Tell me what you think of this chapter in the Book of Mormon

[Publisher]

I think they lost me when I heard the story about Jesus coming to America to convert the Indians.

As opposed to Mary being assumed bodily into heaven…she remained ever virgin…she appears to children and such in various apparitions?

The claim of the Mormons are no more fantastic…IMO…than the claims of the Catholics.

 

[tomarin]

Then you have a problem, because the claims of Mormonism and that of “historic Christianity” do not contradict, if by “historic Christianity” you mean what the first Christians believed; but if by that you mean the claims of Christianity of three or four hundred years later, then that also does not agree with the claims of the earliest Christianity (or the Bible) either.

Are you saying the earliest Christians believed what the LDS Church teaches today? That is very hard for me to believe, sir. Is there any evidence for such an extraordinary claim?

Take Trinitarian theology for example; there is no trace of that found in the Bible or in what the earliest Christians believed.

It doesn’t spell it out in explicit terms but you certainly have all three persons of the trinity making an appearance in the Bible.

By the way, I’m sorry if you were offended by my references to JW’s earlier. I shall cease and desist.

 

[zerinus]

And you know what bro, you don’t have to think. All one needs to do is read the news. Pretty regular we witness splits of cults from this belief with some charismatic leader who drives the car off the cliff. Last night ID TV had a case of a Mormon who split and turned serial killer with others following. He killed then prayed to Christ? Five murders, five life sentences for him and his brother.

So are you suggesting that there have been no Catholics who have turned serial killers?

How do you think those who followed him are doing today?

Which followers? Why don’t you tell us who you are referring to so we know what you are talking about?

 

[GaryTaylor]

We also have the Bible; what does that say? I think all that it says is that some books are true and some are false. But it doesn’t say which is which. You have to go down other routs to find that out.

Then we have the Bible. Thanks be to God …BTW. What part do you think is false? I believe it all, Giants, Samsom, David and Goliath, Sodom and Gomorrah, all of it, hook line and sinker.

I understand clearly learned behavior. You well could be taught anything as a child and you will live that teaching. At least until some point of being open minded enough, the Truth sets in. Life has a way of doing that.

Lets face it I’m sure Nazi’s believed what they learned as children as well as VooDoo and everything else you could think of. I listened to a Yale Professor of Theology speak on VooDoo and I assure you he was 100% convinced of its authenticy and facinated by it. I was more facinated that he was facinated, than in what he was saying.

 

[zerinus]

Are you saying the earliest Christians believed what the LDS Church teaches today?

In essence yes.

That is very hard for me to believe, sir. Is there any evidence for such an extraordinary claim?

Yes, the evidence for it is in the Bible.

It doesn’t spell it out in explicit terms but you certainly have all three persons of the trinity making an appearance in the Bible.

Which Mormonism has no problems with.

By the way, I’m sorry if you were offended by my references to JW’s earlier. I shall cease and desist.

Thank you!

 

[zerinus]

Then we have the Bible. Thanks be to God …BTW. What part do you think is false? I believe it all, Giants, Samsom, David and Goliath, Sodom and Gomorrah, all of it, hook line and sinker.

We believe all of that too.

 

[tomarin]

Yes, the evidence for it is in the Bible.

So if that’s true and say the Apostle Paul subscribed to these LDS beliefs, then his epistles should be chock full of LDS teachings. Yet I’m not aware of any?

 

[GaryTaylor]

So are you suggesting that there have been no Catholics who have turned serial killers?

Which followers? Why don’t you tell us who you are referring to so we know what you are talking about?

I’m not suggesting anything. The news speaks for itself. I watch nothing but reality nor do I read fiction. And I did explain it above. Research it you’ll find it. Two Mormon brothers. The “Universal Church of God” they started, Sound familiar?

And no I can’t think of any Catholics starting ther own religion recently?

 

[Patrick_Joshua]

Originally Posted by zerinus
Then you have a problem, because the claims of Mormonism and that of “historic Christianity” do not contradict, if by “historic Christianity” you mean what the first Christians believed; but if by that you mean the claims of Christianity of three or four hundred years later, then that also does not agree with the claims of the earliest Christianity (or the Bible) either.

but if by that you mean the claims of Christianity of three or four hundred years later, then that also does not agree with the claims of the earliest Christianity (or the Bible) either.

I’ll reference some writings before three of four hundred years later.

Take Trinitarian theology for example; there is no trace of that found in the Bible or in what the earliest Christians believed.

The Didache:
“After the foregoing instructions, baptize in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, in living [running] water. . . . If you have neither, pour water three times on the head, in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit” (Didache 7:1 [A.D. 70]).

