Tell me what you think of this chapter in the Book of Mormon

[Pahoran]

No, I am not a convert from Mormonism. I went through some serious harassment from Mormons partially because I am a descendant of a man who probably participated in the attack on the Carthage jail. mormondiscussions.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=14867

Umm, LJ? Your link does not support your claim. The only mention of Carthage Jail in your “Poor me” story is that you’d never visited it.

And I frankly do not believe that any Mormon ever singled you out for “serious harassment” on such a basis.

Since you know nothing at all about Mormonism, I will explain to you that Dianaid’s view is the fully typical and strictly orthodox LDS view on this matter. “We believe that men will be punished for their own sins and not for Adam’s transgression.” (Articles of Faith 1:2.) Which, of course, goes for any other ancestor as well.

The Articles of Faith are memorised by all LDS Primary children before they turn 12. I’ve never met a Mormon with the thoroughly heterodox attitudes you describe, and I doubt that you have either.

And a lot of their problems have to do with a struggle to survive, because the BoM, the admitted cornerstone of their faith, has been proven to be a fraud, from multiple perspectives.

No. It has not.

From any perspective.

And your 550-page Chick Tract doesn’t do it either.

Because they collect genealogies?

Once again, you demonstrate that you know nothing at all about Mormonism. We do our own family histories. If any Latter-day Saint doing genealogical research were to learn that you were a descendant of a particular ancestor, it could only be because that Latter-day Saint had that ancestor in common with you.

Of course, it was an easy mistake for you to make; you know nothing about the Latter-day Saints, after all.

Regards,
Pahoran

 

[Pahoran]

However, as time goes on, and they chase out the moderate believers, they could revert to such things as blood atonement.

Ah. The old “Blood atonement” libel; the anti-Mormon version of the “Blood libel” so beloved of anti-Semites.

There is nothing to which to “revert.” Sorry to disappoint you.

There are several books available about some of the things their crazies have done.

“Our” crazies, as you are pleased to call them, are usually excommunicated before they commit their acts of craziness; and if not before, then invariably after.

Thus, they are not ours at all.

Just BTW, what action did the Catholic Church take against the soldiers who were guilty of the St. Bartholomew’s Day Massacre?

Should we all shudder at the thought of the Catholic Church “reverting” to something like that?

The picture is not pretty.

It’s a lot prettier in real life than it is with people like you holding the paintbrush.

Or should that be – the tar-brush?

Regards,
Pahoran

 

[LongJourney]

Pahoran, your posts speak for themselves. Good day.

 

[zaffiroborant]

OK by me, Zaffiroborant. Here are parts of the Lectures on Faith (lecture one) I was referring to:

"9. From this we learn that faith is the assurance which men have of the existence of things which they have not seen, and the principle of action in all intelligent beings.

