Tell me what you think of this chapter in the Book of Mormon

[ParkerD]

Speaking as someone familiar with their beliefs, that is not accurate. I will leave it to LDS to clarify.

JeanMichel,
I had seen that comment and had let it go since often there is no point in going around in circles with someone who was merely seeking to confirm their own misunderstanding and “go on their way” no wiser, but since you asked for a clarification, and I for one have appreciated your insights and especially your charitable and knowledgeable responses, here goes:

1–God the Father is the Supreme Ruler of the universe, and has always been so.

2–The words “His Only Begotten Son” mean literally that Jesus is the Son of the Father, through miraculous means known by the Father but not by us, other than that through the power of the Holy Ghost, Mary was able to conceive a divine Son in her womb. That Jesus is also of Davidic descent, born of this virgin Mary (who literally was a virgin and remained a virgin until after He was born) who was a descendant of King David, are also literal beliefs of the LDS and are taught in the Book of Mormon as well as in the Bible. (More on that in point 4, below.)

3–Jesus is Alpha and Omega, and as such was God the Son in the pre-mortal world where we all knew His love and goodness, His power in the universe by which He created this earth and other earths with His power of faith, His omniscience and omnipotence, and His love for all that the Father loves. He always acts in perfect harmony with the Father. They are One, truly, in all things that They do.

4–Because of His love for us and our need to be rescued, Jesus needed to descend “from His throne divine” and come to earth with a body begotten through a mortal mother, so that even though His spirit would bring the intelligence and capacity He brought from His pre-mortal perfection, His body would have the capacity to feel mortal pains even to the point of descending below all things in suffering intensely more pain and anguish than any mortal could possibly suffer–this so that He could suffer the infinite atonement and thus offer us complete redemptive grace.

5–Jesus also needed the power over death inherent in Him by virtue of being the literal Son (in the flesh) of God the Father, Who was His literal Father. Thus He had the power to resurrect Himself and conquer death, and also to bring about the resurrection of all humankind through having suffered our pains, even unto death. When we say He “died for us”, there are several literal ways in which that statement is true, and each is significantly important.

JeanMichel,
God bless you. Have a wonderful day and a peaceful, joyful week.

 

[RebeccaJ]

JeanMichel,
I had seen that comment and had let it go since often there is no point in going around in circles with someone who was merely seeking to confirm their own misunderstanding and “go on their way” no wiser, but since you asked for a clarification, and I for one have appreciated your insights and especially your charitable and knowledgeable responses, here goes:

1–God the Father is the Supreme Ruler of the universe, and has always been so.

2–The words “His Only Begotten Son” mean literally that Jesus is the Son of the Father, through miraculous means known by the Father but not by us, other than that through the power of the Holy Ghost, Mary was able to conceive a divine Son in her womb. That Jesus is also of Davidic descent, born of this virgin Mary (who literally was a virgin and remained a virgin until after He was born) who was a descendant of King David, are also literal beliefs of the LDS and are taught in the Book of Mormon as well as in the Bible. (More on that in point 4, below.)

3–Jesus is Alpha and Omega, and as such was God the Son in the pre-mortal world where we all knew His love and goodness, His power in the universe by which He created this earth and other earths with His power of faith, His omniscience and omnipotence, and His love for all that the Father loves. He always acts in perfect harmony with the Father. They are One, truly, in all things that They do.

4–Because of His love for us and our need to be rescued, Jesus needed to descend “from His throne divine” and come to earth with a body begotten through a mortal mother, so that even though His spirit would bring the intelligence and capacity He brought from His pre-mortal perfection, His body would have the capacity to feel mortal pains even to the point of descending below all things in suffering intensely more pain and anguish than any mortal could possibly suffer–this so that He could suffer the infinite atonement and thus offer us complete redemptive grace.

5–Jesus also needed the power over death inherent in Him by virtue of being the literal Son (in the flesh) of God the Father, Who was His literal Father. Thus He had the power to resurrect Himself and conquer death, and also to bring about the resurrection of all humankind through having suffered our pains, even unto death. When we say He “died for us”, there are several literal ways in which that statement is true, and each is significantly important.

JeanMichel,
God bless you. Have a wonderful day and a peaceful, joyful week.

Full of the language of deception. What is that point of doing this?

 

[Caprica]

Full of the language of deception. What is that point of doing this?

What is the point in explaining our beliefs? Is that what you’re asking?

 

[RebeccaJ]

What is the point in explaining our beliefs? Is that what you’re asking?

