s work to make it even better”–so long as no one feels “forced” into choosing to do that.

Not that I care about your choice of words above since you are free to choose, but you might at least try and let the Bible be your guide rather than dark spirits bringing darkness and fear and gloom and doom into the word picture you paint.

And here we have 2 “attacks” one on a church/religion and another on a person.

 

[RebeccaJ]

The true gospel Christ offered is not about validating every feeling a person has.

It sure isn’t about interpreting other people’s feelings for them.

 

[Anna_Scott]

Parker,
Your comments are clearly aimed at SteveVH and me, since we both described a sick feeling when reading the BoM. I also said I felt engulfed in darkness when reading the BoM.

The Holy Spirit dwells within Christians, and guides in spiritual discernment. There are times when we are able to sense darkness-we get a glimpse into the spiritual realm. It is the presence of darkness that can cause a Christian to feel “sick”. Dark forces (Satan, Demons) affect us on a spiritual and visceral level. It is not God who causes us to feel “sick”. He allows us to see, to recognize that which is against His truth.

You are right in saying that God is not a God of confusion. He made it very clear to Steve and to me that what we were reading was contrary to His Truth. God clarified the issue.

You are, also, right in saying, God doesn’t “herd people toward truth and light by jarring their soul and body into conformity.” When I realized the truth and left the Mormon Church, I was literally on the floor, on my face before God, asking his forgiveness. Christ carried me back to His Truth—as a shepherd carries a lost sheep upon his back to be reunited with his flock.

1 Corinthians 12: 4 Now there are varieties of gifts, but the same Spirit; 5 and there are varieties of service, but the same Lord; 6 and there are varieties of activities, but it is the same God who empowers them all in everyone. 7 To each is given the manifestation of the Spirit for the common good. . . . .10 to another the working of miracles, to another prophecy, to another the ability to distinguish between spirits. . . .

**Ephesians 6: ** 10 Finally, be strong in the Lord and in the strength of his might. 11 Put on the whole armor of God, that you may be able to stand against the schemes of the devil. 12 For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the cosmic powers over this present darkness, against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly places.

In Christ,
Anna

Anna Scott,
If you were acting out of the sincerity of your heart, then there was nothing to repent of even if you decided you had embraced a “false gospel” and thus changed your mind.

This is such an important item to realize–God is not about forcing behavior, and desires instead sincere choices made with the best of intentions. It sounds like you did that–therefore, when you changed your mind you had nothing to “repent of”, and the feelings you had where you fell to the floor were not from God. It is as simple as that.

Parker,

I think you are missing the whole issue of “spiritual discernment” of which the Bible speaks; and the battle that is fought in the spiritual realm.

The New Testament has much to say about falling prey to false prophets, false apostles, etc. I’m rather shocked that you would claim there is no need for repentance when one realizes they have embraced a false gospel. Do you really believe that?

In Christ,
Anna

 

[LongJourney]

you might at least try and let the Bible be your guide rather than dark spirits bringing darkness and fear and gloom and doom into the word picture you paint.

I will stick to the Bible, thank you. The references to the bad smell of the BoM brought images of the Holocaust to mind. I’m sure you remember those images. It seems that you forget the cold descriptions of those incidents. Except for Coriantumr, and his extreme situation, there is a certain callousness to the extremes of death and destruction. The BoM is without light, full of dark images of fear and destruction and gloom and doom. Quite a word-picture.

I have gotten some very worthwhile suggestions on revisions for my book.

Fiction, fiction, fiction, fiction, fiction, fiction, fiction, fiction, fiction, fiction, fiction, fiction, fiction, fiction,…

 

[yankee_drifter]

Yankee Drifter,
One should expect splinter groups, especially from a religion that has a strong belief in personal revelation, because it is going to attract people who believe in that concept and believe strongly and teach freedom of choice.

If people believe in personal revelation, then unless they become very familiar with the guidance of the Holy Ghost in their own life plus the guidance of a prophet and how God balances the two in leading the people to the changes they need to make in their lives as they seek to become sanctified through the atonement and grace of Christ, then they can go “off balance” pretty easily and be distracted by other “voices” or by someone who appeals to what they want to follow.

The “natural man” isn’t inclined to follow prophetic leadership, ever. There is no guarantee that just because someone is LDS at a point in their life, they are not going to slip into a mode of being a “natural man” and yet want some of the doctrines they personally liked and find a “splinter group” religion that matches what appeals to them, or start one.

With all due respect, the lds accuses other faith groups of being false because they have split into other denominations. The thing you fail to understand is that these denominations adhere to the same creed. They may however differ in the nonessential.

Tell me, how many of your prophets/presidents in the past century have made any prophecies? I ask this because you claim you church receives ongoing revelations.

 

[ParkerD]

Parker,

I think you are missing the whole issue of “spiritual discernment” of which the Bible speaks; and the battle that is fought in the spiritual realm.

The New Testament has much to say about falling prey to false prophets, false apostles, etc. I’m rather shocked that you would claim there is no need for repentance when one realizes they have embraced a false gospel. Do you really believe that?

In Christ,
Anna

Anna,

Yes, I do.