1. If men were duly to consider themselves, and turn their thoughts and reflections to the operations of their own minds, they would readily discover that it is faith, and faith only, which is the moving cause of all action in them; that without it both mind and body would be in a state of inactivity, and all their exertions would cease, both physical and mental.
2. Were this class to go back and reflect upon the history of their lives, from the period of their first recollection, and ask themselves what principle excited them to action, or what gave them energy and activity in all their lawful avocations, callings, and pursuits, what would be the answer? Would it not be that it was the assurance which they had of the existence of things which they had not seen as yet? …Would you have ever asked, unless you had believed that you would receive? Would you have ever sought, unless you had believed that you would have found? Or, would you have ever knocked, unless you had believed that it would have been opened unto you? In a word, is there anything that you would have done, either physical or mental, if you had not previously believed? Are not all your exertions of every kind, dependent on your faith? …Turn your thoughts on your own minds, and see if faith is not the moving cause of all action in yourselves; and, if the moving cause in you, is it not in all other intelligent beings?
3. And as faith is the moving cause of all action in temporal concerns, so it is in spiritual; for the Saviour has said, and that truly, that “He that believeth and is baptized, shall be saved.” Mark 16:16.
4. As we receive by faith all temporal blessings that we do receive, so we in like manner receive by faith all spiritual blessings that we do receive. But faith is not only the principle of action, but of power also, in all intelligent beings, whether in heaven or on earth. Thus says the author of the epistle to the Hebrews, 11:3—
5. “Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God; so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.”
6. By this we understand that the principle of power which existed in the bosom of God, by which the worlds were framed, was faith; and that it is by reason of this principle of power existing in the Deity, that all created things exist; so that all things in heaven, on earth, or under the earth exist by reason of faith as it existed in Him.
7. Had it not been for the principle of faith the worlds would never have been framed neither would man have been formed of the dust. It is the principle by which Jehovah works, and through which he exercises power over all temporal as well as eternal things. Take this principle or attribute — for it is an attribute — from the Deity, and he would cease to exist.
8. Who cannot see, that if God framed the worlds by faith, that it is by faith that he exercises power over them, and that faith is the principle of power? And if the principle of power, it must be so in man as well as in the Deity? This is the testimony of all the sacred writers, and the lesson which they have been endeavoring to teach to man.
9. The Saviour says (Matthew 17:19, 20), in explaining the reason why the disciples could not cast out the devil, that it was because of their unbelief — “For verily I say unto you” (said he), “if ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place,’ and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you.”
10. …it was by faith the mountain Zerin was removed when the brother of Jared spake in the name of the Lord. See also 599th page.
11. In addition to this we are told in Hebrews 11:32, 33, 34, 35, that Gideon, Barak, Samson, Jephthah, David, Samuel, and the prophets, through faith subdued Kingdoms, wrought righteousness, obtained promises, stopped the mouths of lions, quenched the violence of fire, escaped the edge of the sword; out of weakness were made strong, waxed valiant in fight, turned to flight the armies of the aliens, and that women received their dead raised to life again, etc.
12. Also Joshua, in the sight of all Israel, bade the sun and moon to stand still, and it was done. Joshua 10:12.
13. We here understand, that the sacred writers say that all these things were done by faith. It was by faith that the worlds were framed. God spake, chaos heard, and worlds came into order by reason of the faith there was in Him. So with man also; he spake by faith in the name of God, and the sun stood still, the moon obeyed, mountains removed, prisons fell, lions’ mouths were closed, the human heart lost its enmity, fire its violence, armies their power, the sword its terror, and death its dominion; and all this by reason of the faith which was in him.
14. Had it not been for the faith which was in men, they might have spoken to the sun, the moon, the mountains, prisons, the human heart, fire, armies, the sword, or to death in vain!
15. Faith, then, is the first great governing principle which has power, dominion, and authority over all things; by it they exist, by it they are upheld, by it they are changed, or by it they remain, agreeable to the will of God. Without it there is no power, and without power there could be no creation nor existence!

Well it is still redefining the word faith so drastically that it has nothing in common with the word when it’s used by everyone else.

 

[Esdra]

In other words, Gnosticism. Even if I were to believe in the Book of Mormon I would have to follow one of the groups which descended from Joseph Smith III. The Brighamites are all involved with their mysteries and their secret teachings. They ignore what the Book of Mormon says when they it comes to their secret teachings. In fact I would be most likely to remain a Catholic who simply garners what’s good in the Book of Mormon and ignores the things that don’t make sense.

Hi

yeah, me too! I would also have to become a “Reorganized Mormon” if I would believe the BoM was true.
It’s pretty true that there are quite a few parts that contradict with in the Utah Church with what it says in the BoM - the secret teachings is just one of it!

Joseph Smith Jr. became a “fallen prophet” at the last when he started to “translate” the Book of Abraham.
And soon after 1835 (when the first D&C were printed) - it also says already in the 1835 Edition of the D&C about Baptism for the Dead for example.

Esdra

 

[benidict]

Because they collect genealogies?

somehow, i just cannot see donny and marie types coming after you with murder in their eyes. lol! ive yet to meet a one Mormon with a mean bone in their body. let alone wanting to seek your life. doubtful it was Mormons you were dealing with. it was probably just some mental case. Peace

 

[LongJourney]

Benedict:
Just because that is your experience does not mean my experience is invalid. I have never met a murderous Muslim. But I know they exist. Where you are, people have to cooperate in order to stay alive.

There were several of them, accompanied with their gossip network. Sick religion makes “mental cases” worse. And “mental cases” are attracted to sick religion.

Donny and Marie have troubles that make them, in some judgmental Mormon eyes, bad Mormons.

 

[benidict]

Benedict:
Just because that is your experience does not mean my experience is invalid. I have never met a murderous Muslim. But I know they exist. Where you are, people have to cooperate in order to stay alive.

There were several of them, accompanied with their gossip network. Sick religion makes “mental cases” worse. And “mental cases” are attracted to sick religion.