No, what is the point in purposely using language that obscures?

 

[ParkerD]

What is that point of doing this?

RebeccaJ,
A long time ago in one thread, I recall that you didn’t know that the LDS belief has always been that Jehovah and Jesus Christ are the same Person. That comment alone showed me that you never understood LDS doctrine beyond a child’s level, which means the misconceptions you brought from your childhood still linger and you have no knowledge of what I expressed as firm understanding about God the Father, His Son Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost. (I was brief, but can go into more detail if someone has questions.)

I sense that you have studied Catholic doctrine and firmly understand your own beliefs. Good–great! But if you think any of your background qualifies you to tell me what I believe and know to be true, then while you have the right to think that, I assure you I can explain and thoroughly back up every statement I made.

 

[Pahoran]

Full of the language of deception. What is that point of doing this?

I have read Parker’s post carefully, looking for instances of “the language of deception.” I see none.

Only if you define “deception” as “refusing do describe his own faith in terms of the hostile caricature others try to impose upon it,” can any “deception” be seen in his post.

I admire Parker’s patience with you. It shows considerable charity and restraint.

Regards,
Pahoran

 

[PaulDupre]

RebeccaJ,
… LDS belief has always been that Jehovah and Jesus Christ are the same Person…

That is Catholic belief as well.

These words [of the Prophets], then, have become the proof that Jesus Christ is the Son and Apostle of God, being of old the Word, appearing at one time in the guise of fire, and at another time as an incorporeal image. And now, by the will of God and for the sake of the human race, He has become man… Although the Jews were always of the opinion that it was the Father of all who had spoken to Moses, it was in fact the Son of God, who is called both Angel and Apostle, who spoke to him… Formerly He appeared to Moses and to the other prophets in the form of fire and as an incorporeal image; now, in the times of your reign, having become man, as we said, by a Virgin and by the will of the Father, for the sake of those who believe in Him, He allowed Himself to be treated with contempt and to suffer so that by death and resurrection He might conquer death.

• St. Justin Martyr, First Apology, A.D. 148-155

Of course, you recall that:

Angel = message bearer
Apostle = one who is sent

Paul

 

[RebeccaJ]

RebeccaJ,
A long time ago in one thread, I recall that you didn’t know that the LDS belief has always been that Jehovah and Jesus Christ are the same Person. That comment alone showed me that you never understood LDS doctrine beyond a child’s level, which means the misconceptions you brought from your childhood still linger and you have no knowledge of what I expressed as firm understanding about God the Father, His Son Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost. (I was brief, but can go into more detail if someone has questions.)

I sense that you have studied Catholic doctrine and firmly understand your own beliefs. Good–great! But if you think any of your background qualifies you to tell me what I believe and know to be true, then while you have the right to think that, I assure you I can explain and thoroughly back up every statement I made.

ParkerD, I recall not so long ago you providing as evidence of the BoM a website that claimed the pyramids in Egypt were constructed by aliens.

So forgive me if I don’t find what you perceive to be as all that reliable.

I’m not telling you what you believe.I’m telling you that from the conversations we’ve engaged in here, the questions you’ve asked, that you carefully craft your posts in order to deceive others.

“Literal father”…tell us ParkerD, what does that mean? Are we discussing the demi-godhood belief of the mormon jesus again?

 

[zaffiroborant]

Hi, Zaffiroborant,
Thanks for asking for clarification.

I am supposing that the LDS use the word “faith” in a different way than others, since it is understood to mean “the principle of action in all intelligent beings” as taught by Joseph Smith (Lectures on Faith). To exercise “faith” in the ultimate manner is to be able to bring about positive change in the universe through willful, loving direction that is completely motivated by knowledge of the true governing principles of the universe. The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, of course, know completely the true governing principles of the universe and thus They govern all matter, energy, and life forms in the universe, and do so by using their “faith”, which to me means that they will always convey “free will” and yet command obedience through perfect love. The elements, matter, energy, and life forms obey them because of their perfect love and their perfect understanding of the governing principles that the Father both ordained and governs by. He ordained those principles and governs by them because they are pure truth.

So when the Savior talked about having the faith to move a mountain, He was talking about exercising the faith necessary that matter (the mountain) would respond to a perfectly loving, purposeful command that the mountain be moved, in accordance with the divine will. (Enoch was evidently able to do that, and Melchizedek, and the brother of Jared, but few men on earth have been able to do that or have had that level of faith to do that.)

I don’t guess that was a very good answer to your question, but it was an attempt.