Ignatius of Antioch:
“[T]o the Church at Ephesus in Asia . . . chosen through true suffering by the will of the Father in Jesus Christ our God” (Letter to the Ephesians 1 [A.D. 110]).

“For our God, Jesus Christ, was conceived by Mary in accord with God’s plan: of the seed of David, it is true, but also of the Holy Spirit” (ibid., 18:2).

Justin Martyr:
“We will prove that we worship him reasonably; for we have learned that he is the Son of the true God himself, that he holds a second place, and the Spirit of prophecy a third. For this they accuse us of madness, saying that we attribute to a crucified man a place second to the unchangeable and eternal God, the Creator of all things; but they are ignorant of the mystery which lies therein” (First Apology 13:5–6 [A.D. 151]).

Theophilus of Antioch
“It is the attribute of God, of the most high and almighty and of the living God, not only to be everywhere, but also to see and hear all; for he can in no way be contained in a place. . . . The three days before the luminaries were created are types of the Trinity: God, his Word, and his Wisdom” (To Autolycus 2:15 [A.D. 181]).

But if you dont believe all them.

You gotta believe this man, the beloved of Paddy’s green shamrock shore!

Sechnall of Ireland:
“Hymns, with Revelation and the Psalms of God [Patrick] sings, and does expound the same for the edifying of God’s people. This law he holds in the Trinity of the sacred Name and teaches one being in three persons” (Hymn in Praise of St. Patrick 22 [A.D. 444]).
Patrick of Ireland
I bind to myself today the strong power of an invocation of the Trinity—the faith of the Trinity in unity, the Creator of the universe" (The Breastplate of St. Patrick 1 [A.D. 447]).

I could reference alot more writings but I dont want to make the post to long.

You can also witness what Christians believe in the first century not also by writings but by the world itself for example the Roman Catacombs, provide evidence what Christians believed in the first century and guess what its Catholic Teaching what a suprise.

 

[GaryTaylor]

We believe all of that too.

We’ll whats False?

 

[BartBurk]

Are you saying the earliest Christians believed what the LDS Church teaches today? That is very hard for me to believe, sir. Is there any evidence for such an extraordinary claim?

It doesn’t spell it out in explicit terms but you certainly have all three persons of the trinity making an appearance in the Bible.

By the way, I’m sorry if you were offended by my references to JW’s earlier. I shall cease and desist.

Of course the Mormons definitely believe in the Father, Son and Holy Ghost as one God though they have an understanding which is different than traditional Christianity. I don’t think their understanding is all that different until they claim the Father also had a Father, etc. And some Mormons don’t believe in that, but from what I have seen the average Mormon does. I would rather they repented and just said they believed in the Father, Son and Holy Ghost, but I’m not a Mormon anymore. If they would accept what the Book of Mormon teaches on that subject they would be better off. The Book of Mormon really doesn’t have very many teachings that are very controversial. The only ones that really might be controversial to a Catholic is the rejection of infant baptism, and their understanding of original sin which is closer to the Eastern Orthodox tradition than the Western tradition. They don’t really deny original sin – they just think Christ took care of it for everyone when he died on the cross which is what the Book of Mormon asserts.

I really do think a dialog with Mormons using the Book of Mormon would move them closer to traditional Biblical Christianity. Joseph Smith once said the following:

“The fundamental principles of our religion are the testimony of the Apostles and Prophets, concerning Jesus Christ, that He died, was buried, and rose again the third day, and ascended into heaven; and all other things which pertain to our religion are only appendages to it. But in connection with these, we believe in the gift of the Holy Ghost, the power of faith, the enjoyment of the spiritual gifts according to the will of God, the restoration of the house of Israel, and the final triumph of truth.”

I think if we take into consideration that quote we will find that we have much more in common with our Mormon friends than we might expect. I don’t think you would find much in the Apostle’s Creed with which a Mormon would disagree. Having said all of this I do believe our Mormon friends would find more truth in the Catholic Church than they do in the Mormon Church – that’s why I converted to Catholicism from Mormonism.

 

[zerinus]

We’ll whats False?

Nothing!

 

[GaryTaylor]

Nothing!

So what day could we pick you up for Mass?

 

[zerinus]

So what day could we pick you up for Mass?

On the day you accept the Book of Mormon!

 

[Patrick_Joshua]

zerinus, you ignoring me?
Us Irish hate to be ignored.

I referenced some early letters from early Christians that believed in Trinity yet you claimed

claims of Christianity of three or four hundred years later, then that also does not agree with the claims of the earliest Christianity (or the Bible) either.

Take Trinitarian theology for example; there is no trace of that found in the Bible or in what the earliest Christians believed.