Donny and Marie have troubles that make them, in some judgmental Mormon eyes, bad Mormons./QUOTE my friend. comparing islamofacist muslims with Mormons is just kind of ridiculous. how many people do you know who have been killed by Mormons? i can give you 15 names of those in my brigade who have been killed or wounded by extremist muslims. want to know how they died? ok. had a young officer get his head blown off by a shape charged explosive. the rest were killed or wounded by an rkg ambush not too far from where i am right now. i hunt these types on a regular basis.ive looked into the faces of people who would just as soon see me dead. you have recourse of course. have you ever considered a libel suit? or pressing charges? i doubt a Mormon is going to plant a roadside bomb by your driveway, or try to kidnap your family because you disagree with them, or have something they dont like in your family history. the blood atonement has not been used in many many years. i dont know of any Mormon who would ever condone it. most Mormons are patriotic and constitutionalist. and they make very good neighbors. dont know who would be giving you so much grief but i have my doubts it was actually Mormons. i will however pray for your safety. and that angels will protect your steps, and that the Holy Spirit will give you peace in your heart and mind. Peace to you and yours.

 

[LongJourney]

There are many things short of murder that people do out of bigotry. Have you ever taken a look at the suicide rate by state? suicide.org/suicide-statistics.html#2005 Although the statistics vary from year to year, the states which have the higher concentration of LDS tend to be at the top of the list.

I will pass on the other questions.

Mormon Constitutionalism has more to do with how Mormons interpret the constitution than how the Supreme Court interprets it.

They are no longer bothering me because I moved to Wisconsin, and a very loving and tolerant town that generally understands what I have been through. Have you ever read about the Strangites?

 

[RebeccaJ]

my friend. comparing islamofacist muslims with Mormons is just kind of ridiculous. how many people do you know who have been killed by Mormons? i can give you 15 names of those in my brigade who have been killed or wounded by extremist muslims. want to know how they died? ok. had a young officer get his head blown off by a shape charged explosive. the rest were killed or wounded by an rkg ambush not too far from where i am right now. i hunt these types on a regular basis.ive looked into the faces of people who would just as soon see me dead. you have recourse of course. have you ever considered a libel suit? or pressing charges? i doubt a Mormon is going to plant a roadside bomb by your driveway, or try to kidnap your family because you disagree with them, or have something they dont like in your family history. the blood atonement has not been used in many many years. i dont know of any Mormon who would ever condone it. most Mormons are patriotic and constitutionalist. and they make very good neighbors. dont know who would be giving you so much grief but i have my doubts it was actually Mormons. i will however pray for your safety. and that angels will protect your steps, and that the Holy Spirit will give you peace in your heart and mind. Peace to you and yours.

benidict, thank you for your service.

To militant mormonism, it does exist, though it is definitely a fringey sort of thing. But I don’t think it would take much to push the entire group into militant mode. They are after all premillianiast who see violence as a Sign. Who’s previous prophets called for death oaths against non-mormons, and we see that practiced in places such as how “justice” is viewed by mormons, then and now. Mountain Meadow Massacre being the most famous.

But then again, the Catholic Church has had its militant eras. We just have this idea that we’ve come to a better understanding of the purpose for God’s Church (alibino Opus Dei assassins aside ).

I don’t know that Mormons have come to this point. Remains to be seen.

 

[flyonthewall]

benidict, thank you for your service.

To militant mormonism, it does exist, though it is definitely a fringey sort of thing. But I don’t think it would take much to push the entire group into militant mode. They are after all premillianiast who see violence as a Sign. Who’s previous prophets called for death oaths against non-mormons, and we see that practiced in places such as how “justice” is viewed by mormons, then and now. Mountain Meadow Massacre being the most famous.

But then again, the Catholic Church has had its militant eras. We just have this idea that we’ve come to a better understanding of the purpose for God’s Church (alibino Opus Dei assassins aside ).

I don’t know that Mormons have come to this point. Remains to be seen.

Rebecca, there is no limit to the wrongness of your statements above.
There is NO “militant mormonism”. It does not exist except in the fantasies of anti-mormons. LDS prophets have NEVER called for death oaths against anyone. That is a fabrication of anti-mormons.
Let me just state that your statements above, though you may beleive them, are as far from the truth as they can be.
I do not want to derail this thread, but could not leave this type of false statement to go unaddressed.