Well you’re right in your guess, since your answer didn’t really make any sense after your explanation of JS definition of faith. I don’t see how what you said after his definition of faith had anything to do with the definition given. Basically all I got from that is that you have no business using the word in conversation knowing full well no one else holds to your non-dictionary understanding of the word.

Faith, hope in Christ, and charity are always going to be intertwined and inseparable, and they always imply action, not just passive belief.

There are quite a few examples of “just passive belief” resulting in miraculous outcomes, so I have to disagree that faith is always connected to action.

 

[ParkerD]

Well you’re right in your guess, since your answer didn’t really make any sense after your explanation of JS definition of faith. I don’t see how what you said after his definition of faith had anything to do with the definition given.

OK by me, Zaffiroborant. Here are parts of the Lectures on Faith (lecture one) I was referring to:

"9. From this we learn that faith is the assurance which men have of the existence of things which they have not seen, and the principle of action in all intelligent beings.

1. If men were duly to consider themselves, and turn their thoughts and reflections to the operations of their own minds, they would readily discover that it is faith, and faith only, which is the moving cause of all action in them; that without it both mind and body would be in a state of inactivity, and all their exertions would cease, both physical and mental.
2. Were this class to go back and reflect upon the history of their lives, from the period of their first recollection, and ask themselves what principle excited them to action, or what gave them energy and activity in all their lawful avocations, callings, and pursuits, what would be the answer? Would it not be that it was the assurance which they had of the existence of things which they had not seen as yet? …Would you have ever asked, unless you had believed that you would receive? Would you have ever sought, unless you had believed that you would have found? Or, would you have ever knocked, unless you had believed that it would have been opened unto you? In a word, is there anything that you would have done, either physical or mental, if you had not previously believed? Are not all your exertions of every kind, dependent on your faith? …Turn your thoughts on your own minds, and see if faith is not the moving cause of all action in yourselves; and, if the moving cause in you, is it not in all other intelligent beings?
3. And as faith is the moving cause of all action in temporal concerns, so it is in spiritual; for the Saviour has said, and that truly, that “He that believeth and is baptized, shall be saved.” Mark 16:16.
4. As we receive by faith all temporal blessings that we do receive, so we in like manner receive by faith all spiritual blessings that we do receive. But faith is not only the principle of action, but of power also, in all intelligent beings, whether in heaven or on earth. Thus says the author of the epistle to the Hebrews, 11:3—
5. “Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God; so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.”
6. By this we understand that the principle of power which existed in the bosom of God, by which the worlds were framed, was faith; and that it is by reason of this principle of power existing in the Deity, that all created things exist; so that all things in heaven, on earth, or under the earth exist by reason of faith as it existed in Him.
7. Had it not been for the principle of faith the worlds would never have been framed neither would man have been formed of the dust. It is the principle by which Jehovah works, and through which he exercises power over all temporal as well as eternal things. Take this principle or attribute — for it is an attribute — from the Deity, and he would cease to exist.
8. Who cannot see, that if God framed the worlds by faith, that it is by faith that he exercises power over them, and that faith is the principle of power? And if the principle of power, it must be so in man as well as in the Deity? This is the testimony of all the sacred writers, and the lesson which they have been endeavoring to teach to man.
9. The Saviour says (Matthew 17:19, 20), in explaining the reason why the disciples could not cast out the devil, that it was because of their unbelief — “For verily I say unto you” (said he), “if ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place,’ and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you.”
10. …it was by faith the mountain Zerin was removed when the brother of Jared spake in the name of the Lord. See also 599th page.
11. In addition to this we are told in Hebrews 11:32, 33, 34, 35, that Gideon, Barak, Samson, Jephthah, David, Samuel, and the prophets, through faith subdued Kingdoms, wrought righteousness, obtained promises, stopped the mouths of lions, quenched the violence of fire, escaped the edge of the sword; out of weakness were made strong, waxed valiant in fight, turned to flight the armies of the aliens, and that women received their dead raised to life again, etc.
12. Also Joshua, in the sight of all Israel, bade the sun and moon to stand still, and it was done. Joshua 10:12.
13. We here understand, that the sacred writers say that all these things were done by faith. It was by faith that the worlds were framed. God spake, chaos heard, and worlds came into order by reason of the faith there was in Him. So with man also; he spake by faith in the name of God, and the sun stood still, the moon obeyed, mountains removed, prisons fell, lions’ mouths were closed, the human heart lost its enmity, fire its violence, armies their power, the sword its terror, and death its dominion; and all this by reason of the faith which was in him.
14. Had it not been for the faith which was in men, they might have spoken to the sun, the moon, the mountains, prisons, the human heart, fire, armies, the sword, or to death in vain!
15. Faith, then, is the first great governing principle which has power, dominion, and authority over all things; by it they exist, by it they are upheld, by it they are changed, or by it they remain, agreeable to the will of God. Without it there is no power, and without power there could be no creation nor existence!

