Temporal Punishment

[peeteyg]

I am having an engaging conversation with my Protestant Best friend on Temporal Punishment. It hit him pretty hard since it is new to him. He thinks I am some kinda Jehovahs withness or something now. I need scriptural examples and biblical examples of Temporal Punishment. This is not a conversation about indulgences only punishment after forgiveness of sin. I am not an expert in this area but I text him feverishly and need some good info for him. He has moved on works and free will. He is a sola scriptura baptist so bible examples are pretty good. Thanks in advance.

 

[Trishie]

“Do not gloat over me, my enemy: though I have fallen, I shall rise; though I live in darkness, God is my light.** I must suffer the anger of God, for I have sinned against Him, until He takes up my cause and rights my wrongs**; He will bring me out into the light and I shall rejoice to see the rightness of His ways.” [Micah 7:8-9]

I’ll see what other scriptures I can find that indicate temporal punishment due to sins, rather than immediate removal of consequences/punishment.

“Correct us, Lord, gently…or You will reduce us to nothing.” [Jeremiah 16:32] You have plunged me to the bottom of the Pit, to its darkest, deepest place, weighed down by your anger, drowned by Your waves…But I am here calling for Your help, praying to You every morning: why do You reject me? Why do You hide Your face from me? …Now I am exhausted.” [Psalm 88:6-7, 13-15]

“As by your will you first strayed away from God, so now turn back and search for Him ten times as hard…so will He rescue you and give you eternal joy.” [Baruch 4:21, 4:28]

I have to dash, but if I think of any more such scriptures…I’ll post them later.

God bless you!

 

[Trishie]

From the Catechism of the Catholic Church

The punishments of sin

1472 To understand this doctrine and practice of the Church, it is necessary to understand that sin has a double consequence. Grave sin deprives us of communion with God and therefore makes us incapable of eternal life, the privation of which is called the “eternal punishment” of sin. On the other hand every sin, even venial, entails an unhealthy attachment to creatures, which must be purified either here on earth, or after death in the state called Purgatory. This purification frees one from what is called the “temporal punishment” of sin. These two punishments must not be conceived of as a kind of vengeance inflicted by God from without, but as following from the very nature of sin. A conversion which proceeds from a fervent charity can attain the complete purification of the sinner in such a way that no punishment would remain.83

1473 The forgiveness of sin and restoration of communion with God entail the remission of the eternal punishment of sin, but temporal punishment of sin remains. While patiently bearing sufferings and trials of all kinds and, when the day comes, serenely facing death, the Christian must strive to accept this temporal punishment of sin as a grace. He should strive by works of mercy and charity, as well as by prayer and the various practices of penance, to put off completely the “old man” and to put on the "new man."84

 

[Trishie]

Simple example.
Someone steasl something. He repents and asks God’s forgiveness.
But he is left with consequences, temporal 'punishment.
He has to make restitution

 

[LilyM]

The strongest example is the episode concerning King David after his adultery with Bathsheba. Contained in 2 Samuel chapters 11 and 12. Note in a startling parallel of confession how David fasts and prays for forgiveness, but does not dare to presume on God forgiving him. Instead it requires the prophet Nathan to TELL him ‘for your part, God has forgiven your sin’. What follows this forgiveness? Temporal consequences - the child conceived of their adultery dies.

One other immediately comes to mind - Moses being prohibited from entering the Promised Land, either due to his own sin of rash words (Numbers 20:12) or as punishment for Israel’s sins, since he was their leader (Deuteronomy 1:37)

Besides these, there are many scriptural references to God visiting the sins of the wicked upon their descendants. Regardless of whether those descendants are guilty of any sin at all - they nonetheless suffer temporal consequences.

 

[St_Francis]

One very tricky aspect of this is that the Protestants translate “penance” as “repentance.” (Seriously–I could not find one instance of the use of the word penance in several Protestant translations of the Bible!) If you run a search between the Douay Rheims and the Protestant bibles, you will see the difference.

St Luke 13:5 No, I say to you; but except you do penance, you shall all likewise perish.

Bible Gateway
Luke 13:5
NIV: I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish.
KJV: I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.
NKJV: I tell you, no; but unless you repent you will all likewise perish.