 

[RebeccaJ]

Rebecca, there is no limit to the wrongness of your statements above.
There is NO “militant mormonism”. It does not exist except in the fantasies of anti-mormons. LDS prophets have NEVER called for death oaths against anyone. That is a fabrication of anti-mormons.
Let me just state that your statements above, though you may beleive them, are as far from the truth as they can be.
I do not want to derail this thread, but could not leave this type of false statement to go unaddressed.

flyonthewall, here is a portion of the former content of your temple ceremony…

“You and each of you do covenant and promise that you will pray and never cease to pray to Almighty God to avenge the blood of the prophets upon this nation, and that you will teach the same to your children and to your children’s children unto the third and fourth generation.”

This was interpreted to mean by some that “if he had ever met any of those who had taken a hand in that massacre he would undoubtedly have attempted to avenge the blood of the martyrs.”

And seriously, you should study up on Young’s teaching of blood atonement.

And let us not forget your temple oaths to slit your own throat and disembowel yourself.

And you should apologize for your slanderous remarks against me…typical Mormon response that it is, devoid of any knowledge of your own history.

 

[flyonthewall]

flyonthewall, here is a portion of the former content of your temple ceremony…

“You and each of you do covenant and promise that you will pray and never cease to pray to Almighty God to avenge the blood of the prophets upon this nation, and that you will teach the same to your children and to your children’s children unto the third and fourth generation.”

This has never been a part of anything in the LDS church as long as I have been a member, and even if it was, vengence is mine saith the Lord…correct? Even if what you have posted, was a part, it says nothing about the LDS church taking vengence, rather it leaves vengence in the hand of the Lord.

This was interpreted to mean by some that “if he had ever met any of those who had taken a hand in that massacre he would undoubtedly have attempted to avenge the blood of the martyrs.”

That is your assertion. I can make outlandish assertions about your church withtout any evidence too…but I do not.

And seriously, you should study up on Young’s teaching of blood atonement.

I have read what he has said, and I have read a lot more of his teachings than you have. You should study up more about things before you make ignorant or false statements about them

And let us not forget your temple oaths to slit your own throat and disembowel yourself.

While I will not comment on alleged temple content, just taking your statement above, exactly how threatening and militant is a vow to give up one’s own life? Has there been no one of your faith that has given up their own life for their belief? Yet somehow it is sinister for LDS? Pot…kettle.

And you should apologize for your slanderous remarks against me…typical Mormon response that it is, devoid of any knowledge of your own history.

My comments were not slanderous but corrective.
It is typical for antis to fabricate things about our beliefs and then accuse us of not knowing our own history if we do not subscribe to their fabrications.

 

[RebeccaJ]

This has never been a part of anything in the LDS church as long as I have been a member, and even if it was, vengence is mine saith the Lord…correct? Even if what you have posted, was a part, it says nothing about the LDS church taking vengence, rather it leaves vengence in the hand of the Lord.

That is your assertion. I can make outlandish assertions about your church withtout any evidence too…but I do not.

flyonthewall, I’ve studied mormon history, both as a mormon and after I left. If you haven’t done the same then really, why are you making statements about things you’ve never heard of? This oath was a reality, every Mormon who went through the endowment made this oath, until 1920 when it was removed.

I have read what he has said, and I have read a lot more of his teachings than you have. You should study up more about things before you make ignorant or false statements about them

I think it obvious from statements of “I’ve never heard of this” that you have not studied so well. Or more likely kept to “safe” sources.

While I will not comment on alleged temple content, just taking your statement above, exactly how threatening and militant is a vow to give up one’s own life? Has there been no one of your faith that has given up their own life for their belief? Yet somehow it is sinister for LDS? Pot…kettle.

I know of no Catholic who has taken a oath to kill themselves. Suicide is a mortal sin that is discouraged.

My comments were not slanderous but corrective.

It is typical for antis to fabricate things about our beliefs and then accuse us of not knowing our own history if we do not subscribe to their fabrications.

Such silliness. You can’t discuss your own history without getting your panties in a wad. Have a good day flyonthewall.

 

[flyonthewall]

flyonthewall, I’ve studied mormon history, both as a mormon and after I left. If you haven’t done the same then really, why are you making statements about things you’ve never heard of? This oath was a reality, every Mormon who went through the endowment made this oath, until 1920 when it was removed.