 

[ParkerD]

ParkerD, I recall not so long ago you providing as evidence of the BoM a website that claimed the pyramids in Egypt were constructed by aliens.

So forgive me if I don’t find what you perceive to be as all that reliable.

I’m not telling you what you believe.I’m telling you that from the conversations we’ve engaged in here, the questions you’ve asked, that you carefully craft your posts in order to deceive others.

“Literal father”…tell us ParkerD, what does that mean? Are we discussing the demi-godhood belief of the mormon jesus again?

RJ,
I have no idea what your first sentence is talking about, unless about a website that talked about ancient America artifacts. I was giving it as an example, not as the be-all and end-all for artifacts in the world.

(I have occasionally hoped there might be sincere two-way conversation, but wouldn’t expect to be thought of in the word you used, so such is life particularly in a forum such as this.)

Interesting question about “literal father”, since a while back I got the impression from what you wrote that some Catholics don’t believe Mary was the “literal mother” of Christ (meaning He was her blood relation Son). I was pleasantly surprised when a thread came up about Jesus having Mary’s DNA contribution.

It has also been explained to me that Catholics believe that Jesus is literally the Son of God the Father.

So if you’re asking me to differentiate, then I honestly don’t know what Catholics believe in terms of the “how”, since they don’t believe the Father has a physical body. The LDS know that the Father has a perfect resurrected physical body of flesh and bones. We don’t know whether DNA is a part of the contribution that came from Heavenly Father to place His Only Begotten Son into Mary’s womb as the embryo with part of that divine embryo coming from God the Father and part of that divine embryo coming from Mary, but we do know that Jesus had that contribution of life-giving “seed” from the Father that made Jesus His Only Begotten Son, and that Mary (Jesus’ literal mother) was continuously a virgin before, during, and after her conception and until after the birth of the Holy Son, Jesus Christ.

 

[ParkerD]

That is Catholic belief as well.

Of course, you recall that:

Angel = message bearer
Apostle = one who is sent

Paul

Paul,
Thanks sincerely. I had wondered about what Catholics believe about Jehovah being Christ or being God the Father, so thanks for clarifying.

If you or Zaffiroborant happen to see the conversation with RJ about Jesus being the literal Son of God the Father and the literal son of Mary, then if either of you can clarify what it is that I am supposed to understand when RJ uses the words she uses and seems to conclude that I am supposed to know some obvious difference between my belief about those qualities of the Savior, and the Catholic belief that He was “fully God” and “fully Man”–Man of Holiness–please do and I will sincerely appreciate that.

(By the way, I don’t mean the “how” that boils down to repeating what was written in The Seer or what was written in Mormon Doctrine as personal opinions. I mean given the knowledge that Mary remained a virgin until after the birth of Christ, yet she contributed DNA to the forming of the embryo that grew into and became the miraculously conceived physical body of the Holy Son, Jesus.)

 

[benidict]

I did not even know what a Mormon was until 2 years ago. (I live in a Catholic dominating Country, Praise God!)

I dont know whats worse Islam or LDS!

What? Cared to explain more?

The Bible was created by the Catholic Church, it did not just appear, nor as scripture ever been lost from the bible.

Because these two OT prophets named Zenos and Zenock who apparently gave specific information about the Lord, probably was not in the bible in first place therefore this is why you cannot find them in the Bible.

Zenos and Zenock sound like something out of Star Trek.

A little bit of logic will discredit the Mormon Church.

LDS church founded in 1830 by a MAN named Joseph Smith. Obviously not by Jesus Christ, since he established his church called the Catholic Church which is mainstream Christianity and the gates of hades cannot prevail over this church.