And so on… but you can see that there is a difference between mere repenting and actually performing penance, and the difference this could make to someone’s salvation.

 

[MarcoPolo]

Here’s also an excerpt from Jimmy Akin’s article A Primer on Indulgences:**Principle 2: Punishments are both temporal and eternal.

The Bible indicates some punishments are eternal, lasting forever, but others are temporal, lasting only a time. Eternal punishment is mentioned in Daniel 12:2: “And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life and some to shame and everlasting contempt.” [See also Matthew 25:41, 2 Thessalonians 1:9, and Revelation 14:11].

We normally focus on the eternal penalties of sin, because they are the most important, but Scripture indicates temporal penalties are real and go back to the first sin humans committed: "To the woman he said, `I will greatly multiply your pain in childbearing; in pain you shall bring forth children, yet your desire shall be for your husband, and he shall rule over you.’

“And to Adam he said, `Because you have listened to the voice of your wife and have eaten of the tree of which I commanded you, “You shall not eat of it,” cursed is the ground because of you; in toil you shall eat of it all the days of your life; thorns and thistles it shall bring forth to you, and you shall eat the plants of the field. In the sweat of your face you shall eat bread till you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken; you are dust, and to dust you shall return’” (Gen. 3:16-19). [Scripture is filled with other examples of God sending temporal punishments on account of sin. See, for example, Genesis 4:9-12, Deuteronomy 28:58-61, and Isaiah 10:16]. **

 

[Trebor135]

Are there examples akin to the incident involving the death of David’s child conceived by adultery found in the New Testament?

This is anticipating the question: “If Christ died for our sins, why make the distinction between eternal and temporal punishments at all? Such a difference makes sense under the Old covenant, but does it hold water under the New Covenant?”

 

[Byzman]

Are there examples akin to the incident involving the death of David’s child conceived by adultery found in the New Testament?

This is anticipating the question: “If Christ died for our sins, why make the distinction between eternal and temporal punishments at all? Such a difference makes sense under the Old covenant, but does it hold water under the New Covenant?”

Doesn’t make sense…explain how there is no temporal consequnces for sin now?

 

[Joe_Kelley]

Doesn’t make sense…explain how there is no temporal consequnces for sin now?

Note

0 Now there was a disciple at Damascus named Ananias. The Lord said to him in a vision, “Ananias.” And he said, “Here I am, Lord.” 11 And the Lord said to him, “Rise and go to the street called Straight, and inquire in the house of Judas for a man of Tarsus named Saul; for behold, he is praying, 12 and he has seen a man named Ananias come in and lay his hands on him so that he might regain his sight.” 13 But Ananias answered, “Lord, I have heard from many about this man, how much evil he has done to thy saints at Jerusalem; 14 and here he has authority from the chief priests to bind all who call upon thy name.” 15 But the Lord said to him, “Go, for he is a chosen instrument of mine to carry my name before the Gentiles and kings and the sons of Israel; 16 for I will show him how much he must suffer for the sake of my name.”

Acts 9:10-15

It is not clear-cut, but it seems possible that some of Saint Paul’s sufferings were in reparation for the damage he had done.

 

[Byzman]

Note Acts 9:10-15

It is not clear-cut, but it seems possible that some of Saint Paul’s sufferings were in reparation for the damage he had done.

No…I agree…I wrote my response in my previous post incorrectly. I wanted him to explain how there is no temporal punishment for sin,

 

[Carlan]

Thanks,all good quotes from Scripture.

Temporal punishment due to sin, whose guilt has already been paid for by Jesus, Catholics believe is a grace from God to help us to become better Christians by purification so as to achieve the holiness needed to enter into the joy of heaven.

Happy the pure in heart, they shall see God.
peace, Carlan

 

[rben20]

I’ll give you a simple analogy.

When you were a child you learned that stealing was bad. If you took something out of the store by accident your mom or dad would tell you to put it back. Now maybe one day you decide to take it home anyway. When your mom or dad finds out you stole it they get mad at you. They forgive your action but expect you to return the stolen item and will usually spank you or teach you a lesson somehow so that you never steal again.

All of these temporal punishments, though painful, are merciful. Without discipline and punishment from God, we would continue in our ways, remain unrepentant, and then suffer the eternal consequences of doing so. A father who does not discipline his children is a bad father who is setting up his child for greater troubles down the road. God, though, is a good Father.