The Didache:
“After the foregoing instructions, baptize in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, in living [running] water. . . . If you have neither, pour water three times on the head, in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit” (Didache 7:1 [A.D. 70]).

Ignatius of Antioch:
“[T]o the Church at Ephesus in Asia . . . chosen through true suffering by the will of the Father in Jesus Christ our God” (Letter to the Ephesians 1 [A.D. 110]).

“For our God, Jesus Christ, was conceived by Mary in accord with God’s plan: of the seed of David, it is true, but also of the Holy Spirit” (ibid., 18:2).

Justin Martyr:
“We will prove that we worship him reasonably; for we have learned that he is the Son of the true God himself, that he holds a second place, and the Spirit of prophecy a third. For this they accuse us of madness, saying that we attribute to a crucified man a place second to the unchangeable and eternal God, the Creator of all things; but they are ignorant of the mystery which lies therein” (First Apology 13:5–6 [A.D. 151]).

Theophilus of Antioch
“It is the attribute of God, of the most high and almighty and of the living God, not only to be everywhere, but also to see and hear all; for he can in no way be contained in a place. . . . The three days before the luminaries were created are types of the Trinity: God, his Word, and his Wisdom” (To Autolycus 2:15 [A.D. 181]).

I believe you have failed at the first hurdle.

How early you wanting it?

I believe St.Ignatius of Antioch was a student of the Apostle John yet he totally believed in the One Trinitarian God.

St.Ignatius of Antioch was among the Apostolic Fathers, was the third Bishop and Patriarch of Antioch, and was a student of John the Apostle. En route to his martyrdom in Rome, Ignatius wrote a series of letters which have been preserved as an example of very early Christian theology. Important topics addressed in these letters include ecclesiology, the sacraments, and the role of bishops.

 

[JHow]

For those who are having trouble figuring out which class of heresies Mormonism falls into, check out Gnosticism…

You reminded me of Paul Johnson’s “History of Christianity”. The LDS church gets about two pages in there, and his bottom line is the same as yours “Gnosticism”. I don’t have the book at hand, or I’d pull the full quote.

 

[JHow]

We’ll whats False?

It’s not that LDS think anything IN the Bible is false per se…You have to ask about all the things they think the CATHOLIC CHURCH left out, things that are found in their teachings elsewhere, such as the pre-existence of Archangel Michael / Adam, and your own spirit pre-existence as well. You didn’t ask the right question.

 

[zerinus]

I’ll reference some writings before three of four hundred years later.

The Didache:
“After the foregoing instructions, baptize in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, in living [running] water. . . . If you have neither, pour water three times on the head, in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit” (Didache 7:1 [A.D. 70]).

We have no problem with baptism in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost; but the “sprinkling” bit is not biblical.

Ignatius of Antioch:
“[T]o the Church at Ephesus in Asia . . . chosen through true suffering by the will of the Father in Jesus Christ our God” (Letter to the Ephesians 1 [A.D. 110]).

We have no problem with that.

“For our God, Jesus Christ, was conceived by Mary in accord with God’s plan: of the seed of David, it is true, but also of the Holy Spirit” (ibid., 18:2).

No problem with that either.

Justin Martyr:
“We will prove that we worship him reasonably; for we have learned that he is the Son of the true God himself, that he holds a second place, and the Spirit of prophecy a third. For this they accuse us of madness, saying that we attribute to a crucified man a place second to the unchangeable and eternal God, the Creator of all things; but they are ignorant of the mystery which lies therein” (First Apology 13:5–6 [A.D. 151]).

Nothing wrong with that either. Mormons are in agreement with that statement.

Theophilus of Antioch
"It is the attribute of God, of the most high and almighty and of the living God, not only to be everywhere, but also to see and hear all; for he can in no way be contained in a place. . . .

Well, we think He can be “contained in a place,” while at the same time being omniscient, and know everything.

The three days before the luminaries were created are types of the Trinity: God, his Word, and his Wisdom" (To Autolycus 2:15 [A.D. 181]).

I don’t see a theological justification for that belief.

 

[BartBurk]

We have no problem with baptism in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost; but the “sprinkling” bit is not biblical.

We have no problem with that.

No problem with that either.

Nothing wrong with that either. Mormons are in agreement with that statement.

Well, we think He can be “contained in a place,” while at the same time being omniscient, and know everything.

I don’t see a theological justification for that belief.

Do you believe that Jesus was ever less than God? Did he progress from a non-God to a God?

 

[zerinus]

Do you believe that Jesus was ever less than God? Did he progress from a non-God to a God?

The Book of Mormon teaches that He was eternally God, and that is what I Go by.