Joseph Smith, was nothing but the puppet of the Devil. Claiming to be a Prophet, only miracle he performed was raising a large cult of brainwashed followers.

well lets see. its not Mormons shooting at me and my brothers, or laying roadside bombs down to kill me and my brothers, or shooting mortars onto the base we are at. its wasnt Mormons who have killed 11 people in the brigade im part of. its not Mormons who behead people or persecute Catholics where im at. come to think of it, it wasnt Mormons who crashed a plane into the world trade center and the pentagon on sept 11. however i have a squad leader i roll out with who happens to BE Mormon, i also went thru basic and A.I.T. with mitt romneys cousin. i also know a master sgt. who is as patriotic as they come, and for whom i would take a bullet for any day, oh yes, hes Mormon. i would encourage you my friend to get to know these people a little better. you cannot judge them by their founders. todays Mormons are in no way related to their founders, exept in name only. you just may find you like them. Peace

 

[LongJourney]

i would encourage you my friend to get to know these people a little better. you cannot judge them by their founders. todays Mormons are in no way related to their founders, exept in name only. you just may find you like them. Peace

However, as time goes on, and they chase out the moderate believers, they could revert to such things as blood atonement. There are several books available about some of the things their crazies have done. The picture is not pretty. Although I agree with you. Most of them are decent people. A few treat non-Mormons like dung.

And the majority of Muslims are not like the radicals who started this war.

 

[benidict]

However, as time goes on, and they chase out the moderate believers, they could revert to such things as blood atonement. There are several books available about some of the things their crazies have done. The picture is not pretty. Although I agree with you. Most of them are decent people. A few treat non-Mormons like dung.

And the majority of Muslims are not like the radicals who started this war.

come now long journey. do you really think the the mainline branch of the LDS Church would tolerate the return of blood atonement? this was a brief ugly part of LDS history that has never been repeated in the mainline Church.there are crazies in all faiths. however in islam it is perfectly alright if a young woman is raped, for her parents to kill her because she is no longer a virgin. it is called honor killing. even though i agree with you that it was a small minority of muslims that launched these attacks, (10 million out of the billion.) there are still many problems faceing the most innocent of people in these countries. if im not mistaken, you are a convert from Mormonism, correct? have your relatives ever threatened to kill you for it? try doing this in saudi arabia, or any other country in the region in which i reside. the Catholic Church is underground here. why? because of the the abuse they face. i know some personally. not to mention the Sabians, who are the spiritual descendants of John the baptist, they are also a persecuted minority, on the verge of being wiped out. pray that this does not happen. are there good Muslims. you bet. have many that i like and have daily contact with. but the reality in this part of the world is, you never know. the same person that is calling you “brother” today, may be the same one shooting at you, or trying to blow you up tomorrow. those are just the facts. i live with the reality every day. Peace

 

[LongJourney]

there are still many problems facing the most innocent of people in these countries. if I’m not mistaken, you are a convert from Mormonism, correct? have your relatives ever threatened to kill you for it?

No, I am not a convert from Mormonism. I went through some serious harassment from Mormons partially because I am a descendant of a man who probably participated in the attack on the Carthage jail. mormondiscussions.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=14867

the Catholic Church is underground here. why? because of the the abuse they face.

I can identify with their plight, because I have been through similar circumstances.

And a lot of their problems have to do with a struggle to survive, because the BoM, the admitted cornerstone of their faith, has been proven to be a fraud, from multiple perspectives.

 

[benidict]

No, I am not a convert from Mormonism. I went through some serious harassment from Mormons partially because I am a descendant of a man who probably participated in the attack on the Carthage jail. mormondiscussions.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=14867 I can identify with their plight, because I have been through similar circumstances.

my sincere prayers for you. how would they have known you were a descendant of someone who had killed Joseph Smith? peace

 

[LongJourney]

Because they collect genealogies?

 

[dianaiad]

Because they collect genealogies?

LJ, with all due respect, I doubt that. For one thing, anybody with a genealogy (which means everybody) has folks in their background that they’d rather distance themselves from.

I do. I don’t know anybody who doesn’t.

Now…I know that you are descended from one of the mob members. Why?

Because you not only told me, you are out and out proud of it. Even so, you will notice that I haven’t given you a bad time for being descended from this man, no matter how much you push it.

I do think it’s a bit much that you are so danged proud of him and his actions, emphasizing that to a bunch of Mormons. That is, you realize, a little like declaring your pride in an ancestor who belonged to the Black Hundreds–in a synagogue, or, if your ancestor happened to be Nathan Bedford Forest, to declare your pride and support for his actions–to a bunch of AME church members.

In other words, you are in no way to blame for your ancestry, LJ. Your own attitude toward what your ancestors did, though?

Well…that is about who you are, not who they were.

 

[LongJourney]

In other words, you are in no way to blame for your ancestry, LJ…Well that is about who you are, not who they were.

Why, thank you. I appreciate that.