 

[Bohm_Bawerk]

But given the fact that everyone here has argued that temporal punishment (i.e. suffering) comes from God due to the wickedness of our ways, would this not subscribe to the Protestant belief of “prosperity gospel”? That is, that the less we sin, the more we prosper, and the more we sin, the more we incur punishment from the LORD?

It’s important to note that the reason why suffering occurs is a very big question indeed. We can not really look to the Old Testament (sometimes called the “Classical view of suffering”) because they generally believed that suffering was brought about by the wrath of God. This would probably explain why God seems incredibly angry in certain passages in the Old Testament.

From the examples that everyone has provided, all it demonstrates is a simple case of cause-and-effect. Whatever we do has a consequence. This consequence however does not always have to come about by some divine arbiter. It could simply come about by the simple laws of nature (for instance, those who are gluttonous will have a higher chance of getting high-blood pressure). The Catechism for instance implies that a murderer who genuinely confesses his sin with God will be forgiven, but that does not mean that the murderer will escape the legal system when he is caught.

Thank you,
Eugen von Böhm-Bawerk

 

[Byzman]

But given the fact that everyone here has argued that temporal punishment (i.e. suffering) comes from God due to the wickedness of our ways, would this not subscribe to the Protestant belief of “prosperity gospel”? That is, that the less we sin, the more we prosper, and the more we sin, the more we incur punishment from the LORD?

It’s important to note that the reason why suffering occurs is a very big question indeed. We can not really look to the Old Testament (sometimes called the “Classical view of suffering”) because they generally believed that suffering was brought about by the wrath of God. This would probably explain why God seems incredibly angry in certain passages in the Old Testament.

From the examples that everyone has provided, all it demonstrates is a simple case of cause-and-effect. Whatever we do has a consequence. This consequence however does not always have to come about by some divine arbiter. It could simply come about by the simple laws of nature (for instance, those who are gluttonous will have a higher chance of getting high-blood pressure). The Catechism for instance implies that a murderer who genuinely confesses his sin with God will be forgiven, but that does not mean that the murderer will escape the legal system when he is caught.

Thank you,
Eugen von Böhm-Bawerk

The common mistake of what many people think is that this punishment comes from God. We all must understand first that the punishment comes from the very nature of sin, not from God. The nature of sin has a two-fold consequence. These consequnces come from us sinning. The choices we make for ourselves is what we personally have attached to ourselves.

 

[Carlan]

From the examples that everyone has provided, all it demonstrates is a simple case of cause-and-effect. Whatever we do has a consequence. This consequence however does not always have to come about by some divine arbiter. It could simply come about by the simple laws of nature (for instance, those who are gluttonous will have a higher chance of getting high-blood pressure). *The Catechism for instance implies that a murderer who genuinely confesses his sin with God will be forgiven, but that does not mean that the murderer will escape the legal system when he is caught.*Thank you,
Eugen von Böhm-Bawerk

Yes Bohm B, but where do you suppose natural law comes from if not from God?
Your last quote is a good example of temporal punishment. peace, Carlan.

 

[fide]

I am having an engaging conversation with my Protestant Best friend on Temporal Punishment. It hit him pretty hard since it is new to him. He thinks I am some kinda Jehovahs withness or something now. I need scriptural examples and biblical examples of Temporal Punishment. This is not a conversation about indulgences only punishment after forgiveness of sin. I am not an expert in this area but I text him feverishly and need some good info for him. He has moved on works and free will. He is a sola scriptura baptist so bible examples are pretty good. Thanks in advance.

You might try reasoning with him, too. Consider this: if Christ has paid the “sin-debt” for you, and now no punishment is due to you at all, why will you die? Death is (temporal) punishment for sin. One who believes and remains in Christ will not die the eternal death of hell - but he will still “pay” the temporal punishment for his sin as seen in the obvious punishment of physical death.

When Christ died for you, He did not die “instead of” you - you will still die. When Christ suffered for you, He did not suffer “instead of” you - you will still suffer, and because of sin.

 

[Trebor135]

Doesn’t make sense…explain how there is no temporal consequnces for sin now?