I guess I’ll make three points here to give background for that short answer to your question.

First, if we read those passages in the New Testament that talk about “falling prey to false prophets, etc.” then we also read about some of their qualities including either what they preach or how they live, such as the following passage in 2 John:

5 And now I beseech thee, lady, not as though I wrote a new commandment unto thee, but that which we had from the beginning, that we love one another.
6 And this is love, that we walk after his commandments. This is the commandment, That, as ye have heard from the beginning, ye should walk in it.
7 For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.
8 Look to yourselves, that we lose not those things which we have wrought, but that we receive a full reward.
9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.
10 If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed:
11 For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.

The “evil deeds” John writes about are if a “deceiver” “confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh” or doesn’t “love one another” or doesn’t “walk after his commandments” or when in transgression (meaning doing something short of perfection), doesn’t repent as Christ taught to do. The gospel is about repentance for sin, and believing that Jesus Christ came “in the flesh” and has the power to heal from sin.

Christ always taught “look for their fruits”. I think you were acting out of genuine love for God and Christ when you made the choice you made, and you certainly believed that “Jesus Christ is come in the flesh”, and at that time you would have had “good fruit” in how you were living your life. So changing your mind would not require repentance since you were still going to be loving God, loving Christ, loving others, keeping the commandments, and bringing forth “good fruits”. The “before” condition was going to be the same as the “after” condition in those aspects of living the gospel.

Second point: the Savior will “wipe away all tears from their eyes” in the next life, so He ultimately does become the One who validates all genuine feelings, and in essence says “it’s OK–I have understood and I have compassion on you.”

Isa. 25: 8
8 He will swallow up death in victory; and the Lord God will wipe away tears from off all faces; and the rebuke of his people shall he take away from off all the earth: for the Lord hath spoken it.
Rev. 7: 17
17 For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.
Rev. 21: 4
4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

So I wasn’t trying to say we shouldn’t trust our genuine feelings, only that some few have a “gift of discerning of spirits”, and others (many) don’t. I think the Bible gives a basis for distinguishing, and it’s on the basis of the results (the fruits, meaning day-to-day actions). But even so, the Savior will have compassion on all genuine actions of the heart that also include having loved God and having sought to keep His commandments.

Third point: I think it is unwise to base the picture one draws for their life on any single religious experience. I don’t think the New Testament shows the Holy Ghost working in that way, usually. (Everyone is not a Saul/Paul.)

 

[SnakeMauler]

Guys! It proves nothing to show Mormons that there are verses ripped off from the Bible because they’ll just say God revealed the same thing to multiple prophets, who in turn all spoke the same language and wrote the same exact thing down, and no new dialects really developed over many generations that one would expect from a people separated between two continents. That’s why Mormonism is the biggest scam ever. You show them they ripped off stuff, they’ll be like “God just revealed to the prophets the same thing.” You tell them no one ever saw the Golden plates, they’ll say there’s those 8 witnesses or whatever mentioned at the beginning of the BoM who did. You call them polygamists, they’ll call you bigoted and racist.

 

[ParkerD]

With all due respect, the lds accuses other faith groups of being false because they have split into other denominations. The thing you fail to understand is that these denominations adhere to the same creed. They may however differ in the nonessential.

Tell me, how many of your prophets/presidents in the past century have made any prophecies? I ask this because you claim you church receives ongoing revelations.

Yankee Drifter,

During New Testament times, the original church moved into a more advanced mode of living the gospel than the thinking that a prophet was going to make “prophecies” about specific future events such as were made in the Old Testament. That advanced mode of living the gospel included that everyone should become “one”, that everyone should be receiving personal revelation because that is how Christ was going to help them become better and gain the full fruits of the gospel, and that the church still needed prophets for the sake of maintaining the pure doctrines and making major operational shifts such as the preaching of the gospel and baptizing of the Gentile nations and no circumcision for the converts.

But there was not a situation of prophecies about immediate future events as a major focus for the work of the prophets. They were more “steady as she goes” than “such and such is going to happen” in their words to the people.

Even so, LDS prophets have certainly forewarned about tough economic times (now upon us in the world) and the need for preparing and living conservatively, have forewarned about media becoming saturated with advertising that would lead to unhealthy behaviors (such as smoking); have forewarned about the need for families to stay close to each other and have family prayer and family scripture study and family time together because the world was going to operate in ways that would attempt to pull families apart and draw them away from loving God.

 

[Caprica]

Guys! It proves nothing to show Mormons that there are verses ripped off from the Bible because they’ll just say God revealed the same thing to multiple prophets, who in turn all spoke the same language and wrote the same exact thing down, and no new dialects really developed over many generations that one would expect from a people separated between two continents. That’s why Mormonism is the biggest scam ever. You show them they ripped off stuff, they’ll be like “God just revealed to the prophets the same thing.” You tell them no one ever saw the Golden plates, they’ll say there’s those 8 witnesses or whatever mentioned at the beginning of the BoM who did. You call them polygamists, they’ll call you bigoted and racist.

And this shows you actually have no idea what our viewpoints on such matters are.