According to who? Official temple content is not available for anyone to view, unless one goes through. And the only way to get temple content availabel to the public is by fraud. Did you go through before 1920? If not, then what you have is the say so of people who have committed fraud or have a bone to pick with the church. Either way, I would not put them as reliable sources.
So all you have to go on is the say so of people who want to tear down my faith with any means possible, even made up ones. Again, empty claims.

I think it obvious from statements of “I’ve never heard of this” that you have not studied so well. Or more likely kept to “safe” sources.

Or you have your information from seedy sources. Should I go to anti-Catholic sources to find out the “true” history and beliefs of the Catholic church?

I know of no Catholic who has taken a oath to kill themselves. Suicide is a mortal sin that is discouraged.

I can tell you there have been NO oaths to kill one’s self anywhere. For you to continue to say there is or was is ignorance on your part, or worse.

Such silliness. You can’t discuss your own history without getting your panties in a wad. Have a good day flyonthewall.

I can discuss my own history very well, it is fabrications that I am not well versed on, and rightly so as they are not true.

And good day to you too RebeccaJ

 

[RebeccaJ]

According to who? Official temple content is not available for anyone to view, unless one goes through. And the only way to get temple content availabel to the public is by fraud. Did you go through before 1920? If not, then what you have is the say so of people who have committed fraud or have a bone to pick with the church. Either way, I would not put them as reliable sources.
So all you have to go on is the say so of people who want to tear down my faith with any means possible, even made up ones. Again, empty claims.

Maybe you should get together with Dianaiad and discuss the validity of temple content on the web. She claims it is, you say it is not. Let us know what y’all decide.

Or you have your information from seedy sources. Should I go to anti-Catholic sources to find out the “true” history and beliefs of the Catholic church?

I can tell you there have been NO oaths to kill one’s self anywhere. For you to continue to say there is or was is ignorance on your part, or worse.

So says the person who doesn’t know their own history. What is the point of this line of thinking…I really don’t know.

How would you know what your former temple content is, since you won’t discuss it. I’d suggest you ask any Mormon who went through your endowment before 1990, but then, they wouldn’t discuss it with you anyway.

So there you are, you won’t believe people’s experience unless they are Mormon, and Mormons won’t talk about their experience. An impasse for you I’m afraid.

Me, I’m not afraid to ask or read. And yes flyonthewall, the blood oath to take one’s own life was part of the Mormon endowment until 1990.

Saying it didn’t happen does not make it unhappen.

I can discuss my own history very well, it is fabrications that I am not well versed on, and rightly so as they are not true.

And good day to you too RebeccaJ

Seems you can only seriously discuss mormon history if the person you are having a discussion with agrees with your POV. Lecturing is not discussion.

 

[LongJourney]

Thanks, Rebecca.

 

[RebeccaJ]

Thanks, Rebecca.

 

[Pahoran]

There are many things short of murder that people do out of bigotry. Have you ever taken a look at the suicide rate by state? suicide.org/suicide-statistics.html#2005 Although the statistics vary from year to year, the states which have the higher concentration of LDS tend to be at the top of the list.

That’s not true. What is true is that the stats tend to follow guns-per-capita trends; the Rocky Mountain states have the highest suicide rates, while Utah is consistently below its neighbours.

Question: how does Utah differ from its neighbours, LJ?

I will pass on the other questions.

Mormon Constitutionalism has more to do with how Mormons interpret the constitution than how the Supreme Court interprets it.

They are no longer bothering me because I moved to Wisconsin, and a very loving and tolerant town that generally understands what I have been through. Have you ever read about the Strangites?

Yes. I believe there’s about four of them left.

Rebecca, just FYI: Latter-day Saints of good character are not going to be drawn into any discussion of anything that purports to be a detailed excerpt from a Temple ceremony; and anti-Mormons of good character, if such there be, are not going to try to draw us into such a discussion.

That’s one of the ways we are able to tell when are critics are discussing matters in good faith.

Regards,
Pahoran

 

[Todd520]

I read the stats very differently.
It looks dangerous to be in a low population density state, or to be a white male over 65, with a handgun. Maybe MT needs a handgun ban on white Seniors

Have you ever taken a look at the suicide rate by state? suicide.org/suicide-statistics.html#2005 Although the statistics vary from year to year, the states which have the higher concentration of LDS tend to be at the top of the list.

ps, Wisconson is nice people