Does the New Testament teach that Christ paid only for the guilt due to us for sins, rather than the consequences of those sins? Paul tells us that, since we’ve been forgiven, we now have peace with Christ.

I’m still trying to wrap my head around the distinction between eternal and temporal punishments–and thus purgatory.

As I recall, James White (bear with me for a second–I understand he’s not so popular 'round these parts) pointed out something interesting in a debate with Robert Sungenis. The Catholic view of purgatory (and by extention temporal punishment) does not seem to encompass God’s “discipline” which “teaches” his followers, as spoken of by Paul, but has a legal character to it. We need to “pay off our debt”–not only relating to (the temporal punishments for) mortal sins already forgiven, but also for venial sins themselves.

If temporal punishment is intended to “teach”, what are you supposed to learn in purgatory when you’re already dead?

Purgatory makes sense to me as “that place in between earth and heaven where you are made completely pure” since nothing unclean is allowed into heaven. (Though this brings up the infused-versus-imputed-righteousness debate, but that one’s for another thread. That question is another source of bafflement for me.) If James White (and I) understands purgatory correctly, it’s not clear why debt-repayment is required.

 

[Byzman]

Does the New Testament teach that Christ paid only for the guilt due to us for sins, rather than the consequences of those sins? Paul tells us that, since we’ve been forgiven, we now have peace with Christ.

I’m still trying to wrap my head around the distinction between eternal and temporal punishments–and thus purgatory.

As I recall, James White (bear with me for a second–I understand he’s not so popular 'round these parts) pointed out something interesting in a debate with Robert Sungenis. The Catholic view of purgatory (and by extention temporal punishment) does not seem to encompass God’s “discipline” which “teaches” his followers, as spoken of by Paul, but has a legal character to it. We need to “pay off our debt”–not only relating to (the temporal punishments for) mortal sins already forgiven, but also for venial sins themselves.

If temporal punishment is intended to “teach”, what are you supposed to learn in purgatory when you’re already dead?

Purgatory makes sense to me as “that place in between earth and heaven where you are made completely pure” since nothing unclean is allowed into heaven. (Though this brings up the infused-versus-imputed-righteousness debate, but that one’s for another thread. That question is another source of bafflement for me.) If James White (and I) understands purgatory correctly, it’s not clear why debt-repayment is required.

First of all, I would like to say that if you want a true knowledge of Catholic teaching you should go to the source(meaning someone of that tradition) and not someone who is looking at it from the outside(someone very biased as James White is). Now they are very many different theologies in the Catholic Church as to the nature of Purgatory. I, as a Byzantine Catholic, hear of it differently than that of the Roman Church. Two different backgrounds with the same belief of purgation in this life and after. With explaining Purgatory than comes, because of different theologies, the manys ways of explaining it.

With regards to your first question…St. Thomas Aquinas actually sees it the way that is asked in your question. He says that Christ took our guilt along with our punishment(Eternal and Temporal) to the cross, since the debt of punishment is associated with it guilt. He goes on to say that this removal of guilt and punishment takes place in man at his baptism, since we suffer and die to Christ. It is what comes after our Baptism that satisfaction for our sins, if any take place after Baptism, is needed. This satisfaction for our sins is by our co-operation in Christ’s suffering.

In regards to discipline seen as teaching, I see no problem with this in the doctrine of Purgatory, because our Purgatory takes place here on Earth too, even before our death.

 

[catholic1seeks]

Ooooh! I call dibbs on this passage from the NEW TESTAMENT:

1 CORINTHIANS 11:27-32

Therefore, whosoever shall eat this bread, or drink the chalice of the Lord unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and of the blood of the Lord. But let a man prove himself: and so let him eat of that bread and drink of the chalice. For he that eats and drinks unworthily eats and drinks judgment to himself, not discerning the body of the Lord. Therefore are there many infirm and weak among you: and many sleep. But if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged. But whilst we are judged, we are chastised by the Lord, that we be not condemned with this world.​

Notice

1. THE SIN: Unworthy reception of the Eucharist
2. THE PUNISHMENTS: People who have unworthily received the Lord at his supper are said to be suffering: many are “infirm and weak: and many sleep [die]”
3. PURPOSE OF TEMPEROL PUNISHMENT: Notice the last verse says that some aren’t condemned along with the world, but they are indeed chastised.